When did winning the 5/6 Nations become important?

joseywhales

Jesus ,when the budget bites....so if you are struggling financially drink more beer? I wonder what crap gets advertised now that people will roll their eyes at in 30 years. I'm guessing all reality tv and talent shows.

Conqueror

The 1974 final table was printed after the final round of games, but as a footnote: https://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/archive/1974/0318/Pg003.html
It does reference the fact that it was Ireland's first outright championship since 1951 but, for reference, it gets as much coverage as the semi-final of Division 2 of the Higher Education League between St. Patrick's, Thurles and St. Patrick's, Maynooth.

I think a factor might have been the space between matches. Ireland's championship finished on March 2, two weeks before the England-Wales and Scotland-France matches. Wales, having dominated ties against the English in the previous 15 years, would have been expected to win, while the Irish Times was more hopeful than confident of a Scottish win: https://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/archive/1974/0316/Pg003.html

Regarding 1982, the preview ahead of the match away to France got a half page, and mentions the possibility of Ireland winning it's second-ever Grand Slam, while France were lauded for winning seven championships in the previous 23 years, including three Grand Slams. https://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/archive/1982/0320/Pg002.html

Chivito550 wrote:

Was there a bit of an attitude at the time that losing to France didn’t matter as long as you won the triple crown?

I think it might be realism, more than anything. Ireland beat France four time out of five between 1972 and 1975 (there was an additional Test in 1972), but between 1960 and 1981, Ireland won five and drew three out of 23, with just the one win in France (1972), and that form was even worse for the rest of the century. I'm sure everyone involved were desperate to beat the French, but they were just out of our league.

prawnsambo

joseywhales wrote: »

Jesus ,when the budget bites....so if you are struggling financially drink more beer? I wonder what crap gets advertised now that people will roll their eyes at in 30 years. I'm guessing all reality tv and talent shows.

I think 'budget' refers to the government budget rather than the personal one. I'm assuming there was increased tax on booze, possibly spirits.

Chivito550

Conqueror wrote: »

The 1974 final table was printed after the final round of games, but as a footnote: https://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/archive/1974/0318/Pg003.html
It does reference the fact that it was Ireland's first outright championship since 1951 but, for reference, it gets as much coverage as the semi-final of Division 2 of the Higher Education League between St. Patrick's, Thurles and St. Patrick's, Maynooth.

I think a factor might have been the space between matches. Ireland's championship finished on March 2, two weeks before the England-Wales and Scotland-France matches. Wales, having dominated ties against the English in the previous 15 years, would have been expected to win, while the Irish Times was more hopeful than confident of a Scottish win: https://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/archive/1974/0316/Pg003.html

Regarding 1982, the preview ahead of the match away to France got a half page, and mentions the possibility of Ireland winning it's second-ever Grand Slam, while France were lauded for winning seven championships in the previous 23 years, including three Grand Slams. https://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/archive/1982/0320/Pg002.html

I think it might be realism, more than anything. Ireland beat France four time out of five between 1972 and 1975 (there was an additional Test in 1972), but between 1960 and 1981, Ireland won five and drew three out of 23, with just the one win in France (1972), and that form was even worse for the rest of the century. I'm sure everyone involved were desperate to beat the French, but they were just out of our league.

This is great stuff. Are you able to screenshot these in readable quality? I need a subscription to view them on the links. No worries if it’s too much hassle.

It’s interesting to see how the championship was viewed in previous eras. The first 5 Nations I watched was 1995, so I’ve no recollection of much from the amateur era.

Webbs

From a Welsh perspective through the 80s and 90s when I was growing up the Triple Crown and obviously the GS was a huge deal. However the championship not so much, cant put my finger on it exactly but I think the fact that there was no bonus points or points differences to decide the championship had something to do with it.
Its also the influence of media and especially the rise of americanisation of coverage whereby there has to be a winner even its contrived (nailing my colours to the mast here and say I really dislike the bonus point system but that ship has sailed now).

Chivito550

Webbs wrote: »

From a Welsh perspective through the 80s and 90s when I was growing up the Triple Crown and obviously the GS was a huge deal. However the championship not so much, cant put my finger on it exactly but I think the fact that there was no bonus points or points differences to decide the championship had something to do with it.
Its also the influence of media and especially the rise of americanisation of coverage whereby there has to be a winner even its contrived (nailing my colours to the mast here and say I really dislike the bonus point system but that ship has sailed now).

Is it not a bit odd though that for over a century this competition ran without any real interest in who actually won it? That seems to go against the idea of competitive sport I would have thought.

irishbucsfan

Chivito550 wrote: »

Is it not a bit odd though that for over a century this competition ran without any real interest in who actually won it? That seems to go against the idea of competitive sport I would have thought.

It would be odd if they weren't competing for something equally, if not more, important to them at the exact same time.

It's definitely not against the idea of competitive sport to be fully targeting a win in every single game (or at least the home nations games). The opposite if anything.

prawnsambo

Chivito550 wrote: »

Is it not a bit odd though that for over a century this competition ran without any real interest in who actually won it? That seems to go against the idea of competitive sport I would have thought.

I don't think that's what people are saying though. And you're forgetting that when it was the home nations, winning the triple crown was concurrent with a grand slam and championship. Obviously they aren't true in reverse (except for the grand slam), but that's how the championship came to be considered to be a bit of a consolation prize if you didn't win the slam or the triple crown.

Chivito550

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It would be odd if they weren't competing for something equally, if not more, important to them at the exact same time.

It's definitely not against the idea of competitive sport to be fully targeting a win in every single game (or at least the home nations games). The opposite if anything.

True that. But say you lost your first game to another home nations team. The slam is gone, the triple crown is gone. With the championship seemingly unimportant, what would teams be playing for in their final 3 matches (other than pride)?

prawnsambo

Chivito550 wrote: »

True that. But say you lost your first game to another home nations team. The slam is gone, the triple crown is gone. With the championship seemingly unimportant, what would teams be playing for in their final 3 matches (other than pride)?

In many ways they were stand-alone games. There used often be weeks between games. The 1970 championship started in early January and wasn't finished until mid-April. It was very rare that there would be two matches on the same weekend, never mind the same day.

irishbucsfan

Chivito550 wrote: »

True that. But say you lost your first game to another home nations team. The slam is gone, the triple crown is gone. With the championship seemingly unimportant, what would teams be playing for in their final 3 matches (other than pride)?

The craic

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The craic

Coincidentally, this was the same question and answer that convinced John Hardie to declare for Scotland.

prawnsambo

Speaking of Triple Crowns, I didn't see the lads with their Millenium Trophy. I assume they picked up their Centenary Quaich the week before.

penybont exile

I'm not sure I agree that winning the championship was not important "back in the day".

From my perspective growing up in Wales in the seventies it was always important to finish as top dogs come April.

The 5Nations was the only tournament the actually have a proper league table.

In Welsh club rugby the only tables were run by the Western Mail & the South Wales Echo. These ranked teams by % win rate over the course of the season. Obviously a very arbitrary measure as teams didn't play the same number of games and had different fixture lists in terms of the opposition. The Western Mail version took into consideration all matches whilst its South Wales Echo counterpart attempted to level the playing field by only including matches against certain clubs. In reality the Schweppes Cup was the tournament to win and that was only introduced in the early seventies.

So in contrast the 5Nations (with a nice rounded league table) was definitely a tournament to win. The GS (and or TC) obviously facilitated the win. Between '76 & '79 Wales won the TC four times. The GS twice. France also had a great team at this time .... typically the Wales / France game decided the title (76, 77 & 78).

Wales also won the title in '75 .... being denied the GS & TC by a very passionate Scotland team in front of over 100,000 people @Murrayfield. [That season saw a Wales team with 5 new caps scoring 5 tries to beat France in Paris .... possibly one of the greatest Wales performances of all time in this competition]

The 1974 comp is remembered in Wales for the non-try and the "blind Irish referee". John West was his name [I believe he passed away recently] .... great stuff this ..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U8MgSLaCz8