Plane crash in Alps ### MOD NOTE 1st POST

whatismyname

darkpagandeath wrote: »

One would not happen without the other.....

Yes, so why just focus on one?

It is much more than just a suicide. It is a murder-suicide, much more complex. I'm guessing people are posting here to discuss and perhaps for some people to better understand it. By just focusing on a suicide, rather than mass-murder-suicide, may just hinder the understanding.

By making all the conclusions people are making purely based on mental illness and suicidal thoughts, and their beliefs on them (in many cases very different from what proven evidence on both shows, but hey they're still their valid beliefs), but it's much more than a simple suicide, and it doesn't make much sense to just focus on the suicide aspect, just discuss the suicide aspect, and ignore the mass-murder aspect.

tara73

smurfjed wrote: »

Sorry Tara73, you are making assumptions that you cannot back up, and you are wrong. In this case it was a benign descent, but it wouldn't have to be like that.

?? yes, I'm making assumptions or better: pointed out a possibility. I never said I state facts. that's the nature of assumptions/possibilities, they could be wrong or could be right.
although you now are convinced I'm wrong...twisted logic??

and I don't know what your last sentence has to do with my post at all, as I was making the point it could have very well be he wouldn't have done what he's done if a ccm was in the cockpit.

One eyed Jack

Calibos wrote: »

It's theorised that a possible trigger was his career ending diagnosis of a detached retina.

A contributory factor along with likely psychopathy and depression.

Saying things like, "that sick depressed fcuk" without mentioning the other contributory factors is akin to saying, "that blind fcuk"

Don't you think that the 'psychopathic depressed blind fcuk' is a better descriptor?

I'm not saying 'depressed' shouldn't be used when describing him, I'm saying a more fuller descriptor including the word 'depressed' should be used.

Facepalm ing myself that I had to use analogies to try to get my post across to some people.

Calibos I get the eyeball analogy, I really do (one eye, hello ), and there's no question that his physical injury would also have played a part in his mental state, and could well have contributed to an even stronger manifestation of depression he was experiencing.

It's a bit mealy mouthed though tbh, and of course I can understand that a person experiencing depression would want to point out that they wouldn't do such a thing. A person with only one eye would probably suggest the same thing, that not all people with visual impairments would do what he did.

But the thing is, nobody suggested that anyone else experiencing those issues would do it, we're all merely speculating here about contributing factors, and like I said earlier - what's debatable is the degree to which each of these factors contributed to this man's mindset that could cause him to do what he did.

darkpagandeath

Just to clarify the crash was in 2014 and damaged his sight and hearing.

whatismyname

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But the thing is, nobody suggested that anyone else experiencing those issues would do it, we're all merely speculating here about contributing factors, and like I said earlier - what's debatable is the degree to which each of these factors contributed to this man's mindset that could cause him to do what he did.

What bugs me is that maybe it's bad wording on some people's parts, but some seem to not be speculating / debating, but concluding, and phrasing in a way that suggests they believe that certain things are definitely the case...

Not all are doing that, but definitely seems to be case with some... Think it's important that people remain open-minded to a multitude of possibilities, you know?

Some things may even be a little more likely than others... but yep, it's all still speculation

Calibos

whatismyname wrote: »

Oops, sorry, just realised didn't relate to me. You'd mentioned someone called whatshisname, and I thought you were referring to me... but don't think we interacted, and obv different username, so I was just confused

Sorry I got your screen name wrong. I was the one that first said psychosis/psychopathy I believe. That's what I was apologising for.

AndonHandon

Calibos wrote: »

The agenda of not letting someone tar all those with depression with the simplistic brush you want to? that agenda?



Clarifying that he had deeper psychotic /psychopathic issues than garden variety depression is making excuses for him now?

Did I try and tar all those who have depression with a brush? Assuming I was is an ignorant assumption on your part so you are advised to back down.

httpete

I for one would not like to be sitting on a plane with my wife and kids when there is a pilot with severe depression and suicidal thoughts at the controls and my families lives are completely in his hands. If someone is seriously thinking about killing themselves I simply would not like to be in a situation where they can take my family with them if they go through with it, and I would be powerless to prevent them.

I really can't believe some people are arguing that there is nothing wrong with having someone with severe depression at the controls. I saw some pages back someone said "should seriously depressed people not be allowed drive either?"...Yes they should not, there have been plenty of cases where a suicidal person drove their car into oncoming traffic, the most recent one being the Polish man in England who killed an Irish family. I remember another case in the States a few years ago where a depressed young man deliberately crashed into an oncoming car and killed a child in that, in fact decapitated her, yet he survived himself. He actually ended up getting jailed for murder as the prosecutor successfully argued that his actions displayed such a reckless regard for human life that he was in essence guilty of murder, even though his intention was to kill himself.

Postpartum depression is even legally recognized as a mitigating factor in many countries when mothers kill their children. Wasn't there a case in the last few weeks where a depressed mother was refused treatment and lay down on some tracks with her son/daughter?

I would imagine when you aggregate all the suicidally depressed people that kill their children/spouses/ex's/classmates/etc...before committing suicide you would find that on average a suicidally depressed person is much more like to kill another human than a non-suicidally depressed person. Of course, the vast majority just kill themselves, but compared to a regular person, they have a, per capita, much higher likelihood of taking people with them.

So yes, I would be very happy if suicidally depressed pilots were not allowed to be responsible for 100+ people on flights.

whatismyname

Calibos wrote: »

Sorry I got your screen name wrong. I was the one that first said psychosis/psychopathy I believe. That's what I was apologising for.

hey thanks, but honestly don't worry, my comment was a general observation, not aimed at you specifically. It's something I notice quite a bit generally, and I work in mental health training, and it's remarkable how little are known generally about both / how much misunderstanding there is... so thought it was worth just mentioning generally

weldoninhio

httpete wrote: »

I for one would not like to be sitting on a plane with my wife and kids when there is a pilot with severe depression and suicidal thoughts at the controls and my families lives are completely in his hands. If someone is seriously thinking about killing themselves I simply would not like to be in a situation where they can take my family with them if they go through with it, and I would be powerless to prevent them.

I really can't believe some people are arguing that there is nothing wrong with having someone with severe depression at the controls. I saw some pages back someone said "should seriously depressed people not be allowed drive either?"...Yes they should not, there have been plenty of cases where a suicidal person drove their car into oncoming traffic, the most recent one being the Polish man in England who killed an Irish family. I remember another case in the States a few years ago where a depressed young man deliberately crashed into an oncoming car and killed a child in that, in fact decapitated her, yet he survived himself. He actually ended up getting jailed for murder as the prosecutor successfully argued that his actions displayed such a reckless regard for human life that he was in essence guilty of murder, even though his intention was to kill himself.

Postpartum depression is even legally recognized as a mitigating factor in many countries when mothers kill their children. Wasn't there a case in the last few weeks where a depressed mother was refused treatment and lay down on some tracks with her son/daughter?

I would imagine when you aggregate all the suicidally depressed people that kill their children/spouses/ex's/classmates/etc...before committing suicide you would find that on average a suicidally depressed person is much more like to kill another human than a non-suicidally depressed person. Of course, the vast majority just kill themselves, but compared to a regular person, they have a, per capita, much higher likelihood of taking people with them.

So yes, I would be very happy if suicidally depressed pilots were not allowed to be responsible for 100+ people on flights.

Do you have your family wrapped in cotton wool and bubble wrap?? What if their bus-driver, taxi driver, postman, or heaven forbid, one of their parents develops depression??

If you were diagnosed, would you ring social services to come take your kids? You'd obviously be a risk to them, going by the above.

darkpagandeath

weldoninhio wrote: »

Do you have your family wrapped in cotton wool and bubble wrap?? What if their bus-driver, taxi driver, postman, or heaven forbid, one of their parents develops depression??

If you were diagnosed, would you ring social services to come take your kids? You'd obviously be a risk to them, going by the above.

Nah would probably take the doctors advice, You know given a sick note and not go into work and all that. Again those people did not have opportunity to take 150 people with them so slightly different kettle of fish. Tragic all the same, But not even in the same league.

Carry

Can you please all stop bickering about depression? With your half-cooked knowledge about this case on hand? Thank you.

All the evidence relies so far on paperwork from doctors and more or less educated conjecture.

Being diagnosed with depression doesn't mean you have one. It's so easy for doctors to just say "depression" when it's really something else. Depression is just so "fashionable" - and an easy way out for doctors who are confronted with some mental health problem they can't put their finger on. And with mental health you have to rely on what the patient is telling you and how he behaves.

According to press releases by the investigators Lubitz was last diagnosed with bi-polar disorder. Not a murderous condition in itself. But another "fashionable" name for something nobody really understands.

According to (released by investigators) another medical examination about his eye condition: It was diagnosed as psychosomatic, meaning there was no physical problem with his eyes, it was - to put it simple, though it's more complicated - all in his mind.

This man was apparently very intelligent. Not because he was a pilot but because he was very well aware of his condition (again according to the releases of the investigating team) and apparently managed to fool everyone, even visited (unusually for his age) numerous doctors with different complaints, supposedly not to leave a track of his full mental condition: He was looking for help and at the same time trying to hide that he needed it.

That - and everything else - has nothing to do with depression as everyone seems to know it.
That has everything to do with a so-called psychotic or in my personal opinion desperate personality with - perhaps - the side effect of depression. I would be depressed if I knew I had murderous thoughts ...
It might be something completely else. Nobody knows. The human mind is a mystery ...

By the way: All my information comes from several (trusted by me) German sources who cite the facts. I don't bother to give all the links. You can look it up on google.de plus name of the pilot.
That is if you speak German and don't rely on the dailymail, Joe.what's-his- face or whatever.

Calibos

AndonHandon wrote: »

Did I try and tar all those who have depression with a brush? Assuming I was is an ignorant assumption on your part so you are advised to back down.

I'm advised to back down am I? Would ya get a grip

AndonHandon wrote: »

Lubitz you ****ing prick. Death was too good for you, you depressed ****

If he was black and you said: Lubitz you ****ing prick. Death was too good for you, you black ****. Do you think you wouldn't have a black person call you out on it. Would you defend it by saying you didn't mean anything by it and weren't tarring all black people and sure he is black isn't he, its not technically wrong to say black.

Yes he was technically depressed. No one denies that. No one is saying its an excuse, no one is saying not to use the term depression. Some of us are just saying that to use the term depression only in isolation is very misleading.

Some of you are just arguing semantics but some do seem to think all people with any type of depression are capable of this which is frankly a ludicrous notion.

KERSPLAT!

Calibos wrote: »

I'm advised to back down am I? Would ya get a grip

Mod

Alright, let's move on please

One eyed Jack

Carry wrote: »

Can you please all stop bickering about depression? With your half-cooked knowledge about this case on hand? Thank you.

All the evidence relies so far on paperwork from doctors and more or less educated conjecture.


<snipped out the waffly nonsense bit>


By the way: All my information comes from several (trusted by me) German sources who cite the facts. I don't bother to give all the links. You can look it up on google.de plus name of the pilot.
That is if you speak German and don't rely on the dailymail, Joe.what's-his- face or whatever.

Riiiiight :rolleyes:

Carry

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Riiiiight :rolleyes:

Cool reply, highly intellectual, informed and enlightened.
Anything else?

One eyed Jack

Carry wrote: »

Cool reply, highly intellectual, informed and enlightened.
Anything else?

If there had been even the slightest hint of intelligent, informed and enlightened thought in your post, I would have replied in the same vein, but there wasn't, so there wasn't much point in arguing with your own conjecture now was there?

My post was simply to illustrate that you were engaging in the very same conjecture you accused other people of doing. There wasn't much point in addressing the nonsense waffly bit in between.

Carry

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If there had been even the slightest hint of intelligent, informed and enlightened thought in your post, I would have replied in the same vein, but there wasn't, so there wasn't much point in arguing with your own conjecture now was there?

My post was simply to illustrate that you were engaging in the very same conjecture you accused other people of doing. There wasn't much point in addressing the nonsense waffly bit in between.

Anything substantial to contribute? No? Just trying to be superior?
To quote you: riiiight :rolleyes:

One eyed Jack

Carry wrote: »

Anything substantial to contribute? No? Just trying to be superior?
To quote you: riiiight :rolleyes:

Isn't that exactly what you were doing when you wandered in to berate everyone else on what you thought was conjecture on their part? What makes your conjecture any different?

You clearly didn't bother to make any effort to read any of the posts before yours, because not only have we had posters contribute actual translations of what's been posted in the French and German media, but we've had experienced pilots explain in laymans terms the engineering of the plane, the science and the mathematics behind aviation, who gave a fascinating insight into how the electronics function, all sorts of great info. We've had professionals working in mental health who gave their opinions on various aspects of mental health, and we've had some fantastic contributions from posters who gave accounts of their own, personal experiences with mental health.

Your contribution was poor in comparison, and not just poor, but woefully ill-informed, and recognisably so. I would have liked to learn something, but there wasn't anything to learn from your post, unfortunately.

httpete

weldoninhio wrote: »

Do you have your family wrapped in cotton wool and bubble wrap?? What if their bus-driver, taxi driver, postman, or heaven forbid, one of their parents develops depression??

If you were diagnosed, would you ring social services to come take your kids? You'd obviously be a risk to them, going by the above.

There are very few professions in the world where 100+ lives can be totally dependent on one person. A suicidal pilot is guaranteed to successfully suicide if they take the plane down. A taxi-driver or driver is not guaranteed to die if they crash their vehicle, hence they can choose some other means of ending their lives.

People with depression 3 times more likely to commit violent crimes than the general public. From Oxford University, the top ranked University in the UK and the 3rd highest in the world.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11433207/Depression-to-blame-for-32000-violent-crimes-a-year-says-Oxford-University.html

Not surprising at all in my opinion given that when depressed people are not thinking rationally. And I include myself in that, I've had to take anti-depressants in the past. I didn't have any intention of harming anyone, like most other people who have depression. But there is a percentage of depressed who do want to engage in violence against others and that is why we don't want to take the chance of having 100+ lives dependent on the actions of someone from that demographic.