"Soccer feeling like unloved child in tale of two sports"

Ferris_Bueller

Article written by Ken Early in the Irish times today.

I once had a conversation with an Irish soccer international a couple of days after the Irish rugby team had suffered a famous defeat.
He produced his phone and showed me a picture of an Ireland rugby player who was out on the town and displaying certain subtle signs of having consumed a gigantic quantity of booze.
“If that’s me in the photo they say I’m a f**king alcoholic. But because it’s him, it’s oh, look at him enjoying himself.”

The player was not impressed with what he saw as the Irish media’s double standards towards the rugby and football teams. You could see his point.

Any first-time visitor to Ireland over the last few days would assume that Ireland had become the only country in the world besides New Zealand where rugby was the number one sport. That was certainly the impression Giovanni Trapattoni took home to Italy. Last year he told Gazzetta dello Sport that, based on his experience of attending Ireland rugby matches during his time in charge of the football team, the Irish were more passionate about rugby than football.

What are peoples opinions on this? Personally I think this article sounds quite bitter and is biased but I can agree with some of the points he makes and have certainly been feeling rugby is becoming the most popular spectator sport in Ireland.

I've never been a fan of rugby, so my own view on this is probably skewed as well. But does anyone who follows both sports have anything to say about this article/topic? Is rugby viewed more favorably by the media? I've noticed it big time on the radio, there is always massive talk surrounding rugby matches when compared to soccer matches, but if that's what the public are interested in then they are only doing their job I suppose. I feel like Irish soccer is approaching it's lowest ever point since I've been around anyway, national team hasn't been doing well, league of Ireland teams have been going through a bit of a rough patch (although might be coming out of it now) and we have no players playing for top clubs in England or Europe anymore. Is the publics interest in soccer dying? Why has rugby become so popular all of a sudden?

As a soccer fan I hope it is only temporary but the IRFU have been doing fantastic work over the past few years, the Irish rugby team has been successful and Irish clubs are doing well too, literally the exact opposite to soccer.

AdamD

Very bitter altogether.


Football isn't helped by its schedule. The six nations is almost 2 months of international competition, that's enough time for people to get invested in it. International qualifiers are a couple of games, a few months break then another couple of games. The Robbie Keane stuff is just nonsense. People are well aware of Keane's achievements but aren't going to call him 'world class' because we associate world class relative to the other people playing the sport. Of course that's easier in Rugby with a much smaller playing population but there's no logic to suddenly describing Keane as world class..

And as individuals the Rugby team are more popular simply because they live here/play here and are in our media more through advertising and people even simply seeing them in public.

Ranchu

Irish footballers are out on the tear all the time. They just wouldn't make the papers because where our rugby players are stars our football players are essentially a gang of nobodies for the most part.

CSF

I don't get why its bitter.

CSF

Ranchu wrote: »

Irish footballers are out on the tear all the time. They just wouldn't make the papers because where our rugby players are stars our football players are essentially a gang of nobodies for the most part.

Do you actually believe this? On a worldwide level our football players are much more household names than our rugby players and probably earn more on average.

WoollyRedHat

He's not wrong. Our rugby players are idolized compared to our football players.

Bounty Hunter

The sad fact is Ireland are far more likely to win a Rugby match against a rival or good team like England or France (they beat both this year for example) than the Irish football are to do the same and as much as it shouldn't be the case "You only sing when your winning" etc is the case for many many supporters of all sports.

The Irish Rugby team being a pretty damn good team also can play some pretty entertaining stuff and that will get a crowd into it more too. Meanwhile The footballers will play to their strengths which might not exactly be entertaining.

Will I Amnt

Ranchu wrote: »

Irish footballers are out on the tear all the time. They just wouldn't make the papers because where our rugby players are stars our football players are essentially a gang of nobodies for the most part.

Rugby players are all nobodies to me and anybody else that's not in to rugby. I could name maybe 2 at a push.

kfallon

Rugby is shíte tbh! Wouldn't watch it if it was on out my back garden.

CSF

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

He's not wrong. Our rugby players are idolized compared to our football players.

True. Much smaller pond though. If the height of our achievements in football was to win a tournament with Northern Ireland. Wales, Scotland, England and France we would probably come a little closer to meeting public expectations.

AdamD

kfallon wrote: »

Rugby is shíte tbh! Wouldn't watch it if it was on out my back garden.

Gotta love these superb, well reasoned posts.

Tox56

Hilariously bitter article. So because we have players who are best in the world at rugby we should be lauding Robbie Keane as one of the best footballers in the world? Beyond stupid

kfallon

AdamD wrote: »

Gotta love these superb, well reasoned posts.

It's my opinion, that's allowed!
If people think rugby is great, fair enough but I can't stand it!

CSF

Tox56 wrote: »

Hilariously bitter article. So because we have players who are best in the world at rugby we should be lauding Robbie Keane as one of the best footballers in the world? Beyond stupid

It's a lot harder to be one of the best footballers in the world. The pool is so much bigger.

AdamD

CSF wrote: »

It's a lot harder to be one of the best footballers in the world. The pool is so much bigger.

Nobody's denying that, but why should we suddenly pretend Keane is the best in the world at soccer?

Tox56

CSF wrote: »

It's a lot harder to be one of the best footballers in the world. The pool is so much bigger.

Obviously, but Robbie Keane is clearly not one of them, where several of our rugby players are in their sport

Pawwed Rig

All you have to do is look at the parade of unknown nations that come through Lansdowne Road for meaninless friendlies. Like Ireland Poland is tomorrow and will be a good competitive match but when was the last competitive game? When is the next one?
2 years run in just to see if you qualify for a tournament is ridiculous if you ask me and I am a long time season ticket holder. Never mind that after watching all of these matches for 2 years you are dumped out because a referee didn't see a handball.
I am not a rugby fan at all but I can see why people would be drawn to it over soccer.

Ferris_Bueller

CSF wrote: »

I don't get why its bitter.

The tone of it is bitter I think. The whole point he made about Robbie Keane is strange, Ireland do genuinely have some world class rugby players whereas we 100% don't have any world class soccer players, he is completely right in saying that it's easier to become a world class rugby player though, but when he says "When was the last time you read a piece arguing he was one of the best in the world?" it's because Robbie Keane was never even close to being one of the best in the world, not anything got to do with rugby.

Or when he compares Declan Kidney/Eddie O'Sullivan to Steve Staunton, no comparison there really. I know very little about rugby but I don't think them two coaches were anywhere near as bad as Stan, he was an embarrassment, hence why he got the extra criticism. I disagree with Ranchu that our footballers are a bunch of nobodies, arguably they are bigger stars I would say. I agree with pretty much everything AdamD said in his post.

Bounty Hunter

We get that this is the Soccer board and no surprise some of you have no interest in Rugby, rugby players, think it's shoite and feel the need to say how much igger and in your opinion better a sport Soccer is but... thats not the point of the article. I honestly would agree that at least during Traps (as he was mentioned) and Martin O'Neils tenure so far Rugby has much more passionate support in Ireland. I would also think that Soccer players get a harder time.

Compare Brian O' Driscoll and Robbie Keane for example

You might not like the other sport or even the article but I think there are some valid points being made

Will I Amnt

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

We get that this is the Soccer board and no surprise some of you have no interest in Rugby, rugby players, think it's shoite and feel the need to say how much igger and in your opinion better a sport Soccer is but... thats not the point of the article. I honestly would agree that at least during Traps (as he was mentioned) and Martin O'Neils tenure so far Rugby has much more passionate support in Ireland. I would also think that Soccer players get a harder time.

Compare Brian O' Driscoll and Robbie Keane for example

You might not like the other sport or even the article but I think there are some valid points being made

A fairer example would be comparing O'Driscoll with Roy Keane.

Paully D

CSF wrote: »

It's a lot harder to be one of the best footballers in the world. The pool is so much bigger.

Yep. There's only 8 decent international teams in rugby.

AdamD

Has Robbie Keane been treated badly by the Irish press? Not from what I've seen. Roy Keane is incomparable for obvious reasons. His appointment was probably the most exciting thing to happen to Irish football for years funnily enough. The real problem has to be international qualifiers though, 2 year campaigns of ****e which inevitably boil down to 2/3 important games (over the space of 2 years!), there's literally nothing to get behind for months of the year. Rugby also has the benefit of reasonable amounts of people supporting the provinces and with all but 1 of our players coming from those provinces people are going to feel more attached to players they're supporting all year round then players they see playing for 2 games in 5 days every 4 months.


And look the soccer fans are getting stuck in the mud over the size of the sports rather than the actual reasons why people are less supportive of the national team.

CSF

Tox56 wrote: »

Obviously, but Robbie Keane is clearly not one of them, where several of our rugby players are in their sport

But one is clearly a much bigger achievement than the other. We also likely have most of the best GAA players in the world.

Bounty Hunter

Will I Amnt wrote: »

A fairer example would be comparing O'Driscoll with Roy Keane.

Well I was just putting our record breaking captains in the comparison with each other and players who had actually been playing during the time I mentioned Trap/MON tenures.

sydthebeat

Fans follow success.

In Ireland our domestic league is paltry, so we really only have our international team to follow.

I remember the heady days of 88 - 94 when we could actually compete with the world best on the biggest stages. The following was fantastic.
Compare that to the rugby team of the time who were constantly last or second last in the 6 nations. The would command very little of the media attention.

Them through the late 90's with first Ulster, then Munster, and then later Leinster all having success in the club European stage. ... which feed into the international team with a couple of triple crowns and then championships and the grand slam.

So both sports progress have been almost mirrored, success in one at the time of a drought in the other.

Media, and fans, follow success.

A_Sober_Paddy

In terms of the size of the playing population of both sports...rugby has 12 nations who play at any decent level of which you have about 6 trams who aare any good...in football the top 12 nations are all top class and even down as far as the top 20 there is some seriously good teams...being the best in rugby is grand, fair play...but even being in the top 200 footballers in the world is so much more difficult

Bridge93

These discussions never end well. And with no way of actually accurately quantifying it, nobody can be proved right or wrong. It will go around in circles until the thread is locked.
Both have their fanbases but hopefully we can all just get behind both teams rather than comparing them. Articles like that help no one.

Will I Amnt

Samoa are 10th in the world rankings in rugby. They've a population similar to Cork.

Balmed Out

I wouldnt feel too sorry for them, the likes of Meyler would earn more then Sexton. He may also be a more talented sports person but rugby is a smaller bowl so Sexton will get more attention in Ireland.
Id still prefer to be Meyler.

As for the crowds fair enough rugby is more passionately supported however if an Irish soccer team were in a world cup semi final on the same day as the rugby team the general public would be so worked up so as to barely register the rugby.

Balmed Out

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Samoa are 10th in the world rankings in rugby. They've a population similar to Cork.

Actually about 40% of the population of Cork however I think most of the team are ex-pats.

ThunbergsAreGo

Keane is the third highest European scorer of all time, playing for Ireland. Some achievement.

Rugby is a very accessible game though. For example noone cheers in football when a player kicks it out for a throw ☺

super_furry

There are only ten countries in the world that play rugby to any kind of professional level. Ireland are one of the best rugby teams in the world by default almost but there's nothing Irish sports fans love more than a winning team so the rugby side get all the attention while the mini-bunfight that is the Six Nations is on.

Bridge93

Balmed Out wrote: »

I wouldnt feel too sorry for them, the likes of Meyler would earn more then Sexton. He may also be a more talented sports person but rugby is a smaller bowl so Sexton will get more attention in Ireland.
Id still prefer to be Meyler.

As for the crowds fair enough rugby is more passionately supported however if an Irish soccer team were in a world cup semi final on the same day as the rugby team the general public would be so worked up so as to barely register the rugby.

Again how do you quantify 'a more talented sports person?' The two sports have different skill sets and requirements. Sexton would appear to be miles better at his set than Meyler at his.
If money is what drives you then yes I agree I would prefer to be Meyler. If it's accolades and success at your sport then it's sexton.

Balmed Out

Bridge93 wrote: »

Again how do you quantify 'a more talented sports person?' The two sports have different skill sets and requirements. Sexton would appear to be miles better at his set than Meyler at his.
If money is what drives you then yes I agree I would prefer to be Meyler. If it's accolades and success at your sport then it's sexton.

Thence I said may also be......
If rugby was as competitive as soccer Sexton might be a Glen Crowe or then again he could be an international star. We'll never know.

Bridge93

As people have said winning is a big factor especially for the bandwagoners all sports get. The fact are rugby team at times are not great to watch but are effective is more attractive than the turgid stuff the footballers play with limited success.
The rugby guys are more visible and accessible due to living here.
A lot (most?) football fans probably support their club more than the national team (you here the complaints when it's international window time.) this contributes to less excitement and clamour. It's the opposite in rugby with the international games being the highlight of the season.

Bridge93

Balmed Out wrote: »

Thence I said may also be......
If rugby was as competitive as soccer Sexton might be a Glen Crowe or then again he could be an international star. We'll never know.

We agree so it's an endless debate really. It all depends on individual preferences

Ranchu

CSF wrote: »

Do you actually believe this? On a worldwide level our football players are much more household names than our rugby players and probably earn more on average.

Nothing to do with earnings or international recognition. I'm talking about the regular paddy on the street is far more likely to recognise far more players from our international rugby side than our football side. There are loads of reasons for this the main ones being success and the players play their club rugby in Ireland.

I can't remember the last time I saw an irish football player in an ad barring Robbie Keane. Lots of our rugby players are featuring in ads regularly.

dfx-

You could change the last line.

Irish fans are more passionate about success than anything else. in the mid 90s when Irish Rugby could not beat Scotland or France and Ireland were at World Cups and playoffs it would've been the opposite. Have a look at Youtube and the spontaneous celebrations in the street over Italia 90.

When I started playing it, very few people could name the dominant multiple reigning club champions (Shannon) at the time and I suspect a lot still couldn't name three club sides or even name the sponsors.

Fr Tod Umptious

The double standard when it comes to drink and the media is spot on.

The two biggest club tournaments this side of the world ate sponsored by drink companies but there is hardly a word about it.

One of Irish rugby's biggest sponsor is a drinks company, yet there is hardly a bad word said about it.

If it were the FAI or the GAA the knives would be out for them.

But this "is rugby more popular than soccer" debate happened back in 2007, on Off the Ball no less, and again it was at a time when the soccer team were at a low ebb and the rugby team were winning.

But at the end of the day soccer will always prove more popular, people will always come back to soccer.

In the sense of being in the public consciousness rugby will never have an Italia 90, it will never have a Saipan, it will never have Henry hand ball.

Balmed Out

Ranchu wrote: »

Lots of our rugby players are featuring in ads regularly.

I think part of the reason for this is most shopping is done by females most of whom watch rugby players rather then soccer.

Will I Amnt

Balmed Out wrote: »

Actually about 40% of the population of Cork however I think most of the team are ex-pats.

I thought they were both around the 200k mark?

Ferris_Bueller

AdamDs point about the six nations occurring over a 2 month period where people can really get behind their team is a good one I think. I would consider myself a big supporter of the Irish soccer team, but even I go through phases where I am less interested because there are such large gaps between games. There is usually a decent bit of build up to a big Irish soccer game but the following week it's over and it's back to no coverage, rugby gets a good amount of coverage for 2 months solid and people really get into it, the same thing even happens for TV shows, look at how many people get so engrossed in Love/Hate or the X factor because it's something for them to follow every week for a period of a few months.

How expensive are tickets to Irish rugby matches? I don't go to as many soccer games in the Aviva due to the price, it's hard to justify paying €50 for a match that they should either A) easily win (Gibraltar, Georgia, etc.) or will probably lose (Germany, Italy etc.). We're lucky that in this campaign we have two teams close to our level in Scotland and Poland, both games will probably be a sell out, but even so, it's a lot less appealing buying a ticket to a match that you think you're going to lose. I know some people who go up to Ireland/Leinster rugby matches purely because it is the "go to" event that weekend, rugby must be at an all time high in terms of popularity in this country.

recylingbin

If I was fat and into taking goofballs, o reckon I could be the best rugby player in the world. However, that's not the case in games where skill is required.

CSF

Ranchu wrote: »

Nothing to do with earnings or international recognition. I'm talking about the regular paddy on the street is far more likely to recognise far more players from our international rugby side than our football side. There are loads of reasons for this the main ones being success and the players play their club rugby in Ireland.

I can't remember the last time I saw an irish football player in an ad barring Robbie Keane. Lots of our rugby players are featuring in ads regularly.

This isn't true. I can only think of 3 current Irish rugby players I would recognise on the street. O'Connell, Sexton and Kearney.

Harry Palmr

Irish rugby is the game of choice for the chattering classes - a class which the media inhabits fully so its hardly a surprise the game and the players are lauded when the game is in such good shape. The Irish naturally like cheering on Irish teams who do well esp as the players are largely native (Celtic League etc) and of course they play in Ireland

The footie that most people actually watch week in week out is in another country while the results and style of the national side are mainly mediocre. The domestic league is considered an utter irrelevance by all but the hardcore.

Ranchu

CSF wrote: »

This isn't true. I can only think of 3 current Irish rugby players I would recognise on the street. O'Connell, Sexton and Kearney.

That's you though. It's probably not a reflection on the wider casual population. I would recognise the vast majority of both teams but again thats not a fair reflection of the wider population.

I go to the vast majority of Irish football home games whereas I haven't been to an international rugby game in nearly a decade because the tickets are too expensive or hard to get. There's no competition in which international side is more popular.

Harry Palmr

CSF wrote: »

This isn't true. I can only think of 3 current Irish rugby players I would recognise on the street. O'Connell, Sexton and Kearney.

But could you probably name most of the side from say 8-10 years ago? Could be a generational thing!

CSF

Ranchu wrote: »

That's you though. It's probably not a reflection on the wider casual population. I would recognise the vast majority of both teams but again thats not a fair reflection of the wider population.

I go to the vast majority of Irish football home games whereas I haven't been to an international rugby game in nearly a decade because the tickets are too expensive or hard to get. There's no competition in which international side is more popular.

There's definitely a bigger pool of matchgoing fans for the rugby team than the football but Id be very surprised if the likes of John O'Shea, Paul McShane and James McClean weren't better known than their rugby equivalents, I mean obviously it goes without saying that everyone would know the best few players on each team.

And then there'll be the lesser players from both teams who neutrals don't know at all.

ceegee

CSF wrote: »

This isn't true. I can only think of 3 current Irish rugby players I would recognise on the street. O'Connell, Sexton and Kearney.

I'd say most people would recognise Heaslip, Best, D'arcy and Bowe as well. From those who retired recently Stringer, O'Gara and O'Driscoll would be known by practically everyone.

From the football team there is no way theres 10 players who played in the last 5 years who'd be as well known. I'd say a lot of non-fans would struggle to recognise many bar Keane, O'Shea and Given from the current group, with Duff and Dunne from those recently retired.

CSF

Harry Palmr wrote: »

But could you probably name most of the side from say 8-10 years ago? Could be a generational thing!

I don't think so. Throw some names at me. O'Driscoll, O Gara and Leo Cullen for sure.

CSF

ceegee wrote: »

I'd say most people would recognise Heaslip, Best, D'arcy and Bowe as well. From those who retired recently Stringer, O'Gara and O'Driscoll would be known by practically everyone.

From the football team there is no way theres 10 players who played in the last 5 years who'd be as well known. I'd say a lot of non-fans would struggle to recognise many bar Keane, O'Shea and Given from the current group, with Duff and Dunne from those recently retired.

Other than Heaslip I genuinely couldn't tell you the first name of the players you mentioned, never mind their face.

I'm not a rugby fan obviously, but that's kind of the point.