Germanwings A320 Crash

Pinch Flat

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Do we know what the rate of descent was?

I saw reference to 4000 ft/m

ProfessorPlum

ectoraige wrote: »

According to Planefinder, here is the data from the minutes leading up to the loss:



Of interest is the VSI reading showing a rate of climb of -14,400 fpm, timestamped 09:30:20 while at unchanged altitude of 38,000 feet. The plane is then shown to be descending 39 seconds later. It also seems to be time around the beginning of a left turn from ~43 to it's eventual 26.

That's such a big value you'd normally write it off as a sensor anomaly, today though, it looks more like one of the holes lining up in the proverbial swiss cheese.

For information, this chart shows the most recent reading first, so it should be read chronologically from bottom to top. The column marked mtime is a timestamp marked in seconds:

1427189229 = 09:27:09 Earliest reading
1427189420 = 09:30:20 Anomaly showing RoC -14,144
1427189459 = 09:30:59 First indication of the descent
1427189963 = 09:39:23 Final reading

Heading is the direction of travel, based on degrees, with 0 being north, 45 north east. You can see that in the period between the anomaly and the beginning of the descent the plane made a left turn from North-East to almost North-North-East. Note that heading will tend to vary a certain amount due both to wind, and in variances in the Earth's magnetic field. It shows the direction the nose was pointing, which isn't always the same as the direction the plane is travelling. There's nothing jumping out there indicating a spin.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Table posted by ectotaige earlier in the thread with the flight profile

smurfjed

5:32 p.m. ET: Transponder data shows that the autopilot on Germanwings Flight 9525 was reprogrammed by someone in the cockpit to change the plane's altitude from 38,000 feet to 100 feet, according to Flightradar24,

You cannot reprogram the transponder to show another altitude like that! Plus the transponder just reports it doesn't control.

I'm no expert but as others have said to lock the doors they have a selector switch. Could they not replace this with a key. And when someone is leaving the cockpit they turn the key for access code entry and remove the key so it can't be overridden when one of them leave the cockpit. And only way in is to input a code from the outside. And when the key goes back in and turned. The door is locked and controlled from the cockpit.

Then how do you stop someone from attacking the crewmember and taking the key? Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the door in the first place.

Can we expect the VCR to be made public or does that happen?

Out of respect to the families, the actual CVR recording wont be made public, but they will release the transcripts.

murphaph

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Thanks for the informative reply there. Appreciated.

I, like others, still find it very odd that the CP didn't make a sound. Not a sound, over 8 minutes or so while descending to certain death. That is weird.

Although I suppose it's possible that his screams at the last minute were mingled with those of the passengers. How bloody awful.

He just closed his eyes and shut the world out. You are talking about him like you expect him to behave like a normal person. When people kill themselves they generally don't scream do they?

seventeen sheep

Myla Worried Rattle wrote: »

If the pilot was intent on destroying the plane why didnt he just nose dive it & be done? It seems odd to put the plane into a controlled decent that lasted 8 minutes when he could have just ended it all very quickly

Maybe some misguided sense of humanity - he didn't want the passengers to know they were going to crash? I mean if you think about it, many people completely zone out on a flight - go for a nap, watch a movie, read a book, whatever. With a controlled descent, I'm guessing that most passengers didn't realise there was anything wrong until they saw the captain pounding on the door.

Mountainsandh

smurfjed wrote: »

You cannot reprogram the transponder to show another altitude like that! Plus the transponder just reports it doesn't control.
.

Autopilot was reprogrammed, not transponder.
They reckon transponder showed reprogramming of autopilot, so I'm asking if that is credible, that transponder might show that (as opposed to simply giving a snapshot of current situation at a given moment).

Mountainsandh

I like that the French authorities have not been pussyfooting around, like is often the case nowadays. Everything points to deliberate crashing of the aircraft, simple as, no need for bull$t. If further clues lead to a medical mishap explanation, that will also be clearly stated.
While it must be painful for the pilot's family to hear such news, it must be equally painful (imo worse) to be kept in the dark for dozens of passengers' families, often for long periods, because authorities are afraid to formulate a damming hypothesis.

Calina

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I like that the French authorities have not been pussyfooting around, like is often the case nowadays. Everything points to deliberate crashing of the aircraft, simple as, no need for bull$t. If further clues lead to a medical mishap explanation, that will also be clearly stated.
While it must be painful for the pilot's family to hear such news, it must be equally painful (imo worse) to be kept in the dark for dozens of passengers' families, often for long periods, because authorities are afraid to formulate a damming hypothesis.

I have a more nuanced view on this. I think on the day, the French authorities' response to events was exemplary. However, as far as yesterday's press conference with Brice Robin is concerned, I think their hands were forced by the NYTimes story. That shouldn't have happened because there's a lot more to run in terms of trying to understand why this crash happened.

Doing that sort of investigation under the constant eye of the press and under the constant pressure of the press does not necessarily result in the best investigation going. I was hoping that BEA would give an indication of what was on the CVR and then come out with a more detailed preliminary report in 2 or 3 months time.

Instead we now have the utterly hysterical and ignorant headlines about depression and suicide today, all of which will coincide to make people less likely to come forward about problems rather than more likely. Demonisation like this is not helpful. And the papers are not interested in informing you; they just want to shift papers.

I'm sorry for the French authorities and the German authorities because this makes their jobs significantly harder than it might have been.

fryup

ceadaoin. wrote: »

There has been an article linked on after hours where a person who knew him describes him as weird and that he took time out from his training to be treated for depression. Not sure how true the weird part is but it has been reported elsewhere that he took a break a few years ago.

i'm surprised that he was capable of becoming an airline pilot,,,since most people who suffer from depression have poor concentration and attention levels...surprised he passed the exams

Calina

fryup wrote: »

i'm surprised that he was capable of becoming an airline pilot,,,since most people who suffer from depression have poor concentration and attention levels...surprised he passed the exams

I am not sure this is true.

sjb25

Calina wrote: »

I have a more nuanced view on this. I think on the day, the French authorities' response to events was exemplary. However, as far as yesterday's press conference with Brice Robin is concerned, I think their hands were forced by the NYTimes story. That shouldn't have happened because there's a lot more to run in terms of trying to understand why this crash happened.

Doing that sort of investigation under the constant eye of the press and under the constant pressure of the press does not necessarily result in the best investigation going. I was hoping that BEA would give an indication of what was on the CVR and then come out with a more detailed preliminary report in 2 or 3 months time.

Instead we now have the utterly hysterical and ignorant headlines about depression and suicide today, all of which will coincide to make people less likely to come forward about problems rather than more likely. Demonisation like this is not helpful. And the papers are not interested in informing you; they just want to shift papers.

I'm sorry for the French authorities and the German authorities because this makes their jobs significantly harder than it might have been.

I agree with this view I think the should have not released the info yet (although I do believe it's correct no way they would say something like this not being fairly sure) they should let the media swivel and get on with the investigation all the hysteria going on now is stupid

Mountainsandh

Calina wrote: »

I have a more nuanced view on this. I think on the day, the French authorities' response to events was exemplary. However, as far as yesterday's press conference with Brice Robin is concerned, I think their hands were forced by the NYTimes story. That shouldn't have happened because there's a lot more to run in terms of trying to understand why this crash happened.

Doing that sort of investigation under the constant eye of the press and under the constant pressure of the press does not necessarily result in the best investigation going. I was hoping that BEA would give an indication of what was on the CVR and then come out with a more detailed preliminary report in 2 or 3 months time.

Instead we now have the utterly hysterical and ignorant headlines about depression and suicide today, all of which will coincide to make people less likely to come forward about problems rather than more likely. Demonisation like this is not helpful. And the papers are not interested in informing you; they just want to shift papers.

I'm sorry for the French authorities and the German authorities because this makes their jobs significantly harder than it might have been.

I agree they were forced into statements that are more blunt and hurried than they could have been. When dealing with the sensitive issue of mental health, wording is important. However, responsibility rests more with the press than the authorities as regards insensitive treatment of the situation.
Authorities withdrawing information because of the sensitive nature of the crime (I see this as a crime) would be a form of censorship, imo, and that is not something I would support.

Edit : I don't think the media storm can affect the integrity of the investigation, how ?

elastico

fin12 wrote: »

Most people have cameras recording them at work so why not pilots, if there just sitting there doing their job whats the problem?

What difference would a camera have made in this instance? It would be pretty boring viewing, captain leaves cockpit, pretty normal routine, the other guy adjusts a few buttons, then just sitting there again for 8 minutes maybe some noise from the captain trying to bust the door down.

strandroad

sjb25 wrote: »

I agree with this view I think the should have not released the info yet (although I do believe it's correct no way they would say something like this not being fairly sure) they should let the media swivel and get on with the investigation all the hysteria going on now is stupid

They probably wanted to eliminate terrorism and technical fault speculation as early as they could.

Penny Tration

fryup wrote: »

i'm surprised that he was capable of becoming an airline pilot,,,since most people who suffer from depression have poor concentration and attention levels...surprised he passed the exams

Jaysus. I managed 540 points in my leaving cert, a good degree, and hold down a good job, as well as doing further education, and I have severe mental health issues.

We're not all the same. Sadly, this is probably the LEAST ignorant post I've seen about people with depression since this story broke.

All I'm seeing on facebook is 'depressed people shouldn't be allowed to work.' I've seen it on boards too.

I understand why the information was released, but Christ, it's caused the taboo around mental health to worsen already.

fryup

fryup wrote: »

i'm surprised that he was capable of becoming an airline pilot,,,since most people who suffer from depression have poor concentration and attention levels...surprised he passed the exams

Calina wrote: »

I am not sure this is true.

as someone who has suffered in the past it is very much true

look at the list of symptoms

Slow thinking, poor concentration, forgetful or indecisive

Chris_5339762

Out of interest, why couldn't the pilot break the door down? How tough are the post 9/11 doors? Surely if he enlisted the help of some large passengers they could have kicked it open.

sjb25

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Out of interest, why couldn't the pilot break the door down? How tough are the post 9/11 doors? Surely if he enlisted the help of some large passengers they could have kicked it open.

You would more or less need a bomb to open it no amount of kicking will open them

Mountainsandh

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Out of interest, why couldn't the pilot break the door down? How tough are the post 9/11 doors? Surely if he enlisted the help of some large passengers they could have kicked it open.

Good point, and I was reading elsewhere about panels designed to come off when force is used. I guess the door design here was more acutely defensive. They're talking about portes blindees in the statement s, which translates as "armoured".

hardCopy

fryup wrote: »

as someone who has suffered in the past it is very much true

look at the list of symptoms

As with any illness, sufferers don't necessarily experience every symptom, not do they experience them at all times.

Henry Ford III

Why did the co pilot make 149 other people part of his suicide?

I can't get my head around that at all.

sjb25

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Good point, and I was reading elsewhere about panels designed to come off when force is used. I guess the door design here was more acutely defensive. They're talking about portes blindees in the statement s, which translates as "armoured".

They are reinforced Kevlar doors I'd call that fairly armoured and they would not be designed to come of with force that would defeat the purpose of them

Mountainsandh

fryup wrote: »

as someone who has suffered in the past it is very much true

look at the list of symptoms

My own father took his life after a lifetime of depression, he was a highly qualified bank manager. He just lost to the disease in the end, but he fought it well enough to study and qualify, and work for most of his adult life.

kippy

While this isn't the first incident of it's type involving a pilot crashing a fully loaded plane full of innocent people one would hope that it is the incident to perhaps once and for all thrust the issue of suicide into the spotlight resulting in a better understanding of the causation and variables that can lead to such a bad event.
While suicide in itself is bad enough, taking innocent people with you is a different ball game but it is unfortunately happening and the ultimately cause of which needs to be looked at, understood better, and steps put in place to try counteract it!

I was at a funeral last night of a person who had died by suicide, the third such funeral I've been at in the past 9 months. I suspect everyone on here can give similiar stories.

It is now a scourge on our country, which is fast increasing from what I can tell. More needs to be done on the issue.

Again,
RIP to all the poor innocent passengers in this event.

kona

I'd say there's a doctor somewhere Absoloutly crapping himself.

Happyman42

There has to be an onus on the consumer of media too.
The people the Daily Mail are addressing are probably already stupid to a degree and have their minds made up about those with depression. Preaching to the converted.

Wouldn't matter what happened here, media would be sensationalising it anyway.

Calina

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Edit : I don't think the media storm can affect the integrity of the investigation, how ?

Mainly I am thinking about the stress and pressure that goes with trying to accomplish something complicated, nuanced, and already causing a lot of discussion under a spotlight rather than integrity.

Cianmcliam

OSI wrote: »

Just look at how some character references of the co-pilot changed after it was revealed he had "deliberately" crashed the plane. They went from "a normal, caring nice guy" to "a bit of a weirdo". It's a common occurrence in these kinds of investigations, peoples opinions and recollections are heavily influenced by the situation they are given under.

Equally, they may have been disinclined to speak ill of the dead, would you like to be the person who says 'he seemed a bit out of touch with reality' if it then emerged he had carried out heroic actions to try and save lives.

It's one thing when early signs are pointing at at likely pilot error but much different when it's pretty certain to have been deliberate action. I don't see much merit in keeping that quiet, it would look like they were covering their own failure to spot this before hand.

wretcheddomain

OSI wrote: »

Just look at how some character references of the co-pilot changed after it was revealed he had "deliberately" crashed the plane. They went from "a normal, caring nice guy" to "a bit of a weirdo". It's a common occurrence in these kinds of investigations, peoples opinions and recollections are heavily influenced by the situation they are given under.

Yes, they are heavily influenced - but only because a situation has arisen where they can now tell the truth.

jmayo

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Out of interest, why couldn't the pilot break the door down? How tough are the post 9/11 doors? Surely if he enlisted the help of some large passengers they could have kicked it open.

If anyone around here watches Person of Interest on RTE2 Monday nights, one of the main protagonists had to break into a cockpit the other night to stop assasin from crashing the plane.
He just rammed the trolley at the door and hey presto.
Then to compund the disbeleif, his partner remote control landed the aircraft using his PC and connected flight sim joystick.
So much for TV and Hollywood make beleive.

Sorry I haven't been watching news and only hearing snippets on radio, but is this now the offical cause of the accident ?

If sthis is waht happened it must have been harrowing for the passengers and flight crew realising what this guy was doing.

Listening to someone on radio this morning the incidents of this have been more common than people think, althought most have taken place outside Europe and US.

sjb25

jmayo wrote: »

If anyone around here watches Person of Interest on RTE2 Monday nights, one of the main protagonists had to break into a cockpit the other night to stop assasin from crashing the plane.
He just rammed the trolley at the door and hey presto.
Then to compund the disbeleif, his partner remote control landed the aircraft using his PC and connected flight sim joystick.
So much for TV and Hollywood make beleive.

Sorry I haven't been watching news and only hearing snippets on radio, but is this now the offical cause of the accident ?


If sthis is waht happened it must have been harrowing for the passengers and flight crew realising what this guy was doing.

Listening to someone on radio this morning the incidents of this have been more common than people think, althought most have taken place outside Europe and US.

That is make believe no way a trolley would open one of these doors if you rammed it and as for the guy landing it with his computer........ Yes investigators seem to believe the co pilot deliberately crashed the aircraft and also I don't think it's very common at all really where did you here that and did they give examples of incidents like this.....

jmayo

kona wrote: »

I'd say there's a doctor somewhere Absoloutly crapping himself.

This leads me to ask a question which maybe one of the professionals around here can kindly answer ?

I have only ever done a Class 2 Medical and from what I can see the big concerns are heart and vision.

What is the story with Class 1s regarding physcological tests ?
What are the steps if coming back from sick leave ?
Are there any extra steps involved if coming back from mental health issues, mental fatigue, etc ?

Renegade Mechanic

The kind of force it would take to break open/apart those doors would destroy the aircraft first!

Tenger

jmayo wrote: »

......
Sorry I haven't been watching news and only hearing snippets on radio, but is this now the offical cause of the accident ?
.......
Listening to someone on radio this morning the incidents of this have been more common than people think, althought most have taken place outside Europe and US.

Seems to be at present. CVR showed that the captain left the flight deck, at this point the descent commenced, no comms from the first oficier, sounds of attempts to open the door aparently heard. This evidence points to the terrifying conclusion.


In regards to "more common than you think"
Thats a bit alarmist. They was the Egyptair 990 crash, and a Jetblue incident where an erratic captain was deliberately locked out of the cabin by the F/O. I think there was 2-3 more. (someone posted them about 20-30 pages back)
Thats a tiny fraction, considering that there are 10's of 1000's of flights taken each day.

jmayo

sjb25 wrote: »

That is make believe no way a trolley would open one of these doors if you rammed it and as for the guy landing it with his computer........ Yes investigators seem to believe the co pilot deliberately crashed the aircraft and also I don't think it's very common at all really where did you here that and did they give examples of incidents like this.....

Firstly did I say it wasn't make beleive.
The reason I mentioned the program was how the episode last Monday night almost played out a few days later in reality.
It was the first thing my other half said to me last night was almost how prescient the program was.

Secondly I didn't say it was VERY COMMON, I said it was MORE COMMON than people think.

Tenger I wasn't trying to be alarmist. Just trying to say it isn't unknown.

I think Irish Steve listed some of the incidents earlier in thread.

The one I always remember was the 1994 Fedex cargo flight engineer (ex Navy pilot) hopping a lift with another crew and proceeding to try bludgeon them to death with a lump hammer, so that he could crash the plane and his family could get his insurance as he was in financial trouble and knew he was about to be canned for misreporting hours.

From cursory look on web the following accidents have been attributed to pilot suicide ...

In 2013, a Mozambique Airlines went down in Namibia, with 27 passengers and crew on board.

In 1997, SilkAir Flight 185, a Boeing 737-300, entered into a steep dive and crashed into the Musi River in Indonesia. All 97 passengers and 7 crew died.

In 1999, EgyptAir flight 990, a Boeing 767 flying from New York to Cairo, crashed in the Atlantic, killing 217 people.

A Royal Air Maroc pilot was accused of switching off autopilot and intentionally steering an ATR-42 into the Atlas Mountains shortly after takeoff from Agadir, Morocco in 1994.

And this was similar in that a pilot took control, basically hijacking the flight ...

Ethiopian Airlines Flight 702 was a scheduled flight from Addis Ababa to Milan via Rome on 17 February 2014. The aircraft, an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 767-300ER, was hijacked by the unarmed co-pilot en route from Addis Ababa to Rome, and landed at Geneva.

We all know statistically speaking it is a very small chance of happening and flying is still the safest form of transport.

ben.schlomo

jmayo wrote: »

Firstly did I say it wasn't make beleive.
The reason I mentioned the program was how the episode last Monday night almost played out a few days later in reality.
It was the first thing my other half said to me last night was almost how prescient the program was.

Secondly I didn't say it was VERY COMMON, I said it was MORE COMMON than people think.

Tenger I wasn't trying to be alarmist. Just trying to say it isn't unknown.

I think Irish Steve listed some of the incidents earlier in thread.

The one I always remember was the 1994 Fedex cargo flight engineer (ex Navy pilot) hopping a lift with another crew and proceeding to try bludgeon them to death with a lump hammer, so that he could crash the plane and his family could get his insurance as he was in financial trouble and knew he was about to be canned for misreporting hours.

From cursory look on web the following accidents have been attributed to pilot suicide ...

In 2013, a Mozambique Airlines went down in Namibia, with 27 passengers and crew on board.

In 1997, SilkAir Flight 185, a Boeing 737-300, entered into a steep dive and crashed into the Musi River in Indonesia. All 97 passengers and 7 crew died.

In 1999, EgyptAir flight 990, a Boeing 767 flying from New York to Cairo, crashed in the Atlantic, killing 217 people.

A Royal Air Maroc pilot was accused of switching off autopilot and intentionally steering an ATR-42 into the Atlas Mountains shortly after takeoff from Agadir, Morocco in 1994.

And this was similar in that a pilot took control, basically hijacking the flight ...

Ethiopian Airlines Flight 702 was a scheduled flight from Addis Ababa to Milan via Rome on 17 February 2014. The aircraft, an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 767-300ER, was hijacked by the unarmed co-pilot en route from Addis Ababa to Rome, and landed at Geneva.

We all know statistically speaking it is a very small chance of happening and flying is still the safest form of transport.

So 5 in twenty odd years, would it even be measurable as a percentage given the amount of flights in a year, let alone 20 years.

Nesta99

I suffered from a 'serious depressive episode' in the past in the aftermath of a bereavment among other things. A career in the NHS has exposed me to some of the worst things (neglect rather than just grusome). The reason for me saying this is that it seems a bit of a let off in a way for the conduct of the co-pilot for investigators to refer to a past depressive episode. Yes these things are unique to each individual but a depressed and suicidal person does not kill en masse like this if I can loosely use the term, normally. Suicidal people attempt a form of insulation from their actions or they murder those closest to them in murder suicide events. This is something very different - a psychotic episode maybe. I have somewhat of a concern here beyond this tragedy - many many people are diagnosed with 'serious depressive episodes' and this co-pilot is being labled with this diagnosis in a loose comment manner! More details of his psychiatric history are needed where it may be found that there was a underlying pyschosis that led to a depressive episode before people draw conclusions on his state of mind. Also psychiatric evaluation wont always identify people that are at risk or a risk if they in total denial of there being a psychosis. The mask can slip for friends and relatives etc now and again but can also be fixed on tight for to pass an evaluation.

kona

The pilot shouldn't have been flying, does mental illness remove personal responsibility?
There's alot of procedures broken here it seems.

As harsh as it is , pilot is not the profession for somebody who was mentally weak.

Looking back over the last few major accidents pilot error is the main reason , I can see things changing big time as regards training and procedure for them.

batman_oh

At what point are you beyond depressed and just a psychopath? I think when you willingly kill 150 people it puts you in the realm of evil really. Yes it's not normal behaviour but some people just have stuff like this in them and no amount of medical care is going to stop it

sjb25

CNN saying German police say he was being treated for an illness and had ripped up doctors notes that he was unfit for work

TheChizler

kona wrote: »

The pilot shouldn't have been flying, does mental illness remove personal responsibility?
There's alot of procedures broken here it seems.

As harsh as it is , pilot is not the profession for somebody who was mentally weak.

Wow.

kona

TheChizler wrote: »

Wow.

Wow yourself he murdered 149 people because of it.

sjb25

TheChizler wrote: »

Wow.

I think what kona means is there is certain jobs like pilots where you do not want somebody doing it if they are going to go to bits under pressure or for any reason

P_1

sjb25 wrote: »

CNN saying German police say he was being treated for an illness and had ripped up doctors notes that he was unfit for work

That opens up a new can of worms. Should doctor-patient confidentiality be voided in cases like this for certain professions?

ProfessorPlum

batman_oh wrote: »

At what point are you beyond depressed and just a psychopath? I think when you willingly kill 150 people it puts you in the realm of evil really. Yes it's not normal behaviour but some people just have stuff like this in them and no amount of medical care is going to stop it

Probably not your intention, but your comment is really not helpful. Depression does not cause, or lead people to become psychopaths/sociopaths. Sociopathy is a character trait - depression can not cause it.

kona

sjb25 wrote: »

I think what kona means is there is certain jobs like pilots where you do not want somebody doing it if they are going to go to bits under pressure or for any reason

Exactley what I ment. People just look for things to get offended by.

TheChizler

kona wrote: »

Wow yourself he murdered 149 people because of it.

And your post is making a massive assumption at the cost of labeling millions of people as 'mentally weak'.

Ash.J.Williams

I really doubt there is a link between Depression and mass murder

kona

kona wrote: »

Exactley what I ment. People just look for things to get offended by.

Perhaps you should write what you mean then instead of massively generalised statements about an already stigmatised issue?

TheChizler

P_1 wrote: »

That opens up a new can of worms. Should doctor-patient confidentiality be voided in cases like this for certain professions?

I don't know about Germany but certainly here if the professional feels that you're a danger to others they're pretty much obliged to go to the authorities.