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Luas Red Line security issues mega thread (read mod warming in post #1)
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MrStuffins wrote: »While you're in thick traffic trying to get to work in the morning, i'm making it from Sandyford to St Stephens Green in 20 minutes.
The Luas is class when it's run properly. The Green Line is an excellent example of how you can have a great service, run efficiently when there is very little chance of the scumbag element trolling the carriages! The problems on the Red Line are societal problems. Luas could deal wit them better of course, but at the end of the day they cant control scumbags and their scumbaggy behaviour!
Agree totally..... I find the Luas very efficient and a great way to get into the city centre when there are no issues.
HOWEVER, the frequency of issues and the "scumbaggy" behaviour is what makes the Red Line a problem.. If the Red Line serves areas which are more prone to the "scumbags", then some form of action has to be take to address these types... Surely additional ticket inspectors alone would go a long way to removing the elements0 -
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Just to correct you. The Red and Green lines are not being linked. They will cross one another but will remain operationally independent.
This notion that the social issues that prevail on the Red Line are going to spread south onto the Green Line is totally wrong in my view, as I've said before.
The people that cause the problems on the Red Line are making exactly the same trips as they always did, but they used to be on the relevant buses. They just switched modes. This notion that when the Green Line is extended through the city centre that large numbers of individuals are suddenly going to change from the Red Line to head south along the Green Line is daft.
At the same time, the Green Line does have problems of its own, generally with kids running amok on trams as it passes alongside Ballyogan Road.0 -
The people that cause the problems on the Red Line are making exactly the same trips as they always did, but they used to be on the relevant buses. They just switched modes. This notion that when the Green Line is extended through the city centre that large numbers of individuals are suddenly going to change from the Red Line to head south along the Green Line is daft.
Yeah but when they were on buses they had most of them to themselves but now on luas they are intimating people id say alot of what goes on the red line is a bit exagerated. The green is also being extended to broombridge which from what i heard suffers from anti-social behavior itself.0 -
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Roosterreid wrote: »It appears a typical response from the security staff, that they are not in the least bit interested in actually dealing with issues such as this... issues, which have the potential to escalate pretty quickly into something more serious. I have witnessed the security staff on quite a few occasions turning a blind eye.
I would imagine since the stabbing incident they have been told to take a step back in these incidents in case they may have weapons. Which is fair enough I supose a few Gardai with pepper spray and truncheons or even real guns might not go a stray.0 -
Yeah but when they were on buses they had most of them to themselves but now on luas they are intimating people id say alot of what goes on the red line is a bit exagerated. The green is also being extended to broombridge which from what i heard suffers from anti-social behavior itself.
It will be interesting to see what happens when the Luas reaches Broombridge.
The Broombridge rail halt has been heavily vandalised for years, and has been unmanned for a lot of that time. The adjacent cattle sidings and the wide open area on the remains of Liffey Junction have become an ideal playground for the scumbag element there.
I'm hopeful that the construction of a the planned Luas depot and terminal at Broombridge will make the site less attractive to anti-social behavior, given that the area will be regularly monitored and occupied by depot staff.
The optimist in me is hoping that most of the traffic on this Luas line will be passengers transferring from the Western Commuter line to the Luas. It could be that there will be anti-social problems, but probably not across the whole green line.0 -
Hi all,
So thought I would let you see an email I recently issued to Luas and the response that came back.
Outgoing Email To Luas
Hi,
I have been a regular commuter on the Red Line Luas for nearly a year now and would like to provide some feedback on the dangers of this method of public transport.
My normal daily journey starts from Fortunestown and I travel as far as the Point; so I spend a lot of time on-board the trams.
Since Christmas (so only in the last few months), I have witnessed and been subjected to the following:
(1) Open drug use –junkies on the Luas injecting / smoking drugs
(2) Junkies stoned out of their mind – These are a regular occurrence and I have seen them unconscious on-board the trams; sometimes as individuals, sometimes as groups of 2 or 3. The security staff have been witnessed stepping onto the tram, seeing the junkies and then stepping back off again, so they do not have to engage.
(3) Junkies begging for money – This can be very intimidating and can occur from very early morning to late in the evening. I have been approached by junkies at 7am on my commute to work. In an enclosed environment, where the public can’t easily move away from the situation, this feels dangerous and hugely intimidating.
(4) Gangs of youths teenagers – Gangs of teenagers / youths are a very serious issue on the trams. They travel in what can only be described as ‘packs’ (like wild animals). They clearly have not paid for their journey and find it fun to abuse / intimidate and threaten people on the trams. I have witnessed them drinking alcohol on numerous occasions.
(5) A girl getting threatened that she was going to “get robbed” by some teenagers – This was a very intimidating situation and the girl involved clearly felt very threatened. She was using her phone to browse the internet (as a lot of people do) and a gang of 5 teenagers kept saying to her they were going to “rob her off her phone”. In this situation, I swapped seats with her in a vain attempt to diffuse the situation.
(6) Weapons – I have witnessed someone have a knife pulled on them at a tram stop.
(7) Fighting – Men fighting on board the Luas
(8) Stolen Car – A tram I was travelling on recently, got hit by a stolen car
I have not mentioned above, the issues with obvious groups of people who do not pay for their journey, the pickpockets or the more basic issues such as litter.
The above issues are somewhat of a snap shot of this dangerous journey. I pay my journeys through an annual tax saver ticket and actively welcome the sight of the ticket inspectors as they tend to weed out the trouble makers – however the ticket inspector presence is very limited. The security guards provide no benefit that I can see other than to be a presence. Security staff / ticket inspectors travelling beyond the Red Cow are very rarely seen. These issues are along the entire Red Line route, but are more prevalent from the Red Cow and on towards Saggart.
I report most incidents to the Luas (usually via Facebook), but as little / no action to address these issues appears to have been undertaken, I now don’t report.
There are numerous discussions on this issue on Boards.ie; please find one such link to an ongoing discussion: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057391290
The Red Line Luas is quickly becoming a dangerous place to be and I have recommended to many people not to use it, due to some of the issues above. I find myself using the service less and less, as it is not a matter of ‘if’ but ‘when’ something serious happens to me.
I would welcome the opportunity to discuss these issues with someone in senior management should this option be available.
Luas Reponse
I am writing regarding your recent Email. Thank you for taking the time to contact us and giving us the opportunity to respond. Your reference number is XXXXXXXX. Please quote this number should you wish to contact us further.
I am sorry to hear of your recent experiences on Luas and write to outline to you the steps we are taking to address this behaviour.
We have identified a number of groups that we feel need our attention. I will break them down below so that you can see how we are working to solve the problem that you refer to in your email.
Persons under the influence of drugs and or alcohol; we work daily with An Garda Síochána to address this issue and the security firm STT who are contracted to work on the Luas. Security is provided on the whole Red line from morning to last tram. Some and I certainly acknowledge not all addicts are in possession of a free travel pass and are therefore entitled to travel. Those not in possessions of a valid ticket and who are in breach of the bye laws are moved on by Staff, STT and or the Gardaí.
STT are a specialist transport security firm that Luas work with. They work the Red and Green Lines seven days a week. STT patrols are divided between sections of the line with concentration of patrols being on Luas Red Line. Their focus is to assist Luas passengers and staff at all times, to deal with incidents of anti- social behaviour and to remove persons who are loitering and or begging at the stops or on the trams. We find Luas security to be very effective. Their presence on the trams and platforms is reassuring to passengers and staff alike.
Children and teenagers; we work with many schools and community groups during the school term and summer break. Our message is always how to stay safe on board and around Luas but also how to behave. Respect your fellow passenger. Some examples of our school programmes are; Business in the Community Partnership with St. Aidan’s, Secondary School, Brookfield, Tallaght. This project involves staff mentoring children on the value of education; staying in school and the pearls of anti-social behaviour. We work with St. Killian’s N.S. in Tallaght too. Over the summer we will work for the sixth year running with Foroíge – Tallaght Youth Service. Over 1000 teenagers participate in the Luas Summer Challenge. Whilst I appreciate we are not reaching every child or school on the Luas lines we are actively engaged with many communities. The above are but examples.
Another measure we take is the Tram Watch initiative which concept is being rolled out across other transport providers. These initiatives sees members of staff; STT and An Garda Síochána team up and do blitzes on the Red and Green Lines. Checking tickets and issuing standard fare notices to those not in possession of a valid ticket, valid travel pass (checked in real time with the Dept. of Social Protection) and or breaking Bye Laws which include loitering and begging.
We also have an excellent working relationship with the Gardai and work with them daily. We meet with all Garda Divisions that cross the Red and Green lines. At these meetings the problems encountered by Luas passengers and staff are discussed and Garda support in matters is identified and action taken. Gardai travel on Luas in plain clothes and in uniform. Recent Garda operations have seen Garda support in the Belgard to Saggart section of the Luas Red Line and in the city centre.
In addition to law enforcement we are also working with Business in the Community; Back to Work Programme. This programme is about helping ex addicts try to find employment.
We are adopting a holistic approach to addressing issues of anti -social behaviour.
We believe in working in partnership with businesses, communities and schools. We seek to educate all on the advantages of Luas and travelling in a safe and friendly manner. It’s very much part of our approach to dealing with anti -social behaviour.
The above information I do hope reassures you together with the knowledge that we are committed and work in numerous ways to tackle incidents of anti social behaviour on Luas.0 -
Roosterreid wrote: »
Persons under the influence of drugs and or alcohol; we work daily with An Garda Síochána to address this issue and the security firm STT who are contracted to work on the Luas. Security is provided on the whole Red line from morning to last tram. Some and I certainly acknowledge not all addicts are in possession of a free travel pass and are therefore entitled to travel. Those not in possessions of a valid ticket and who are in breach of the bye laws are moved on by Staff, STT and or the Gardaí.
I just extracted one of the responses. Does this imply that because such passengers have a free travel pass then they are entitled to do what they please on the Luas irrespective of how it impacts on other passengers?0 -
Certainly NOT!I just extracted one of the responses. Does this imply that because such passengers have a free travel pass then they are entitled to do what they please on the Luas irrespective of how it impacts on other passengers?
They must behave in a manner that does not contravene the bye-laws or break the law.0 -
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To be honest the worst part of the red line is between Abbey Street Luas stop and Suir Road. The Inspectors have to put up with the worst of it0
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If you are attacked or intimidated by someone on the Luas and the security is there,then you should be able to sue the crap out of the Luas for failures of the security staff, unless they're a separate company etc..0
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The free travel pass is more trouble than it is worth. Skangers getting free transport whilst workers and normal people have to pay and put up with their sh!!e in the process.
My own view is that ultimately the line will be closed or heavily curtailed because it's only getting worse and it's only a matter of time before before it is dangerous to use. You can't be handing little scumbags free travel passes and stick an open transport system (to cater for those who won't pay) past their doors and then expect any different to what the line has become - a feral, junkie ferry in to the heart of the city.
It's not only the Luas itself - it's the northern side of the city center it also affects because that is where these people get off (and the children's court - more enlightened planning and foresight).0 -
Kermit.de.frog wrote: »The free travel pass is more trouble than it is worth. Skangers getting free transport whilst workers and normal people have to pay and put up with their sh!!e in the process.
My own view is that ultimately the line will be closed or heavily curtailed because it's only getting worse and it's only a matter of time before before it is dangerous to use. You can't be handing little scumbags free travel passes and stick an open transport system (to cater for those who won't pay) past their doors and then expect any different to what the line has become - a feral, junkie ferry in to the heart of the city.
It's not only the Luas itself - it's the northern side of the city center it also affects because that is where these people get off (and the children's court - more enlightened planning and foresight).
Sorry but this is just waaaaayyyy over the top. The free travel pass is not the problem because those "feral" (not my words, I believe using a word like that to describe other humans just means you're part of the problem) kids don't have even those, they just get on board because they know they can run off if security get onboard. They're never really any danger to anyone other than themselves either, just make people feel uncomfortable. It's the same hysteria about young people that most of us bore witness to from the other perspective when we were young ones trying to sneak a drink, or just hang around. Groups of young teenagers nearly always terrify adults for some reason.
Anyway, the idea that the incidents could lead to the closure of one of the busiest, and probably lucrative transport routes in the country is a ludicrous idea - at worst the situation will fester until declining numbers force the Luas operators to introduce stringent security. Imo the operators are more in touch than that, and will do something if pressure is correctly applied by politicians (wouldn't hold my breath), or media.
I'm not saying there are not problems to tackle on the red line, just wish people could lay off the hyperbole.0 -
They're never really any danger to anyone other than themselves either, just make people feel uncomfortable. It's the same hysteria about young people that most of us bore witness to from the other perspective when we were young ones trying to sneak a drink, or just hang around. Groups of young teenagers nearly always terrify adults for some reason.
i'm sorry but I disagree with your comments here. They are a danger to others both physically and mentally. Just because you and I can either ignore or at worst get a little scared of them, does that mean that older or more suceptible people shoudl deal with it too? For instance I know certain people with learning difficulties that would be terrified of that sort of behaviour and it would affect them and their quality of life severely. For them its much more than feeling "uncomfortable".
The Luas is a confined space...not a part of the street where they can be avoided (to look at your drinking analogy)
To much of the do good attitude is why they get away with it.0 -
The free travel pass is not the problem because those "feral" (not my words, I believe using a word like that to describe other humans just means you're part of the problem) kids don't have even those
They are feral. Do they deserve niceities? No. It's your attitude that is part of the problem and why the anti social behaviour issues are not dealt with in this country like they should be.
The Luas red line is the result of everything that is wrong with the city - bad planning, no security and a delinquent justice system.
The red line packages it all in to a single box and the delights can be seen every single day morning till night.0 -
i'm sorry but I disagree with your comments here. They are a danger to others both physically and mentally. Just because you and I can either ignore or at worst get a little scared of them, does that mean that older or more suceptible people shoudl deal with it too? For instance I know certain people with learning difficulties that would be terrified of that sort of behaviour and it would affect them and their quality of life severely. For them its much more than feeling "uncomfortable".
You're right, and I wasn't trying to suggest that they aren't problematic, I just meant that they're not assaulting people physically with some sort of regular frequency. I generally feel far less safe when it's a couple of much older, battle-scarred types than when it's those groups of early-teens.Kermit.de.frog wrote: »They are feral. Do they deserve niceities? No. It's your attitude that is part of the problem and why the anti social behaviour issues are not dealt with in this country like they should be.
The Luas red line is the result of everything that is wrong with the city - bad planning, no security and a delinquent justice system.
The red line packages it all in to a single box and the delights can be seen every single day morning till night.
How do you know how I feel about anti-social issues? I think this country is lax on them, and wish that would improve, but to call people "feral" just indicates to me that you're only willing to vilify and denigrate people, and are seeking a short-term solution that'll do nothing to fix long-term problems.0 -
Whatever the age group, the point is that these issues should not exist on a public transport system in a modern city.
Every day I use this system, along with thousands of others.... are there issues on every journey I make - of course not; but there are an alarmingly high number of times when things do occur.
I find the teenage gangs the worst as they are somewhat fearless and appear to have less respect of people's personal space and show little consideration of those around them - littering, foul language, fighting among themselves. I have seen them flashing knives and other weapons on quite a few occasions.
The 'security' guards are a joke... large men who do nothing to resolve anything I have ever seen happen, even when it's only a matter of feet away.0 -
Roosterreid wrote: »I find the teenage gangs the worst as they are somewhat fearless and appear to have less respect of people's personal space and show little consideration of those around them - littering, foul language, fighting among themselves.
Its not like that poses a threat to you sound a bit oversensitive0 -
Its not like that poses a threat to you sound a bit oversensitive
Said teenage gangs are known to Gardai and have carried out a number of savage attacks on other passengers usually in the process of relieving them of their belongings. There is no being over sensitive involved, these "kids" are dangerous.Glazers Out!
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Was on the Luas going from Heuston to Busaras earlier tonight and there was two nasty looking junkies(male and female) at Heuston, the male was harassing a woman on the platform trying to get money from her, Then the tram arrived and he did the usual roar along the platform for his pregnant partner who came out from hiding swearing and cursing someone who had obviously done something on her.
They got on the tram and the two security guards who were on the tram got off even though the junkies were pointed out to them. waste of money having those goons on the trams when they are afraid of their own shadows.0 -
Said teenage gangs are known to Gardai and have carried out a number of savage attacks on other passengers usually in the process of relieving them of their belongings. There is no being over sensitive involved, these "kids" are dangerous.
Couldn't agree more. The teenage gangs are probably the most antagonistic and physically abusive of all the types of people mentioned on this thread - I speak from first hand experience, having being viciously attacked by a gang of them around this time last year, while minding my own business walking past the Jervis Street Stop. They weren't even looking to steal anything, just a group of them walking around causing trouble - a few other people were attacked by the same group within the space of fifteen minutes.
I rarely use the Red Line Luas, usually just a handful of times a year heading from Abbey Street to Heuston Station (although now I'm more likely to hop on a bus to take me down the Quays), but I've always felt uncomfortable in my surrounding every time I've used the Red Line. And I've used the Green Line hundreds of times since it started running, as I live near enough to the Balally stop, and aside from a few rare minor incidents I've never seen the type of trouble you see on the Red Line.0 -
Its not like that poses a threat to you sound a bit oversensitive
I'm not in the least bit sensitive, but I am very aware of my surroundings and have an appreciation of when risks are present. Just because some people don't appreciate or notice risk, does not mean they don't exist!Also Starring LeVar Burton wrote: »Couldn't agree more. The teenage gangs are probably the most antagonistic and physically abusive of all the types of people mentioned on this thread - I speak from first hand experience, having being viciously attacked by a gang of them around this time last year, while minding my own business walking past the Jervis Street Stop. They weren't even looking to steal anything, just a group of them walking around causing trouble - a few other people were attacked by the same group within the space of fifteen minutes.
I rarely use the Red Line Luas, usually just a handful of times a year heading from Abbey Street to Heuston Station (although now I'm more likely to hop on a bus to take me down the Quays), but I've always felt uncomfortable in my surrounding every time I've used the Red Line. And I've used the Green Line hundreds of times since it started running, as I live near enough to the Balally stop, and aside from a few rare minor incidents I've never seen the type of trouble you see on the Red Line.
Well said!
Getting attacked:eek:.... lucky in some ways that you weren't seriously injured or worse. I have seen these gangs carrying knives on numerous occasions.0 -
Have I only had a few co-incidences, or have they increased security presence on the red line in the past few weeks? I have taken numerous short-ish Luas trips over the past week late in the evening or at night and noticed security guards present on a large number of those trams.0
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Cross post from the Public Transport thread in Ranting & Raving:Just had a delightful experience on the Red Line Luas this morning:
at James's two obvious scumbags got on, complete with pram and baby. He was about 6' 6'' and looked like he weighed about 7 stone, she was about 4' 10'' and about 6' wide and looked like she'd ate ya. Luas was full so he stands at the door with the pram and she went to sit on one of the metal accordion bits where the Luas turns. Can't have been comfortable.
Straight away they start roaring at each other then she gets up and goes for him. She's wearing a tracksuit that's about two sizes too small for her so down come the pants as she gets up and we can all see she's decided to go commando this fine morning and are 'treated' to the sight of her arse.
One guy in his 60s near them was the small and tough looking type and he was telling them to give over, they ignored him and kept at each other. When we got to Museum no-one else had bothered doing anything so I got off, ran up the platform to the front and knocked on the drivers window.
He opened it and appeared totally disinterested while I told him a couple were bating each other further back on the tram, then said he'd call the Gardai. Off the tram went and I walked down from Museum.
I normally get off at Jervis so I walked down there. Two more Luas passed me inbound, neither appeared to have to stop anywhere for a holdup further on so I have no idea whether the driver called the Guards or not, wouldn't have been at all surprised if he didn't from the impression I got off him.0 -
Was on the Luas going from Heuston to Busaras earlier tonight and there was two nasty looking junkies(male and female) at Heuston, the male was harassing a woman on the platform trying to get money from her, Then the tram arrived and he did the usual roar along the platform for his pregnant partner who came out from hiding swearing and cursing someone who had obviously done something on her.
They got on the tram and the two security guards who were on the tram got off even though the junkies were pointed out to them. waste of money having those goons on the trams when they are afraid of their own shadows.
Most city centres have junkies or some kind of undesribles particulary around transport hubs no point on doing anything0 -
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Apparently a tram (s?) wouldn't stop in Belgard last night because of anti social behavior.
Guess leaving certain areas without a tram service may push local people get the finger out. Works to an extent when DB cut services to areas.0 -
I used the Luas for 4 years going to from town to Tallaght and witnessed all sorts. Most of which has been mentioned by others in this topic. Over the 4 years, it just seemed to get worse and worse.
One time sticks out for me. One evening on my journey back to town, I had gone and got food and got back on the Luas at Jervis. I sat down where two junkies (woman and man) were sitting in the seats across from me. The woman moved over beside me and asked me to give her the food she had just seen me put into my bag. (I would add she actually have a sandwich or something in her hand already!) I refused, went to move seats and she attempted to kick me as a walked away. She was so out of it, she actually fell over. In one of the standing areas just after the seats was 4 of the ticket inspectors & 3 security men. Nothing was done or said to me or the junkie as I walked past them. When the Luas got to Abbey Street, the pair got off and as they walked down the platform the girl saw me and started screaming at me. The woman was about to get back onto the Luas but thankfully the driver just closed the doors! She was still screaming at how she was going to kill me etc through the doors! The Luas took off and I got off at my stop safely. Before all this happened, the ticket inspectors did do their ticket check and just let the junkie and her boyfriend/friend/whomever away with not having a ticket. It seemed like the inspector knew them as he referred to the guy by his first name. I was kinda shaken by it, it was pretty intimidating. You never know what these people may do when they are in that state. I should have just given her the food...
I feel so uneasy using the Luas. By the end of the summer, it's looking like I will be back using the line for work. I'm dreading the thoughts of it.0 -
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They should just close the red line luas altogether and make it a bus lane! That way all the non paying cretins wouldnt get on the bus. Simple!0
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