Germanwings A320 Crash

sjb25

refusetolose wrote: »

commas are free lad

Very sorry sir

Skuxx

Has there been anything said about the captain of the aircraft? I havn't heard a single thing! It would be nice to hear his name atleast, the man died a hero in my opinion, trying his best to save the lives of 149 other people! Out of everyone on board he must have known straight away, before anyone else that things were about to go drastically wrong! I'm sick of hearing about the hipocrite first officer!!

sjb25

Skuxx wrote: »

Has there been anything said about the captain of the aircraft? I havn't heard a single thing! It would be nice to hear his name atleast, the man died a hero in my opinion, trying his best to save the lives of 149 other people! Out of everyone on board he must have known straight away, before anyone else that things were about to go drastically wrong! I'm sick of hearing about the hipocrite first officer!!

Captain Patrick Sondenheimer

JuliusCaesar

Slightly off topic.

OSI wrote: »

Just look at how some character references of the co-pilot changed after it was revealed he had "deliberately" crashed the plane. They went from "a normal, caring nice guy" to "a bit of a weirdo". It's a common occurrence in these kinds of investigations, peoples opinions and recollections are heavily influenced by the situation they are given under.

Cianmcliam wrote: »

Equally, they may have been disinclined to speak ill of the dead, would you like to be the person who says 'he seemed a bit out of touch with reality' if it then emerged he had carried out heroic actions to try and save lives.

It's one thing when early signs are pointing at at likely pilot error but much different when it's pretty certain to have been deliberate action. I don't see much merit in keeping that quiet, it would look like they were covering their own failure to spot this before hand.

Cianmcliam, you might want to have a read of this list of cognitive biases - people will make interpretations on the evidence available. It goes from 'he was a normal quiet type' to "you say he crashed the aircraft? I always knew he was weird!" And they will totally believe it.

wretcheddomain wrote: »

Yes, they are heavily influenced - but only because a situation has arisen where they can now tell the truth.

Ditto wretcheddomain.

kona wrote: »

The pilot shouldn't have been flying, does mental illness remove personal responsibility?
There's alot of procedures broken here it seems.

As harsh as it is , pilot is not the profession for somebody who was mentally weak.

Strangely enough, kona, we are ALL "mentally weak", to use your horrible phrase. The point at which we will crack will be different from day to day, depending on the interplay between our own selves, and the circumstances in which we find ourselves. It's called resilience.

Speaking psychologically, if I may, it is very unusual for someone to commit murder-suicide with a bunch of random stranger. Most murder/suicides are committed by a parent (usually a father) who has convinced himself that the rest of the family are better off dead. Or in the case of school shootings, that those evil bullies deserve to die for making my life a misery. Brevik in Norway wanted to eliminate the next generation of liberal-lefties in part. It's usually personal.


I am absolutely appalled at the attitude of the media, in further stigmatising depression. It is THE most common mental disorder with an estimated incidence of 1 in 4 people at some stage of their lives. And yet, the majority do nothing to harm themselves, and still less harm others.

kona

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

I am absolutely appalled at the attitude of the media, in further stigmatising depression. It is THE most common mental disorder with an estimated incidence of 1 in 4 people at some stage of their lives. And yet, the majority do nothing to harm themselves, and still less harm others.

I don't think his depression was a factor. I think there was another health issue.

Fair enough about your assessment maybe mentally weak was the wrong term to use and resillience was the correct one.

I still stand by my point. If you have mental health issues you shouldn't be near a position of responsibility like a pilot. Obviously if your treated and are ok again then there's no issue.

Cianmcliam

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Slightly off topic.





Cianmcliam, you might want to have a read of this list of cognitive biases - people will make interpretations on the evidence available. It goes from 'he was a normal quiet type' to "you say he crashed the aircraft? I always knew he was weird!" And they will totally believe it.



Ditto wretcheddomain.

I'm not totally unfamiliar with the different cognitive biases, however you're not dealing with a neutral subject. People will be shocked by the contrast between the person they knew and the person who commits terrible crimes. They will also be unsettled by how their confidence in their own judgement has been shattered. That's why you hear it all the time after terrible crimes 'they seemed like such a nice, normal person' and the words made infamous in the viral videos a year or two ago 'we ate ribs with this dude! But we didn't have a clue'. The contrast in what they believed and what they now know is more powerful than the subtle biases that creep in.

Roquentin

kona wrote: »

I don't think his depression was a factor. I think there was another health issue.

Fair enough about your assessment maybe mentally weak was the wrong term to use and resillience was the correct one.

I still stand by my point. If you have mental health issues you shouldn't be near a position of responsibility like a pilot. Obviously if your treated and are ok again then there's no issue.

the problem is anyone could be taken down with depression at any point. Someone they love could die and the depression could strike

kona

Roquentin wrote: »

the problem is anyone could be taken down with depression at any point. Someone they love could die and the depression could strike

Can you read what I posted again?

Precious flower

sjb25 wrote: »

I'd say curtain or no curtain it would be fairly obvious to all on board what was happening with the shouting and banging

And me personally I'd say I'd notice us descending straightaway aswell if I was onboard and would get rather fidgety if it continued for any length of time without any announcement that soon in the flight even without the drama over the door

Yeah I was thinking that myself. I mean when I've been on a flight (which is rare because I'm terrified of flying, so maybe I'm just hyper sensitive) but when we went to London a year ago, I could feel when the plane tilted ever so slightly and when it ascended slightly and descended. I can't imagine the passengers not noticing that or only noticing it in the last few moments as was reported. It's just so awful, I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. How terrified everyone must have been and the children and babies on board.

Roquentin

kona wrote: »

Can you read what I posted again?

go ahead make your jokes, jokey joke maker

1123heavy

kona wrote: »

I still stand by my point. If you have mental health issues you shouldn't be near a position of responsibility like a pilot. Obviously if your treated and are ok again then there's no issue.

While the wording in bold is correct, it is impossible to implement. Put yourself in the situation where you've spent over £100,000 and spent years upon years of hard work and dedication to achieve your lifelong dream of being an airline pilot. Then at some point down the line you end up going through a rough patch and you're depressed due to marriage, family issues, financial woes and many other issues that can happen at once. As is the case with depression, you look at life from a totally different perspective that you once did.

Are you telling me that upon suffering from the above, you would walk into the company medical department and reveal all and basically give up the last thing you have to cling on to ? Because I can guarantee you that in this day and age you are never getting that class 1 medical back and can wave goodbye to your dream. The reality is that no pilot is going to give themselves up, as despite what the kind company psychiatrists tell you about "no consequences", only a fool believes they will allow you to pilot again if you've hit a rough patch, regardless of whether you make a full recovery or not.

You are essentially relying on pilots to give themselves in, as unsettling as it may be for some, that ain't ever gonna happen. I think the change has to come on the medical side of things, and not being overly pedantic and when people have genuinely made a full recovery to allow them to continue their life. Before people say Lubitz made a full recovery, compelling evidence has emerged that he hadn't. There are thousands upon thousands of pilots out there, they are bound to have depression at some point or another, despite their profession they are all human and subject to human emotions, not robots.

If people are thinking I've gone off point a bit with this, there was a story a while back of an English girl who applied to work as cabin crew for Emirates. Upon discovering that she had suffered depression about 2/3 years before her application, Emirates refused her appliation based on it. Now one can only imagine what would be the case if that was a pilot. It should therefore come as no mystery when pilots keep depression on the low, because the vast majority know they will make a full recovery despite their struggle and there will be nothing wrong so why hand yourself in and destroy your life ?

kona

Roquentin wrote: »

go ahead make your jokes, jokey joke maker

Okaaaaaaaay

kona

1123heavy wrote: »

While the wording in bold is correct, it is impossible to implement. Put yourself in the situation where you've spent over £100,000 and spent years upon years of hard work and dedication to achieve your lifelong dream of being an airline pilot. Then at some point down the line you end up going through a rough patch and you're depressed due to marriage, family issues, financial woes and many other issues that can happen at once. As is the case with depression, you look at life from a totally different perspective that you once did.

Are you telling me that upon suffering from the above, you would walk into the company medical department and reveal all and basically give up the last thing you have to cling on to ? Because I can guarantee you that in this day and age you are never getting that class 1 medical back and can wave goodbye to your dream. The reality is that no pilot is going to give themselves up, as despite what the kind company psychiatrists tell you about "no consequences", only a fool believes they will allow you to pilot again if you've hit a rough patch, regardless of whether you make a full recovery or not.

You are essentially relying on pilots to give themselves in, as unsettling as it may be for some, that ain't ever gonna happen. I think the change has to come on the medical side of things, and not being overly pedantic and when people have genuinely made a full recovery to allow them to continue their life. Before people say Lubitz made a full recovery, compelling evidence has emerged that he hadn't. There are thousands upon thousands of pilots out there, they are bound to have depression at some point or another, despite their profession they are all human and subject to human emotions, not robots.

If people are thinking I've gone off point a bit with this, there was a story a while back of an English girl who applied to work as cabin crew for Emirates. Upon discovering that she had suffered depression about 2/3 years before her application, Emirates refused her appliation based on it. Now one can only imagine what would be the case if that was a pilot. It should therefore come as no mystery when pilots keep depression on the low, because the vast majority know they will make a full recovery despite their struggle and there will be nothing wrong so why hand yourself in and destroy your life ?

A company psychiatrist would sort that out. If you want to be a pilot and have such responsibility you should prove it every year.

Obviously if somebody is having a rough time , you don't just sack them, maybe they should be sent for treatment and looked after. Type rated pilots are a asset to a company and they should be treated as such.
The main thing is the pilot flying is fit to fly.

You can't 100% guarantee it stops, but you can reduce the chances of it.

Just like if there was a mechanical fault, the issue will be addressed and rectified.

1123heavy

Obviously if somebody is having a rough time , you don't just sack them

That is how I think things should be, but in the never ending race to be seen as the "safest" airline, all sorts of pedantic measures are in place and that has been the case for a while. Things look like they're gonna get even stricter after this. You will be gone and not asked to come back even if they have the slightest of suspicions that you're not 100%. The part about the type rating is true but an airline would not hesitate in saying goodbye to you based on you having a type rating, they'll just upgrade someone else to your fleet or hire new person all together, it would cost peanuts in comparison to a potential hull loss is their reasoning, despite the affected person being some great distance from ever going down Lubitz's road.

weldoninhio

1123heavy wrote: »

That is how I think things should be, but in the never ending race to be seen as the "safest" airline, all sorts of pedantic measures are in place and that has been the case for a while. Things look like they're gonna get even stricter after this. You will be gone and not asked to come back even if they have the slightest of suspicions that you're not 100%. The part about the type rating is true but an airline would not hesitate in saying goodbye to you based on you having a type rating, they'll just upgrade someone else to your fleet or hire new person all together, it would cost peanuts in comparison to a potential hull loss is their reasoning, despite the affected person being some great distance from ever going down Lubitz's road.

"Going down Lubitz's road"?? So the report is done? They've released what the medical cert said??

For the A&A forum, it has some of the best psychiatric, and psychic, minds in it.

1123heavy

weldoninhio wrote: »

"Going down Lubitz's road"?? So the report is done? They've released what the medical cert said??

For the A&A forum, it has some of the best psychiatric, and psychic, minds in it.

I take it you missed the French BEA investigator yesterday when he announced it was a deliberate act and you can hear the captain repeatedly bang on the door to be allowed in, as well as today's official announcement that Lubitz randomly became "curt" in addressing the captain during the mid flight briefing, a stark change from the courteous and polite tone he had during the beginning of the flight.

In addition to the above, the flight data recorders revealed Lubitz changed the altitude knob to 100 ft, that is no accident. This isn't speculation, it has been announced by the BEA investigators.

I personally didn't want to believe it as a person who views the aviation profession as their dream profession and couldn't contemplate how someone could do this after having achieved it. However it is now beyond doubt according to the BEA that it was a murder suicide, the report I imagine would include further background to his life, and the greater details of how he actually carried out his actions and what may have happened in the back, not why the aircraft crashed.

Unless of course you believe he was trying to take the passengers for a sightseeing tour of the Alps that went tragically wrong ?

weldoninhio

1123heavy wrote: »

I take it you missed the French BEA investigator yesterday when he announced it was a deliberate act and you can hear the captain repeatedly bang on the door to be allowed in, as well as today's official announcement that Lubitz randomly became "curt" in addressing the captain during the mid flight briefing, a stark change from the courteous and polite tone he had during the beginning of the flight.

In addition to the above, the flight data recorders revealed Lubitz changed the altitude knob to 100 ft, that is no accident. This isn't speculation, it has been announced by the BEA investigators.

I personally didn't want to believe it as a person who views the aviation profession as their dream profession and couldn't contemplate how someone could do this after having achieved it. However it is now beyond doubt according to the BEA that it was a murder suicide, the report I imagine would include further background to his life, and the greater details of how he actually carried out his actions and what may have happened in the back, not why the aircraft crashed.

Unless of course you believe he was trying to take the passengers for a sightseeing tour of the Alps that went tragically wrong ?

I was referring to the supposition that he was depressed that caused this. There has been nothing from the authorities to say that the medical note found had anything to do with a mental condition.

kona

weldoninhio wrote: »

I was referring to the supposition that he was depressed that caused this. There has been nothing from the authorities to say that the medical note found had anything to do with a mental condition.

I suppose you'l just ignore this and keep on you solo run but just incase :

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/03/28/world/europe/germanwings-crash-andreas-lubitz.html?_r=0&referrer=

Note: everybody is referring to his mental health

NOT

Depression.

Calina

1123heavy wrote: »

I take it you missed the French BEA investigator yesterday when he announced it was a deliberate act and you can hear the captain repeatedly bang on the door to be allowed in, as well as today's official announcement that Lubitz randomly became "curt" in addressing the captain during the mid flight briefing, a stark change from the courteous and polite tone he had during the beginning of the flight.

That was not a BEA investigator, but the Procureur for the Republique based in Marseille which has investigating authority in the criminal case there. This is a standard procedure in France by the way and is done in any case of unlawful death.

1123heavy wrote: »

In addition to the above, the flight data recorders revealed Lubitz changed the altitude knob to 100 ft, that is no accident. This isn't speculation, it has been announced by the BEA investigators.

While I recognise that I haven't kept fully up to date with findings, having found the constant reposting of Bildzeitung headlines a bit too much to handle, to my uncertain knowledge, we do not have the flight data recorder. The source for the altitude setting, as I understand it, was Flightradar24. I'm open to correction on that.

1123heavy wrote: »

I personally didn't want to believe it as a person who views the aviation profession as their dream profession and couldn't contemplate how someone could do this after having achieved it. However it is now beyond doubt according to the BEA that it was a murder suicide, the report I imagine would include further background to his life, and the greater details of how he actually carried out his actions and what may have happened in the back, not why the aircraft crashed.

Unless of course you believe he was trying to take the passengers for a sightseeing tour of the Alps that went tragically wrong ?

It is probably unfashionable here but I tend to shy away from murder in this case. Manslaughter may be more appropriate. The difference may never be known but effectively it matters which was the bigger motivation, to kill 150 people, or to kill himself. People who are suicidal tend not to have the most logical view of the outcome of their actions.

This story is an utter tragedy in all senses of the word.

However, in the meantime, where the focus is on the mental wellbeing of airline staff, I think there needs to be less stigmatising and more support. If someone put their entire life into being an aviator, and the support for down times meaning that dream disappears, then maybe it is somewhat comprehensible that they might become suicidal. I don't know. One thing I have learned over the years that trying to understand the motivations of people who are suicidal is hard when they are dead.

There is a chronic stigmatisation of people with mental health issues. I'm not going to focus on depression (but if you haven't read it, there is a long living thread on the subject in After Hours by DeVore which absolutely should be read) or anything like that. A lot of people don't get help because help for mental health issues leaves marks on how people are perceived in a way that a broken leg does not. This thread is absolute evidence of that.

We just don't know what the sequence of catalysts was here, and it is possible we will never truly know because people respond differently to different stresses.

kona

Calina wrote: »

However, in the meantime, where the focus is on the mental wellbeing of airline staff, I think there needs to be less stigmatising and more support. If someone put their entire life into being an aviator, and the support for down times meaning that dream disappears, then maybe it is somewhat comprehensible that they might become suicidal.

I think you've highlighted another thing here especially as regards people and careers as pilots.
Take a look at the aer lingus cadet thread every year, it's Absoloutly mad, there's some people out there who are obsessive about being a pilot, to the point of sinking life changing amounts of money into it and feel doing so ENTITLES them to a career as one, despite perhaps just not being suited to it.

I think anybody who obsesses about anything to the point of it taking over their lives is leading a very unhealthy life. I don't know this lubitz chap, only can go on reports on him, but I get a awful sense that he felt he was ENTITLED to be a pilot no matter what, unfortunately that's not the case.

Pilot is a unbelievable career path and obviously is sought after but at the end of the day it's only a job, just like somebody swiping oranges through a till in tesco, it pays the bills.

smurfjed

just like somebody swiping oranges through a till in tesco, it pays the bills.

I always thought that it was slightly more exciting than that

Calina

kona wrote: »

Pilot is a unbelievable career path and obviously is sought after but at the end of the day it's only a job, just like somebody swiping oranges through a till in tesco, it pays the bills.

I don't quite agree with this. The average person swiping oranges through a till in a supermarket isn't earning quite as much and a till is a lot easier to operate than an aircraft. Plus, getting it wrong is generally not anywhere near as catastrophic.

A lot of careers attract people who do something for the utter love of it. A lot of jobs don't actually engender that love.

I'm not sure it's a safe comparison I guess. We can take risks with till operators that we can't take with pilots.

I also personally have a view on society killing people's dreams as they grow up. The vast majority of people I know wanted to be something growing up but I'm not sure customer service features highly there.

kona

smurfjed wrote: »

I always thought that it was slightly more exciting than that

I didn't want to say pineapples that's a bit too exciting

sjb25

Calina wrote: »

The source for the altitude setting, as I understand it, was Flightradar24. I'm open to correction on that.

They know this from the CVR they can pick up the sound of it being changed don't think investigators would rely on FR24

1123heavy

kona wrote: »

Take a look at the aer lingus cadet thread every year, it's Absoloutly mad, there's some people out there who are obsessive about being a pilot,

Yes it is madness and I have to admit I am one of those people currently putting anything and everything into trying to become a pilot. Only those with the aviation bug can fully understand it. Hence why it must have taken something very serious for Lubitz to have done what he did considering the guy was living his dream and at only 600 hours in, he was new to airline flying meaning he should be at the happiest point in his career. The pilots I've spoken to say it certainly is !

I think anybody who obsesses about anything to the point of it taking over their lives is leading a very unhealthy life.

I would agree if it was obsessive over a girl or something like that, but aviation IS the life for many people wanting to break into it, myself included. I think it's quite the opposite in that it's good to have something in life to work for and have something to keep you motivated and focused.



As an aside, it's worth noting that Lubitz trained at the Lufthansa academy in Bremen and Phoenix. Lufthansa pay for their pilot's training and getting a place on their training course is like gold dust. The chances of being successful boil down to you having a 1/200 chance of success according to a guy I know who trained with the Lufthansa cadets in Phoenix, considering how many people are desperate to be a pilot and if the Aer Lingus cadet pilot scheme was anything to go by I most definitely believe in it. This means that Lubitz was picked ahead of many others and just goes to show that you can do all the screening in the world, mental health issues can be hidden. This is part of the reason that I feel the way forward is to work with the pilots rather than against them as many pilots feel is the case when it comes to mental health. The company say they are there to support you through it, but deep down everyone knows your chances of being back in the cockpit are slim at best.


Apologies for the BEA investigator mix up, it is still however an official source that has substance to it, not some SUN newspaper BS.

kona

Calina wrote: »

I don't quite agree with this. The average person swiping oranges through a till in a supermarket isn't earning quite as much and a till is a lot easier to operate than an aircraft. Plus, getting it wrong is generally not anywhere near as catastrophic.

A lot of careers attract people who do something for the utter love of it. A lot of jobs don't actually engender that love.

I'm not sure it's a safe comparison I guess. We can take risks with till operators that we can't take with pilots.

I also personally have a view on society killing people's dreams as they grow up. The vast majority of people I know wanted to be something growing up but I'm not sure customer service features highly there.

There's not many jobs you can compare to a pilot tho, the point I'm making is both jobs at the end of the day are there to pay the bills.
Following on from that there are other jobs you can do, there's nothing stopping somebody behind the till doing a course and upskilling.
People need to see the bigger picture sometimes.

Obviously everybody would rather fly a a320 than operate a till!

All I'm saying is obsessing over a career is not healthy and pilot seems to attract quite a few people like this.

1123heavy

Flightradar 24 has absolutely no way of picking up what is dialed into the aircraft's altitude/heading systems. It can only see what ATC does, it's actual height and heading at a given moment, not what the pilot has selected to be the future figures.

smurfjed

They know this from the CVR they can pick up the sound of it being changed

Did they really say that??

smurfjed

not what the pilot has selected to be the future figures.

Are you sure??

Calina

1123heavy wrote: »

Flightradar 24 has absolutely no way of picking up what is dialed into the aircraft's altitude/heading systems. It can only see what ATC does, it's actual height and heading at a given moment, not what the pilot has selected to be the future figures.

I'm not say it's correct or not - I'm saying that claims regarding specific figures reportedly have come from there. They haven't, as far as I know, come from the FDR because to my uncertain knowledge, that was not yet found.

kona

1123heavy wrote: »

Yes it is madness and I have to admit I am one of those people currently putting anything and everything into trying to become a pilot. Only those with the aviation bug can fully understand it. Hence why it must have taken something very serious for Lubitz to have done what he did considering the guy was living his dream and at only 600 hours in, he was new to airline flying meaning he should be at the happiest point in his career. The pilots I've spoken to say it certainly is !



I would agree if it was obsessive over a girl or something like that, but aviation IS the life for many people wanting to break into it, myself included. I think it's quite the opposite in that it's good to have something in life to work for and have something to keep you motivated and focused.



As an aside, it's worth noting that Lubitz trained at the Lufthansa academy in Bremen and Phoenix. Lufthansa pay for their pilot's training and getting a place on their training course is like gold dust. The chances of being successful boil down to you having a 1/200 chance of success according to a guy I know who trained with the Lufthansa cadets in Phoenix, considering how many people are desperate to be a pilot and if the Aer Lingus cadet pilot scheme was anything to go by I most definitely believe in it. This means that Lubitz was picked ahead of many others and just goes to show that you can do all the screening in the world, mental health issues can be hidden. This is part of the reason that I feel the way forward is to work with the pilots rather than against them as many pilots feel is the case when it comes to mental health. The company say they are there to support you through it, but deep down everyone knows your chances of being back in the cockpit are slim at best.


Apologies for the BEA investigator mix up, it is still however an official source that has substance to it, not some SUN newspaper BS.

Don't get me wrong there nothing wrong with working hard towards something. There's a big difference between this and becoming obsessive and feeling your entitled to being a pilot forever and to hell with procedure.

kona

http://www.breakingnews.ie/discover/a-germanwings-pilot-made-an-emotional-speech-reassuring-passengers-hed-do-anything-to-get-them-home-safe-669350.html

Fair play to the captain here.

smurfjed

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Use_of_Selected_Altitude_by_ATC. Some of you might find that this will clear up some of your misconceptions.

weldoninhio

kona wrote: »

I suppose you'l just ignore this and keep on you solo run but just incase :

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/03/28/world/europe/germanwings-crash-andreas-lubitz.html?_r=0&referrer=

Note: everybody is referring to his mental health

NOT

Depression.

Catchy headline,

"Co-Pilot in Germanwings Crash Hid Mental Illness From Employer, Authorities Say"

Surprisingly there are no quotes to back the headline up. Who are the Authorities that said he hid his mental illness?? Where is the quote that states this?? It mentions an illness, and getting a second opinion. The story leads towards it being a mental health issue, but there is nothing from the quotes in the story to back the sensationalist headline up.

Mountainsandh

A reporter on a French channel mentioned that his flying papers had an extra letter or something, which meant he was to have regular checks on something. Sorry it's vague, that's the way I remember it, but she was implying health checks I believe.

Smurfjed, does your link confirm Flightradar would indeed have been able to see the preselected altitude for descent then ?

I have to say I am taking every bit of information with caution when it first comes out, but so far most points have been pretty much confirmed as the investigation goes on.

Tenger

kona wrote: »

I don't think his depression was a factor. I think there was another health issue.
Fair enough about your assessment maybe mentally weak was the wrong term to use and resillience was the correct one.
I still stand by my point. If you have mental health issues you shouldn't be near a position of responsibility like a pilot. Obviously if your treated and are ok again then there's no issue.

Roquentin wrote: »

the problem is anyone could be taken down with depression at any point. Someone they love could die and the depression could strike

Roquentin wrote: »

go ahead make your jokes, jokey joke maker

Kona acknowledged that his choice of words was not appropriate. No need to keep poking him. He had a mature discussion with 1123Heavy and Calina 2 pages back. This is how you response to an post you don't like, snarky comments are not.

His point is valid and he also notes that mental is not a automatic barrier once it is under control.
This is similar to many other professionals. I knew several people with mental health issues who work full time, I know another who cannot work full time but who is very active as a community volunteer.
"Mental Health issues" is a vast area and very few cases will present the same. As noted by other posters mental health issues can e triggered in a person and will affect 20-25% of the population, (if some of them don't realise it). The media and the investigation will focus on the F/O's mental health history and recent events. This will give a clearer picture of the incident.

On that note I'm sure we all know several individuals who have had or continue to have mental health issues. Doesnt mean they can't live pretty much normal lives.
*Speaking as a non-medical Mod, who has 3 siblings, 2 cousins and a close mate who are Pysch nurse's

Bill G

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Smurfjed, does your link confirm Flightradar would indeed have been able to see the preselected altitude for descent then ?

Yes indeed:

http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat

cppilot98

kona wrote: »

All I'm saying is obsessing over a career is not healthy and pilot seems to attract quite a few people like this.

Yes and I was guilty as charged. But I'm not depressive and my enthusiasm for flying, while it could be seen as obsessive. That was necessary to achieve my goal.

However the obsession with being a pilot came to the fore when I was involved with selecting pilots. One comment from my boss who, while he became a pilot always had a cynical view of us. He said he was 'sick of nerdy pilots'. I was a bit shocked at that at first because I never saw it that way. Somehow I had it in my head that pilots were switched on individuals who fulfilled the pilot cliché. I soon learned different. Some pilots should never leave the ground.

The Lubitz's exist amongst us. He got through. Most don't. But he did and now all of us are under suspicion.

bob50

I just wonder if anyone has thoughts on the the Pilot

Pure speculation here but ive been thinking what if he was getting grief from his bosses in germanwings for a while before he crashed the plane i.e getting chastised / reprimanded over some issue or diciplined for some reason or other ?

Naturally enough he would be annoyed as anyone would be and feeling grumpy and perhaps ended up bearing grudges against his bosses Then on the fatefull day thinking "i will sort them out"

Thanks Bob

pfurey101

Bill G wrote: »

Yes indeed:

http://forum.flightradar24.com/threads/8650-We-have-analysed-the-raw-data-from-the-transponder-of-4U9525-and-found-some-more-dat

Thats unbelievable :eek: For years theres me thinking ADS data (see below) was all that was received by base station enthusiasts for upload to servers:

Registration G-TAWU
Latitude 52°50.568N
Longitude 2°28.202W
Alt 14525' (-1920 fpm)
Flight no TOM1WD
Mode-S/ADS-B rep. at 00:04:42
Recd. at 150328 000442 JK
Heading 34°
Speed 360kts
ICAO id 406AE9
Route EGKK>EGCC
Squawk 7452
Type B738

All this other data is unreal. I wonder how long will it be before the likes of FlightRadar24 start to get silenced by the various authorities.

They currently do not display most military, they have "blocked" and plot triangulated flights that are 2 or 3 mins out from real time.

cppilot98

bob50 wrote: »

I just wonder if anyone has thoughts on the the Pilot

Pure speculation here but ive been thinking what if he was getting grief from his bosses in germanwings for a while before he crashed the plane i.e getting chastised / reprimanded over some issue or diciplined for some reason or other ?

Naturally enough he would be annoyed as anyone would be and feeling grumpy and perhaps ended up bearing grudges against his bosses Then on the fatefull day thinking "i will sort them out"

Thanks Bob

There's no evidence of that thus far. What we do have is a man who had issues with depression in the past and lately has had medical issues, unspecified but sufficient for the Doctor to issue a sick cert which was ignored by the man to the point that he tore it up.

It's worth pointing out that unless the Doctor is aware that the man is a pilot, or even if he is aware of that fact he has no input to the aeromedical people. As it happens my Doctor is an Aviation Medical Examiner, so if he realises I have a problem you can be sure he will tell Doc Natin in the Mater. But if he's just an average Doctor and I've gone nuts, no one will know.

That's what happened here.

weldoninhio

cppilot98 wrote: »

There's no evidence of that thus far. What we do have is a man who had issues with depression in the past and lately has had medical issues, unspecified but sufficient for the Doctor to issue a sick cert which was ignored by the man to the point that he tore it up.

It's worth pointing out that unless the Doctor is aware that the man is a pilot, or even if he is aware of that fact he has no input to the aeromedical people. As it happens my Doctor is an Aviation Medical Examiner, so if he realises I have a problem you can be sure he will tell Doc Natin in the Mater. But if he's just an average Doctor and I've gone nuts, no one will know.

That's what happened here.

From reading posts on other forums/threads, it wasn't a mental problem that the CP was being treated for, or signed off work for.

Mountainsandh

A toxicology report would also be interesting should some remains have been recovered.
You never know, a bad mix of anti-depressants with some other medication could have triggered or escalated some mental crisis in someone who had been stable, and I think it is important to understand and maybe highlight such side effects.

cppilot98

weldoninhio wrote: »

From reading posts on other forums/threads, it wasn't a mental problem that the CP was being treated for, or signed off work for.

So what was it? The point is that whatever it was, he killed himself and everyone else on board because of it.

Nesta99

Mountainsandh wrote: »

A toxicology report would also be interesting should some remains have been recovered.
You never know, a bad mix of anti-depressants with some other medication could have triggered or escalated some mental crisis in someone who had been stable, and I think it is important to understand and maybe highlight such side effects.

Very very unlikely as physial symptoms would be evident. Say somone is on SSRI's and then take a bunch or Tramadol as painkillers then seretonin toxicity is possible as Tramadol is an SSRI in itself - tremor, sweating, twitch and so on. Sedatives in quantityy (especially with alcohol but not in this case) would be very obvious too like nodding off and stopping breathing. Amphetimines...meh something like modifinal would increase alertness but not so sure about interactions. Maybe a booze binge the night before could lower mood as a depressant. We might just have to face that he was irrational due to medical but not necessarly mental cirumstances. Whats in med files would probably be enough not to need toxicology tbh

tharmor

A former girlfriend of the <SNIP> co-pilot Andreas Lubitz said he had long planned a spectacular and unforgettable event and told how she was scared by his erratic behaviour.

The unnamed ex-girlfriend claimed he had plotted for a long time to commit an act so terrible that his name would never be forgotten.

In have doubt if this is true.....disgruntled GF trying to get some attention....

keith16

kona wrote: »

All I'm saying is obsessing over a career is not healthy and pilot seems to attract quite a few people like this.

Not exactly doing much to support this argument by posting the below, are you?

kona wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/discover/a-germanwings-pilot-made-an-emotional-speech-reassuring-passengers-hed-do-anything-to-get-them-home-safe-669350.html

Fair play to the captain here.

You're extremely naive if you think a career in aviation is the same thing as a cashier - a job to pay the bills.

Clearly it's much more than this. It's a passion.

Gael23

One must really feel for the pilots parents. They will have to live with the knowledge of what their son did for eternity which is an impossible cross to bear.

mikeymouse

Keith16, the passion may wane a bit after a while.
with the prospect of endless one or two hour short-haul flights from one godforsaken
airport to another and back.
Luton-Kerry-luton-Knock-repeat

antodeco

Gael23 wrote: »

One must really feel for the pilots parents. They will have to live with the knowledge of what their son did for eternity which is an impossible cross to bear.

Especially coupled with the hatred the general populous have towards them, for something they didn't know. Angry mob against you, as well as losing your son.