Big Story In Irish Racing

Harry Angstrom

Be interesting to see if Aidan decides to train a few more jumpers now that Joseph is going down the NH route, unless JP decides to give him the McCoy retainer

Great to see Ryan Moore taking the top job.

jimjamcos

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Be interesting to see if Aidan decides to train a few more jumpers now that Joseph is going down the NH route, unless JP decides to give him the McCoy retainer

Great to see Ryan Moore taking the top job.

He hasn't been given the job though?

Harry Angstrom

jimjamcos wrote: »

He hasn't been given the job though?

I doubt that Ryan Moore would consent to be the understudy for anybody until they got things sorted out. The fact that he's riding at The Curragh on Sunday says plenty. It's patently obvious that Joseph has weight issues and it's hardly going to get any better as he gets older - unless he adopts the Piggott diet of champagne and cigars.

jimjamcos

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

I doubt that Ryan Moore would consent to be the understudy for anybody until they got things sorted out. The fact that he's riding at The Curragh on Sunday says plenty. It's patently obvious that Joseph has weight issues and it's hardly going to get any better as he gets older - unless he adopts the Piggott diet of champagne and cigars.

Moore's no understudy, but neither is he the stable's confirmed no.1. The general consensus is that Moore is perfectly happy picking up top rides from Ballydoyle, and any other top operation, without being tied to a retainer. It's giving him plenty of freedom, not to mention success.

Andalucia

O'Donoghue and Heffernan must feel like some plebs - first day of the season and theyr'e not good enough to pick up a few rides - granted O'Brien had a winner, but the stable is usually slow to pick up pace - Moore must have been red-eyed after a tough day in Meydan and flight straight back

its a joke that Magnier and co put up with the nonsense regarding a stable jockey - Joseph barely does the weights on those he rides most of the time - I'd love to know how many instances of overweight he put up in Ireland last day - it will be a lot, very tolerant Irish stewards

no chance of him getting any AP retainer over jumps - would struggle to get rides outside of those his father trains for NH

Shemale

Did you see Today FM, being different were just horsing around and foaling people, I know straight from the 80s!

Their marketing team and John Duggan should get the hoof as I doubt I am alone saying there is neigh chance of me ever tuning in again.

Do they really think pretending they have news is going to attract people.

galljga1

Shemale wrote: »

Did you see Today FM, being different were just horsing around and foaling people, I know straight from the 80s!

Their marketing team and John Duggan should get the hoof as I doubt I am alone saying there is neigh chance of me ever tuning in again.

Do they really think pretending they have news is going to attract people.

+ 1 for that.

convert

Andalucia wrote: »

I'd love to know how many instances of overweight he put up in Ireland last day - it will be a lot, very tolerant Irish stewards

It really depends on who you are. There was a incident in the last 18 months or so where a rider wasn't allowed ride their parents' horse because they were putting up 2 or 3lbs overweight over fences.

BumperD

Shemale wrote: »

Did you see Today FM, being different were just horsing around and foaling people, I know straight from the 80s!

Their marketing team and John Duggan should get the hoof as I doubt I am alone saying there is neigh chance of me ever tuning in again.

Do they really think pretending they have news is going to attract people.

Lazy marketing/radio presenting.

Lt J.R. Bell

Andalucia wrote: »

O'Donoghue and Heffernan must feel like some plebs - first day of the season and theyr'e not good enough to pick up a few rides - granted O'Brien had a winner, but the stable is usually slow to pick up pace - Moore must have been red-eyed after a tough day in Meydan and flight straight back

its a joke that Magnier and co put up with the nonsense regarding a stable jockey - Joseph barely does the weights on those he rides most of the time - I'd love to know how many instances of overweight he put up in Ireland last day - it will be a lot, very tolerant Irish stewards

no chance of him getting any AP retainer over jumps - would struggle to get rides outside of those his father trains for NH

If I recall, he was a pound over weight for the Irish Championship last year.of course, that wasn't the reason Australia lost

kfallon

Andalucia wrote: »

O'Donoghue and Heffernan must feel like some plebs - first day of the season and theyr'e not good enough to pick up a few rides

Seamie Heffernan must pinch himself every day, totally average jockey yet his C.V. is the envy of most, won multiple Classics in Ireland and G1's here and in Britain. I'd say he can't believe his luck and is happy to continue as he is, usually picks up at least one G1 a season with a few other Listed/Group races.

tipptom

convert wrote: »

It really depends on who you are. There was a incident in the last 18 months or so where a rider wasn't allowed ride their parents' horse because they were putting up 2 or 3lbs overweight over fences.

+1,this has gone so far that AOB was delaring his horses that Joeseph was riding with the over weight last year,could have been something that was worked out.
You don't mind somebody arriving on the day and finding that they are 1 or 2lb overweight because the wasting didn't work out the day before but this is ridiculous that the stewards haven't come down on this serial overweight crack and now that JOB has probably gone over the other side the stewards might grow a pair now and put a stop to it.

paddy no 11

Feel sorry for Joey in all this. If it was easy he'd do the weight. Got to be tough for a young fella. Ok he's been born into it, but still can't be easy working for your old man in such a high profile manner.

tipptom

paddy no 11 wrote: »

Feel sorry for Joey in all this. If it was easy he'd do the weight. Got to be tough for a young fella. Ok he's been born into it, but still can't be easy working for your old man in such a high profile manner.

Between the O Briens,the Crowleys,McManuses et al,i wouldn't mind having that problem and he should be able 10st comfortably.

solwhit12

kfallon wrote: »

Seamie Heffernan must pinch himself every day, totally average jockey yet his C.V. is the envy of most, won multiple Classics in Ireland and G1's here and in Britain. I'd say he can't believe his luck and is happy to continue as he is, usually picks up at least one G1 a season with a few other Listed/Group races.

Heffernan is a lot better than Joseph IMO .very rarely does anything wrong.himself and colm should be riding all the horses when Moore can't.

Shemale

paddy no 11 wrote: »

Feel sorry for Joey in all this. If it was easy he'd do the weight. Got to be tough for a young fella. Ok he's been born into it, but still can't be easy working for your old man in such a high profile manner.

Why feel sorry for him, he should have switched codes last year as he has no chance of doing 9 stone.

I used to think he was great and have lost all the admiration with every race he was overweight, he is hurtling towards "complete arsehole" territory.

People saying his dad this and that, he is nearly 22 and should have the balls to say dad I cant do the weight so I am going to ride national hunt

Andalucia

tipptom wrote: »

+1,this has gone so far that AOB was delaring his horses that Joeseph was riding with the over weight last year,could have been something that was worked out.
You don't mind somebody arriving on the day and finding that they are 1 or 2lb overweight because the wasting didn't work out the day before but this is ridiculous that the stewards haven't come down on this serial overweight crack and now that JOB has probably gone over the other side the stewards might grow a pair now and put a stop to it.

that's the crux of the matter, stewards should not have tolerated the issue for so long - in two major races last year, he weighed in overweight by 1 to 2 pounds, cant help his race riding performance either when the weight is such an issue in the background

Joseph looks to be loosing the battle with the scales, unless they can get him on the nutritional regime that will lead to certain weight loss like a certain major pro cycling team, he is killing himself trying to make 9 stone which he can't do on a consistent basis anyway, must be tough to face up to the reality though that you can't ride these great horses anymore - being honest, the majority of apprentices of his era would have done equally as good a job as he has done given the quality of horses he is riding is often far superior - few races stand out as he has won owing to prowess in the saddle, but plenty stand out owing to weight or inability to ride a better race owing to wasting to make a weight

Moore will be more than happy to pick and choose as he has always done, handy enough to jet over on Sunday when the best flat Irish racing takes place anyway - Stoute stable job isn't what it was

Coolmore is a multi million pund operation, I believe Magnier and Tabor have realised that nepotism has no role in its operation - getting Australia beat last year was the final straw

pugw

Shemale wrote: »

Why feel sorry for him, he should have switched codes last year as he has no chance of doing 9 stone.

I used to think he was great and have lost all the admiration with every race he was overweight, he is hurtling towards "complete arsehole" territory.

People saying his dad this and that, he is nearly 22 and should have the balls to say dad I cant do the weight so I am going to ride national hunt

Why should he? If his old man and john magnier are happy for him to stay in the saddle whether he's a pound or so overweight surely that's there call! I think he gets a lot if unfair/bitter criticism, he's only a young lad at the end of the day!! If lads think he's an impediment to a particular horse then dont back it!

tryfix

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

If I recall, he was a pound over weight for the Irish Championship last year.of course, that wasn't the reason Australia lost

It's not the only reason he was beaten, it is the reason that he didn't win. Australia lost by 1/4l, 1lb weight over 10f is equal to more than 1/2l.

That 1lb overweight did serious damage to the reputation of one of the best horses that O'Brien has trained. The scenic route that Joey took cost the horse another few lengths. When you put them all together Australia wouldn't have been far off the 2l that he beat The Grey Gatsby by on his previous run. Joey's ride and overweight deprived the horse of a 129/130 rating which would have made him the equal of Galileo, it also deprived him of his 4th Gp1 win in a row and an undefeated season at middle distances.:mad:

BumperD

Ironic that Moore put up 1lb over weight on Easter last Sunday at the curragh.

Anyway, job should make the move to nh full time. You can only defy nature so long.

ancapallliath

Shemale wrote: »

Why feel sorry for him, he should have switched codes last year as he has no chance of doing 9 stone.

I used to think he was great and have lost all the admiration with every race he was overweight, he is hurtling towards "complete arsehole" territory.

People saying his dad this and that, he is nearly 22 and should have the balls to say dad I cant do the weight so I am going to ride national hunt

While atttempting not to insult you, but the fact you thought he was great and is now hurtling towards arsehole territory negates any argument you are trying to disprove

I don't think many ever thought he was great but it's absurd to think he is an arsehole.

I don't back him in the same way I don't back Spencer. But he rode Dundalk well and became somewhat of a job jockey.

There is the argument he was on the best horses but other trainers wouldn't have booked him if he was not able for the job

Lt J.R. Bell

tryfix wrote: »

It's not the only reason he was beaten, it is the reason that he didn't win. Australia lost by 1/4l, 1lb weight over 10f is equal to more than 1/2l.

That 1lb overweight did serious damage to the reputation of one of the best horses that O'Brien has trained. The scenic route that Joey took cost the horse another few lengths. When you put them all together Australia wouldn't have been far off the 2l that he beat The Grey Gatsby by on his previous run. Joey's ride and overweight deprived the horse of a 129/130 rating which would have made him the equal of Galileo, it also deprived him of his 4th Gp1 win in a row and an undefeated season at middle distances.:mad:

It don't think it was the weight that lost the race. Joey went around the bend far too wide at Leopy. Even when it happened, I remember a bit of a gasp from the crowd who saw there was something wrong. Grey Gatsby had covered less ground to get up on Australia. Over confidence lost the race

finbarrk

Shemale wrote: »

Did you see Today FM, being different were just horsing around and foaling people, I know straight from the 80s!

Their marketing team and John Duggan should get the hoof as I doubt I am alone saying there is neigh chance of me ever tuning in again.

Do they really think pretending they have news is going to attract people.

I'm with you on this one for sure.

Francie Barrett

No rides for Joey at Dundalk on Wednesday, instead Moore takes the ride carrying 9 stone 3 - http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/card.sd?race_id=622589&r_date=2015-04-01#raceTabs=sc_

tryfix

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

It don't think it was the weight that lost the race. Joey went around the bend far too wide at Leopy. Even when it happened, I remember a bit of a gasp from the crowd who saw there was something wrong. Grey Gatsby had covered less ground to get up on Australia. Over confidence lost the race

The point I am making is that the overweight he carried did actually stop Australia finishing ahead of The Grey Gatsby.

If the jockey hadn't put up 1lb overweight the ride itself would only have meant the horse wouldn't have been a comfortable winner. He could have got away with either carrying the overweight or going wide, but not both.

Lt J.R. Bell

tryfix wrote: »

The point I am making is that the overweight he carried did actually stop Australia finishing ahead of The Grey Gatsby.

If the jockey hadn't put up 1lb overweight the ride itself would only have meant the horse wouldn't have been a comfortable winner. He could have got away with either carrying the overweight or going wide, but not both.

He did not get away with going around the bend too wide and going for the sprint a little too early. No one brought up the weight issue as a reason for the lost (well I did funny enough). It was tactics , I don't believe the weight issue was a big factor in the loss if the horse was rode more carefully

It ignores the fact that the horse has been on the go since May (so had Gatsby to be fair, but had not ran to full capacity)

Lt J.R. Bell

Francie Barrett wrote: »

No rides for Joey at Dundalk on Wednesday, instead Moore takes the ride carrying 9 stone 3 - http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/card.sd?race_id=622589&r_date=2015-04-01#raceTabs=sc_

Holy Moly!

Things must be really quite at Sir Michael Stoute's yard.

Never thought I would see that day that Moore would be on an Irish Race Track not called Leopardstown (which is rare enough) or the Curragh

Baldoyle must really have no time of Hefferan or O'Donoghue

If Ruby Walsh and Barry Geraghty were able to plane hop between Ireland and Britain regularly, I don't buy Moore's notion that he wont be willing to come to Ireland a little more often , at least on big days or Sundays. I don't see Stoute having much arsenal (Hillstar and that over rated pre 2013 Derby favourite are no use). Maybe some decent Hannon horses, but Richard to get to have the best ones. History showed that it didn't hurt Piggott (well,professionally)

ancapallliath

Lt J.R. Bell wrote: »

Holy Moly!

Things must be really quite at Sir Michael Stoute's yard.

Never thought I would see that day that Moore would be on an Irish Race Track not called Leopardstown (which is rare enough) or the Curragh

Baldoyle must really have no time of Hefferan or O'Donoghue

to be fair the winner does take €29k prize money so not exactly a run of the mill race.
The Track Formerly Known As Great Leighs (TTFKAGL) does have a half decent Class2 so I suppose he could have picked up a few rides there

read an article the other day about how racing has changed and the jockeys championship has lost some appeal with so many big international races.
I suppose Ryan can afford to be selective and having Coolemore backing he is going for big prizes.

Lt J.R. Bell

ancapallliath wrote: »

to be fair the winner does take €29k prize money so not exactly a run of the mill race.
The Track Formerly Known As Great Leighs (TTFKAGL) does have a half decent Class2 so I suppose he could have picked up a few rides there

read an article the other day about how racing has changed and the jockeys championship has lost some appeal with so many big international races.
I suppose Ryan can afford to be selective and having Coolemore backing he is going for big prizes.

Hence why the British have changed the format for their championship. Feel sorry for the likes of Graham Lee and the jockey that often rides/ rode for Sir Mark Prescott who rid winners all year round

Oh yeah, sure if Moore was bothered, he would have given Hughes a serious run for the championship last year.he threw in the towel early.

But, who could blame him? He rode and won two huge races in Australia, America and even in Ireland in the space of one month or so

He is dead right, keep his options open. Still just a nice surprise for people going to the races at Dundalk. He has that wonderful knack of "how the hell did he do that" way of ridding, finding those precious gaps. Looks effortless when done right

He had ridden Kingsman at two, rode Sole Power, gets a few Fahy horses (who are unpredictable) He's got Haggas, and when Willie Mullins has a few running at Ascot Moore is likely to be asked.then he has Japan.

Shemale

pugw wrote: »

Why should he?

Eh, because he consistently can't do the weight

Shemale

ancapallliath wrote: »

While atttempting not to insult you, but the fact you thought he was great and is now hurtling towards arsehole territory negates any argument you are trying to disprove

I don't think many ever thought he was great but it's absurd to think he is an arsehole.

How is it absurd, he was doing very well for the first couple of seasons, he hasn't been able to make the weight for quite a while.

All the while he is blotting his copybook and the copybook of the horses he is getting beaten by short distances by virtue of his sheer inability to make weight and subborness not to do the decent thing.

NaiveMelodies

Shemale wrote: »

How is it absurd, he was doing very well for the first couple of seasons, he hasn't been able to make the weight for quite a while.

All the while he is blotting his copybook and the copybook of the horses he is getting beaten by short distances by virtue of his sheer inability to make weight and subborness not to do the decent thing.

How is he nearing arsehole territory though? That post was possibly one of the worst posts I have read in a long time.

Shemale

NaiveMelodies wrote: »

How is he nearing arsehole territory though? That post was possibly one of the worst posts I have read in a long time.

Continuing to do a job he can't do properly, costing the horses he rides wins and denting their reputation and costing punters who may not be aware he is once again overweight money, that for me is the action of an arsehole.

Really sorry you did not enjoy my post :rolleyes:

ancapallliath

Shemale wrote: »

Continuing to do a job he can't do properly, costing the horses he rides wins and denting their reputation and costing punters who may not be aware he is once again overweight money, that for me is the action of an arsehole.

Really sorry you did not enjoy my post :rolleyes:

Is he continuing to do a job he can't do properly because of being overweight?

Has anyone got stats on how many races he was overweight and of them, how many he lost on and by what distance?
I would imagine there would be minimal occasions where the weight possibly cist him the race - but I could be wrong.

Arsehole though is harsh and uncalled for and indeed absurd.

If you think there are not worse happenings in thw irish racing scene than knowingly riding overweight then you should think again.

the groutch

beaten a neck on Tapestry in the Irish Oaks doing a pound and a half overweight.

Shemale

ancapallliath wrote: »

Is he continuing to do a job he can't do properly because of being overweight?

Yes. What is the difference between Joey saying he can do a weight for a ride and the horse getting beaten by a margin that meant he would have won if he kept his word and you hiring a roofer who says he will seal the roof properly and when it rains you bedroom is flooded.

Both are being paid to do a job to the best of their ability but there is no way you would call the roofer an arsehole because its the exact same thing.

ancapallliath wrote: »

Arsehole though is harsh and uncalled for and indeed absurd.

Word of the day: absurd.

I didnt call him an arsehole

ancapallliath

the groutch wrote: »

beaten a neck on Tapestry in the Irish Oaks doing a pound and a half overweight.

Thanks the grouch

Had a look and wasn't overweight in the oaks. Beaten 1/4 length after saddle slipped

However, beaten 3/4 length in the moyglare carrying 1lb overweight.
By my own ratings, over 7f, I use 2.5lbs per length. 1.24lbs would equate to 1/2 length

If he got clear passage he would have been closer, but it is still not clear that being overweight cost him the race.

How much of a difference does it make in black type races compared to handicaps then?
Generally they carry the same weight while OR's are completely different.

convert

OK, I think this thread has run its course and has now gone waaaayyy off topic, so I'm going to close it. Feel free to continue the JOB discussion in another thread.

/Thread closed.