Investors ruining chances for First Time Buyers - regulations?

stevedublin

Graham wrote: »

That's what appears to upset some people.

Not true - what upsets people is that cash investors are getting preference over ordinary citizens who have to work for a living and get a mortgage to buy their own home.
(even where the cash investors pay less for the same property)

Graham

stevedublin wrote: »

Not true - what upsets people is that cash investors are getting preference over ordinary citizens who have to work for a living and get a mortgage to buy their own home.
(even where the cash investors pay less for the same property)

What's happening is sellers have the freedom to set their own criteria when comparing offers. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

I can't help that think some of the posters who are upset with this would have an entirely different outlook if they were selling.

The Spider

Graham wrote: »

What's happening is sellers have the freedom to set their own criteria when comparing offers. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

I can't help that think some of the posters who are upset with this would have an entirely different outlook if they were selling.

Yup, they sure would I can't see anyone being prepared to wait possibly six months for a sale they could have that day.

lima

Graham wrote: »

What's happening is sellers have the freedom to set their own criteria when comparing offers. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

I can't help that think some of the posters who are upset with this would have an entirely different outlook if they were selling.

It's not their fault as sellers are money hungry when they are selling. If I was selling a property I would prefer to sell to a FTB over an old investor person and would probably take the risk that their finance will come through

But as a societal issue it is concerning when young people, with jobs and just starting out on their own, cannot get an opportunity due to speculators who themselves got an extra hand in terms of things like children's allowance, MIR, etc.

The Spider

lima wrote: »

It's not their fault as sellers are money hungry when they are selling. If I was selling a property I would prefer to sell to a FTB over an old investor person and would probably take the risk that their finance will come through

Yeah sure you would :rolleyes: what if you were looking to buy or trade up, and the only way you can do that is sell your current place as quickly as possible, or your target property may be bought by someone else.

Sorry don't buy it for a second, if you were trading up or down you'd look to secure the biggest sale immediately.

Graham

lima wrote: »

It's not their fault as sellers are money hungry when they are selling. If I was selling a property I would prefer to sell to a FTB over an old investor person and would probably take the risk that their finance will come through.

It is good that we live in a society where you have the freedom to make that choice.

lima wrote: »

But as a societal issue it is concerning when young people, with jobs and just starting out on their own, cannot get an opportunity

Fair point, we should be looking at how to increase supply to address that.

lima wrote: »

due to speculators who themselves got an extra hand in terms of things like children's allowance, MIR, etc.

I don't think it would be unfair to say that's a bit of a stretch.

lima

The Spider wrote: »

Yeah sure you would :rolleyes: what if you were looking to buy or trade up, and the only way you can do that is sell your current place as quickly as possible, or your target property may be bought by someone else.

Sorry don't buy it for a second, if you were trading up or down you'd look to secure the biggest sale immediately.

Ok if you were in a chain I guess so

I'm not saying that sellers can be told what to do, but something could be done to distort the distorted market to level it out so that the people who need help get help over people just in it for the $$$

NewDirection

lima wrote: »

Why does the state give incentives for having children and getting married? Something to do with looking after the people?

Why does the state stop short of giving incentives for citizens looking for their first home?

It's a little bit inconsistent and sad to see. Perhaps there should be some incentives for people purchasing their first PPR and more tax for investors.

Capitalism doesn't come into play in other aspects of housing (lack or repossessions) so why should it come into play in an area that disadvantages young people?

The state does give incentives to citizens looking for their first home.

The argument is A: 'person with mortgage' vs B: 'cash buyer' when buying a house.

You seem to intermittently call group A FTBer and group B investor to suit your argument. In reality investors and FTBers are going to both be in group A (ie. taking out mortgages).

If I was selling a house, I wouldn't see a difference between cash buyer or mortgage approved buyer as long as I had confidence that they were approved. The only group I'd be wary of is the second time buyer who's waiting to sell their own house. They are also citizens of the state and in a worse position that FTBer, but nobody is suggesting they should get help from the state.

Graham

lima wrote: »

Ok if you were in a chain I guess so

I'm not saying that sellers can be told what to do, but something could be done to distort the distorted market to level it out so that the people who need help get help over people just in it for the $$$

What happens to the renters who would have lived in the investment properties without the intervention of your anti-distortion distortions? Why should renters suffer because someone is wealthy enough to buy a property? That hardly sounds fair.

lima

Graham wrote: »

I don't think it would be unfair to say that's a bit of a stretch.

It's true though, every viewing I went to last year was 90% full of 60+ grey haired middle class investors and 10% Google employees.. oh and the odd farmer bidding during the viewing!

Graham

lima wrote: »

It's true though, every viewing I went to last year was 90% full of 60+ grey haired middle class investors and 10% Google employees.. oh and the odd farmer bidding during the viewing!

And who's to say the 60+ grey haired middle class buyers hadn't just downsized, thereby freeing up a family home to the market?

NewDirection

lima wrote: »

Ok if you were in a chain I guess so

I'm not saying that sellers can be told what to do, but something could be done to distort the distorted market to level it out so that the people who need help get help over people just in it for the $$$

But if you distort the market to make it more expensive for investors to buy houses, you only drive up rent prices.
More expensive investments mean less properties are being bought to rent. Less supply in the rental market drives up prices, until the point at which the investor can overcome the distorted government costs and make the investment profitable again.

Just leave the market regulate itself and you get a good steady rent to house value relationship.

anncoates

This forum really does prove again and again that for 95% of the people that post here, all a 'functioning market' means is a market that provides them with exactly what they want at a given time in their lives.

lima

NewDirection wrote: »

The state does give incentives to citizens looking for their first home.

The argument is A: 'person with mortgage' vs B: 'cash buyer' when buying a house.

You seem to intermittently call group A FTBer and group B investor to suit your argument. In reality investors and FTBers are going to both be in group A (ie. taking out mortgages).

If I was selling a house, I wouldn't see a difference between cash buyer or mortgage approved buyer as long as I had confidence that they were approved. The only group I'd be wary of is the second time buyer who's waiting to sell their own house. They are also citizens of the state and in a worse position that FTBer, but nobody is suggesting they should get help from the state.

They already have a house, not sure if that's a worse position

I would guess that the majority of investors have cash and the majority of FTB's have mortgages

NewDirection

lima wrote: »

They already have a house, not sure if that's a worse position

I would guess that the majority of investors have cash and the majority of FTB's have mortgages

I would guess the majority of good investors have mortgages so that they can use the interest payments to reduce their tax burden. But don't let that ruin your nice simple black & white narrative.

lima

Graham wrote: »

And who's to say the 60+ grey haired middle class buyers hadn't just downsized, thereby freeing up a family home to the market?

Perhaps, but we just don't know.

I'm not sure that the huge amount of cash buyers from last year all traded down. Especially when you think about how houseproud Irish people are.

lima

NewDirection wrote: »

I would guess the majority of good investors have mortgages so that they can use the interest payments to reduce their tax burden. But don't let that ruin your nice simple black & white narrative.

No, I'm not going to let your guess ruin my narrative!

NewDirection

lima wrote: »

They already have a house, not sure if that's a worse position

Worse position in the eyes of the seller. i.e the seller would go for a FTBer with mortgage approval over a second time buyer waiting to sell a house nearly 100% of the time

lima

NewDirection wrote: »

But if you distort the market to make it more expensive for investors to buy houses, you only drive up rent prices.
More expensive investments mean less properties are being bought to rent. Less supply in the rental market drives up prices, until the point at which the investor can overcome the distorted government costs and make the investment profitable again.

Just leave the market regulate itself and you get a good steady rent to house value relationship.

The FTB's that buy property will move out of a rental and free up a rental property for someone else

NewDirection

lima wrote: »

The FTB's that buy property will move out of a rental and free up a rental property for someone else

Another assumption. The FTBer could well have been living at home / house sharing up to this point.

lima

NewDirection wrote: »

Another assumption. The FTBer could well have been living at home / house sharing up to this point.

Perhaps, but that is also an assumption

Graham

lima wrote: »

Perhaps, but we just don't know.

I'm not sure that the huge amount of cash buyers from last year all traded down. Especially when you think about how houseproud Irish people are.

I'm not going to let your guess ruin my narrative, they downsized and now a family with 4 small children are living happily in their new 4 bed house. The starter house they moved out of was bought by investors and is now rented by a working couple who live there happily with their baby.

lima

Graham wrote: »

I'm not going to let your guess ruin my narrative, they downsized and now a family with 4 small children are living happily in their new 4 bed house. The starter house they moved out of was bought by investors and is now rented by a working couple who live there happily with their baby.

Very good.

How many instances of this do you think happened amongst all of the cash purchases last year?

Graham

lima wrote: »

Very good.

How many instances of this do you think happened amongst all of the cash purchases last year?

I'm not going to start guessing, there's more than enough of that already in this thread.

Icepick

ardmacha wrote: »

Means testing the bus pass will have feck all effect on the housing market.

that's a silly simplification

The tax exemptions and all the benefits add up to a lot over the average length of retirement.
Also, there should be a natural pressure to trade down from a family house (in sought after areas), which is not happening because of the generous benefits. So the system has a very obvious and direct effect on the housing market.

delthedriver

lima wrote: »

Perhaps, but we just don't know.

I'm not sure that the huge amount of cash buyers from last year all traded down. Especially when you think about how houseproud Irish people are.

I am aware of a number of middle class grey haired 60 something's who have traded down to an apartment to reduce property maintenance overheads, improved security , while they spend much of their time in their holiday homes in Spain during the winter. Horses for courses!

MouseTail

Is it just grey haired small time investors people are peeved at? That seems ridiculous, if you want a target go after the huge real estate trusts buying up blocks. Or would that ruin the ageist narrative going on here?

delthedriver

lima wrote: »

They already have a house, not sure if that's a worse position

I would guess that the majority of investors have cash and the majority of FTB's have mortgages

Not necessarily. Some of the middle class silver haired 60somethings when downsizing have also helped their offspring finance their first property!

delthedriver

MouseTail wrote: »

Is it just grey haired small time investors people are peeved at? That seems ridiculous, if you want a target go after the huge real estate trusts buying up blocks. Or would that ruin the ageist narrative going on here?

It certainly appears to be the case on this thread! At least the grey haired middle class are investing the money in Ireland.


Perhaps people need to face facts, the housing market is taking on the image of our European cousins. In France and Germany it is quite common for people to rent a property on a long term lease. This has been brought
about by the involvement of large commercial institutions who buy up large numbers of properties to lease out.


Historically Ireland has an obsession with property ownership. Things are about to change due to market forces

lima

MouseTail wrote: »

Is it just grey haired small time investors people are peeved at? That seems ridiculous, if you want a target go after the huge real estate trusts buying up blocks. Or would that ruin the ageist narrative going on here?

See here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94811022&postcount=3