Does Anyone Prefer Toe-Clips to SPD?

Thargor

Im collecting my new Defy on Saturday and it comes with toe-clips, I really reallly dislike SPD but I am trying to become a better cyclist so I do want some kind of assistance. Im wondering why new bikes come fitted with toe clips when nobody seems to use them? Do they help with climbing/speed as much as other cyclists seem to get out of SPD? Are they easy to get in and out of?

My main reasons for not liking SPD is the constant shocks you get from thinking drivers are pulling out in front of you when they stop their car half way over the white line instead of before the white line. I always hit the ground when that happens and of the 3 shoes and 3 pedals Ive tried I can never get my feet out when something unexpected happens, it always takes 3 or 4 attempts.

MugMugs

I used Toe Clips for the first 3 weeks of serious riding and couldn't wait to get rid of them. In fact, I removed them from the pedals whilst waiting on my keo's to arrive.

I've also never had an issue removing my foot from the pedals during an emergency.

In fact, it's somewhat easier by all accounts.

07Lapierre

Thargor wrote: »

My main reasons for not liking SPD is the constant shocks you get from thinking drivers are pulling out in front of you when they stop their car half way over the white line instead of before the white line. I always hit the ground when that happens and of the 3 shoes and 3 pedals Ive tried I can never get my feet out when something unexpected happens, it always takes 3 or 4 attempts.

If that's the case, you'd be better off with platform pedals and no Clips. If you use toe clips correctly, then every time you want to put your foot down, you'd have to reach down and loosen the toe strap manually. With SPD's you just twist your foot...much easier.

smacl

On your SPDs you can set a very low tension, if you use this with sh56 cleats (release turning foot in any direction) rather than the default sh51, getting out quickly is very easy. Much easier than toe straps IMHO.

petethedrummer

You can be led to believe toe straps are an intermediate step between flats and clipless. I'd argue that they're not. They are a total pain in the a55. And any tiny gain in efficiency over flats is lost in the hassle of getting your foot in, getting your foot out, tightening them, loosening them, worrying over whether your foot will come out in time, you crash your feet are locked in.

Just use flats. You won't miss the 0.001 watt.

lissard

Second what smacl is saying about sh56 cleats - they make a simply massive difference when clipping in and out. They are rounded at the back when compared to the standard SPD cleats that come with the pedals. I guess this gives them a lot of float but I've never found this a problem. To my mind they are way safer than toe clips.

Never had a problem getting out of SPDs quickly (apart from the first inevitable time).

On the other hand, had a minor crash when my feet slipped off on normal pedals when I went from putting the power down to emergency stop quickly.

Thargor

petethedrummer wrote: »

Just use flats. You won't miss the 0.001 watt.

Thanks, is the difference between SPD/Clips and Flats really that insignificant?

Brian?

I used tor clips for years in the 80s and 90s. Clip less pedals are the greatest invention in cycling since the derailleur was invented.

outfox

Another option is to get one sided SPD pedals, which have a platform on the other side. You can switch to the platform in situations where you expect a lot of traffic, and change over to the clips when the road clears. I'm not sure how much grip you'd get with SPD shoes on the platform side - I've only used the platform side with runners. But it might be worth looking at.

Alek

Thanks, is the difference between SPD/Clips and Flats really that insignificant?

I've learned to pull the opposite pedal at the same time as pushing the other - this gives me an advantage in short sprints/climbs with high cadence as I'm using some extra muscles that are not tired at this stage. Works well for me in fast segments of a cyclocross race, when everybody is already more or less evenly fooked

I wouldn't be able to do it with flats.

Thargor

Does anyone avoid SPD altogether and just use normal flats on their roadbike?

Brian?

Thargor wrote: »

Does anyone avoid SPD altogether and just use normal flats on their roadbike?

Are you referring to all clipless pedals as "SPD"?

Oryx

Thargor wrote: »

Does anyone avoid SPD altogether and just use normal flats on their roadbike?

I used flats for 18 months when I started. The minute I changed to cleats, I knew I would never, ever go back. I hate riding flat pedals now, it feels a lot less safe.

Darkglasses

Thargor wrote: »

Does anyone avoid SPD altogether and just use normal flats on their roadbike?

Such people would be pretty rare - once people get used to clipless pedals, they rarely go back to flats.

cdaly_

Oryx wrote: »

I used flats for 18 months when I started. The minute I changed to cleats, I knew I would never, ever go back. I hate riding flat pedals now, it feels a lot less safe.

This.

When clipped in, I'm more in control of the bike. I can descend at speed and know that my foot won't bounce off the pedal on a bump.

Thargor

Brian? wrote: »

Are you referring to all clipless pedals as "SPD"?

Yeah sorry I thought they were all called SPD pedals, is there another name I can research?

Oryx wrote: »

I used flats for 18 months when I started. The minute I changed to cleats, I knew I would never, ever go back. I hate riding flat pedals now, it feels a lot less safe.

Im not worried about safety and I dont even understand that, Ive never been on the ground with traffic all around me in flats and its happened 4-5 times with SPDs. Im not interested in races or group rides either, Im mainly interested in the difference it makes to long rides up to the Sally Gap and getting up hills etc. I see a few articles like this that say the claim that it lets you pull up as well as push down is BS. Im just trying to find out how much of a difference it makes, if its purely about safety then Im definitely not bothered.

Darkglasses

Thargor wrote: »

Yeah sorry I thought they were all called SPD pedals, is there another name I can research?

Here's a crash-course on nomenclature -

Clipless - refers to all pedals where you clip into a pedal with a cleat on your shoe. SPD, SPD-SL, Look Keo and Speedplay are all different types of clipless pedals.

Flats/platforms - normal pedals without any kind of foot retention systems

Clips - the type of pedal you are using, with a cage and strap.

Thargor

Darkglasses wrote: »

Here's a crash-course on nomenclature -

Clipless - refers to all pedals where you clip into a pedal with a cleat on your shoe. SPD, SPD-SL, Look Keo and Speedplay are all different types of clipless pedals.

Flats/platforms - normal pedals without any kind of foot retention systems

Clips - the type of pedal you are using, with a cage and strap.

Okay thanks, I wont be using clips though, I didn't realise you had to constantly loosen and tighten them as you went.

Oryx

Has anyone ever shown you how to clip out?

Thargor

I can do it 99% of the time its just too dangerous the other 1% especially anywhere theres traffic and I have tried multiple shoe and pedal combinations.

Alek

I see a few articles like this that say the claim that it lets you pull up as well as push down is BS.

I also find it beneficial to switch to pull going up a steep hill, when muscles get tired. Works for me!

nc19

Thargor wrote:

My main reasons for not liking SPD is the constant shocks you get from thinking drivers are pulling out in front of you when they stop their car half way over the white line instead of before the white line. I always hit the ground when that happens and of the 3 shoes and 3 pedals Ive tried I can never get my feet out when something unexpected happens, it always takes 3 or 4 attempts.

they need to be adjusted in terms of tightness so as to facilitate quick removal

07Lapierre

Thargor wrote: »

Yeah sorry I thought they were all called SPD pedals, is there another name I can research?

Im not worried about safety and I dont even understand that, Ive never been on the ground with traffic all around me in flats and its happened 4-5 times with SPDs. Im not interested in races or group rides either, Im mainly interested in the difference it makes to long rides up to the Sally Gap and getting up hills etc. I see a few articles like this that say the claim that it lets you pull up as well as push down is BS. Im just trying to find out how much of a difference it makes, if its purely about safety then Im definitely not bothered.

The Pedals work in conjunction with the Shoes...cycling shoes have a very stiff sole which is a lot more efficient than say a pair of trainers/runners.

Try them...you won't regret it..

Fian

Practice - don't just unclip when you want to , deliberately go out and practice clipping in and out a hundred times. soon it will happen without conscious thought.

The purpose of the straps and the clip are the same - to connect your foot to eh pedal. The difference is that one is much much easier than the other to disconnect. To secure your foot with straps you put your foot on the pedal and then tighten the strap to hold it in place. To remove you reach down and loosen the strap. This is absolutely not suitable for traffic.

Once you have practiced disconnecting from clipless you will do it without thinking about it. Much safer.

Having said all that I use flats on my commuter bike - where I am going to be stopped and junctions and traffic lights frequently on my commute it is just easier not to worry about clipping in and out. Plus it means i can use trainers and anyway it is a short spin so really clipless are not required.

Oryx

Thargor wrote: »

I can do it 99% of the time its just too dangerous the other 1% especially anywhere theres traffic and I have tried multiple shoe and pedal combinations.

How long have you tried for? It takes a few rides before you can do it without thinking about it. And always push the heel down and out, not up.

Thargor

Alek wrote: »

Having said all that I use flats on my commuter bike - where I am going to be stopped and junctions and traffic lights frequently on my commute it is just easier not to worry about clipping in and out. Plus it means i can use trainers and anyway it is a short spin so really clipless are not required.

Thats what Im trying to figure out though, are they really necessary if people can do away with them like that? What do they actually do?

Alek

Originally Posted by Alek View Post
Having said all that I use flats on my commuter bike

I didn't say that!

Thargor

Oh sorry, that was weird, I only pressed the quote button, it was Fian:

Fian wrote: »

Having said all that I use flats on my commuter bike - where I am going to be stopped and junctions and traffic lights frequently on my commute it is just easier not to worry about clipping in and out. Plus it means i can use trainers and anyway it is a short spin so really clipless are not required.

Buchaill_Mor

I use SPD on my commuter bike. I do about 40k a day. Once you get used to the clipping/unclipping it is second nature, but there are a lot of times you know you are going to need to unclip so I tend to do it before I get to that point, like coasting to lights, or you think someone is going to be an idiot. I am not saying that things just don't happen, but I find they are once in a blue moon as opposed to every trip out.

petethedrummer

Thargor wrote: »

Thanks, is the difference between SPD/Clips and Flats really that insignificant?

Well I don't know exactly but I have read articles that say the pulling up effect on the pedals is pretty insignificant except maybe if you're sprinting. But that's besides the point. I'm not arguing against clipless. If you're racing you'll be using proper clipless. If you're commuting, touring or sportive riding, either go clipless or use flats. Fixed gear riding aside, toe-straps have no advantages in any scenario.

Toe clips in this day and age are a fudge for people who are (undertandably) scared of proper clipless pedals and instead of being gentle introduction they mispresent the sheer nirvana of clipless pedalling.

Thargor

Buchaill_Mor wrote: »

I use SPD on my commuter bike. I do about 40k a day. Once you get used to the clipping/unclipping it is second nature, but there are a lot of times you know you are going to need to unclip so I tend to do it before I get to that point, like coasting to lights, or you think someone is going to be an idiot. I am not saying that things just don't happen, but I find they are once in a blue moon as opposed to every trip out.

Im not worried about clipping/unclipping, Id put up with the discomfort and fear if there was any noticeable increase in power and speed but I'm struggling to see any, for example there have been 5 replies mentioning the safety of clipless vs flat in this thread and only one person saying he can pull up on a steep hill.

how much of a difference does it make in peoples opinion on say a spin from Dublin up to the Sally Gap and back?

07Lapierre

Thargor wrote: »

how much of a difference does it make in peoples opinion on say a spin from Dublin up to the Sally Gap and back?

A Lot!...try it!

Thargor

petethedrummer wrote: »

Well I don't know exactly but I have read articles that say the pulling up effect on the pedals is pretty insignificant except maybe if you're sprinting. But that's besides the point. I'm not arguing against clipless. If you're racing you'll be using proper clipless. If you're commuting, touring or sportive riding, either go clipless or use flats. Fixed gear riding aside, toe-straps have no advantages in any scenario.

Toe clips in this day and age are a fudge for people who are (undertandably) scared of proper clipless pedals and instead of being gentle introduction they mispresent the sheer nirvana of clipless pedalling.

Okay thanks, definitely not using toe straps now, Ill see if I can get the Giant store to take them back and give me some flats until I can see if I can find a clipless setup that works for me.

petethedrummer

Thargor wrote: »

how much of a difference does it make in peoples opinion on say a spin from Dublin up to the Sally Gap and back?

Objectively - probably very little in terms of performance gains.
Subjectively - it's much much nicer going for a long spin in clipless pedals.

As for safety clipless are a bit safer due to less chance of your foot slipping off. Although negotiating the ramp in Glendalough Fayre can be difficult.

petethedrummer

Thargor wrote: »

Okay thanks, definitely not using toe straps now, Ill see if I can get the Giant store to take them back and give me some flats until I can see if I can find a clipless setup that works for me.

They do take a little bit of time to get used to but once you practise a bit it becomes second nature. The feeling of trepidation goes away. Unlike with toe straps.

Thargor

But why is it much nicer though if theres little performance gain? Is being able to adjust your feet when they get sore and walk around when you're off the bike not nicer?

petethedrummer

Thargor wrote: »

But why is it much nicer though if theres little performance gain? Is being able to adjust your feet when they get sore and walk around when you're off the bike not nicer?

In a word. No.:)

I commute on flat pedals and it's just not as nice.

Buchaill_Mor

I think it is a personal thing. I find it makes a difference in lots of little ways. A smoother more consistant application of power when pulling away from lights. When going up even short inclines you just drop that person on flats hugging your rear wheel for no more effort as you are able to use more of the pedal stroke. Acceleration when pedaling to a higher speed is smoother and more consistent. And I feel safer in them, particularly bin wet conditions as they help me control the bike better and my feet don't slip off the pedals. That is just my opinion though.

I think going up to Sally Gap you will find that clipless will assist you all the way around the pedal stroke. Pulling up takes practice but going up a steep, long incline, once mastered I find my legs are a lot fresher, though that could be a fitness thing. Plus instead of my thigh muscle on the front taking all the punishment of the constant down stroke, the work is shared by my gluteus muscle and bicep muscle on the back of the other leg with the opposite upstroke.

outfox

Thargor wrote: »

Okay thanks, definitely not using toe straps now, Ill see if I can get the Giant store to take them back and give me some flats until I can see if I can find a clipless setup that works for me.

You should be able to remove the toe cages and straps from the pedals, and you'll be left with flats.

Thargor

Does anyone know if this article is true btw?

http://www.rivbike.com/Articles.asp?ID=255

When elite pedalers and lousy rookie pedalers have been hooked up to machines that measure muscle activity during pedaling, the machines tell us this:

during normal pedaling at normal cadences, nobody pulls UP on the backstroke

the elite/efficient pedalers push down less on the upward moving pedal than the rookies do.

Think about that until it sinks in and you're bored. The good pedalers----the guys in the logo costumes and the white sunglasses and shaved legs----minimize the downward force on the upward-moving pedal more. They don't pull up on it or even unweight it. They just minimize the downward pressure on it, so one leg isn't fighting the other as much.

That is a far cry from the 360-degrees of power the clickers and media and experts promise you.

The thing is, if all you can hope to do is minimize the downward force on the upward-moving pedal, how does it help to be clicked or strapped in?

It doesn't and can't.

Oryx

All I'm saying is dont mock it till youve tried it.

Buchaill_Mor

I suspect you may have already made up your mind.

Alek

I might be a lousy rookie pedaller, but I can definitely tell when my foot is lifted from the sole of the shoe. And I can tell when it speeds me up.

mcgratheoin

In terms of power output with clipless pedals, the upstroke isn't necessarily what I find the most useful addition, it's being able to pull through at the bottom of the downstroke - that "scraping something off the sole of your shoe" motion that helps to bring your other leg over the top and into the next downstroke (or the second half of the revolution). Wattbike has a good summary of how the power profile changes from beginner to elite athlete here and basically it can't be done without being clipped in.

**edit** as an aside, I've tried the single leg exercises on the turbo and my legs are in bits after a very short time, suggesting to me that I don't pull at all!


With regard to why I personally feel safer in clipless pedals, it's broadly the effect from zero risk of my feet slipping off the pedals. I wouldn't feel comfortable applying anything close to maximum effort on flats.


For commuting, I generally clip out just before lights etc.. in case I need to stop, but the advice given here is the best - practice clipping in and out as much as possible - it'll become second nature soon enough.

Fian

Thargor wrote: »

But why is it much nicer though if theres little performance gain? Is being able to adjust your feet when they get sore and walk around when you're off the bike not nicer?

I use both as i said - road bike has clipless and commuter has flats.

There is a significant difference when going for a weekend spin. I think the main thing is that you just don't need to pay any attention to keeping your foot on the pedal. I do take some of the load on the upstroke when I am climbing up stocking lane say, but that is not the important part. The big advantage is that you just don't have to keep track of where your foot is and make sure it doesn't slip off the pedal. You don't have to think about that. It is kind of surprising how much of a difference that makes over a four hour spin. On flats you are unconsciously adjusting your feet constantly as you pedal to keep them in the right place I think.

for someone who is racing or pushing hard I guess clipless would probably have a bigger performance rather than tiredness impact, I am not going to be breaking any speed records or trying to even, so for me it is a comfort benefit rather than a speed benefit that I get out of them.

Anyway I notice a big difference using clipless on the weekend. As has been pointed out nobody ever tends to go back, which tells the story i guess.

On my commuter I am not going to be tired after my (7k) flat commute into my office. And I will be stopping frequently at lights and in traffic. Also it is easier not to have cycling shoes on when i arrive in work. So I haven't bothered to change to clipless, though nor am I thinking "oh no i couldn't go in in clipless it would be uncomfortable." After a bit of practice you unclip without thinking about it, you just need to develop the muscle memory. Most people do have a slow motion fall or two before that lesson gets properly burned into the brain.

Fian

Thargor wrote: »

Does anyone know if this article is true btw?

http://www.rivbike.com/Articles.asp?ID=255

No idea of course, but the crucial thing there is :

"during normal pedaling at normal cadences, nobody pulls UP on the backstroke"

This may be true, but is hardly surprising. When people are sprinting or struggling to get up a steep hill, that is when the pulling up is likely to be used, to take some of the effort onto different muscles. you are going to use the upstroke when you are working hard, not when you are pedaling along at a steady pace.

Edit:

And by the way - if buying clipless remember you need to match the pedal to a shoe/cleat. If you are starting off you could consider SPD pedals, which are for mountain biking. The shoes tend to be much easier to walk in, they apparently have a slight performance deficit (heavier, less stiff soles, narrower platform of connection to the pedal). The biggest objection to them tends to be "thats not how the pros do it" as far as i can see. But then don't take my advice i suppose, i haven't even shaved my legs.

Brian?

Thargor wrote: »

Okay thanks, definitely not using toe straps now, Ill see if I can get the Giant store to take them back and give me some flats until I can see if I can find a clipless setup that works for me.

My advice. Get Speedplay zero pedals. Easy in and easy out of. Practice makes perfect. Clip out well ahead of time, with a 2 sided pedal like Speedplays it easy to clip back into so it won't cost anything to clip out early.

Daroxtar

There's half clips you can pick up in halfords fir around 10 or 15 euro, they hold your foot in place without a strap. Quite handy for commuting or just getting used to having your foot more secure on the pedal. I used them for a while. They're no substitute for spd/ spdsl though.

Luxman

Thargor wrote: »

Does anyone avoid SPD altogether and just use normal flats on their roadbike?

I resisted SPd for about 4 months when I started. Did a few sportive a on flat pedals. I only noticed the vast difference when I got SPd and after a few mins getting used to the clip in and out i would never go back. Another reason is that your feet won't slip off the pedals in wet conditions.

HivemindXX

Thargor wrote: »

But why is it much nicer though if theres little performance gain? Is being able to adjust your feet when they get sore and walk around when you're off the bike not nicer?

Cycling shoes are also nice, they have a rigid sole which effectively turns the entire length of your foot in to the pedal platform. This is pretty comfortable. You shouldn't really need to adjust the position of your foot, in fact I'd go so far as to say that being able to move your foot to the wrong position is a disadvantage. Actual SPD pedals (meaning not one of the other types of clipless pedals) have a recessed cleat and they are fine to walk around on off the bike.

Note that clipless pedals are usually smaller and lighter than flats as well.

However from what you say I think you'll be fine with regular platform pedals. I have clipless on my road bike and flats on my commuter and I don't feel less safe or less efficient with the flats. Toe clips are fine too, you don't actually need to tighten the straps if you don't want to. You can ride fine with the straps very loose although you lose most of the benefit of having them to be fair. They are a pain in the arse to get your foot in to though, being stuck behind someone who takes 5 goes to get their foot in after the light goes green is a regular commuting event for me. In the old days the toe clips were a separate piece that screwed in to the pedal and you could just take them off, I have no idea if that's still true. I doubt Giant will have any problem changing the pedals. I'm a little surprised they even come with the bike, peoples preferences vary so much that bikes often come with no pedals at all and each person buys whatever type suits them best.