Plane crash in Alps ### MOD NOTE 1st POST

Wurzelbert

tara73 wrote: »

sorry, I don't want to disturb the discussion, it just made me laugh, the reason why he deleted the post: drunk...only in ireland..love it...

at least it’s honest…and haven’t we all posted stuff we wouldn’t have sober…

efb

Remember the taxi driver that killed the family in the UK. Depression is a mental illness. If it's severe enough to be signed off work- it can restrict you from certain activities and rightly so imho.

Tony EH

If it's severe enough that you have no respect for your own life, then that person needs another job and not one where he has control over events that can impact on other lives.

IngazZagni

It's no secret that many pilots in Ireland and around the World are working on zero hour contracts.

So you have a scenario where a pilot is feeling stressed or fatigued. There is a massive disincentive for this person to call in sick as by doing so they will not be paid a cent! If they do call in sick, then as they recover from the fatigue, they have a build up of stress from financial pressure.

This is a serious issue in the Aviation industry and it needs to be stamped out!

Wurzelbert

seems the fdr has been found

folamh

Lubitz researched suicide methods and cockpit door security in the days before the crash: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/germanwings-crash-second-black-box-found

Prosecutors’ spokesman Ralf Herrenbrueck said in a statement that Lubitz’s search terms included medical treatment and suicide methods. On at least one day, the co-pilot looked at search terms involving cockpit doors and their security methods.

“[He] concerned himself on one hand with medical treatment methods, on the other hand with types and ways of going about a suicide,” Herrenbrueck said. “In addition, on at least one day [Lubitz] concerned himself with search terms about cockpit doors and their security precautions.”

German prosecutors said personal correspondence and search terms on the tablet, whose browser memory had not been erased, “support the conclusion that the machine was used by the co-pilot in the relevant period”.

The_Kew_Tour

I have total sympathy for people who are suicidal or commit it, cause I had rough patch myself back in 2011 and it still scares me thinking of what I could have done to myself and family/friends after.

But this man is a murderer. Why take 149 people with you. I can't have a ounce of sympathy for him for all the families who are now suffering cause of his action.

Wurzelbert

fdr data confirms what we already know...lubitz re-programmed the auto pilot in order to fly the plane into the mountain...and he changed the settings a few times to gain speed, though that’s really just a detail...

AndonHandon

Lubitz you ****ing prick. Death was too good for you, you depressed ****.

Calibos

AndonHandon wrote: »

Lubitz you ****ing prick. Death was too good for you, you depressed ****.

[sigh]

The problem isn't depression, the problem is people with psychopathic personalities getting depression.

Bench Press

I getting tired of people making excuses for this nutcase scumbag, I hope he rots in hell. He has destroyed 150 families and took 150 people with him

AndonHandon

Calibos wrote: »

[sigh]

The problem isn't depression, the problem is people with psychopathic personalities getting depression.

"Let me just shoehorn my agenda into this thread".

No, please spare us.

Wurzelbert

Calibos wrote: »

[sigh]

The problem isn't depression, the problem is people with psychopathic personalities getting depression.

the real problem is psychos becoming pilots...that is where things went disastrously wrong years ago in this case...and i shudder at the thought of copycats in the piloting community...

Bench Press

I have suffered very badly from depression and anxiety in the past and often came close to ending it all, however not once did I consider taking a bunch of people with me, this lad is a mass murderer, nothing more.

Maximus Alexander

AndonHandon wrote: »

"Let me just shoehorn my agenda into this thread".

No, please spare us.

What's his agenda?

Baggy Trousers

Having an air steward in the cockpit when other pilot leaves is hardly going to prevent this type of scenario. If a pilot wants to commit suicide while the other pilot is outside the cockpit for whatever reason, he would easily be able to overpower the air steward and proceed surely?

weldoninhio

Bench Press wrote: »

I have suffered very badly from depression and anxiety in the past and often came close to ending it all, however not once did I consider taking a bunch of people with me, this lad is a mass murderer, nothing more.

100% agree. I dealt with depression a few years ago. When I was thinking through how I was going to kill myself I never thought of bringing anyone with me. In fact, I ruled out going in front of a train, car, lorry, bus as I didn't want some poor innocent person to have to deal with the fallout. I also ruled out hanging as I didn't want to cause a kid etc. the trauma of finding me.

The_Kew_Tour

most people who commit sucide feel they are worthless, a hazard and feel no will to live. thats why most do it by themselves. they feel they are hurting nobody.

what this man did was totally different.

its been well said now that he wanted make a name for himself, thats totally different to 99% cases of sucide

tara73

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Having an air steward in the cockpit when other pilot leaves is hardly going to prevent this type of scenario. If a pilot wants to commit suicide while the other pilot is outside the cockpit for whatever reason, he would easily be able to overpower the air steward and proceed surely?

you can't say this categorically. this depends again on the individual. from my point of view lubitz wasn't the kind of guy who would directly (with his own hands) physically harm a person. so an obligatory ccm in the cockpit, when the pilot is out, might have stopped him from doing it because he would have to bludgeon the person.

but then there are again individuals who don't have a barrier to physically harm others to do what they want to do, example the guy in the freight carrier who tried to bludgeon the others.

As it's so many times said here and in all the media, there is unfortunately not 100% safetety reachable, not only regarding flight safety, it's with everything in the world.
and again, there are over 3000 ! road deaths in germany in one year which the media hardly is interested in.
but because it's so many deaths in one go and all the speculation about the reasons, the attention a plane crash gets, from a logical point of view, is not in relation to all the car crashes or even deaths in households.

there need to be roughly 19 A 320 crashes a year to reach a number of 3000 victims, and that's only for germany!!
I know, not a nice calculation, but just to put it in perspective for once and for all the poor people who lost a loved one in a car crash or elsewhere and it goes unnoticed and with no big money compensation most of the times.

Calibos

AndonHandon wrote: »

Lubitz you ****ing prick. Death was too good for you, you depressed ****.

AndonHandon wrote: »

"Let me just shoehorn my agenda into this thread".

No, please spare us.

The agenda of not letting someone tar all those with depression with the simplistic brush you want to? that agenda?

Bench Press wrote: »

I getting tired of people making excuses for this nutcase scumbag, I hope he rots in hell. He has destroyed 150 families and took 150 people with him

Clarifying that he had deeper psychotic /psychopathic issues than garden variety depression is making excuses for him now?

darkpagandeath

Calibos wrote: »

The agenda of not letting someone tar all those with depression with the simplistic brush you want to? that agenda?



Clarifying that he had deeper psychotic /psychopathic issues than garden variety depression is making excuses for him now?

The amount of psychologists we have on here is amazing. What's garden variety depression now ?

FalconGirl

It looks like this pathetic piece of filth is getting the notoriety and attention he craved so much. Wikepedia page and all set up for Andreas Lubitz. Disgusting.

Calibos

darkpagandeath wrote: »

The amount of psychologists we have on here is amazing. What's garden variety depression now ?

Fcuk It, I give up. We're all fcuking homicidal maniacs a hairs breadth away from mowing all you normals down with our planes, trains and automobiles. :rolleyes:

One eyed Jack

Calibos wrote: »

The agenda of not letting someone tar all those with depression with the simplistic brush you want to? that agenda?

I don't think anyone's done that in this thread though. Some posters are trying to argue that not all people experiencing depression would do what this man did, and nobody has actually said any such thing, nor even suggested it.

Clarifying that he had deeper psychotic /psychopathic issues than garden variety depression is making excuses for him now?

Clarifying, or just guessing? We know for a fact that he was diagnosed with depression. I'm unfamiliar with anything "garden variety" about depression tbh as there's no such thing IMO - depression will affect every individual differently. Guessing or even insinuating that he had other psychotic / psychopathic mental health issues is trying to play down the significance of the fact that he experienced depression.

There's no getting away from the fact that his mental illness contributed to his mental state at the time, and in order to understand his reasons for what he did, you can't simply ignore something that's staring you straight in the face.

Calibos

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't think anyone's done that in this thread though. Some posters are trying to argue that not all people experiencing depression would do what this man did, and nobody has actually said any such thing, nor even suggested it.

I quoted another person doing exactly that!!

Clarifying, or just guessing? We know for a fact that he was diagnosed with depression. I'm unfamiliar with anything "garden variety" about depression tbh as there's no such thing IMO - depression will affect every individual differently. Guessing or even insinuating that he had other psychotic / psychopathic mental health issues is trying to play down the significance of the fact that he experienced depression.

There's no getting away from the fact that his mental illness contributed to his mental state at the time, and in order to understand his reasons for what he did, you can't simply ignore something that's staring you straight in the face.

A psychopath with their hyper normal sense of self preservation couldn't do this.
A depressed person couldn't do this.
It takes a depressed psychopath to do this.

Bench Press

he was a poisonous little toad, the apparent comment he made along the lines of "everyone will remember me" or whatever it was to his former partner, shows he was a spiteful, angry little **** with a grudge against the world to settle

keithclancy

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Having an air steward in the cockpit when other pilot leaves is hardly going to prevent this type of scenario. If a pilot wants to commit suicide while the other pilot is outside the cockpit for whatever reason, he would easily be able to overpower the air steward and proceed surely?

Wouldn't make it any easier either though.

Renegade Mechanic

FalconGirl wrote: »

It looks like this pathetic piece of filth is getting the notoriety and attention he craved so much. Wikepedia page and all set up for Andreas Lubitz. Disgusting.

Unfortunately the man killed 150 people in a second. The entire world will want to know about him. As long as its a neutral documentation, it really is the best anyone can hope for

One eyed Jack

Calibos wrote: »

I quoted another person doing exactly that!!

That poster mentioned Lubitz specifically though?

(For all the good that'll do, I dunno, beats me, but the same time they weren't extrapolating that out to anyone else experiencing depression)

A psychopath with their hyper normal sense of self preservation couldn't do this.
A depressed person couldn't do this.
It takes a depressed psychopath to do this.

The fact is a person experiencing depression DID do this, so there's no "couldn't" about it. The rest is just your own guesswork and what you'd prefer to believe is true, ignoring the facts to make it so.

darkpagandeath

Calibos wrote: »

Fcuk It, I give up. We're all fcuking homicidal maniacs a hairs breadth away from mowing all you normals down with our planes, trains and automobiles. :rolleyes:

I would save your Ire, If one actually read's the thread they would see I Suffer from severe depression have done from over 10 years. What is Garden variety Depression ?

tara73

Bench Press wrote: »

he was a poisonous little toad, the apparent comment he made along the lines of "everyone will remember me" or whatever it was to his former partner, shows he was a spiteful, angry little **** with a grudge against the world to settle

I think nobody is disputing this.
but he also was ill, mentally ill. it's the nature of human beings to be curious, so people here just trying to figure out what was wrong with this guy and trying to find a category and a name for his illness, which often isn't very easy to name a mental illnesses in one word.

I don't think any post here made excuses for the guy.

One eyed Jack

Calibos wrote: »

Fcuk It, I give up. We're all fcuking homicidal maniacs a hairs breadth away from mowing all you normals down with our planes, trains and automobiles. :rolleyes:

I understand you're being facetious, but can you understand having made the throwaway comment above, how anyone unfamiliar with depression might interpret it?

I mean, if you're going to make claims about stigmas and so on, and you want people to take you seriously, then making jokes about it probably isn't the best way to make other people take it seriously.

Nobody said everyone experiencing depression would be more likely to do anything like you suggested above, and by that same token, you can thankfully only speak for your own experience in that regard. Just because you personally wouldn't do something, doesn't mean it wouldn't be a contributing factor in someone else choosing to do something.


And, "you normals"? Seriously? Those are the kind of exclusionary sentiments that have me think "Oh Christ, whatever! :rolleyes:". Thankfully, not all people experiencing depression think the same way you do, and don't try to paint themselves as somehow "inferior" to "normals"...

Think I hurt my face typing that last bit tbh it's so facepalm inducingly stupid

JustTheOne

It's as easy for good people to resist doing bad things as it is for bad people to resist doing good things.

Freewill is an illusion.

Everything we do or think is out of our control, it's what are brains are made of and not a lot you can do to change it.

Why are some people just evil and others aren't?

smurfjed

you can't say this categorically. this depends again on the individual. from my point of view lubitz wasn't the kind of guy who would directly (with his own hands) physically harm a person. so an obligatory ccm in the cockpit, when the pilot is out, might have stopped him from doing it because he would have to bludgeon the person.

Sorry Tara73, you are making assumptions that you cannot back up, and you are wrong. In this case it was a benign descent, but it wouldn't have to be like that.

whatismyname

Just a friendly mention that 'psychotic' is in no way related to 'psychopath'.

'Psychotic' is related to 'psychosis' which is very different to psychopath .

Just because it bugs me when people confuse the two, and cos quite often the confusion of both terms only serves to stigmatise further by adding to the misinterpretation that so widely exists.

Especially when saying things like 'psychotic / psychopathic' so... so far away from each other in many levels.

Not being picky. It does matter. I've opted out of this thread for days, but felt the need to just mention this, but I'll go away now. Thanks

darkpagandeath

whatismyname wrote: »

Just a friendly mention that 'psychotic' is in no way related to 'psychopath'.

'Psychotic' is related to 'psychosis' which is very different to psychopath .

Just because it bugs me when people confuse the two, and cos quite often the confusion of both terms only serves to stigmatise further by adding to the misinterpretation that so widely exists.

Especially when saying things like 'psychotic / psychopathic' so... so far away from each other in many levels.

Not being picky. It does matter. I've opted out of this thread for days, but felt the need to just mention this, but I'll go away now. Thanks

People will depression can end up with Psychosis.

Calibos

It's theorised that a possible trigger was his career ending diagnosis of a detached retina.

A contributory factor along with likely psychopathy and depression.

Saying things like, "that sick depressed fcuk" without mentioning the other contributory factors is akin to saying, "that blind fcuk"

Don't you think that the 'psychopathic depressed blind fcuk' is a better descriptor?

I'm not saying 'depressed' shouldn't be used when describing him, I'm saying a more fuller descriptor including the word 'depressed' should be used.

Facepalm ing myself that I had to use analogies to try to get my post across to some people.

whatismyname

darkpagandeath wrote: »

People will depression can end up with Psychosis.

Of course. But maybe re-read my post again. I didn't say otherwise.

I was saying about psychosis and psychopathy being completely different things.

I didn't mention depression at all.

darkpagandeath

Calibos wrote: »

It's theorised that a possible trigger was his career ending diagnosis of a detached retina.

A contributory factor along with likely psychopathy and depression.

Saying things like, "that sick depressed fcuk" without mentioning the other contributory factors is akin to saying, "that blind fcuk"

Don't you think that the 'psychopathic depressed blind fcuk' is a better descriptor?

I'm not saying 'depressed' shouldn't be used when describing him, I'm saying a more fuller descriptor including the word 'depressed' should be used.

Facepalm ing myself that I had to use analogies to try to get my post across to some people.

Why do you want to silence the use of Depression ? People with depression can be suicidal. Are you saying it's a coincidence a person who could be suicidal due to depression. When presented with a situation that gave him the opportunity to carry out suicide. Committed suicide.

darkpagandeath

whatismyname wrote: »

Of course. But maybe re-read my post again. I didn't say otherwise.

I was saying about psychosis and psychopathy being completely different things.

I didn't mention depression at all.

I was pointing that out for the benefit of everyone.

whatismyname

darkpagandeath wrote: »

People will depression can end up with Psychosis.

and also on that note, people who've taken drugs (recreational or otherwise), people with urinary tract infections, with any mental illness, with a head injury, with all kinds of things can experience a psychotic episode.

But a psychotic episode is still completely different from being a psychopath.

Absolutely, completely different.

whatismyname

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I was pointing that out for the benefit of everyone.

Thanks for clarifying .

I obviously presumed that you were making a point that related to my post as you quoted it, but got that wrong.

Calibos

Calibos wrote: »

It's theorised that a possible trigger was his career ending diagnosis of a detached retina.

A contributory factor along with likely psychopathy and depression.

Saying things like, "that sick depressed fcuk" without mentioning the other contributory factors is akin to saying, "that blind fcuk"

Don't you think that the 'psychopathic depressed blind fcuk' is a better descriptor?

I'm not saying 'depressed' shouldn't be used when describing him, I'm saying a more fuller descriptor including the word 'depressed' should be used.

Facepalm ing myself that I had to use analogies to try to get my post across to some people.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why do you want to silence the use of Depression ? People with depression can be suicidal. Are you saying it's a coincidence a person who could be suicidal due to depression. When presented with a situation that gave him the opportunity to carry out suicide. Committed suicide.

See bolded.

I really do give up this time.

Apologies to whatshisname for causing a similar confusion and offence to that I'm trying to clear up myself!

whatismyname

Calibos wrote: »

Apologies to whatshisname for causing a similar confusion and offence to that I'm trying to clear up myself!

Hey - don't worry! Confusion yes, am a bit confused, but offence definitely not

darkpagandeath

Calibos wrote: »

See bolded.

I really do give up this time.

Apologies to whatshisname for causing a similar confusion and offence to that I'm trying to clear up myself!

Eye condition was after, As far as I know it was not the cause of his depression. could be a simple as on the wrong medication that hugely increased his suicidal thoughts.

whatismyname

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Eye condition was after, As far as I know it was not the cause of his depression. could be a simple as on the wrong medication that hugely increased his suicidal thoughts.

yes... but the depression may or may not have played a part... cos ultimately this is not just about 'suicide' or his 'suicide thoughts' but about his 'mass murder' and 'murderous thoughts'.

Many people commit murders (and no doubt mass murders) without being mentally unwell, perhaps they're just evil cnuts, which he may have been, and even if he did not have any mental health problems, he may have been an evil cnut, who could've gone on to do this is anyway.

This is me not me saying that his depression didn't play the part. I'm saying that he may have gone on and done it even if he didn't have mental health problems. We will never know.

And it's good to be able to note it as what it is, a mass murder, not just a suicide. Focusing on the suicidal thoughts is one thing, but this case is so, so much more than that.

whatismyname

whatismyname wrote: »

Hey - don't worry! Confusion yes, am a bit confused, but offence definitely not

Oops, sorry, just realised didn't relate to me. You'd mentioned someone called whatshisname, and I thought you were referring to me... but don't think we interacted, and obv different username, so I was just confused

darkpagandeath

whatismyname wrote: »

yes... but the depression may or may not have played a part... cos ultimately this is not just about 'suicide' or his 'suicide thoughts' but about his 'mass murder' and 'murderous thoughts'.

Many people commit murders (and no doubt mass murders) without being mentally unwell, perhaps they're just evil cnuts, which he may have been, and even if he did not have any mental health problems, he may have been an evil cnut, who could've gone on to do this is anyway.

This is me not me saying that his depression didn't play the part. I'm saying that he may have gone on and done it even if he didn't have mental health problems. We will never know.

And it's good to be able to note it as what it is, a mass murder, not just a suicide. Focusing on the suicidal thoughts is one thing, but this case is so, so much more than that.

Ignoring medical conditions that can lead to suicide is madness, You cant just say "But normal people".

whatismyname

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Ignoring medical conditions that can lead to suicide is madness, You cant just say "But normal people".

See, I didn't actually ignore the medical condition at all... was something very different that I did...

And again, good to keep the focus on the mass murder that it was, and not just suicide...

darkpagandeath

whatismyname wrote: »

See, I didn't actually ignore the medical condition at all... was something very different that I did...

And again, good to keep the focus on the mass murder that it was, and not just suicide...

One would not happen without the other.....