Germanwings A320 Crash

Roquentin

i know the odds are low, but im seriously reticent about getting on a plane again or a train or a bus. this is the kind of thing that freaks you out

pfurey101

Feck!

I don't really want to say this but.....a small dark part of my little brain just doesn't trust the French and their Airbus Inc. And this is purely and (more likely irrationally) based on the airshow Air France Flight 296 from 1988.

This is where there was supposed to be a bit of messing with the FDR. It is said that the origional findings were was supposed to show a problem with fly-by-wire rather than pilot error. There was a full documentary on this years later.

I know that was a long time ago and could be conspracy candidate - but someone else also mentioned Airbus PR.

I hope the French do not end up as shoddy as the Malaysian generals were over MH370.

Probably irrational - apologies in advance to all.

FalconGirl

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Can someone please tell me how the Prosecutor knows definitively just from CVR -

- that the CP manually entered the flight level
- that the CP locked the door, and then relocked it within the override time frame.
- that the override on the door was five minutes
- that the CP was conscious if he wasn't communicating with anyone.

I'm curious, and I'm sure someone will be able to fill me in.

Also, this may be rumour, but I thought I read somewhere that a Mirage Jet was sent to have a look. If that happened, surely the pilot of that jet would have seen what the CP looked like, i.e. either awake or out of it. Of course I don't know if this happened at all. Does anyone know?

And furthermore, how could the investigation be so certain of all the facts just from CVR? The other black box is missing, which I think would show far more about this tragedy.

But anyway, that's just what I'm thinking. Thanks.

I'd be very surprised if the mirage jet got in a position to make an assessment of the state of the pilot on time. I'd be interested to find that out too.

SimonTemplar

This incident will obviously start an analysis of the cockpit access controls and the two person rule.

However, if a pilot is really determined to bring down the plane, he could attack and incapacitate his co-pilot in the actual cockpit itself. Things like pens and belts which are common in a cockpit can be lethal weapons if used suddenly.

So no matter what rules will be implemented and procedures tightened, it still boils down to two people alone in a confined space.

wdmfapq4zs83hv

If the pilot was intent on destroying the plane why didnt he just nose dive it & be done? It seems odd to put the plane into a controlled decent that lasted 8 minutes when he could have just ended it all very quickly. Ovbliously Im not a pilot so thats just my lay person view & a question that keeps bugging me. I also think it was irresponsible to publicy blame the pilot before the full investigation is complete. What if theyre wrong? Imagine having to explain that!

1123heavy

SimonTemplar wrote: »

So no matter what rules will be implemented and procedures tightened, it still boils down to two people alone in a confined space.

That is exactly it. You will NEVER be able to get rid of these types of events so long as mere mortals are in charge. The only way forward I feel is to do further extensive psychological research to try and detect the nutjobs. I've been for cadet pilot assessments and there is a huge emphasis on trying to look into people's personality's and all different types of psychometric examinations. There is however always room for improvement.

irishgeo

<SNIP>
Not relevant

Pinch Flat

Roquentin wrote: »

i know the odds are low, but im seriously reticent about getting on a plane again or a train or a bus. this is the kind of thing that freaks you out

As far as I know this is the first incident of it's type in Europe and one of a handful world wide. Extremely rare.

What's to say you wouldn't be walking down the road and have a bus career into you driven by a nutter or a plane fall in you from the sky? Probably a better chance of being hit by lightning

Roquentin

Pinch Flat wrote: »

As far as I know this is the first incident of it's type in Europe and one of a handful world wide. Extremely rare.

What's to say you wouldn't be walking down the road and have a bus career into you driven by a nutter or a plane fall in you from the sky? Probably a better chance of being hit by lightning

highly improbably but not impossible, but then again so is everything in life, except immortality

trishasaffron

Roquentin wrote: »

highly improbably but not impossible, but then again so is everything in life, except immortality

Is that a joke or did you mean mortality:o

basill

Potential triggers such as death, divorce, financial worries, fights and arguments all happen throughout our lives. Nut jobs are not necessarily born so your testing regime would be largely worthless.

Spanish Eyes

Not a time for such levity

tayto lover

Myla Worried Rattle wrote: »

If the pilot was intent on destroying the plane why didnt he just nose dive it & be done? It seems odd to put the plane into a controlled decent that lasted 8 minutes when he could have just ended it all very quickly. Ovbliously Im not a pilot so thats just my lay person view & a question that keeps bugging me. I also think it was irresponsible to publicy blame the pilot before the full investigation is complete. What if theyre wrong? Imagine having to explain that!

I'd say they know far more about it than they're saying.

1123heavy

basill wrote: »

Potential triggers such as death, divorce, financial worries, fights and arguments all happen throughout our lives. Nut jobs are not necessarily born so your testing regime would be largely worthless.

Try telling that to the people who have dedicated their lives at researching into how to detect negative signs when selecting pilots. People who have a divorce will eat too much, become lonely, lose their sense of humor etc etc They do NOT go and fly a plane into a mountainside taking 149 others with them ! There are ways of detecting how people react to certain circumstances through psychometric testing, as there is always room for improvement I have no doubt in my mind that some people somewhere will be looking into this.

honeybear

I thought it was unusual when early reports spoke about just one of the pilots. It made me wonder about the other pilot on board

irishgeo

- that the CP manually entered the flight level

The autopilot cant do it has to be in a human, they heard the pilot hand over control to the copilot, a chair moving back and the door opening. Therefore he was the only one in the cockpit tha t could have done it.

- that the CP locked the door, and then relocked it within the override time frame.

He doesnt need to lock the door, it does that itself when its closed. We cant confirm the 2nd part.

- that the override on the door was five minutes

it doesnt need to be 5 mins. It took theplane it 8 mins to go down. The pilot might have been in the toilet for 6 mins and another minute trying to get back in.

- that the CP was conscious if he wasn't communicating with anyone.

They can hear breathing on the CVR.

Also, this may be rumour, but I thought I read somewhere that a Mirage Jet was sent to have a look. If that happened, surely the pilot of that jet would have seen what the CP looked like, i.e. either awake or out of it. Of course I don't know if this happened at all. Does anyone know?

A jet was scrambled but didnt reach the plane before it crashed.

Pinch Flat

Roquentin wrote: »

highly improbably but not impossible, but then again so is everything in life, except immortality

Nothing's impossible - sure unless you wrap yourself in bubble wrap and live in a cave. But the again maybe earthquakes to consider

wdmfapq4zs83hv

One other thing I cant make sense of. They said there was silence in the cockpit, just breathing. I find it hard to believe he made absolutely no sound even at the end? You would think the startle effect would take over & if you see a mountain about to come through your window you would automatically let out a scream or even a gasp or something! Maybe he was unconcious. Breathing but unconcious. But I know that doesnt tally with the locking door etc. Just thinking out loud

paconnors

I'm no expert but as others have said to lock the doors they have a selector switch. Could they not replace this with a key. And when someone is leaving the cockpit they turn the key for access code entry and remove the key so it can't be overridden when one of them leave the cockpit. And only way in is to input a code from the outside. And when the key goes back in and turned. The door is locked and controlled from the cockpit.

keith16

Myla Worried Rattle wrote: »

One other thing I cant make sense of. They said there was silence in the cockpit, just breathing. I find it hard to believe he made absolutely no sound even at the end? You would think the startle effect would take over & if you see a mountain about to come through your window you would automatically let out a scream or even a gasp or something! Maybe he was unconcious. Breathing but unconcious. But I know that doesnt tally with the locking door etc. Just thinking out loud

It's chilling.....

Cianmcliam

Myla Worried Rattle wrote: »

One other thing I cant make sense of. They said there was silence in the cockpit, just breathing. I find it hard to believe he made absolutely no sound even at the end? You would think the startle effect would take over & if you see a mountain about to come through your window you would automatically let out a scream or even a gasp or something! Maybe he was unconcious. Breathing but unconcious. But I know that doesnt tally with the locking door etc. Just thinking out loud

From what they said today the plane made contact with the ground before the final impact so perhaps any gasps or shouts would be drowned out by the noise of the fuselage hitting the ground?

wdmfapq4zs83hv

Can we expect the VCR to be made public or does that happen?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Tenger

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Can someone please tell me how the Prosecutor knows definitively just from CVR -
- that the C/P manually entered the flight level
- that the C/P locked the door, and then relocked it within the override time frame.
- that the override on the door was five minutes
- that the C/P was conscious if he wasn't communicating with anyone.
-but I thought I read somewhere that a Mirage Jet was sent to have a look.

And furthermore, how could the investigation be so certain of all the facts just from CVR? The other black box is missing, which I think would show far more about this tragedy.

I'll try to clarify:
-Obviously they listened to the CVR, which recorded everything from taxi, take-off, climb and initial level off. They have the flight details and would be matching these to the conversation in the cockpit. I guess they heard the discussion about the Captain going outside at a certain point and that the descent to 6000 ft happened after this time.

-The door auto locks as it is closed, So it would be locked when the Capt shut it. It normally requires manual unlocking when the normal access code is inputed from outside. I will hazard a guess that the CVR picked up the 'open up' sound, with no sound of unlocking happening just after.
The exterior over-ride code then generates a distinctive alarm in the cockpit. If they heard this then they know that it was inputted. If the person in the cockpit rejected this over-ride attempt then the time-out happens.

-Im not sure if the 5 mins is Airbus standard or particular to LH/4U. But its not someting that they (the BEA) would be bluffing about.

-The investigators stated that they could hear breathing on the CVR.

-Apparently a jet was sent towards the area, no mention about it getting there in time.

Spanish Eyes

Tenger wrote: »

I'll try to clarify:
-Obviously they listened to the CVR, which recorded everything from taxi, take-off, climb and initial level off. They have the flight details and would be matching these to the conversation in the cockpit. I guess they heard the discussion about the Captain going outside at a certain point and that the descent to 6000 ft happened after this time.

-The door auto locks as it is closed, So it would be locked when the Capt shut it. It normally requires manual unlocking when the normal access code is inputed from outside. I will hazard a guess that the CVR picked up the 'open up' sound, with no sound of unlocking happening just after.
The exterior over-ride code then generates a distinctive alarm in the cockpit. If they heard this then they know that it was inputted. If the person in the cockpit rejected this over-ride attempt then the time-out happens.

-Im not sure if the 5 mins is Airbus standard or particular to LH/4U. But its not someting that they (the BEA) would be bluffing about.

-The investigators stated that they could hear breathing on the CVR.

-Apparently a jet was sent towards the area, no mention about it getting there in time.

Thanks for the informative reply there. Appreciated.

I, like others, still find it very odd that the CP didn't make a sound. Not a sound, over 8 minutes or so while descending to certain death. That is weird.

Although I suppose it's possible that his screams at the last minute were mingled with those of the passengers. How bloody awful.

highlydebased

Police in Germany saying they have made a discovery at First Officer's residence which may give a clue about what happened. not a suicide note.

JCX BXC

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Thanks for the informative reply there. Appreciated.

I, like others, still find it very odd that the CP didn't make a sound. Not a sound, over 8 minutes or so while descending to certain death. That is weird.

Although I suppose it's possible that his screams at the last minute were mingled with those of the passengers. How bloody awful.

It must be horrible to listen to. Really creepy and scary.

Mountainsandh

Cnn• quote

5:32 p.m. ET: Transponder data shows that the autopilot on Germanwings Flight 9525 was reprogrammed by someone in the cockpit to change the plane's altitude from 38,000 feet to 100 feet, according to Flightradar24, a website that tracks aviation data.

Spanish Eyes

Carnacalla wrote: »

It must be horrible to listen to. Really creepy and scary.

What a job it must be having to listen to that kind of stuff.

But I suppose they are professionally trained to deal with all that kind of thing.

Still...

JCX BXC

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Cnn• quote

5:32 p.m. ET: Transponder data shows that the autopilot on Germanwings Flight 9525 was reprogrammed by someone in the cockpit to change the plane's altitude from 38,000 feet to 100 feet, according to Flightradar24, a website that tracks aviation data.

That really confirms that it was Intentional.

JCX BXC

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

What a job it must be having to listen to that kind of stuff.

But I suppose they are professionally trained to deal with all that kind of thing.

Still...

The throught of "I am listening to people on this plane die" just makes me feel sorry for the people who have to do that Job.

Of course it wouldn't bother some people, they are doing it to save lives in the end.

Mountainsandh

Carnacalla wrote: »

That really confirms that it was Intentional.

Is it credible, that this info can be deducted from transponder ?

Mountainsandh

Carnacalla wrote: »

The throught of "I am listening to people on this plane die" just makes me feel sorry for the people who have to do that Job.

Of course it wouldn't bother some people, they are doing it to save lives in the end.

This would haunt me forever.

strandroad

highlydebased wrote: »

Police in Germany saying they have made a discovery at First Officer's residence which may give a clue about what happened. not a suicide note.

According to The Times, he was suspended from his training due to burnout/depression several years ago, but he came back to finish it when he recovered.

http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/CBD05gAWsAAlAwh.jpg

shamrock55

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Thanks for the informative reply there. Appreciated.

I, like others, still find it very odd that the CP didn't make a sound. Not a sound, over 8 minutes or so while descending to certain death. That is weird.

Although I suppose it's possible that his screams at the last minute were mingled with those of the passengers. How bloody awful.

Maybe he had his eyes closed the entire time, he never saw what was coming at him, he was almost in a medatitive state

christy c

Could anyone explain how the breathing was heard so clearly? Would noise in the cabin not have have drowned it out?

triggermortis

The CVR has 4 channels, 3 for radio and one for an area microphone, which picks up any sounds not transmitted through the aircrafts comms systems. This area mic will pick up the seat moving, door opening, closing etc

Spanish Eyes

christy c wrote: »

Could anyone explain how the breathing was heard so clearly? Would noise in the cabin not have have drowned it out?

Good question.

Which is answered above

Spanish Eyes

triggermortis wrote: »

The CVR has 4 channels, 3 for radio and one for an area microphone, which picks up any sounds not transmitted through the aircrafts comms systems. This area mic will pick up the seat moving, door opening, closing etc

But is it sensitive enough to pick up the pilot's breathing pattern?

triggermortis

yes

triggermortis

He may have also had a headset on with open mic, and the CVR would have recorded that as well

1123heavy

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germanwings-plane-crash-significant-discovery-5408556

I'm not one for the sensationalist papers that feed off people's grief, but anyone have any thoughts on this ?

mickdw

I strongly believe they know even more than they are saying given the strength of the comments today. Pilot must have said something that ruled out any doubt.

imurdaddy

Shocking stuff in the last 24hrs, I know the evidence is damming but people are analysing what could have happened to co pilot and grasping at straws because not a single one of us wants to believe a normal respected young man could fly 150 innocent men women and children to there deaths! Its shocking and so hard to digest!

I think if it was a structural failure or some other catastrophic incident that cause the crash, we all could accept it better, but the way it looks now is gut wrenching.

Rip all crew and passengers.

allthedoyles

1123heavy wrote: »

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germanwings-plane-crash-significant-discovery-5408556

I'm not one for the sensationalist papers that feed off people's grief, but anyone have any thoughts on this ?

The significant discovery is probably his medication which he may have left behind at home .

Would explain his out of character actions .

Tenger

1123heavy wrote: »

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germanwings-plane-crash-significant-discovery-5408556

I'm not one for the sensationalist papers that feed off people's grief, but anyone have any thoughts on this ?

Usual redtop muck, I see no mention of "the investigation is still ongoing".

"Lubitz, 28, deliberately crashed the ill-fated plane into the French Alps after locking himself in the cockpit, killing 150 people." when they could have stated "appears to have deliberately......"

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

fin12

cosanostra wrote: »

Apart from all the other issues this would create would you like a camera recording you at work and streaming it live? next they'd be wanting live streams going to the cops from every one driving a car!

Most people have cameras recording them at work so why not pilots, if there just sitting there doing their job whats the problem?

ProfessorPlum

OSI wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the dialling in of a lower altitude and accepting it would require more autonomy than a petit mal would allow. Besides, I've never known one to last 8 minutes.

And the door requires intervention for it not to be opened by the captain, again the CP would have to consciously inhibit the Pilots attempt to enter the cabin.

Dialing in a lower altitude is like putting one foot in front of the other for a pilot - it's completely automatic. 8 mins is a long time for an absence seizure - sure, maybe status epilepticus?
Perhaps the captain missed the 5 second window the emergency code allows, - that's why he couldn't get back in.
I don't know.
But you've missed my point entirely. I've given a reasonably plausible explanation that I've though up off the top of my head after a long days work. Does this guy and the rest of us - crews, passengers, the general public, not deserve a full and proper investigation before conclusions are drawn? Any investigation is now tainted with the 'definitive' knowledge that 'he did it'.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.