Plane crash in Alps ### MOD NOTE 1st POST

Penny Tration

darkpagandeath wrote: »

It's not for me to judge your condition.

But as a general rule with bipolar as a condition. I would hardly consider someone suffering from Mania or hypomania that could also lead to psychosis to be of sound mind.

Again not judging your condition personally. It all depends on the person.

Just to clarify I have Friends who suffer from this, And Mania can get bad really fast.

Psychosis, thankfully, isn't a surety. I've never had it, thank god.

Mania can absolutely be extremely intense. With the right treatments, it's entirely controllable in many cases.

My point was to show that for SOME people, mental illness can leave them to not be of sound mind, but in just as many cases, people with mental illness are just as capable and coherent as you or anyone else.

Renegade Mechanic

OSI wrote: »

His flatmate. I assume it was done to protect his identity so he doesn't get hounded by the press looking to dig up dirt.

Well, I hope it works for him/her. All they have to do is look up housemates

Precious flower

zeffabelli wrote: »

I think it's becoming more complicated than that. To some extent with beheadings on the internet, the exposure now to violence from a very young age, we are all to some extent become immune to violence.

Thing is...we will forget his name. I can't remember the name of the guy at Columbine, can you?

They are becoming all too common now and soon enough we will wake up to the news and no longer be shocked when these things happen, because we will have become used to them.

In some ways these people in their own warped way want you to know how it feels to hurt. So they hurt the world. But one day and not far off....it wont hurt anymore.

Yeah, you're right. God, I just can't get it out of my head, thinking of those poor people and their last moments. They could hear screaming in the last few moments on the recorder It's difficult to stop thinking about it especially those students, 16 years of age, children really and two babies.....:(

Frito

I think people are confusing mental health problems like depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia etc with terms like insanity, or lack of capacity, which are legal principles.
You can therefore be mentally ill and lack capacity.
Or you can be mentally ill and retain capacity.
You can lack capacity for other reasons such as having a learning disability, dementia, acquired brain injury etc.

If you lack capacity, it could be due to a mental health problem. Just because you have a mental health problem does not automatically mean you lack capacity. In fact, in most legal systems capacity is always presumed unless otherwise demonstrated.

With respect to the aviation industry, I think pilots are more rigorously tested than surgeons or train drivers for example, as they have annual medicals (could be wrong though).

Tugboats

In the aviation forum thread everyone is pretending to be a pilot and on after hours everyone is pretending to be a psychologist . Boards:cool:

_Whimsical_

Frito wrote: »

I think people are confusing mental health problems like depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia etc with terms like insanity, or lack of capacity, which are legal principles.
You can therefore be mentally ill and lack capacity.
Or you can be mentally ill and retain capacity.
You can lack capacity for other reasons such as having a learning disability, dementia, acquired brain injury etc.

If you lack capacity, it could be due to a mental health problem. Just because you have a mental health problem does not automatically mean you lack capacity. In fact, in most legal systems capacity is always presumed unless otherwise http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?posts/578396.

With respect to the aviation industry, I think pilots are more rigorously tested than surgeons or train drivers for example, as they have annual medicals (could be wrong though).

Would you believe that you are indeed wrong on that point of pilots being rigorously tested? It was on the news this evening that their regular medical and checkups do not take into account mental health at all. They hope to change that in the light of these circumstances. Yesterday a spokesperson from aer lingus said that their pilots have an average psychological assessment before being hired but that they are never checked again in that regard. He said they were unusual in doing that assessment, that most airlines rely on the assessment pilots have when entering their initial pilot training course!!
He was asked if there were measures in place for an employee who was feeling suicidal our depressed. The answer was "yes, they can attend their gp".
Seems pretty inadequate to me although he said flying a plane would not be as stressful as driving a bus in traffic.

Tugboats

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Well, I hope it works for him/her. All they have to do is look up housemates

Dont be so naive. The housemate will be selling stories, appearing on talkshows and on celebrity big brother before the year is out

Renegade Mechanic

Tugboats wrote: »

Dont be so naive. The housemate will be selling stories, appearing on talkshows and on celebrity big brother before the year is out

Ohhh I dunno.. Me, personally would be gone to ground. I'd borrow money to change my facial structure and identity to get away from what he's done (assuming I have nothing to offer by staying, which I can't imagine this person would, outside of private investigations)

darkpagandeath

Nope you can be sure, Any strange action however none relevant will be pulled up as why he did this. Think it was the BBC news going on about he once flew a glider over where the plane crashed. Even though that is completely irrelevant as it was from when he was young and training in the area.

Wurzelbert

OSI wrote: »

His flatmate. I assume it was done to protect his identity so he doesn't get hounded by the press looking to dig up dirt.

interesting detail anyway…to even have a flatmate…are they so badly paid?

DellyBelly

I really wonder what airline companies can really do to prevenet mental people flying airplanes. Many people can get through these tests without anything being flagged. Its a really difficult thing to pick up. I dont know how I will feel the next time I fly. I hope I wont be thinking if the pilot is mental or something.

Slicemeister

Renegade Mechanic wrote:

Ohhh I dunno.. Me, personally would be gone to ground. I'd borrow money to change my facial structure and identity to get away from what he's done (assuming I have nothing to offer by staying, which I can't imagine this person would, outside of private investigations)

Why though? Unless he knew of a sick note that was being ignored, why should the house mate be ashamed to show his face?

Renegade Mechanic

Slicemeister wrote: »

Why though? Unless he knew of a sick note that was being ignored, why should the house mate be ashamed to show his face?

It's not so much a question of shame, more a question of avoiding what's likely to be relentless hounding by media.

weldoninhio

The story arc of this tragedy is pathetic and shows the power of the media.

First statement, he took a break from his training, which is perfectly normal.

Word breaks that he intentionally crashed the plane, suddenly we're reading that he was thrown off the course to get treatment, then returned.

Then there's a sick note found, it hasn't been released if it was a mental or physical illness, and the discussion is about whether someone with depression should be allowed certain jobs.

darkpagandeath

Slicemeister wrote: »

Why though? Unless he knew of a sick note that was being ignored, why should the house mate be ashamed to show his face?

This is another point, Realistically even if the house mate did know of the sick note. What where they supposed to do ? My first thought and most peoples would not be he would be going into work and killing 150 people. If he had a psychotic break for example most people close would know something is up. Same with the other pilot before he locked the door.

fryup

DellyBelly wrote: »

I really wonder what airline companies can really do to prevenet mental people flying airplanes. Many people can get through these tests without anything being flagged. Its a really difficult thing to pick up.

this is the thing, and they don't even have to have a history of mental illness

they could have had a heated row with the wife that morning and then go off the rails hours later in the cockpit....there's all sorts of scenarios in which it could happen

Aidric

DellyBelly wrote: »

I really wonder what airline companies can really do to prevenet mental people flying airplanes. Many people can get through these tests without anything being flagged.

Precisely. A person can very easily lie their way through these tick the box exercises. I'm not sure there is a 100% fail proof method to prevent these type of lone wolf attacks.

spurious

Anyone can have a moment of madness style episode. You don't need any mental illness history - that's what's so frightening about it all.

Frito

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Would you believe that you are indeed wrong on that point of pilots being rigorously tested? It was on the news this evening that their regular medical and checkups do not take into account mental health at all. They hope to change that in the light of these circumstances. Yesterday a spokesperson from aer lingus said that their pilots have an average psychological assessment before being hired but that they are never checked again in that regard. He said they were unusual in doing that assessment, that most airlines rely on the assessment pilots have when entering their initial pilot training course!!
He was asked if there were measures in place for an employee who was feeling suicidal our depressed. The answer was "yes, they can attend their gp".
Seems pretty inadequate to me although he said flying a plane would not be as stressful as driving a bus in traffic.

I suppose yes and no is the answer.
It is more rigorous due to medicals taking place at all (ie your surgeon doesn't need to have a medical every year even though s/he may perform hundreds of procedures) but it will hopefully include an assessment of mental health.

the nikkei is rising

spurious wrote: »

Anyone can have a moment of madness style episode. You don't need any mental illness history - that's what's so frightening about it all.

Very few people are capable of such blind malice even when having 'a moment of madness style episode' so it's not really that frightening at all.

Moreover, plunging a passenger jet into a mountain takes a lot longer than a moment and more dexterity than one would have in a blind rage and I believe more active participation than one would be willing to proffer in their deepest moment of sorrow.

bnt

According to a new report here, the hospital says Lubitz was being treated for a condition, but not a mental condition. Doctors were giving him sick notes, including one for the day of the crash, and he was tearing them up. The implication is that he had some serious physical condition, and was hiding it from the airlines. The prosecutors now have his medical files.

I have bipolar and have had manic and depressive episodes, though not for a few years. I would never take a job that is highly stressful as it would not be good for my condition, no matter how attractive the job is.
Even in my worst manic or depressive episodes when I have contemplated suicide, it never once entered my head to take other people's lives with my own.
You need a lot more going on than depression to commit such a terrible act.

Areyouwell

Tugboats wrote: »

In the aviation forum thread everyone is pretending to be a pilot and on after hours everyone is pretending to be a psychologist . Boards:cool:

But shure ya can't bate it for entertainment.

darkpagandeath

the nikkei is rising wrote: »

Very few people are capable of such blind malice even when having 'a moment of madness style episode' so it's not really that frightening at all.

Moreover, plunging a passenger jet into a mountain takes a lot longer than a moment and more dexterity than one would have in a blind rage and I believe more active participation than one would be willing to proffer in their deepest moment of sorrow.

The plane did not plunge it was guided down via programming of the auto pilot, This plan has a system that makes crashing it on purpose via pilot input via the stick impossible. He had to program a decent that would not trigger the collision detection for example before it was to late and the system was unable to recover. Hence the slow decent.

keith16

Tugboats wrote: »

In the aviation forum thread everyone is pretending to be a pilot and on after hours everyone is pretending to be a psychologist . Boards:cool:

pffft....you should see the sexuality forum.

Putin

Muff Richardson wrote: »

The ultra sensitive PC brigade will be agreeing completely with you.

Or maybe just people who possess a bit of cop on.

Whispered

I wonder if it was preplanned did he leave an indication of his intention. If he did it for notoriety he couldn't be sure the black box would be found and people would discover it was him. I'd imagine he'd want to be certain the truth would be found.

K4t

fryup wrote: »

this is the thing, and they don't even have to have a history of mental illness

they could have had a heated row with the wife that morning and then go off the rails hours later in the cockpit....there's all sorts of scenarios in which it could happen

Just on this, and for those reading the thread, when you say a history of mental illness, you could just as easily be saying a history of a broken arm; the key point is in the recovery and current state of the person's mind, or arm as the case may be. A history of mental illness can often bear no correlation to a person's current state of mind, the same way as a person who breaks their arm and makes a full recovery is not affected in life by the once broken but now fully healed arm. This guy obviously never recovered from his mental illness, or did not receive adequate medical assistance, and obviously had more serious problems than simply depression.

Wurzelbert

fryup wrote: »

this is the thing, and they don't even have to have a history of mental illness

they could have had a heated row with the wife that morning and then go off the rails hours later in the cockpit....there's all sorts of scenarios in which it could happen

yet this guy did have a history of mental illness before he even became a pilot and was still allowed to fly airliners…all control mechanisms failed and the regulations were clearly too lax…and that’s what scares me most of all…

K4t

Wurzelbert wrote: »

yet this guy did have a history of mental illness before he even became a pilot and was still allowed to fly airliners…all control mechanisms failed and the regulations were clearly too lax…and that’s what scares me most of all…

You do realise a history of mental illness often means just that, a history? Many people have had mental health issues throughout their lives, and have made full recoveries; doctors, judges, teachers, pilots, politicians, priests etc.


This guy did not have a history of mental illness; he HAD a mental illness.

Junkyard Tom

So now prospective pilots with mental health issues will do their utmost to hide them?

Wurzelbert

K4t wrote: »

[...]
This guy did not have a history of mental illness; he HAD a mental illness.

yes, turns out he did…and it seems he had a history of it already when he was allowed to become a pilot, a documented history like…what people around here and elsewhere like to ignore is the fact that some of that mental illness stuff is genetic…and when you have had it once, you are much more likely to have it again than someone who has never had anything...

Tarzana2

Zippie84 wrote: »

the 'minimum requirements' being what?

Oh yeah, I've seen the after photos for want for nicer phrasing.

K4t

Wurzelbert wrote: »

yes, turns out he did…and it seems he had a history of it already when he was allowed to become a pilot, a documented history like…

Of course he could have had a history of it when he was allowed to become a pilot, just as he may have had a history of a broken leg or a broken arm; and medical history would be documented yeah. The pertinent question is whether he had fully recovered from his mental illness when he was allowed to become a pilot.

what people around here and elsewhere like to ignore is the fact that some of that mental illness stuff is genetic…and when you have had it once, you are much more likely to have it again than someone who has never had anything...

Well yes, obviously a lot of mental illness is genetic, and incredibly common too. Without treatment you are more likely to relapse of course, but with proper treatment resulting in a full recovery, no, you are not more likely to have it again than someone who has never had anything.

smurfjed

This plan has a system that makes crashing it on purpose via pilot input via the stick impossible.

Wow what a great system, what is it called?

Penny Tration

Wurzelbert wrote: »

yes, turns out he did…and it seems he had a history of it already when he was allowed to become a pilot, a documented history like…what people around here and elsewhere like to ignore is the fact that some of that mental illness stuff is genetic…and when you have had it once, you are much more likely to have it again than someone who has never had anything...

Depression doesn't make you a homicidal maniac. Stop tarring mentally ill people like this. It's an extremely ignorant viewpoint.

smurfjed

This plan has a system that makes crashing it on purpose via pilot input via the stick impossible. He had to program a decent that would not trigger the collision detection for example before it was to late and the system was unable to recover. Hence the slow decent.

I would say that all of this is totally wrong. You really do have to do some research on the A320 EGPWS prior to posting this sort of message!

Gael23

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Guy is a terrorist and should be remembered as such as far as I'm concerned. Knowingly and deliberately killed 150 men, women and children.

You can say that all you like but that is a thought his parents will have to live with every day for the rest of their lives. That to me, would make life unbearable.

MarkY91

It makes me so mad that people can defend this monster. To me, it sounds equally as stupid as someone defending the 9/11 bombers

Sure Larry Murphy can't be of sound mind let's forgive and forget so...

K4t

Gael23 wrote: »

You can say that all you like but that is a thought his parents will have to live with every day for the rest of their lives. That to me, would make life unbearable.

His parent's feelings are not more important than the facts.

MarkY91 wrote: »

It makes me so mad that people can defend this monster. To me, it sounds equally as stupid as someone defending the 9/11 bombers.

Who exactly is defending him? From what I have read, people are defending those with depression who have NOT committed mass murder i.e. the overwhelming majority.

zeffabelli

My suspicion is they will start implementing mandatory reporting in certain professions, straight from the doctor to the employer.

Once again, mental illness is being scapegoated, adding to the stigma, because its easier to demonise depression than it is to face it that some people do evil **** sometimes.

gctest50

zeffabelli wrote: »

My suspicion is they will start implementing mandatory reporting in certain professions, straight from the doctor to the employer.......

then they just won't go to the doctor

what then ?

K4t

gctest50 wrote: »

then they just won't go to the doctor

what then ?

I imagine they would remain depressed..


People can't seem to distinguish between depression and a guy who kills 150 people, who also happens to be depressed. It's like saying a guy who shoots 150 people, who also happens to have a broken leg, should cause other people and police to be extra vigilant for people with broken legs, for fear they may shoot them in a mass murder.

One eyed Jack

zeffabelli wrote: »

My suspicion is they will start implementing mandatory reporting in certain professions, straight from the doctor to the employer.

There was a case last year in the media where a British woman who had applied to become an air hostess had her application turned down because she had a history of mental illness. It's hardly unheard of that certain careers would require that people be in perfect physical and mental health.

Once again, mental illness is being scapegoated, adding to the stigma, because its easier to demonise depression than it is to face it that some people do evil **** sometimes.

I don't think mental illness is being scapegoated tbh. I think it's important to acknowledge that depression will affect different people differently. I think it serves as a plausible explanation for the man's behaviour, and I think it's important to acknowledge mental illness as a possible cause in order to find better treatments instead of simply accepting that "sometimes people do evil shìt". The important question in order to prevent these kinds of incidents from occurring again is "Why?".

Depression doesn't make some people behave in certain ways in certain circumstances, but some people, it absolutely does. In this particular case, it could have influenced his behaviour. We have no way of knowing now whether it did or it didn't, but it's important to acknowledge all the factors involved rather than ignore the facts we're uncomfortable with.

RobertKK

Interesting article, seems he broke up with girlfriend the day before and told her the world would know his name.
Also other theories.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germanwings-plane-crash-the-facebook-images-that-hid-thesecrets-of-andreas-lubitz-10140230.html

PropJoe10

Its hard to believe that so many people just associate this with someone being depressed. I know a few people who have suffered from depression and I know for a fact that they would never consider killing 150 people, no matter how depressed they were. If its true about what Lubitz did, then what this guy had was way beyond depression. There's a big difference between depression and homicidal delusions.

zeffabelli

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There was a case last year in the media where a British woman who had applied to become an air hostess had her application turned down because she had a history of mental illness. It's hardly unheard of that certain careers would require that people be in perfect physical and mental health.





I don't think mental illness is being scapegoated tbh. I think it's important to acknowledge that depression will affect different people differently. I think it serves as a plausible explanation for the man's behaviour, and I think it's important to acknowledge mental illness as a possible cause in order to find better treatments instead of simply accepting that "sometimes people do evil shìt". The important question in order to prevent these kinds of incidents from occurring again is "Why?".

Depression doesn't make some people behave in certain ways in certain circumstances, but some people, it absolutely does. In this particular case, it could have influenced his behaviour. We have no way of knowing now whether it did or it didn't, but it's important to acknowledge all the factors involved rather than ignore the facts we're uncomfortable with.

I don't disgagree that depression can cause distortionist thinking. I do strongly disagree that it is the cause of this murder or any murder suicide.

Perhaps the media might take some culpability for giving these people the fame they so desperately want.

One in six people suffer from depression, the emergence of murder suicides from this pool is so rare, one can hardly conclude causation.

K4t

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There was a case last year in the media where a British woman who had applied to become an air hostess had her application turned down because she had a history of mental illness. It's hardly unheard of that certain careers would require that people be in perfect physical and mental health.

Don't know the specifics of that case, but I would strongly speculate that she was still in some way mentally ill - even if not clinically depressed. If not, they were essentially saying that it is impossible to fully recover from mental illness, and that a history of mental illness equates to being in some way mentally ill for the rest of one's life, which is ridiculous thinking, insane even.

I don't think mental illness is being scapegoated tbh. I think it's important to acknowledge that depression will affect different people differently. I think it serves as a plausible explanation for the man's behaviour, and I think it's important to acknowledge mental illness as a possible cause in order to find better treatments instead of simply accepting that "sometimes people do evil shìt". The important question in order to prevent these kinds of incidents from occurring again is "Why?".

Depression doesn't make some people behave in certain ways in certain circumstances, but some people, it absolutely does. In this particular case, it could have influenced his behaviour. We have no way of knowing now whether it did or it didn't, but it's important to acknowledge all the factors involved rather than ignore the facts we're uncomfortable with.

The only thing this case should change concerning depression, is a strive for better treatment and prevention methods of mental illness. Reducing and eliminating the stigma is the way forward, not perpetuating it as so many in the media and here are doing, whether inadvertently or not.

One eyed Jack

zeffabelli wrote: »

I don't disgagree that depression can cause distortionist thinking. I do strongly disagree that it is the cause of this murder or any murder suicide.

I think it's more important to acknowledge ill mental health as a possible cause than it is to ignore it as though it's completely irrelevant.

Perhaps the media might take some culpability for giving these people the fame they so desperately want.

It's only recently come to light though that infamy was another possible motivation, and again it's important to find out what could have caused him to think that way. Ill mental health is simply one plausible explanation.

One in six people suffer from depression, the emergence of murder suicides from this pool is so rare, one can hardly conclude causation.

At a statistical analysis level, no, it would be silly to suggest correlation implies causation, but at an individual level, ill mental health will affect every individual differently, and we cannot predict future behaviour unless we understand specifically cases like these where any number of influences could have caused the person to think the way they did and could have led them to commit the actions they did.

Simply writing him off as an evil suicidal-murder maniac, offers no explanation as to why he did what he did, and therefore simply accepting such a simplistic answer means we learn nothing to prevent people from doing something like this in the future.

zeffabelli

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Simply writing him off as an evil suicidal-murder maniac, offers no explanation as to why he did what he did, and therefore simply accepting such a simplistic answer means we learn nothing to prevent people from doing something like this in the future.

You are right, but hanging this on depression is an over simplification of causation.

In another post, I suggested that we are all becoming immunised to violence, and that soon, these events will no longer be shocking. We, yes WE, all of us, media, etc, are creating a petri dish in which there are fertile grounds for the creation of monsters.

When you write someone off as an evil monster....there is nothing simple about an evil monster in the first place. But this reductive scapegoating of mental illness, when people do do bad things, and sometimes for NO reason other than they can {example those kids who throw cats into bonfires on Halloween} it is too hard for us to process and accept that cruelty can be arbitrary, that we have cheapened life along the lines.

This was not error...this was not a man in the throes of grief who cocked something up...this man procedurely and with forethought calculated and planned this, because through death,,, he thought he would find immortality.