IVCA race canceled this Sunday

07Lapierre

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

But as a marshal I've never been told by a race organiser I could "stop traffic", either if the Guards were present at the race or not. That's always been the case, even before these difficulties began in Fingal.

IMO The real issue is Stop Signs, Right Hand turns, Pedestrian Zebra crossings/traffic lights and possibly roundabouts. Its very difficult to find suitable road circuits that do not have these.

Even if marshals are marshalling correctly, its impossible to run a road race within the rules of the road, and as long as the gardai are telling race organisers that they could be prosecuted, then we have a problem.

Chips Lovell

Again, this has always been the case. Race participants are regularly reminded and obliged under CI rules that road traffic law applies and they are not exempt from adhering to it. If a rider decides to cross a solid white line or blow a stop sign, then its on their heads, not the race organiser's.

Cond0r

lennymc wrote: »

I don't know if the section below is legally enforceable, or if it would cover the scenario above, but, every rider when taking out a licence agrees that they are responsible for their own actions.

Originally Posted by CI Terms and Conditions of issuing a licence
I understand, and agree, that I participate in events, whether on the public highway or otherwise, at my own risk, and that no liability whatever will attach to the promoter, promoting club, or any officials of any cycling event nor to Cycling Ireland, Provincial Board affiliated thereto, for any injury, loss or damage suffered by me in or by reason of any event however such may be caused.

As you hint in your comment above the quote, I think it could be pretty hard to argue that race organisers have no liability if a serious incident occurs regardless of a waiver that the rider signed.

Honestly, I think the way forward is that CI need to work with local authorities / department of transport/local government/whatever to facilitate a (relatively) easy and cheap(or at least cheaper than the current) process to get road closures for races in more lightweight fashion. That is, the road is closed to oncoming traffic, but traffic can freely flow between the bunches in the same direction as the race.

This way everyone wins;

• there's minimal impact on locals living on the circuit
• the marshals have legal rights to stop and control traffic
• the riders have a safer race all round

I'm well aware that this is not an easy thing to implement, but I think it could be done. No more ambiguity, and a sustainable solution for continued road racing.

07Lapierre

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Again, this has always been the case. Race participants are regularly reminded and obliged under CI rules that road traffic law applies and they are not exempt from adhering to it. If a rider decides to cross a solid white line or blow a stop sign, then its on their heads, not the race organiser's.

That is what I always thought.

But when your in a meeting with the Gardaí and they tell you that unless you have a Closed Road Order in place, then any race you run is illegal and therefore the organisers, marshals and riders are all liable for prosecution. Kinda changes things a bit.

Chips Lovell

I completely understand this concern. I genuinely don't want to sound glib, but just want make sure people are aware of what the legal standing of races has always been. I think any club who was told the the above by the Guards wouldn't be blamed for thinking long and hard about their options.

However, I'm kind of optimistic about the reassurances that Drogheda received from Cycling Ireland, about marshals receiving the back of them and their insurers.

I also think there may be a some distinction between what the Guards in Fingal and the Guards in Meath are saying. The line in Fingal seems to be several degrees more extreme than the message going out in Meath.

Bristolscale7

CI and the IVCA need to push the OPW harder on the Phoenix Park races. Not a damn reason in the world why a closed circuit starting at 7:00 a.m. on a Saturday should be disallowed by the OPW.

07Lapierre

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

CI and the IVCA need to push the OPW harder on the Phoenix Park races. Not a damn reason in the world why a closed circuit starting at 7:00 a.m. on a Saturday should be disallowed by the OPW.

"Health and Safety"...we might hurt ourselves and sue them!

Bristolscale7

07Lapierre wrote: »

"Health and Safety"...we might hurt ourselves and sue them!

This doesn't hold water. The race organizations can indemnify the OPW.

Beasty

07Lapierre wrote: »

"Health and Safety"...we might hurt ourselves and sue them!

However we can (and do) provide any relevant authority with an indemnity letter from CI's insurers covering them to the tune of €6.5m (or more) should anything go wrong

I do think this was previously seen as one of the "safety valves" on this whole issue and perhaps the Gardaí are not looking at the issue in this light. We effectively have public liability cover which should deal with any potential claims

07Lapierre

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

This doesn't hold water. The race organizations can indemnify the OPW.

I was joking !

07Lapierre

Beasty wrote: »

However we can (and do) provide any relevant authority with an indemnity letter from CI's insurers covering them to the tune of €6.5m (or more) should anything go wrong

I do think this was previously seen as one of the "safety valves" on this whole issue and perhaps the Gardaí are not looking at the issue in this light. We effectively have public liability cover which should deal with any potential claims

I have full Comp insurance on my car...I still can't run a red light though.

Bristolscale7

07Lapierre wrote: »

I was joking !

Emotions are high in this thread--irony and humor need to be flagged appropriately!

It does piss me off though that both CI and the IVCA seem to have let the OPW off the hook on the Phoenix Park races.

morana

Marshals were always covered by CI insurance!

Thats nothing new as long as the race is an approved CI race.

Beasty

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

It does piss me off though that both CI and the IVCA seem to have let the OPW off the hook on the Phoenix Park races.

Don't understand these comments

Firstly CI do not run any races. It's over to clubs if they wish to apply to the park authorities. They have though provided an excellent facility at Corkagh park. It may not be large enough for open races but plenty of clubs take advantage of it. In addition Mondello has started to put on a lot more events

In the case of the IVCA until late last week there was no hint of this issue escalating this way. I am sure they will review their options at tomorrow's EGM, but I'm not seeing them letting anyone off the hook

Beasty

morana wrote: »

Marshals were always covered by CI insurance!

Covered for any financial penalty - doesn't absolve them from any potential prosecution though

12 sprocket

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

CI and the IVCA need to push the OPW harder on the Phoenix Park races. Not a damn reason in the world why a closed circuit starting at 7:00 a.m. on a Saturday should be disallowed by the OPW.

I think you might find that there is not that much pushing of the OPW people in the park required at all.. As far as I am aware the Park people want to see the park being used for sport and recreational purposes including bike races.. However there are a number of things that they usually require such as posters on gates barriers etc that involve some work for the race organisers prior to the event...
So Bristolscale I imagine the door might be open if you just push it and maybe you might consider organising a race yourself there to kick it off?

12 sprocket

Beasty wrote: »

Covered for any financial penalty - doesn't absolve them from any potential prosecution though

Beasty, races have been run in this country for a long, long time with no major problems and part of the reason is that the Irish are a sporting nation and also that they are a little bit more flexible than some nations and nationalities in regard to rules and regulations.

Its a case of rules and regulations being there to guide people rather than stifle them and their activities.. As the late Ben Mc Kenna who was a sergeant in the Garda Traffic Corp, a leading commisaire, Ras Winner, and gentleman to boot once said to me..... THe rules are just for keeping us between the hedges, there has to be some flexibility in them. And its good to see that Cycling Ireland have confirmed that their marshals are well covered with insurance.

morana

Beasty wrote: »

Covered for any financial penalty - doesn't absolve them from any potential prosecution though

what other way would they be covered? I dont know of the insurers going to court to defend a potential "criminal" action and I would bet thats still the case.

BzrBren

😢

Beasty

morana wrote: »

what other way would they be covered? I dont know of the insurers going to court to defend a potential "criminal" action and I would bet thats still the case.

They would be covered for any claims under the public liability insurance for example, which may never go anywhere near a court. Equally though they could be prosecuted by the Gardai for obstructing traffic of a whole host of other "statutory" offences. They may be covered for any fine, and it's very unlikely to be a criminal prosecution, but they could still end up with some kind of civil prosecution "record" which could count against them (sometimes it can affect an ability to get certain jobs for example)

greenmat

Surely by legally allowing Marshals to stop traffic for the short time it takes for a group to pass might solve all the problems. Make us all do a Marshals course endorsed by CI and the Garda. Put in place min requirement like lead cars with flashing lights, Radios at marshal points, plenty of warning signs etc. Every day your stopped in your car by Road workers, builders, council workers etc, they have no power to stop traffic yet they do it.

Part of our problem is how local communities view us. Should a percentage of race fee's go to community groups within the area you race in. Might change their view of us if the local school is getting a new computer after each race etc etc.

couerdelion

Not sureif this has been mentioned previously but British Cycling seems to be experiencing similar problems

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/campaigning/article/Keep-Racing-on-the-Roads-Home

(not sure when the article is from or if anything has been implemented from it)

morana

Beasty wrote: »

They would be covered for any claims under the public liability insurance for example, which may never go anywhere near a court. Equally though they could be prosecuted by the Gardai for obstructing traffic of a whole host of other "statutory" offences. They may be covered for any fine, and it's very unlikely to be a criminal prosecution, but they could still end up with some kind of civil prosecution "record" which could count against them (sometimes it can affect an ability to get certain jobs for example)

Yeah thats what I meant the insurers would also pay the costs of any case I guess.

Beasty

couerdelion wrote: »

Not sureif this has been mentioned previously but British Cycling seems to be experiencing similar problems

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/campaigning/article/Keep-Racing-on-the-Roads-Home

(not sure when the article is from or if anything has been implemented from it)

The UK has though introduced laws allowing certain motorcycle marshals to stop/manage traffic - something like that would certainly relieve some of the tensions over here

Chips Lovell

Even if they were easier and cheaper to acquire, I'm unconvinced that road closure orders are desirable.

1. They're likely to result in more disruption, not less, for other traffic. As it stands, traffic meeting a race usually isn't delayed for very long.
2. In order to effectively enforce a "no-local traffic on circuit" or a one way rule, race organisers would need a massive increase in manpower.

Inquitus

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Even if they were easier and cheaper to acquire, I'm unconvinced that road closure orders are desirable.

1. They're likely to result in more disruption, not less, for other traffic. As it stands, traffic meeting a race usually isn't delayed for very long.
2. In order to effectively enforce a "no-local traffic on circuit" or a one way rule, race organisers would need a massive increase in manpower.

I would imagine how the closed road order is implemented is at the discretion of the organisers, it could be implemented exactly as we run races today, i.e. cars allowed in both directions on circuit and only stopped briefly as cyclists approach a turn. It would just give Marshall's the legal power to direct the traffic.

Which ofc begs the question what's the point in requiring them in the first place......

Beasty

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Even if they were easier and cheaper to acquire, I'm unconvinced that road closure orders are desirable.

1. They're likely to result in more disruption, not less, for other traffic. As it stands, traffic meeting a race usually isn't delayed for very long.
2. In order to effectively enforce a "no-local traffic on circuit" or a one way rule, race organisers would need a massive increase in manpower.

One benefit I can see, if the cost/hassle issues could be managed, is it potentially opens up new circuits, as it should be possible to use narrower roads. Equally though I think, particularly in the Greater Dublin area, you are unlikely to avoid some pretty major roads unless you introduce lots of corners (and a few more marshals to manage them).

Then you have the issue of just how much racing is going on, with the IVCA, Open races, club league etc often using circuits in the same vicinity. I think there would probably be uproar amongst locals if attempts were made to accommodate the current calendars on closed roads

Chips Lovell

Inquitus wrote: »

Which ofc begs the question what's the point in requiring them in the first place......

Exactly. It could be a huge amount of fuss for something that's purely cosmetic.

07Lapierre

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Even if they were easier and cheaper to acquire, I'm unconvinced that road closure orders are desirable.

1. They're likely to result in more disruption, not less, for other traffic. As it stands, traffic meeting a race usually isn't delayed for very long.
2. In order to effectively enforce a "no-local traffic on circuit" or a one way rule, race organisers would need a massive increase in manpower.

Agreed...Which is why I suggested this:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94857533&postcount=87

pprendeville

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Jesus <snip>!

Stick to the pseudonym plz.

pprendeville

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I completely understand this concern. I genuinely don't want to sound glib, but just want make sure people are aware of what the legal standing of races has always been. I think any club who was told the the above by the Guards wouldn't be blamed for thinking long and hard about their options.

However, I'm kind of optimistic about the reassurances that Drogheda received from Cycling Ireland, about marshals receiving the back of them and their insurers.

I also think there may be a some distinction between what the Guards in Fingal and the Guards in Meath are saying. The line in Fingal seems to be several degrees more extreme than the message going out in Meath.

Have a feeling that if the said insurance company was faced with the prospect of having to pay out big money in the event of an accident they wouldn't be long changing their tune.

ThisRegard

07Lapierre wrote: »

Yes it is an offence to stop traffic...only gardai (and Traffic Wardens) have the legal right to do so.

And someone in control of animals. Just have every marshal bring a horse or cow with them and they're sorted. Simplest solution.

Lusk_Doyle

pprendeville wrote: »

Stick to the pseudonym plz.

Oops, sorry PP!

couerdelion

Beasty wrote: »

The UK has though introduced laws allowing certain motorcycle marshals to stop/manage traffic - something like that would certainly relieve some of the tensions over here

Motor Cycle marshals and static marshals have the power to stop traffic in the UK (wales at least). As long as the marshals have been trained by the police and are employed by an accredited company (Cycling Wales) then the local police super will grant them the power to stop.

To me that seems like an ideal compromise - but it would take time to work legislation through.

07Lapierre

Inquitus wrote: »

I would imagine how the closed road order is implemented is at the discretion of the organisers, it could be implemented exactly as we run races today, i.e. cars allowed in both directions on circuit and only stopped briefly as cyclists approach a turn. It would just give Marshall's the legal power to direct the traffic.

Which ofc begs the question what's the point in requiring them in the first place......

A CRO is at the discretion of the County Council. This is the very point we discussed with Fingal. We want to be able to run Club races on Open roads without any traffic restrictions (basically we want to run them as we have been for the past 30 years or so.)

But Fingal had insisted on a CRO (as recommended/insisted on by the Gardaí) for all races, Open or Closed.

We think we have finally got an agreement to at least allow us to run two club races on a trail basis and we hope that once we run these races safely, that the gardai will be happy to allow us to continue to do so, with some possible conditions (e.s. Max number of riders..agreed circuits for racing or whatever)

RobFowl

Road closures desirable or not will simply not work at this time. They require a substantial Garda presence to enforce and that is simply not achievable with the manpower issues the Garda have at present.
If mandatory road closures are enforced many races will simply not happen or else be cancelled at the last moment if and when gardai are not available.
The only impact this will have is to destroy road racing as a sport in this country.

pprendeville

couerdelion wrote: »

Motor Cycle marshals and static marshals have the power to stop traffic in the UK (wales at least). As long as the marshals have been trained by the police and are employed by an accredited company (Cycling Wales) then the local police super will grant them the power to stop.

To me that seems like an ideal compromise - but it would take time to work legislation through.

Does it work like that in Northern Ireland also? I remember doing the newry 3 Day and I'm nearly sure the moto marshalls would go up the road (there were loads) and they'd stop at junctions coming onto main roads until the bunch had passed and come back around again.

07Lapierre

RobFowl wrote: »

Road closures desirable or not will simply not work at this time. They require a substantial Garda presence to enforce and that is simply not achievable with he manpower issues the Garda have at present.
If mandatory road closures are enforced many races will simply not happen or be cancelled at the last moment if and when gardai are not available.
The only impact this will have is to destroy road racing as a sport in this country.

My Information is that once we apply for and receive a CRO from Fingal..Gardaí are not required. Once we have that piece of paper, we can legally put a barrier across the road and stop All traffic. The Problem is. anyone who has marshalled at the Ras finish in Skerries knows the kind of grief you get from people when a road is closed off! without Gardai being present we'd be lynched!

Beasty

RobFowl wrote: »

Road closures desirable or not will simply not work at this time. They require a substantial Garda presence to enforce and that is simply not achievable with he manpower issues the Garda have at present.

AFAIK full road closures require no Gardaí involvement. It's the responsibility of the organisers to "police" the junctions. The Gardai do of course have to manage "rolling" closures for the likes of the Ras

Inquitus

RobFowl wrote: »

Road closures desirable or not will simply not work at this time. They require a substantial Garda presence to enforce and that is simply not achievable with the manpower issues the Garda have at present.
If mandatory road closures are enforced many races will simply not happen or else be cancelled at the last moment if and when gardai are not available.
The only impact this will have is to destroy road racing as a sport in this country.

I don't believe you need Garda assistance to implement a closed road order.

RobFowl

Beasty wrote: »

AFAIK full road closures require no Gardaí involvement. It's the responsibility of the organisers to "police" the junctions. The Gardai do of course have to manage "rolling" closures for the likes of the Ras

I have never seen a full road closure for a sporting or similar event where the Gardai have not been in attendance.
Would be interested to hear if any one else had been at even one??

By the letter of the law Gardai may not technically have to be there but in real terms its simply not going to happen.

07Lapierre

RobFowl wrote: »

I have never seen a full road closure for a sporting or similar event where the Gardai have not been in attendance.
Would be interested to hear if any one else had been at even one??

By the letter of the law Gardai may not technically have to be there but in real terms its simply not going to happen.

If you want to see a CRO in action go Here: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.425729,-6.212943,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s-GGMgH3MS60DPhcg13911g!2e0

This road is closed until April 10th and has been closed for the last few months. IMO its a classic example of what a CRO should be used for. That is Major Roadworks. No Gardaí needed as its physically impossible to cycle or drive along the road.

A CRO for a Bike race is a good idea if there are 100+ riders doing laps of a circuit. But for running a small race on quiet rural roads, its total O.T.T.

ThisRegard

RobFowl wrote: »

I have never seen a full road closure for a sporting or similar event where the Gardai have not been in attendance.
Would be interested to hear if any one else had been at even one??

By the letter of the law Gardai may not technically have to be there but in real terms its simply not going to happen.

I was marshalling an event which was on the same day and partially the same route as the Ras one time. As the Ras approached the junction I was at a garda biker came along, blocked the junction, and off he went again once the last guy was through. Incidentally I wasn't holding or stopping traffic at the junction, just informing traffic that there was an event on so be wary.

There was non garda biker marshals but they didn't do anything really at the junction from what I can remember

RobFowl

07Lapierre wrote: »

If you want to see a CRO in action go Here: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.425729,-6.212943,3a,75y,180h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s-GGMgH3MS60DPhcg13911g!2e0

Thats not for a sporting or similar reason though. It's the 1day closures for a few hours I'm referring to.

07Lapierre

RobFowl wrote: »

Thats not for a sporting or similar reason though. It's the 1day closures for a few hours I'm referring to.

I Know..I'm agreeing with you. I don't think a CRO (Closed Road Order) is the way to go for club races anyway.

But for Large Open races with 100+ riders, I think its hard to argue against a CRO. A Rolling Road closure with garda assistance is a possible alternative to a full road closure, but as you say..the gardai are stretched and under resourced, so getting garda assistance is going to be difficult.

Beasty

RobFowl wrote: »

I have never seen a full road closure for a sporting or similar event where the Gardai have not been in attendance.
Would be interested to hear if any one else had been at even one??

Fingal Tri outside my house last year. I ended up going to the near corner to "assist" the poor marshal (as the person who was supposed to be helping here didn't turn up)

Of course, that was only one junction and I have no idea as to how the others were dealt with, although I did see something similar with another of their triathlons/duathlons last year

Mefistofelino

07Lapierre wrote: »

I Know..I'm agreeing with you. I don't think a CRO (Closed Road Order) is the way to go for club races anyway.

But for Large Open races with 100+ riders, I think its hard to argue against a CRO. A Rolling Road closure with garda assistance is a possible alternative to a full road closure, but as you say..the gardai are stretched and under resourced, so getting garda assistance is going to be difficult.

A Temporary Road Closure doesn't come cheap, with council fees of €500+. Most road race circuits wouldn't fall into the "small" category (unless running a crit) so they'll be at the more expensive end of the scale. Add into this the requirement to develop an acceptable emergency access plan, advertising and, possibly, door-to-door notification leaflet drops and the organising club is well into a 4-figure bill before a single entry fee is taken. A TRC will put at least an extra tenner on an entry fee and quite possibly multiples of that.

RobFowl

Beasty wrote: »

Fingal Tri outside my house last year. I ended up going to the near corner to "assist" the poor marshal (as the person who was supposed to be helping here didn't turn up)

Of course, that was only one junction and I have no idea as to how the others were dealt with, although I did see something similar with another of their triathlons/duathlons last year

They were definitely in attendance for that one, they quoted descriptions of it back at other organisers !!

ROK ON

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Even if they were easier and cheaper to acquire, I'm unconvinced that road closure orders are desirable.

1. They're likely to result in more disruption, not less, for other traffic. As it stands, traffic meeting a race usually isn't delayed for very long.
2. In order to effectively enforce a "no-local traffic on circuit" or a one way rule, race organisers would need a massive increase in manpower.

+1
Even if it were free CI and clubs should reject closed road racing out of hand for 90% of events. One sure fire way to p1ss off people is to close a road. In Kenmare the Rally of the lakes gets road closures for two to three days every year. Last year every route out of Kenmare was closed for the best part of an entire Saturday.
The precedent set by having to close roads for any event is a dangerous one IMHO. If rules are followed within reason and there is sufficient marshalling then open road events can cause relatively little inconvenience for road users.

cornet

I have marshalled when roads were closed (Nat Champs) and at plenty of races when roads weren't closed.

My observations:
1. Even with closed roads a marshal has no authority to stop anyone - some motorists ignored them. I was with a uniformed Guard at a junction, I was amazed at the abuse he got from a couple of motorists.

2. Closed roads inconvenience neighbours (I only live up the road) and you have to eventually let people through in the direction/flow of the race.

3. In non-closed races motorists accept that it is minor wait and most enjoy watching the race pass by. The key is to be polite and thank them for their patience.

4. I think the Guards have better things to do then go around arresting cycling marshals.

5. Closed roads benefit cyclists more than motorists.