Germanwings A320 Crash

Tenger

expectationlost wrote: »

how long does it take to become a pilot for large planes for an airline? as opposed to a co-pilot

You are not new to this forum, so I'm a little surprised.

Pilot is the job, Captain + First Officer are the titles. BOTH are pilots.
BOTH of them fly the aircraft, its not as if the person on the right is an assistant or isn't allowed to touch the controls.

Promotion to Captain will depend on length of service in the airline, each is different. You need to pass what are called Commnad Checks to get the role. This in itself is very stressful and intensive. Some airlines have a limit on how many times you can attempt this check.

As for the type of plane, again it depends on the airline. If you work for Cathay Pacific/Emirates you will only ever be on a widebody.

Amirani

kona wrote: »

There's a link between mental illness and mass murder tho.

Do you think these are the actions of a mentally healthy man?

Take a look at the Base Rate fallacy, this is a classic mistake.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy

BorneTobyWilde

gaffergamgee wrote: »

Just a question some of the pilots/frequent flyers might be able to answer- just how robust is the door to the cockpit? Seems to me it must be pretty strong if a desperate man couldn't gain access with an axe! Was it just a question of the pilot not having enough time to break it down or is it pretty much impregnable if locked from the inside?

People ask that over and over and it was answered over and over. It's designed to not fail. Think of it as a jail . You can't just kick your way out, or in .

pfurey101

It appears that the CVR recording has been leaked and is available online and pilots are posting that they heard them.

First the co-pilot story was leaked to and by the Americans and now the recordings.

Something is not right here! Maybe it is a fake?


Here is one quote:

Simply, as a pilot with over 23,000 hrs, the last 60 seconds recording I just listened to does not convince me at all. That's all.

kona

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Take a look at the Base Rate fallacy, this is a classic mistake.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy

Yes, but this event happend. It's not asking about statistics or probability.

If I'm not understanding it correctley, can you explain it?

BorneTobyWilde

People ask why he didn't crash faster steeper . I doubt this guy was looking out window with a smile on his face, waiting for the impact.
I can't imagine he was curled up on the floor trying to block out the screams of captain and passengers.
Question: Will the video footage on people phones be recoverable , I have no doubt that when it all kicked off ,with captain shouting kicking door, passengers screaming wonder why, that people started to record. It's like a natural response these days, pick up phone record.

cnocbui

kona wrote: »

The pilot turned off the fac in flight on the air Asia the last I heard?
Air asiana 777 binned into sfo runway
Air France stalled over Atlantic and pilots lost control
Malaysian is up for debate.

What, you are saying the pilots turned off the autopilot so they could try and save the plane? No! Really? Why would pilots want to fly the plane that had got into difficulties? Pilots actually flying a plane is your definition of 'pilot error' is it?

The Air France incident was clearly initiated by technical malfunction in conjunction with severe adverse weather. The blaming of the pilots for inappropriate actions is a masterful case of backseat driving/hindsight expertise.

Oh I forgot that other recent one - TransAsia Flight GE235 - which suffered a power loss to both engines on takeoff:

"They were still trying to save this aircraft until the last minute," Taiwanese media quoted prosecutors involved in the crash investigation as saying.

Taipei Mayor Ko Wen-je praised pilot MrChien-tsung as a hero.

"We really have to thank that pilot," Ko said.

"He really tried his hardest."

That another example of pilot error? So out of all the recent crashes, only the Air asiana incident can be blamed solely on pilot error, and the outcome was better than all other recent incidents.

As for original assertion:

Originally Posted by kona ...
Looking back over the last few major accidents pilot error is the main reason , I can see things changing big time as regards training and procedure for them.

Turns out to have been completely false. :rolleyes:

sjb25

gaffergamgee wrote: »

Just a question some of the pilots/frequent flyers might be able to answer- just how robust is the door to the cockpit? Seems to me it must be pretty strong if a desperate man couldn't gain access with an axe! Was it just a question of the pilot not having enough time to break it down or is it pretty much impregnable if locked from the inside?

You would litterly need to blow it up to open it it's made from re enforced Kevlar

BorneTobyWilde

Anna Cross is some sort of military super babe.
Tuned in to Sky News at 2pm for lastest on crash, but talking about ebola.

Calina

cnocbui wrote: »

The Air France incident was clearly initiated by technical malfunction in conjunction with severe adverse weather. The blaming of the pilots for inappropriate actions is a masterful case of backseat driving/hindsight expertise.

Every single incident for which we manage to have an explanation is courtesy of hindsight review. That's how we build foresight for the future. Also, there is a preference, as I understand it, not to try and attribute blame but cause in accident investigation. If you go in with the Blame guns blazing, you often don't learn a whole lot. This is true in life in general. Unfortunately a lot of people like attributing blame, usually when they are not the ones to which said blame will be attached. The starting premise is "What caused this accident and how do we prevent it in the future?" rather than "Who is to blame for this?"

On the subject of the current accident, if a recording of the CVR has somehow leaked, someone really, really needs to step up and explain how. Things like this should not be getting leaked.

elastico

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

People ask why he didn't crash faster steeper . I doubt this guy was looking out window with a smile on his face, waiting for the impact.
I can't imagine he was curled up on the floor trying to block out the screams of captain and passengers.
Question: Will the video footage on people phones be recoverable , I have no doubt that when it all kicked off ,with captain shouting kicking door, passengers screaming wonder why, that people started to record. It's like a natural response these days, pick up phone record.

The pilot may have left the cockpit, spend a few minutes chatting to the crew, went to the toilet, chatted to the crew again before knocking on the door, not realising anything was wrong. There might have only been a couple of minutes left.

In flight service was probably only starting so crew would have been near the cockpit anyway.

If there was somebody else in the toilet ahead of him 8 minutes could have been eaten very quickly.

And maybe that's why the co-pilot set it to a slow decent, so that nobody would be aware. He may have said to the captain to take 10 minutes (not sure if that's allowed) I got this covered, and hope nobody knew anything about it at all.

wdmfapq4zs83hv

pfurey101 wrote: »

It appears that the CVR recording has been leaked and is available online and pilots are posting that they heard them.

First the co-pilot story was leaked to and by the Americans and now the recordings.

Something is not right here! Maybe it is a fake?


Here is one quote:

Link??? If that is allowed

sjb25

pfurey101 wrote: »

It appears that the CVR recording has been leaked and is available online and pilots are posting that they heard them.

First the co-pilot story was leaked to and by the Americans and now the recordings.

Something is not right here! Maybe it is a fake?


Here is one quote:

If that is real and it has been leaked the French realy need to explain themselves because that's ridiculous

wdmfapq4zs83hv

elastico wrote: »

The pilot may have left the cockpit, spend a few minutes chatting to the crew, went to the toilet, chatted to the crew again before knocking on the door, not realising anything was wrong. There might have only been a couple of minutes left.

In flight service was probably only starting so crew would have been near the cockpit anyway.

If there was somebody else in the toilet ahead of him 8 minutes could have been eaten very quickly.

And maybe that's why the co-pilot set it to a slow decent, so that nobody would be aware. He may have said to the captain to take 10 minutes (not sure if that's allowed) I got this covered, and hope nobody knew anything about it at all.

But surely the captain would have noticed while in the toilet that the plane was starting to decend & would have rushed back to see what was happening

wdmfapq4zs83hv

Has anyone come across the leaked VCR online?

Spud83

This is the apparent leak. Note if its real then remember what you going to listen to before clicking, its the last recorded sound of 150 people going to their deaths.

<SNIP>

EDIT: Considering this was posted online last night and hasn't been picked up by any news agency I think there has to be serious doubts over its legitimacy.

I snipped the above link. I may put it back in. My initial reaction is that that link is dodgy and quite possibly very much in bad taste.
I am going to guess that it is fake as I can't believe the BEA would release/leak such a recording.
I have saved the link, might have a chat with the other mods on whether this is really the type of (possibly) salacious material we want posted here.

This is not a warning/threat to Spud83, they merely posted a link, nothing wrong with that.

Anyone who really needs to listen can PM Spud 83 for the link.

kona

cnocbui wrote: »

What, you are saying the pilots turned off the autopilot so they could try and save the plane? No! Really? Why would pilots want to fly the plane that had got into difficulties? Pilots actually flying a plane is your definition of 'pilot error' is it?

The Air France incident was clearly initiated by technical malfunction in conjunction with severe adverse weather. The blaming of the pilots for inappropriate actions is a masterful case of backseat driving/hindsight expertise.

Oh I forgot that other recent one - TransAsia Flight GE235 - which suffered a power loss to both engines on takeoff:



That another example of pilot error? So out of all the recent crashes, only the Air asiana incident can be blamed solely on pilot error, and the outcome was better than all other recent incidents.

As for original assertion:



Turns out to have been completely false. :rolleyes:

Thanks for such a comprehensive response.

Your entitled to your opinion , ill let the official reports decide it.

Transasia? Never mentioned that?
What's your view on the asiana 777?

Do you think in a stall situation and pilots pull nose up, that the pilots are not to blame? Because that's what happend in af447.

Air Asia, apparantley he turned off the fac. I never mentioned autopilot Do you even know what the fac is?

wdmfapq4zs83hv

Spud83 wrote: »

This is the apparent leak. Note if its real then remember what you going to listen to before clicking, its the last recorded sound of 150 people going to their deaths.
<SNIP>

Thanks for this. Is it just me or does anyone else not hear any sounds of the captain shouting to get in, banging on door or anyone screaming? Doesnt seem to be the correct recording...

imurdaddy

With the doctors notes the investigation team are supposed to have, it seems like a split second decision on the co pilot's part, who knows if he didn't get his chance on that flight maybe it would never of happened he may have taken the doctor's advise or he could have done it on the return sector! No one knows his state of mind and reason for his actions. Very sad situation for all involved, his family must be in hell with the loss of a son and the death of 149 innocent people at his hands.

one thing I will say and maybe im nieve but until the official report is released I'll try to keep an open mind, who knows what the investigation will turn up yet!

Cianmcliam

Myla Worried Rattle wrote: »

Thanks for this. Is it just me or does anyone else not hear any sounds of the captain shouting to get in, banging on door or anyone screaming? Doesnt seem to be the correct recording...

Isn't that the over speed warning audible? Probably the Mozambique 470(?) crash in Namibia?

Spud83

Myla Worried Rattle wrote: »

Thanks for this. Is it just me or does anyone else not hear any sounds of the captain shouting to get in, banging on door or anyone screaming? Doesnt seem to be the correct recording...

I could definitely here the sounds of banging, and a voice shouting, got to remember this in the cockpit and any voices outside will be extremely muffled. I also heard what appears to be two alarms going off in the cockpit which at a guess are supposed to be from the door locking mechanism, and them being switched off by the first officer. There then seems to be what seems like an intercom call. As I said above in my edit though, I'd say this was put together to sound like what the prosecutors said yesterday rather than the actual recording. No news agency has picked it up, and its been online since last night.

wdmfapq4zs83hv

Also you would expect to hear the warning "terrain pull up" on the recording but its not there

BorneTobyWilde

elastico wrote: »

The pilot may have left the cockpit, spend a few minutes chatting to the crew, went to the toilet, chatted to the crew again before knocking on the door, not realising anything was wrong. There might have only been a couple of minutes left.

In flight service was probably only starting so crew would have been near the cockpit anyway.

If there was somebody else in the toilet ahead of him 8 minutes could have been eaten very quickly.

And maybe that's why the co-pilot set it to a slow decent, so that nobody would be aware. He may have said to the captain to take 10 minutes (not sure if that's allowed) I got this covered, and hope nobody knew anything about it at all.

No need to speculate , captain shouted and tried to smash door in while everyone screamed. It's fact at this stage. He knew something was up pretty quick.
Will the video on passengers phones be recoverable though. It's a reflex these days to pick up phone and record.

sjb25

Myla Worried Rattle wrote: »

Also you would expect to hear the warning "terrain pull up" on the recording but its not there

All I could hear is banging some shouting and two different alarms one sounds like over speed alarm other than that iv no idea listened to it twice I can't make anyting of it I'd have doubts it's real tho it would be all over the media if it was

pfurey101

Are these the real Tea Party people in the US???? If so they are indeed probably all mad....

Sorry for posting this strange link................

http://www.tpnn.com/2015/03/27/breaking-germanwings-co-pilot-was-muslim-convert/

They actually show a screen grab of what they say in "his" page, it looks like one of sick pages set up overnight.

A scary organisation if this is genuine Tea Party crap!

pfurey101

sjb25 wrote: »

All I could hear is banging some shouting and two different alarms one sounds like over speed alarm other than that iv no idea listened to it twice I can't make anyting of it I'd have doubts it's real tho it would be all over the media if it was

I think we have been conned!!

kona

pfurey101 wrote: »

Are these the real Tea Party people in the US???? If so they are indeed probably all mad....

Sorry for posting this strange link................

http://www.tpnn.com/2015/03/27/breaking-germanwings-co-pilot-was-muslim-convert/

They actually show a screen grab of what they say in "his" page, it looks like one of sick pages set up overnight.

A scary organisation if this is genuine Tea Party crap!

That's pathetic tbh, disgusting carry on. What even are these tea party news?

BorneTobyWilde

Myla Worried Rattle wrote: »

Also you would expect to hear the warning "terrain pull up" on the recording but its not there

It's there
''beeb Pull up'' Pull up ''

cppilot98

Spud83 wrote: »

This is the apparent leak. Note if its real then remember what you going to listen to before clicking, its the last recorded sound of 150 people

EDIT: Considering this was posted online last night and hasn't been picked up by any news agency I think there has to be serious doubts over its legitimacy.

Fake, a sick one at that. The clue is that there no sign of the ground proximity warnings. 'Pull up, pull up.' In any case only a few people will have access to original. All of them grown up enough not to leak anything.

As for Lubitz, the sick note clinches it. He was about to lose his medical, probably his job and career. More than one pilot has become suicidal when that happened.

Tenger

Myla Worried Rattle wrote: »

But surely the captain would have noticed while in the toilet that the plane was starting to decend & would have rushed back to see what was happening

Captain and cabin crew would immediately have noticed the descent, especially after they just levelled at cruise.

Aerohead

Over on pprune they say its not the tape, in the real tape its reported you can hear the Captain is calling him by his name etc, there is nothing in that tape.

pfurey101

kona wrote: »

That's pathetic tbh, disgusting carry on. What even are these tea party news?

And even more upsetting are some of the comments made in support of the article.

The voices of reason are being well supported. There is hope yet.

sjb25

pfurey101 wrote: »

Are these the real Tea Party people in the US???? If so they are indeed probably all mad....

Sorry for posting this strange link................

http://www.tpnn.com/2015/03/27/breaking-germanwings-co-pilot-was-muslim-convert/

They actually show a screen grab of what they say in "his" page, it looks like one of sick pages set up overnight.

A scary organisation if this is genuine Tea Party crap!

Lads that is some read/bulsh1t.......... Wouldn't mind but German police actually said the found notting linking him to terrorism in any way

sjb25

cppilot98 wrote: »

Fake, a sick one at that. The clue is that there no sign of the ground proximity warnings. 'Pull up, pull up.' In any case only a few people will have access to original. All of them grown up enough not to leak anything.

As for Lubitz, the sick note clinches it. He was about to lose his medical, probably his job and career. More than one pilot has become suicidal when that happened.

I'd say that's very probable he knew he was about to be stopped from flying and that was the last straw.....

Tenger

pfurey101 wrote: »

Are these the real Tea Party people in the US???? If so they are indeed probably all mad....
...........
They actually show a screen grab of what they say in "his" page, it looks like one of sick pages set up overnight.

A scary organisation if this is genuine Tea Party crap!

Very obvious fake FB page, set up yesterday or last night. Used the only photo of the F/O show by news outlets.

SpaceTime

You'd want to be one rather twisted individual to 'leak' a fake tape or a tape of something totally unrelated.

I mean why just cause people even more upset?!

1123heavy

A descent rate of anything of around 4000 ft/min is more than noticeable, I doubt none of the passengers noticed the descent because it's fairly hard not to. I think the captain be he in the toilet or wherever else would have noticed immediately the aircraft descending and that something was wrong, maybe it wasn't until after knowing he had descended for a while he got desperate then tried to use the axe, at which point the passengers realised the struggle ? I'm not sure of the layout of the Germanwings A320 but some airlines have curtains blocking view of the cockpit door to passengers during flight. Though having said that, if I was a passenger on a flight and we began descending at that rapid rate half way in I would be asking the FA what was going on, I doubt the people on board only realised they were descending until "the last few seconds" as has been reported.

sjb25

1123heavy wrote: »

A descent rate of anything of around 4000 ft/min is more than noticeable, I doubt none of the passengers noticed the descent because it's fairly hard not to. I think the captain be he in the toilet or wherever else would have noticed immediately the aircraft descending and that something was wrong, maybe it wasn't until after knowing he had descended for a while he got desperate then tried to use the axe, at which point the passengers realised the struggle ? I'm not sure of the layout of the Germanwings A320 but some airlines have curtains blocking view of the cockpit door to passengers during flight. Though having said that, if I was a passenger on a flight and we began descending at that rapid rate half way in I would be asking the FA what was going on, I doubt the people on board only realised they were descending until "the last few seconds" as has been reported.

I'd say curtain or no curtain it would be fairly obvious to all on board what was happening with the shouting and banging

And me personally I'd say I'd notice us descending straightaway aswell if I was onboard and would get rather fidgety if it continued for any length of time without any announcement that soon in the flight even without the drama over the door

Bob24

1123heavy wrote: »

I doubt the people on board only realised they were descending until "the last few seconds" as has been reported.

Same here. I think the guy was just trying to comfort the families - don't know if it was a good thing to say.

He was probably not lying in saying people can only be heard shouting at the very end. To hear them from the cockpit they would have to be a lot of them shouting pretty loud, and I would say even if people notice something is wrong they wouldn't be shouting hysterically for a full 8 minutes. It might even be dead silent for a while as they are processing the situation and getting very scarred and anxious.

SpaceTime

sjb25 wrote: »

I'd say curtain or no curtain it would be fairly obvious to all on board what was happening with the shouting and banging

And me personally I'd say I'd notice us descending straightaway aswell if I was onboard and would get rather fidgety if it continued for any length of time without any announcement that soon in the flight even without the drama over the door

From what I remember of a Germanwings flight, they're rather like Aer Lingus single-class short haul on board. Although, Aer Lingus is a bit 'classier' looking with the dark seats.

I don't remember there being any curtains in front of the galley. So, I'd say people would have pretty much been fully aware of what was going on.

Simon Gruber Says

1123heavy wrote: »

I doubt the people on board only realised they were descending until "the last few seconds" as has been reported.

That may be true, but it doesn't need to be reported, especially for the families' sake. Just like the news didn't need to report that passengers on MH17 were found with oxygen masks.

1123heavy

I don't remember there being any curtains in front of the galley. So, I'd say people would have pretty much been fully aware of what was going on.

In which case I could not even begin to imagine what was going through the captain's mind. Coming out the toilet and realising your first officer is denying you access back into the cockpit and you're rapidly descending while 145 odd people whom you have always done your utmost to protect are staring at you. The feeling of helplessness must have been unbearable.

I've read that its been confirmed Sondenheimer (Captain) started with light knocking and then ended up with heavy thumping. I can only imagine the captain - in trying to remain as professional as possible in front of his passengers - tried to do things as calmly as possible for as long as he could and then grew desperate after a few minutes passed and brought out the axe.

P.S. I've read he used an axe, I never knew there was an axe in the passenger cabin, I thought it was only within the cockpit. Maybe that's one bit of information the public could have done without knowing with all the lunatics in the world today !

BorneTobyWilde

Is there any possibility that there was a passenger in that cockpit ? That captain left and that passenger knocked on door and was let in without co pilot checking? Has to be possible?

Cianmcliam

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Is there any possibility that there was a passenger in that cockpit ? That captain left and that passenger knocked on door and was let in without co pilot checking? Has to be possible?

The voice recorder would record any struggle though and there was none.

sjb25

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Is there any possibility that there was a passenger in that cockpit ? That captain left and that passenger knocked on door and was let in without co pilot checking? Has to be possible?

I'd say there would have been at least a conversation between the co pilot and said passenger when he entered which would have been heard on the voice recorder not just a pilot breathing so doubtful in this case

Tenger

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Is there any possibility that there was a passenger in that cockpit ? That captain left and that passenger knocked on door and was let in without co pilot checking? Has to be possible?

No.
As had been explained mutiple times in this thread. Please read back a little when able.

The BEA statement says that the captain exited, leaving the F/O alone in the flight deck.

There is a procedure to ID check people at the door. The captain and the cabin crew would have been in the galley area, how exactly would a passenger sneak in?
Why would a passenger knock on the door that says "No Entry".
Why would the F/O respond to a knock when that is not the procedure?
Why would the statement not mention another person entering the flight deck?

mickdw

The passengers would struggle for a time to know what was going on re the pilots. How would they know who the good guy was. For all they knew, the guy banging on the door had flipped and maybe they needed to restrain him. Maybe the pilot inside had locked him out for good reason.

weldoninhio

kona wrote: »

So he didnt murder 149 people? Have you gotten onto the authorities to tell them this?? Or did he tell you that this is not what he was doing??

He did, you said he murdered them because of "it". What specifically is "it"?? Again, when did you diagnose him with "it"? And did you contact the authorities to let them know that he had "it"??

imurdaddy

Harrowing stuff folks, maybe we have become desensitised to disasters such as this, but when it happens on our doorstep it really hits home the individual tragedy of the pax and crew! Dare I say even the circumstances that led a high achieving young man to carry out such a terrible act! I do feel a type of sympathy for him but the way he acted dissolves it.

I guess if he lost his class 1 his career was over and he could see not future for himself without avation. From day one of this crash I had a feeling it was downed intentional but I really hoped I was wrong.

refusetolose

sjb25 wrote: »

All I could hear is banging some shouting and two different alarms one sounds like over speed alarm other than that iv no idea listened to it twice I can't make anyting of it I'd have doubts it's real tho it would be all over the media if it was

commas are free lad