Plane crash in Alps ### MOD NOTE 1st POST

Wurzelbert

Awesomeness wrote: »

It was not suicide. It was mass murder

yeah, but also suicide, and that seems to have been the initial motivation for all i know...if it all turns out to be true anyway...

Awesomeness

barneystinson wrote: »

Mass murder / suicide.

Unless you think he hit the ejector seat button just before impact...

Obviously not. But this was not just someone looking to end their suffering it was an evil individual.

There have been many victims of suicide. This guy was no victim

vicwatson

Wurzelbert wrote: »

well, if the suicide theory turns out to be true,

Hardly Suicide,

Suicide is the taken of ones own life right?, if it's the Co-Pilots' fault then it can't be suicide as he killed everyone else also.

Thargor

This couldn't happen on Ryanair btw, a crew member always takes the place of the person in the bathroom, slightly embarrassing for Lufthansa that this is the case.

The_Kew_Tour

Plenty of the same pictures of him on social media now.

I really feel sorry for victims and their families who pain must be unthinkable, but I also have sympathy for Pilots family and Friends. They have to live with a different type of pain and may not get same sympathy.

nelly17

What I've been wondering over the last day is if planes have constant Comms to air traffic control (or do they??) why cant we have an intercept system where by the planes can be controlled from the ground similar to drones, where if a flight deviates from the planned flight path it can be guided remotely in.

Is this even technically possible? it seems if they can have radio comms vor vioce then they could have a real time data stream to fly the plane.

Thargor

nelly17 wrote: »

What I've been wondering over the last day is if planes have constant Comms to air traffic control (or do they??)

They dont.

seamus

Flipper22 wrote: »

I can't see how that could be the case unfortunately. Any clued in passenger would realise pretty quickly that there was something wrong.

Not really. The crew could have told people not to worry, that there's a technical issue with the cockpit door. People may not have seen or heard anything if the curtain was pulled. Even if you immediately jumped to the conclusion that the plane had been hijacked, you would self-censor and tell yourself you're being ridiculous.

Even on descent, nobody is going to believe that the mountains aren't supposed to be that close - we inherently trust that the pilot is making the right decisions - until you realise you're only 200m off the ground and nowhere near an airport.

Wibbs

seamus wrote: »

Looks like it's time to remove the locks on cockpit doors again. All it does is make it easier for someone to take malicious control of an aircraft.

Seems that way. If we add the death toll of this murderous bastard to the pilot of Egyptair 590 and possibly the Mayasia Airlines 370 that's a lot more passengers who lost their lives because of a crew member going insane than those killed by terrorists in the last 20 years. Then we had Ethiopian Air 702, where the co pilot locked the cabin after the captain went for a leak so he could hijack the plane and fly to Switzerland. Thankfully no tragedy at the end of that one.

While the terrorist threat is always there, I think we need to dial back somewhat on the post 9/11 hysteria and look at how some security procedures implemented in the aftermath of that need to be reviewed and fast.

colossus-x

nelly17 wrote: »

What I've been wondering over the last day is if planes have constant Comms to air traffic control (or do they??) why cant we have an intercept system where by the planes can be controlled from the ground similar to drones, where if a flight deviates from the planned flight path it can be guided remotely in.

Is this even technically possible? it seems if they can have radio comms vor vioce then they could have a real time data stream to fly the plane.

Regardless of whether it's technically possible or not it would be huge system to implement for an exceptionally rare event.

barneystinson

vicwatson wrote: »

Hardly Suicide,

Suicide is the taken of ones own life right?, if it's the Co-Pilots' fault then it can't be suicide as he killed everyone else also.

Can a thing not be two things?

Is it a mass murder? Yes.
Is it a suicide? Yes.

Polo_Mint

nelly17 wrote: »

What I've been wondering over the last day is if planes have constant Comms to air traffic control (or do they??) why cant we have an intercept system where by the planes can be controlled from the ground similar to drones, where if a flight deviates from the planned flight path it can be guided remotely in.

Is this even technically possible? it seems if they can have radio comms vor vioce then they could have a real time data stream to fly the plane.

Hacking?

Also it tends to be technical problems such as faulty readings which is why you need the pilots on the planes. You need Pilots instinct to judge if something wrong

ACLFC7

I don't think they'd remove the locks from the cockpit doors. I think a better solution would be to have a digital keypad lock on the outside that only the pilot/co-pilot knows.

(maybe someone suggested this before me,....I haven't read the whole thread)

Flipper22

nelly17 wrote: »

What I've been wondering over the last day is if planes have constant Comms to air traffic control (or do they??) why cant we have an intercept system where by the planes can be controlled from the ground similar to drones, where if a flight deviates from the planned flight path it can be guided remotely in.

Is this even technically possible? it seems if they can have radio comms vor vioce then they could have a real time data stream to fly the plane.

It's possible, but then what if you get a rogue ATC man who crashes the plane like the copilot did? Or even a terrorist attack on the control centre, whereby many planes could be brought down simultaneously?

No easy answers

Polo_Mint

ACLFC7 wrote: »

I don't think they'd remove the locks from the cockpit doors. I think a better solution would be to have a digital keypad lock on the outside that only the pilot/co-pilot knows.

(maybe someone suggested this before me,....I haven't read the whole thread)

Thats exactly what they have but it seems you can deny access with switches in the Cockpit

seamus

ACLFC7 wrote: »

I don't think they'd remove the locks from the cockpit doors. I think a better solution would be to have a digital keypad lock on the outside that only the pilot/co-pilot knows.

(maybe someone suggested this before me,....I haven't read the whole thread)

It's already there. But it can be disabled from inside the cockpit in the event that the pilot/co-pilot is being coerced.

The locks are an imperfect solution to a very rare problem. Which have created a second very rare problem even more devastating than the first.

There are doable things. You can make the cockpit completely enclosed - toilet and everything. So neither pilot ever has to emerge from out behind the locked door.

Or a system whereby staff can contact HQ to get an override code for the door that will always unlock the door no matter what.

But there are ways to abuse these too.

If the locks remain in aircraft as they are, this won't be the last of this kind of incident. Copycat suicides are very common.

not yet

ACLFC7 wrote: »

I don't think they'd remove the locks from the cockpit doors. I think a better solution would be to have a digital keypad lock on the outside that only the pilot/co-pilot knows.

(maybe someone suggested this before me,....I haven't read the whole thread)

What happens when a terrorist puts a gun to the pilots head.

Kylo Ren

not yet wrote: »

What happens when a terrorist puts a gun to the pilots head.

I feel as tho 9/11 has changed the thought of hijacking for people forever. Now everyone automatically assumes if it happens, they're about to be plunged into a building. So threatening someone with death would be rather redundant for most.

bjork

not yet wrote: »

What happens when a terrorist puts a gun to the pilots head.

How would they get the gun through airport security?

Streetwalker

not yet wrote: »

What happens when a terrorist puts a gun to the pilots head.

Very unlikely

1. The terrorist could get a gun on board

2. The pilot would give up the info as he'd know he was going to die anyway

scdublin

Thargor wrote: »

Heres another horrible one, all the passengers and crew dead except for one guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522

Oh god

Maximus Alexander

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

they will never get insurance without a human at the controls

If it could be proven to be more reliable than a human then the insurance would be cheaper if anything.

seamus

bjork wrote: »

How would they get the gun through airport security?

Streetwalker wrote: »

Very unlikely

1. The terrorist could get a gun on board

2. The pilot would give up the info as he'd know he was going to die anyway

A knife then people, FFS.

Airport security is not that rigourous, it's mostly for show.

BeerWolf

nelly17 wrote: »

What I've been wondering over the last day is if planes have constant Comms to air traffic control (or do they??) why cant we have an intercept system where by the planes can be controlled from the ground similar to drones, where if a flight deviates from the planned flight path it can be guided remotely in.

Is this even technically possible? it seems if they can have radio comms vor vioce then they could have a real time data stream to fly the plane.

This already exists, well... for the US military anyways.

Timberrrrrrrr

seamus wrote: »

A knife then people, FFS.

Airport security is not that rigourous, it's mostly for show.

Take a knife on the next flight you go on and let us know how you get on.

Alanstrainor

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Take a knife on the next flight you go on and let us know how you get on.

Funnily enough I've managed to make it on board flights with pen knives before. Left in bag by mistake. And not the tiny ones either. It's not beyond reason that one could slip through. Just look at security in Dublin for example, it's a shambles.

Tugboats

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Funnily enough I've managed to make it on board flights with pen knives before. Left in bag by mistake. And not the tiny ones either. It's not beyond reason that one could slip through. Just look at security in Dublin for example, it's a shambles.

In this day and age if you start waving a knife on a plane you're getting your ass kicked

BeerWolf

Tugboats wrote: »

In this day and age if you start waving a knife on a plane you're getting your ass kicked

I'll make sure to eat quieter next time with my cutlery...

Javan

nelly17 wrote: »

What I've been wondering over the last day is if planes have constant Comms to air traffic control (or do they??) why cant we have an intercept system where by the planes can be controlled from the ground similar to drones, where if a flight deviates from the planned flight path it can be guided remotely in.

Is this even technically possible? it seems if they can have radio comms vor vioce then they could have a real time data stream to fly the plane.

Any system that allowed a remote operator to override the pilot in charge would be a terrible idea.
Even a system that allowed a remote operator to set autopilot parameters would be extremely dangerous.

It is absolutely essential that pilots maintain situational awareness at all times. That includes the attitude of the plane, the ATC environment and the state of all aircraft systems. Anything that reduces or undermines that situational awareness is another accident waiting to happen. An external agent adjusting flight controls or autopilot settings would definitely fall into that category.

seamus

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Take a knife on the next flight you go on and let us know how you get on.

Any of these will do fine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP_rM-FzoAw
Tell me how airport security will detect that.

I'm not going to be a guinea pig though

Flipper22

seamus wrote: »

Not really. The crew could have told people not to worry, that there's a technical issue with the cockpit door. People may not have seen or heard anything if the curtain was pulled. Even if you immediately jumped to the conclusion that the plane had been hijacked, you would self-censor and tell yourself you're being ridiculous.

Even on descent, nobody is going to believe that the mountains aren't supposed to be that close - we inherently trust that the pilot is making the right decisions - until you realise you're only 200m off the ground and nowhere near an airport.

I don't agree.

5000 feet per minute is a very sharp descent, not catastrophic but much sharper than you would usually see from a commercial jet. If I was on a flight which was a couple of hours short of its destination and started to descend at that rate, straight away I'd be very nervous. I doubt there's a curtain in the Germanwings cabins.

I'd imagine the pilot/Cabin crew were reasonably calm for just a couple of minutes before they would have started panicking, shouting, banging on the door. You can smell fear from people in that situation. Combine that with the sharp descent, and most passengers will realise that they're in a very serious situation.

RIP all on board.

murpho999

Couldn't they just have a rule that there is always more than one person in the cockpit.

So if the captain has to go for a slash then a cabin crew member sits in the cockpit therefore ensuring the door can always be opened?

Tugboats

Flipper22 wrote: »

I don't agree.

5000 feet per minute is a very sharp descent, not catastrophic but much sharper than you would usually see from a commercial jet. If I was on a flight which was a couple of hours short of its destination and started to descend at that rate, straight away I'd be very nervous. I doubt there's a curtain in the Germanwings cabins.

I'd imagine the pilot/Cabin crew were reasonably calm for just a couple of minutes before they would have started panicking, shouting, banging on the door. You can smell fear from people in that situation. Combine that with the sharp descent, and most passengers will realise that they're in a very serious situation.

RIP all on board.

so why was there no panic on board until the last seconds?

Flipper22

murpho999 wrote: »

Couldn't they just have a rule that there is always more than one person in the cockpit.

So if the captain has to go for a slash then a cabin crew member sits in the cockpit therefore ensuring the door can always be opened?

That's general practice already in most airlines. We may well see it become a rule now.

leahyl

I just can't believe this - it is so so sad. If it was an act of suicide for the co-pilot he could have left off with taking another 149 human beings with him - incredibly selfish.

IngazZagni

murpho999 wrote: »

Couldn't they just have a rule that there is always more than one person in the cockpit.

So if the captain has to go for a slash then a cabin crew member sits in the cockpit therefore ensuring the door can always be opened?

This is the procedure for most airlines. So was its a case that procedures where not adhered to or is it that for some reason Lufthansa/Germanwings does not have this procedure in place?

Flipper22

Tugboats wrote: »

so why was there no panic on board until the last seconds?

They said there were no audible screams over the (cockpit based) voice recorder until the last seconds. That does not mean there was no panic on board.

It's perhaps a laudable attempt to give the families some comfort, but it's not plausible that the passengers only realised at the last few seconds that something was very wrong. I'm surprised people are arguing this to be honest.

leahyl

Flipper22 wrote: »

They said there were no audible screams over the (cockpit based) voice recorder until the last seconds. That does not mean there was no panic on board.

It's perhaps a laudable attempt to give the families some comfort, but it's not plausible that the passengers only realised at the last few seconds that something was very wrong. I'm surprised people are arguing this to be honest.

Agreed, the passengers had to have known that something was wrong - you can feel a plane descending when it's coming into land anyway normally, so the fact that this plane was rapidly descending....doesn't bear thinking about

seamus

Flipper22 wrote: »

5000 feet per minute is a very sharp descent, not catastrophic but much sharper than you would usually see from a commercial jet. If I was on a flight which was a couple of hours short of its destination and started to descend at that rate, straight away I'd be very nervous. I doubt there's a curtain in the Germanwings cabins.

Nervous, but would you spend 8 minutes screaming fear, I doubt it. You would naturally assume that there's a good reason for what's happening, that things will be OK and silence the voice inside your head that there's something really wrong. Unless you're actually a pilot.

5000 feet per minute isn't actually that fast a descent if you're travelling quickly. The aircraft was travelling at 400kts, about 700km/h and descending 1km per minute. That's a downward angle of about 7 degrees.

Duggy747

Quite likely an attempt to give some comfort to the families. Those passengers could've very well been freaking out for a bit longer when they saw the pilot trying to get back in / saw how low the plane was descending.

How helpless the pilot must've felt up against that door, realising what exactly was happening and was only a few feet away from the controls.

bb1234567

seamus wrote: »

Looks like it's time to remove the locks on cockpit doors again. All it does is make it easier for someone to take malicious control of an aircraft.

And having no lock doesn't make it easier for somebody to take control of an aircraft?? Its the exact reason the locks were introduced! This is a once off. Locks shouldn't be gotten rid of just because of this accident. And then if we take them off, what happens? Terrorist passengers take the planes, crash them, just like 9/11 and we'll say 'if only we had had locks on the cockpit doors'...

Wurzelbert

seems police are going through that guy’s flat right now...let's see if they find anything...

bb1234567

Duggy747 wrote: »

Quite likely an attempt to give some comfort to the families. Those passengers could've very well been freaking out for a few minutes when they saw the pilot trying to get back in / saw how low the plane was descending.

How helpless the pilot must've felt so helpless up against that door, realising what exactly was happening and was only a few feet away from the controls.

I was confused about that too. They said the pilot was crying out to the co-pilot and pounding on the door yet passengers seemed to take no notice of that. If I heard that Id be sh!tting myself

Buona Fortuna

Wurzelbert wrote: »

seems police are going through that guy’s flat right now...let's see if they find anything...

I'm amazed that all this detail is getting out and so quickly

I feel so sorry for the victims families. I can't imagine what they're going through, having to give DNA samples so the remains of their loved ones can be identified. It must be a living hell.

I feel especially sorry for the co-pilots family. Not only do they have the same bereavement as the other families, they have to live with the knowledge that their dead son is a mass killer, and they can never even ask him why. What an awful burden.

Sand

What else are people going to do? Half of them would be too distracted to notice what's going on before its too late. Even those that do notice something is wrong aren't suddenly going to lose their minds: they'll try to remain calm for the children or others around them, they'll hope for the best or they'll simply be too stunned to accept what's going on and will refuse to believe it's happening.

ZiabR

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

I'm amazed that all this detail is getting out and so quickly

In this day and age, it is better to let the public know as soon as possible.

gramar

Is there no way to force a cockpit door open in an emergency such as yesterday's?

seamus

bb1234567 wrote: »

This is a once off.

It's not. That's the point. And unless a fundamental change is made to the system, more incidents like this will occur.

It's simply not a good idea for a single person to be able to exercise complete unchallenged control over the aircraft, whether that's a terrorist or one of the pilots.

Terrorist passengers take the planes, crash them, just like 9/11 and we'll say 'if only we had had locks on the cockpit doors'...

The primary cause of 9/11 was a failure on the part of the US authorities to take domestic terrorism seriously. Even if there were locks on the doors that day I can guarantee you the pilots would have opened them when passengers started being butchered.
Yes, it seemed like a good idea at the time - common sense, even. But now it's been proven to us that perhaps it's not a simple or common sense thing to do.

Flipper22

seamus wrote: »

Nervous, but would you spend 8 minutes screaming fear, I doubt it. You would naturally assume that there's a good reason for what's happening, that things will be OK and silence the voice inside your head that there's something really wrong. Unless you're actually a pilot.

Not 8 minutes, but probably five.

I'm not a pilot, but I am a bit of an aviation nerd, and I fly between Ireland and England every couple of weeks. My thought processes in that situation would be:

Nerves at a sharp and unscheduled descent, but not panic, assuming that there's a good reason as you say. However you then see the pilot outside the cockpit, and it's immediately obvious he can't get back in. That's when I would be seriously worried. Once the banging and shouting starts, you realise that you're in a potentially lethal situation. Obviously you're still hoping things will turn out OK, and only realise you're definitely going to die circa 30 seconds before impact in this case. That's when it becomes impossible for the plane to pull out of the dive in time in this case.