Future career prospects for pilots

Schwarzenegger

hello,

I am considering flying as a career, but I have some questions that some experienced pilots might be able to answer ?

1/ when will be the next "hiring boom" of pilots- with the older pilots being made to retire, when do you think the next "hiring boom" will be?
2/Future salary of a pilot?
3/will computers take over?
4/ will a BA degree be a wise thing to get as a backup?
5/ anything else?

I would greatly appreciate some feedback

cppilot98

1. Never. Never was, never will. Flying schools perpetuate the myth of a pilot shortage. Which will only occur when the job is so unattractive that no one wants to be a pilot. Which point brings me to:

2. There's downward pressure on salaries. That won't change soon.

3. They already are to the detriment of basic flying skills in pilots. Air France 447, Colgan Air etc.

4. Depends on the BA. A lot are useless, fit only to get you a job in a call centre. But college is a good idea and airlines like to see that on a CV.

5. By all means train to be a pilot. But always have a fallback plan.

FridaysWell

Schwarzenegger wrote: »

hello,

I am considering flying as a career, but I have some questions that some experienced pilots might be able to answer ?

1/ when will be the next "hiring boom" of pilots- with the older pilots being made to retire, when do you think the next "hiring boom" will be?
2/Future salary of a pilot?
3/will computers take over?
4/ will a BA degree be a wise thing to get as a backup?
5/ anything else?

I would greatly appreciate some feedback

Firstly I apologise as I am not an experienced pilot, but I can try to provide an answer to 1 and 4.

Q1. In the US, ca. 50% of pilots are over 50 years old. Chinese, Asian and parts of African aviation are growing considerably year on year - this is creating an increased need for pilots. Some Asian airlines and other companies looking for pilots are quite strict in their requirements when seeking pilots and would actively select European and American pilots vs. others in some cases. So over the next 10 to 15 years, there will be an increased demand for pilots. Look at many specialist aviation recruitment companies here in Ireland - business is booming, albeit for ore experienced pilots. Airlines etc., need pilots, but they want them ready to go. The majority don't want to take on the burden of training pilots; the demand is still there.

Q2. If you are able study for a degree of your choice while still training to become a pilot, do it. There is nothing wrong with gaining a good education if you are able to do so; it can lead you into a decent paying job where you would be able to fund your training quicker, while also providing a very good back-up career. It's always healthy to have another interest apart from flying, and another qualification also. So to cut it short, of course it's wise!

But if this is not possible, then pursue your goal of becoming a pilot, while gaining some work experience, through a part time job for example. A good recommendation in that regard is to maybe try gain a part time job in an aviation related field if you can; airport customer service, ground handing agent, airport search unit, aviation company admin etc.

I hope the above helped, I am sure there will be more helpful replies from more experienced pilots/posters. In my limited experience in the industry so far, I think its best to keep a level head, and to balance your passion for flying/aviation with logical and pragmatic decisions; always keep an eye out for other fields/related industries also - a holistic view of the world is better than a narrow one.

smurfjed

So over the next 10 to 15 years, there will be an increased demand for pilots. Look at many specialist aviation recruitment companies here in Ireland - business is booming, albeit for ore experienced pilots. Airlines etc., need pilots, but they want them ready to go. The majority don't want to take on the burden of training pilots; the demand is still there.

Thats the important part, lots of Ryanair guys can be found all over the world, but it's getting that first job that is a b..ch....

Does anyone know where LEFTBASE ended up???

Xpro

smurfjed wrote: »

Does anyone know where LEFTBASE ended up???

Nail on the head:D ( and XWB, and Mr.Suits, and whatever he calls him self )

I think he's still here, never left. And his style never changed. Mr. Know All:rolleyes:

smurfjed

So he was a walter mitty????

cppilot98

Leftbase turned out to be a pay to fly Airbus pilot. Maybe he got a real job.

Schwarzenegger

FridaysWell wrote: »

Firstly I apologise as I am not an experienced pilot, but I can try to provide an answer to 1 and 4.

Q1. In the US, ca. 50% of pilots are over 50 years old. Chinese, Asian and parts of African aviation are growing considerably year on year - this is creating an increased need for pilots. Some Asian airlines and other companies looking for pilots are quite strict in their requirements when seeking pilots and would actively select European and American pilots vs. others in some cases. So over the next 10 to 15 years, there will be an increased demand for pilots. Look at many specialist aviation recruitment companies here in Ireland - business is booming, albeit for ore experienced pilots. Airlines etc., need pilots, but they want them ready to go. The majority don't want to take on the burden of training pilots; the demand is still there.

Q2. If you are able study for a degree of your choice while still training to become a pilot, do it. There is nothing wrong with gaining a good education if you are able to do so; it can lead you into a decent paying job where you would be able to fund your training quicker, while also providing a very good back-up career. It's always healthy to have another interest apart from flying, and another qualification also. So to cut it short, of course it's wise!

But if this is not possible, then pursue your goal of becoming a pilot, while gaining some work experience, through a part time job for example. A good recommendation in that regard is to maybe try gain a part time job in an aviation related field if you can; airport customer service, ground handing agent, airport search unit, aviation company admin etc.

I hope the above helped, I am sure there will be more helpful replies from more experienced pilots/posters. In my limited experience in the industry so far, I think its best to keep a level head, and to balance your passion for flying/aviation with logical and pragmatic decisions; always keep an eye out for other fields/related industries also - a holistic view of the world is better than a narrow one.

Thank you for the response. I am leaning toward piloting, but the price tag might push me away. A full time job with part time modular flight training would also be an option perhaps. Also what do ye think of this mornings air accident? Tragedy

amen

Instead of a BA would a B.Sc /B.Eng not be more appropriate ?

basill

Instead of a BA would a B.Sc /B.Eng not be more appropriate ?

I think law, medicine or accountancy would offer far far better opportunities. With a transferable skill and a much higher average salary you can do a ppl and have a lovely aircraft at home on your farm strip full of whatever gadgets your budget will allow. You will never be worried about losing a medical or caring if your employer is going to go bust or furlough you. If you want a pay rise you knock on your bosses door and ask rather than put your faith in a union to represent your best interests. You also will more than likely be home for important dates and get the holidays you want. "Peak" summer leave in April anyone?

Typically aviation works on a 6 year cycle. The last big up cycle was 06/07 when airlines were falling over themselves hiring anyone with a pulse out of flying school or TRTO with a 320 or 737 rating. Then the big crash and now things are about as good as they can get. By the time the average wannabe raises the cash and starts a 1-1.5 year training programme the cycle will be due to turn to custard again.

Growler!!!

smurfjed wrote: »

So he was a walter mitty????

I always thought he was from the start:D

smurfjed

Leftbase turned out to be a pay to fly Airbus pilot

I was seriously interested in knowing where his career path took him after the 500 hrs.... Guess that I'm too naive

1123heavy

You simply cannot be careful enough in this industry. Be VERY VERY careful with who you give your money to, make sure the school is recognised and has at least a few reputable partner airlines. NEVER PAY UP FRONT. Do not go modular, that route is dead and airlines are increasingly expressing a desire to train their own cadets or source low hour pilots from recognised FTO's. By all means go modular if you want, however expect to become a flight instructor if you're lucky ! Ryanair do take modular guys but they are extremely picky and have contracts running with CAE and give their cadets a preference to get assessed over everyone else. There are many modular guys who have heard nothing since their initial application from FR, and they won't.

I have spoken to countless pilots and other people in the airline industry (Irish mostly and some UK airline staff). There are thousands of CPL/IR license holders out there. They're training all over Europe and they will all have the same qualification. However the vast majority are useless to airlines. They've either received second rate training, have poor handling skills in the sim assessment or are simply not cut out to be pilots (i.e they do not possess the human factors). Many people think getting the license is what matters, sure they're all the same so what's wrong with modular ? The piece of paper may be the same, but the quality of pilot is certainly not for the most part. The airlines care very little about the license once you have it, they want the quality that most modular guys just don't possess (both sound "stick & rudder" as well as the human factors). This is not me saying this, get in touch with any pilot who has some insight into recruitment and you will hear the exact same stuff. If you want proof, have a look at nearly every airline out there. All the reputable ones are running their own cadet programmes not cos they feel like giving something to society, but because it's the only way to guarantee the future pilot body of the airline maintains the same high standards as today's. Modular was a legitimate option 10 + years ago, not today I'm afraid. Having said that, that does not mean all integrated schools are good. There are more cowboys out there than there are reputable ones, again be VERY careful. You cannot change where you train and trust me when I say some airlines (an Irish one in particular) have certain schools blacklisted I mean it, the CV will get chucked straight in the bin because of it.

Lastly, do not expect to get rich doing this, if you're in it for the cash then look for something else because you will end up hating life (just take a look at the miserable gits over on PPrune !).

For those that are genuinely suited to it this is the career of a lifetime. You will love almost every minute of it (those 3:30 am wake ups probably being the exception !). However as I was once told, "aviation is the most regulated industry in the world, but the training side of it is wild !". You simply have to have your eyes wide open going into this, yes be positive and look on the bright side of life. However never ever lose sight of the negatives of flight training and the risks associated with it, because they will bite you very very hard if you're not !

martinsvi

1123heavy, that's a very grim picture you've painted, anyone else care to pitch in on this? basically I suppose it's going back to the good ol' battle Modular VS Integrated? What are the schools you would recommend for integrated I wonder? I'm sure we can also talk about ones to be avoided? As long as it's "served" as a personal opinion, not a claim or a fact...

smurfjed

1123Heavy, are you offering that as a personal opinion or a statement of fact? I had noticed that you were attending the EL Cadet interviews lately.

Xpro

1123heavy wrote: »

Do not go modular, that route is dead and airlines are increasingly expressing a desire to train their own cadets or source low hour pilots from recognised FTO's. By all means go modular if you want, however expect to become a flight instructor if you're lucky ! Ryanair do take modular guys but they are extremely picky and have contracts running with CAE and give their cadets a preference to get assessed over everyone else. There are many modular guys who have heard nothing since their initial application from FR, and they won't.

You need to open your eyes pal. Not sure whos book did you read

At least 10 last students that went trough Simtech and got jobs were modular students.

Not only Ryanair, but Stobart, Cityjet, Easy, Norwegian,etc.

Just remember, being an integrated doesn't make you a better pilot. It just means you're the one that had more money.
They all went thought same examiner, and both have the same licence.

Lustrum

I can back up what Xpro says, I'm one of those modular guys!

My advice would be, do whatever course suits you. If you have the cash and feel OAA or FTE is the best option for you, then by all means go for it. Similarly, if you want to keep working or do it (generally) cheaper, then find a modular course that suits. Just remember, unless you're on an airline sponsored cadetship, you are not guaranteed a job no matter what you choose to do. So from that end, work hard, take every opportunity you can to meet pilots, ask them questions, keep in touch with them, and hope that someday your hard work and a bit of luck gets you the job you want.

Best of luck, hopefully it will be worth it!

1123heavy

Xpro wrote: »

Just remember, being an integrated doesn't make you a better pilot. It just means you're the one that had more money.
They all went thought same examiner, and both have the same licence.

There are many bogus integrated schools out there offering second rate training, I didn't say integrated guaranteed you to be a good pilot.

With regards to the same license part, while the licenses are the same anyone in the know will tell you that more often than not the quality of pilot is not the same. I have spoken extensively to pilots in the airline business that I've met as a result of my current education path, I know one quite personally (who used to be an interviewer at his former airline) and I've picked his brains on many occasions. It turns out a very large number of people that have undergone pilot training are not competent pilots irrespective of their license (that's the easy bit !). Airlines want someone that has the whole package from high standard CRM skills with a responsible, mature and professional attitude accompanied with top quality "stick and rudder" skills. It is in his experience that the majority of people who trained modular or went to second rate integrated schools with the wrong attitude of "all I need is the license" simply do not possess the "full package" that the airlines want.
You can dispute this until the cows home, but take a look at how many thousands of licensed fatpl holders are twiddling their thumbs unable to find jobs yet airlines are going through the hassle of setting up their own cadet pilot programmes. British Airways are willing to secure loans of up to £100,000 for 100 cadets this year to oversee the training of their own pilots at quality schools. Aer Lingus recently invested 75000 euro per person for 12 cadets to train at an approved school as well as many airlines over Europe now overseeing the training of their own cadets. This isn't because recruitment departments have nothing better to do, it's simply because the quality they need is rarely found in cadets who went modular at your bog standard school or someone who went to an integrated school that were simply after their cash and didn't bother running a proper selection procedure to pick out those who will make quality pilots. As well as that, many people who also go to the top schools also don't get jobs because they thought they would simply be entitled to a job upon graduation and haven't ended up being the pilots airlines look for.

Make fun of my post by all means, but the current way the training side of things has gone only serves to support the above argument.

You need to open your eyes pal. Not sure whos book did you read

I've read no book, rather I'm quite serious about this and rather than blindly forking out eye watering amounts of money I've decided to actually try and understand why so many allegedly perfectly good pilots have gone by the wayside and are realistically never gonna get jobs. The answer I got from multiple sources turned out to be obvious when you look at the trend airlines have set in recent years.

At least 10 last students that went trough Simtech and got jobs were modular students

Not only Ryanair, but Stobart, Cityjet, Easy, Norwegian,etc.

Considering EasyJet (as they say on their very own website) do not take low hour pilots from anywhere other than CTC or OAA having paid for their own A320 TR, I highly doubt any modular student got a place in EasyJet having done anything at Simtech.

Ryanair have very high standards, the guy I actually know is from there and the quality of some people you get in who have gone modular and thought the license was all you needed is depressing apparently.

I would not put any amount of money to train as a pilot in the hope that I could get a place with Ryanair or stobart or the handful of carriers that take modular or random cpl/ir holders from across the continent. The chances of getting hired are extremely low you would be foolish to, the number of those who have found jobs having trained outside of the OAA/FTE/CTC bubble is extremely low compared to those that haven't, I wouldn't be putting a penny down on that route anyway.

Xpro

Nobody is making fun of your post.

I can just tell you and you can take it any way you want.

Whether you get a job or not is down to a particular individual, perseverance and willing to go untill you run out of breath. ( and a bit of luck along the way will help too)

It's not all about the school's just so you know. I'm long enough in the aviation circle and things are quite obvious, and not just they way you read things on pprune or other internet sites.

Aviation is a very small world, yet it appears so big!

1123heavy

As I stated, everything I said about training has been gotten from current professional airline pilots, one is a member of my local airfield who I have come across and spoken to in great detail, the other who used to be involved in his airline's recruitment is studying the same course as me and I have spoken about this very stuff with him. Both said the exact same thing about the quality of training being hit and miss in this day and age, the license is worthless if you can't fly to an airline's standard for your dinner.

It's not all about the school's just so you know

The school is not the be all and end all but it should be top priority. It is vital that you receive the correct instruction from early on in your career as you can pick up bad habits that stay with you for life, not all instructors are the same. I have been told by people who did their PPL at what they thought were good schools, only to go to places like FTE and have to unlearn everything they did previously to reset the correct foundations, on cpl/ir scale this could be the end of your career before its even started.

As for PPrune, at what stage did I ever mention getting stuff from there I repeat, I have been told this by people within airlines, and I can see I have not been lied to because airline's behaviour is continuously reflecting what I have been told about selecting low hour pilots.

cppilot98

"It turns out a very large number of people that have undergone pilot training are not competent pilots irrespective of their license (that's the easy bit !). Airlines want someone that has the whole package from high standard CRM skills with a responsible, mature and professional attitude accompanied with top quality "stick and rudder" skills."

1123, you are 100% right on that point. That's been my experience. You are wrong however in thinking that integrated courses are the only way to achieve that standard. You are right that good basic training is vital but it's also not the end of it. From my own experience I know that I had terrible early training. This was corrected when I flew with an Instructor who knew her job. She retrained me as she did many others. In fact her reputation is stellar. Guess what? She was modular too and is now a training Captain in a certain airline.

Meanwhile in my own recent experience, I have a number of friends who have made the transition to airlines. None of them went through the integrated course. One in particular turned up at the operation I am connected to. He impressed straight away with his attitude and knowledge. I remember saying to the boss that if he could fly as well as he came across we had found our next pilot. He could and we did. These days he flies for Flybe and his career is on an upward trajectory.

Sure integrated is nice and ideal, particularly with OAA or FTE. It doesn't make you a good pilot. I've flown with various pilots over the years. I find you are either comfortable with them or not. The school they went to never enters the conversation. It's the person that counts.

1123heavy

cppilot98 wrote: »

You are wrong however in thinking that integrated courses are the only way to achieve that standard.

I never claimed integrated courses are the only way. It is possible to get good modular training, but reputable modular schools are few and far between and the risk isn't worth it.

pepe the prawn

1123heavy wrote: »

I never claimed integrated courses are the only way. It is possible to get good modular training, but reputable modular schools are few and far between and the risk isn't worth it.

Many established schools offer both integrated and modular.

cppilot98

1123heavy wrote: »

I never claimed integrated courses are the only way. It is possible to get good modular training, but reputable modular schools are few and far between and the risk isn't worth it.

You are wrong in my experience. When I say experience I mean very recent.

You have to remember that not everyone can afford the upfront fees of an integrated course. In the real world airlines recruit people who meet their requirements, modular or integrated.

It's not so black and white.

1123heavy

cppilot98 wrote: »

You are wrong in my experience. When I say experience I mean very recent.

You have to remember that not everyone can afford the upfront fees of an integrated course. In the real world airlines recruit people who meet their requirements, modular or integrated.

It's not so black and white.

You're pushing the modular idea despite it clearly not being the favoured method of training by many airlines. I know of no reputable integrated school that asks for up front fees. In the real world someone who has just graduated as a 200 hr modular student is faced with very limited opportunities and many do not find anything for a few years at least. All this while CTC cadets are put in a hold pool placed in airlines within a few months. The same goes for their OAA counterparts and FTE grads too (though some would argue FTE haven't the best of placement records). It may not be the most welcoming news but it's the reality, CTC, FTE and OAA have nearly every UK and Irish airline sewn up, from BA to Monarch to Thomas Cook to Virgin, Aer Lingus, Ryanair (see CAE), Easyjet and many more. When BA need extra cadets they give CTC a call and the guys are sent over, same for easyJet, Monarch and Thomas Cook. At what point in recent times have these airlines gone searching for modular cpl/ir holders considering "In the real world airlines recruit people who meet their requirements, modular or integrated. " ?

If you are trying to say that in 2015 someone who graduates from a modular school has the same chances of getting hired as someone who comes out of CTC or OAA then you're lying to the many hopefuls who may come here for help.

P.S. before you start saying I'm a supporter of integrated or whatever else, I am not. In an ideal world, if I was given the choice I would go modular. I like the idea of being able to enjoy the training and do all sorts of local flights around the area. But the reality of today is that your chances of employment are greatly diminished by going down the modular route.

cppilot98

I'm not pushing anything. I'm not lying. The reality is that I can name five or six individuals from my personal experience who fail to fulfil your stated requirements. That's this or last year now, not some vague distant past. Which isn't to say that certain airlines have certain prejudices in terms of their requirements.

I really don't care if you believe me or not. All I know is that having worked in the business for quite a few years now. I know how the system works.

Clearly you have been told something else.

But let me give you some examples.

A. Went to America, got qualified, flew skydivers for a bit, quit and got into Ryanair.

B. Intructor with PTC, got Ryanair

C. Skydive pilot, Skybus, Flybe

D. Survey pilot, Skybus.

E. Instructor, Ryanair.

Do I need to say more?

I can agree that certain flight schools are an advantage for certain airlines. But to say that's the be all and end all is wrong.

cppilot98

Look in the real world, if one of my sons decided he wanted to be a pilot, despite my constant beatings and steering towards a proper career and assuming I had the money. I would point towards a integrated course. But in the meantime I would make sure they had the basic flying skills. I owe them that. But of course most people don't have a pilot for a Father. So they have no choice. Training full time for any job is the best option.

Xpro

1123heavy wrote: »

You're pushing the modular idea despite it clearly not being the favoured method of training by many airlines. I know of no reputable integrated school that asks for up front fees. In the real world someone who has just graduated as a 200 hr modular student is faced with very limited opportunities and many do not find anything for a few years at least. All this while CTC cadets are put in a hold pool placed in airlines within a few months. The same goes for their OAA counterparts and FTE grads too (though some would argue FTE haven't the best of placement records). It may not be the most welcoming news but it's the reality, CTC, FTE and OAA have nearly every UK and Irish airline sewn up, from BA to Monarch to Thomas Cook to Virgin, Aer Lingus, Ryanair (see CAE), Easyjet and many more. When BA need extra cadets they give CTC a call and the guys are sent over, same for easyJet, Monarch and Thomas Cook. At what point in recent times have these airlines gone searching for modular cpl/ir holders considering "In the real world airlines recruit people who meet their requirements, modular or integrated" ?

If you are trying to say that in 2015 someone who graduates from a modular school has the same chances of getting hired as someone who comes out of CTC or OAA then you're lying to the many hopefuls who may come here for help.

P.S. before you start saying I'm a supporter of integrated or whatever else, I am not. In an ideal world, if I was given the choice I would go modular. I like the idea of being able to enjoy the training and do all sorts of local flights around the area. But the reality of today is that your chances of employment are greatly diminished by going down the modular route.

Well they did!
Aerlingus ran Direct entry scheme a while back. A guess what? Some were modular students too that got in!

You are starting to sound like the old PTC preaching. Fto fto Fto!

I see many of the integrated guys that finished their training, infact that's a lie. They are nowhere to be seen. They are at home siting for jobs to come up, as that's what they were tought, same what you think. Do an integrated course and you'll be step ahead of other lads, you'll be wanted by airlines.

Yet I'm seeing modular guys constantly hanging around airfields, doing various jobs, para ops, working on ramps, safety pilots, etc,etc, and they seem to be getting into airlines. How's that?

Do you not see what I'm trying to tell you? You are going to fork out 100€ k to have a privilege to say that you trained with Oxford or Jerez, and I can tell you this is not going to help you.

It's you as a person that will make yourself stand out!

Good luck anyways, this is becoming a never ending debate. I wish you all the best in you career!

1123heavy

I said in recent times, from what I remember Aer Lingus hired very few direct entry pilots about 3 years ago to supplement their cadet intake. Nothing has happened since and it doesn't look like things will be changing anytime soon. It would be foolish in my opinion to train clinging onto the very small chance of being able to find a job skydiving or whatever else. Notice how none of the guys you mentioned got straight into an airline and I have no doubt they could all mention a whole load of people who are yet to find anything. Yet I know someone who graduated from OAA last March and by October every single one of his class of 20+ was placed in airline. CTC have a similar placement record. You will simply not be able to say the same for anyone gone modular.

Most big airlines are now running cadetships of their own so I just think it would be foolish to go and train on your own.


And as far for the "PTC FTO preaching", notice I said to never pay up front on my first post ! I went to their open evening and ran a mile.

cppilot98

Not getting personal about it or attacking you but you come across as someone who has no real knowledge of how it all works in the real world. Do you actually fly at all or even hang out with real pilots, not online?

Sure in an ideal world all pilots would train the integrated way. But for most it's out of reach financially and despite what you say most airlines do not offer cadetships but those who do still expect you to pay for your training. Others offer a form of mentored training which you pay for but with no guarantee of a job.

But that doesn't work for everyone. So many go down the modular route of necessity.

Your dismissal of my list of success stories is quite revealing. Yes none of them got directly into the airlines. No they got other flying jobs first which they enjoyed because they love flying and as a consequence gained experience which made them more attractive to airlines. You seem to think there's something wrong with flying aircraft other than shiny jets while wearing a cool uniform.

As for story of OAA 'placing' their graduates with airlines. Do they place pilots? I doubt it. Those guys trained as pilots not chefs so of course they got flying jobs probably by their own efforts. I wonder how many got Ryanair who are always recruiting pilots with the money to pay for a TR.

You are wrong that integrated or cadetships are the only way to get into an airline. Anyone who has any experience in the business knows this. Don't take my word for it. Ask some real world pilots. Don't rely on PPruNe.

1123heavy

cppilot98 wrote: »

Not getting personal about it or attacking you but you come across as someone who has no real knowledge of how it all works in the real world. Do you actually fly at all or even hang out with real pilots, not online?

Sure in an ideal world all pilots would train the integrated way. But for most it's out of reach financially and despite what you say most airlines do not offer cadetships but those who do still expect you to pay for your training. Others offer a form of mentored training which you pay for but with no guarantee of a job.

But that doesn't work for everyone. So many go down the modular route of necessity.

Your dismissal of my list of success stories is quite revealing. Yes none of them got directly into the airlines. No they got other flying jobs first which they enjoyed because they love flying and as a consequence gained experience which made them more attractive to airlines. You seem to think there's something wrong with flying aircraft other than shiny jets while wearing a cool uniform.

As for story of OAA 'placing' their graduates with airlines. Do they place pilots? I doubt it. Those guys trained as pilots not chefs so of course they got flying jobs probably by their own efforts. I wonder how many got Ryanair who are always recruiting pilots with the money to pay for a TR.

You are wrong that integrated or cadetships are the only way to get into an airline. Anyone who has any experience in the business knows this. Don't take my word for it. Ask some real world pilots. Don't rely on PPruNe.

I haven't even read your post other than the first few lines. You're right, this is all from PPrune and I have no knowledge of aircraft other than what they look like, I can even tell the difference between white and green ones would you believe !

To those searching here for info, go modular. Just do not come back here looking for info on who's hiring or end up blaming everyone else when Ryanair don't take you, Flybe are satisfied with their wings cadets that are training right now and Aer Lingus open up their cadetship which you can't apply to.

By the way, I'd love if you could tell me where I said "integrated or cadetships are the only way to get into an airline", your last post and that line in particular only show you to be one for twisting words. Did you even bother to read what I actually said ?

Xpro

1123heavy wrote: »

By the way, I'd love if you could tell me where I said "integrated or cadetships are the only way to get into an airline", your last post and that line in particular only show you to be one for twisting words. Did you even bother to read what I actually said ?

here you go, your first post!

Do not go modular, that route is dead and airlines are increasingly expressing a desire to train their own cadets or source low hour pilots from recognised FTO's

You clearly said it here and you dismissed a modular training altogether and you are giving someone your advice based on what experience?
Please give us some verifiable credentials, other then I know John, he knows Peter, Alan said this...blah blah blah
Just because you spoke to a captain or whatever you have summed up your opinion based on what he says?

You sound like a disgruntled kid with totally wrong attitude, definately not what a wannabe pilot should be. I would hate to fly with you. Over confidence and stubbornness , do not go well in the career.


Again your take vs integrated How do you know what method is preferred by airlines? Have you individually spoken to every airline out there?
Give us one example other then saying someone else said!

You're pushing the modular idea despite it clearly not being the favoured method of training by many airlines

And here again, yes as you say in the real world airlines only want integrated!
Do you work for HR? Whats a real world for you?

In the real world airlines recruit people who meet their requirements, modular or integrated.? "

I dont mean to offend, but this is how you come across here:

You certainly sound like one of those kids that went (or going) integrated and now you're trying to justify all the money you are spending and picking at the modular training and coming out with statements that are laughable.

Some people here are long time in the industry and you are telling them how it is out there, "in the real world" Like , who are you?

Please take some advice onboard, there are people posting here from there own experiences and some are already working in the airline industry. So its not all pub talk, but you seem to have your own inmature take on everything thats said.

You wont last long like that.
Remember what I said in first post: You only get one chance and one appearance.

You came here and already painted a pretty picture about your self, and you haven't even said anything constructive.

cppilot98

You say Flybe are are happy with their their wing cadets. I don't doubt that. Except that my friend who started there this year was accepted despite the terrible handicap of modular training and gaining his experience flying little planes.

But obviously you've made up your mind. Don't let me talk you out of it.

My experience going back many years is that the good pilots no matter what their training background will make it eventually. The not so good get found out and disappear.

The truth is that if airlines only relied on integrated graduates. The famous pilot shortage would arrive in force. There are simply not enough candidates with the money to pay for it.

martinsvi

on the top of all that I would like to know - "stick and rudder" skills were repeatedly mentioned, I do my training on a rather narrow, bumpy, slippery grass runway - obviously a club environment, thus modular would be fanciest way to describe it.. how come my stick and rudder skills are assumed worse than for someone who operates out of international airport with all the bells and whistles? The way I see it if my stick and rudder is not at it's tip top, I simply don't make it to/from the runway, where as worse thing that happens in Jeres is probably you miss a centre line on a 45m wide tarmac? Good rudder skills for me become a life or death instinct where as for the other guy it's something that they simply have to remember?

smurfjed

"stick and rudder" skills

In the airline world, are you still allowed to use these skills :):)

martinsvi

smurfjed wrote: »

In the airline world, are you still allowed to use these skills :):)

really? even after that one american airlines pilot broke off a rudder of his A300? :rolleyes:

smurfjed

american airlines pilot broke off a rudder of his A300?

Doing exactly what he was trained to do!

cppilot98

Badly trained apparently. The problem with stick and rudder skills is that they degrade without practice, assuming they were even there in the first place. I was on an Instructor's course where one guy was asked to describe how to climb. He said 'Pull back on the stick.' He'd just finished an integrated course.

AF447 and the Colgan Air crash prove he's not alone.

smurfjed

describe how to climb

Set new altitude in preselector, press FLCH/VNAV/VS.... what else do i need to know?

Badly trained apparently

Are you sure or was he just following manufacturers procedures?

In December of 1998, Airbus published an Airplane Upset Recovery Training Aid and included a letter that stated the manual was “part of an industry effort to reduce loss of control accidents and incidents” (Airplane Upset letter). The letter encouraged the user to “use this training aid to ensure your pilots participate in an effective airplane upset recovery training program.” In a section 2.6.2.3, titled “Use of Full Control Inputs,” the manual reads:
“Flight control forces become less effective when the airplane is at or near its critical angle of attack or stall. Therefore, pilots must be prepared to use full control authority, when necessary. The tendency is for pilots not to use full control authority because they rarely are required to do this. This habit must be overcome when recovering from severe upsets.”

cppilot98

Very good! My God didn't he fulfil it to the letter. Full rudder inputs. I take it back he followed his training perfectly. Pity it was wrong.

You know you are a sarky bstard. In a good way. Despite our previous tiff.

You can be too subtle for a forum like this. I actually thought you might be fake.

smurfjed

I actually thought you might be fake.

Who are you talking about?