Part 4 Tenancy - early termination

TireeTerror

Looking for some advice.

Ive a 1 year fixed term tenancy. I was given notice by the estate agent that the landlord was not willing to let me stay after the 1 year had passed as he intends to sell the house.

Im aware that is one of the conditions that a landlord can use to terminate what had become a part 4 tenancy early. The question I have is very specific. From links I have seen it appears a landlord must "intend to sell within 3 months" but what exactly does that mean? Does it mean it must be sold, or it must be put on the market or what?

This house has actually been up for sale for the last 6 years, and has been up for sale the entire time I have lived here.

The landlord was good enough to give me more notice than he was required because he wanted to give me as much time as possible to try and find somewhere suitable. Its not easy when you have a dog, horse and 3 cats!

Im annoyed about this because he was over at this house collecting some personal things recently and I said to him that I wanted to stay for as long as he permitted. I've been a good tenant, house is spotless and rent always paid on time. In the last house I rented the landlord moved back to live in the house so I had to leave there also, I guess this is the downside of renting!

As the house has been for sale for 6 years and from what the estate agent said he isn't reducing the price, its probably unlikely it will be sold within 3 months. What action could I take and has anyone any examples of the outcome of similar cases?

Thanks.

The_Conductor

If the house is on the market (even if it has been on the market for the preceding 6 years)- the landlord can legitimately end the tenancy on the grounds that he intends to sell the property. The fact that it has officially been on the market for so long- actually strengthens his case- aka he is not simply saying its on the market to get rid of you.

It sounds like renting it to you- was only ever a short term fix for the landlord- perhaps he was per-occupied with something and wanted a break from trying to sell the property?

In any event- the fact that it has been officially on the market for the last 6 years- means the landlord is trying to sell the property- and can legitimately invoke the selling the property clause to vacate the tenancy.

Ps- it is not in the landlord's interest to continue to rent the property to you on a number of grounds- not least the fact that you have a horse. He is subject to inspection and legally obliged to register the premises as an Equine Premises with the Department of Agriculture- by virtue of your horse. You moved the goalposts with the horse- and are subject to a myriad of other legislation- alongside the Residential Tenancies Act. I suspect if you disputed the termination of the lease- you may find the 2004 RTA does not apply at all- that the presence of the horse has turned the lease into a commercial lease.......... Horses are not legally classified as pets, regardless of what you or others may imagine.......

weisses

The_Conductor wrote: »

. You moved the goalposts with the horse- and are subject to a myriad of other legislation- alongside the Residential Tenancies Act. I suspect if you disputed the termination of the lease- you may find the 2004 RTA does not apply at all- that the presence of the horse has turned the lease into a commercial lease.......... Horses are not legally classified as pets, regardless of what you or others may imagine.......

Can I ask where the bolded part above is stated in the Registration of Horses act ?

AFAIK you don't even have to own the land to register

Who must register? Anyone who owns or has charge of a premises (including land) on which there are equine regardless of whether he or she owns the equines or the premises or the land.

Marcusm

The_Conductor wrote: »

If the house is on the market (even if it has been on the market for the preceding 6 years)- the landlord can legitimately end the tenancy on the grounds that he intends to sell the property. The fact that it has officially been on the market for so long- actually strengthens his case- aka he is not simply saying its on the market to get rid of you.

It sounds like renting it to you- was only ever a short term fix for the landlord- perhaps he was per-occupied with something and wanted a break from trying to sell the property?

In any event- the fact that it has been officially on the market for the last 6 years- means the landlord is trying to sell the property- and can legitimately invoke the selling the property clause to vacate the tenancy.

Ps- it is not in the landlord's interest to continue to rent the property to you on a number of grounds- not least the fact that you have a horse. He is subject to inspection and legally obliged to register the premises as an Equine Premises with the Department of Agriculture- by virtue of your horse. You moved the goalposts with the horse- and are subject to a myriad of other legislation- alongside the Residential Tenancies Act. I suspect if you disputed the termination of the lease- you may find the 2004 RTA does not apply at all- that the presence of the horse has turned the lease into a commercial lease.......... Horses are not legally classified as pets, regardless of what you or others may imagine.......

The grounds are not that he intends to sell but intends to enter into an enforceable contract for ale. Given the periods involved for searches, title checks etc and the 6 years of marketing, I would ask to see evidence, especially riven the disruption likely to be caused by moving the animals, that there is a prospect of the termination grounds actually applying.

The_Conductor

If the property has only been tenanted for 1 out of the last 6 years- that the property has been on the market- and the tenant has the property at below fair market rent- it is as good a defence as any.

If the tenant took the property- in the knowledge it was on the market- and after year has taken umbrage when the landlord has told them that they are making a renewed effort to sell the property- it sounds like the tenant knows they are onto a good thing- and wants to continue staying in the property.

Personally- if I were the owner- I'd just sell for whatever the going rate is- and get rid of it. Perhaps- offer to sell it to the tenant- if they can get the funds together? Just get rid of it though- with property tax, water charges, compliance regulations etc- its not viable to keep it longterm as is...........

The tenant will have issues trying to find somewhere to keep their horse. This is the tenants concern- and is something they should attempt to normalise long term.

If the tenant decides to dispute this- they had better be prepared for a little more than they necessarily expect.........

Marcusm

The_Conductor wrote: »

If the property has only been tenanted for 1 out of the last 6 years- that the property has been on the market- and the tenant has the property at below fair market rent- it is as good a defence as any.

If the tenant took the property- in the knowledge it was on the market- and after year has taken umbrage when the landlord has told them that they are making a renewed effort to sell the property- it sounds like the tenant knows they are onto a good thing- and wants to continue staying in the property.

Personally- if I were the owner- I'd just sell for whatever the going rate is- and get rid of it. Perhaps- offer to sell it to the tenant- if they can get the funds together? Just get rid of it though- with property tax, water charges, compliance regulations etc- its not viable to keep it longterm as is...........

The tenant will have issues trying to find somewhere to keep their horse. This is the tenants concern- and is something they should attempt to normalise long term.

If the tenant decides to dispute this- they had better be prepared for a little more than they necessarily expect.........

I can understand why you feel that but unfortunately once the landlord has surrendered possession of the property under a lease and allowed part 4 rights to accrue, a stubborn tenant well informed as to their rights would see that merely wanting to sell does not mean that he can get the tenant out. I suspect this is doubly so if the tenant has permitted viewings (which I suspect is the case here if they've been in occupation for a year while it's been up for sale).

Despite what many believe or speculate about, the security of tenure rests strongly with the tenant as if they are unwilling to move out, the landlord will need to prove his case in front of a court to get an eviction order. If he cannot show an impending sale, I suspect he is unlikely to obtain such an order and the tenant would be permitted to exercise their rights to stay put.

Did you see the recent case of over holding in South Dublin which was impeding a sale - that shows the extent of what needs to be proved to move an unwilling tenant. And just to be clear, that would be a vindication of the tenant's rights not a restriction of the landlord's.

TireeTerror

I phoned Threshold about this, they stated that some form of paperwork must take place within the 3 month period after the tenant has left. They say putting the property up for sale is not enough to justify putting out a tenant with part 4 rights.

@the conductor: He has had a few people renting out the house in the last 6 years, not just myself. I do not know what gave you the impression that I am paying below market value for rent. In any case, because I really do not want to move from here as I have joined local clubs and made friends with the neighbours, I asked the letting agent if they would ask the landlord if we could stay and I would pay up to €150 more per month. I am unsure if they even asked as she said "I will ask but I do not think he will go for it as he really wants to sell it".

The horse is not actually in the property, he is in the field next door that I rent from a local farmer.

The problem I have is that I do not want to be horrible to the landlord as he has been no bother at all and when i did meet him we got on well, but I am genuinely really concerned as I am not convinced I will be able to find somewhere suitable in such a short space of time given the horse and having to find somewhere decent.

Mezcita

TireeTerror wrote: »

I phoned Threshold about this, they stated that some form of paperwork must take place within the 3 month period after the tenant has left. They say putting the property up for sale is not enough to justify putting out a tenant with part 4 rights.

@the conductor: He has had a few people renting out the house in the last 6 years, not just myself. I do not know what gave you the impression that I am paying below market value for rent. In any case, because I really do not want to move from here as I have joined local clubs and made friends with the neighbours, I asked the letting agent if they would ask the landlord if we could stay and I would pay up to €150 more per month. I am unsure if they even asked as she said "I will ask but I do not think he will go for it as he really wants to sell it".

The horse is not actually in the property, he is in the field next door that I rent from a local farmer.

The problem I have is that I do not want to be horrible to the landlord as he has been no bother at all and when i did meet him we got on well, but I am genuinely really concerned as I am not convinced I will be able to find somewhere suitable in such a short space of time given the horse and having to find somewhere decent.

Hang on a second here. The fact that you don't want to move because you've joined clubs and made friends is totally irrelevant. That the house has been for sale and not sold is also irrelevant. Landlord could be asking for too much for it for all you know but that's his decision.

You've been told by the agent (with plenty of advance notice by the agent) that the lease won't be renewed once it's up. Find somewhere else and move out.

The_Conductor

Are you in a position to make an offer for the property yourself? If you are so attached to the area- it might be an ideal situation all round?

TireeTerror

No I am not in a position to purchase the house, and if I was I would be offering about 100k less than its on for, which is about right for the property.

@mezcita : I think your post is a lot of nonsense. It is important what I want to do because I have legal rights as does any tenant. It is not up to the landlord to decide if he was going to "renew" the tenancy a you state. I would not have renewed any lease anyway because I know I am past the 6 months period turning my current tenancy into a part 4 one. I am looking for somewhere else and have been on every single website there is and also put notices up in local shops etc, so I am doing everything I can to try and find somewhere. Whether I find somewhere or not in time is another matter.

The issue is what to do "if" I move out, or if I object to the grounds for asking me to vacate and remain here. That is not me being difficult, it is simply exercising my rights as a tenant. If a landlord does not want to risk this situation he could avoid it by only offering 6 months terms when I moved in, it was his decision to make a 12 month tenancy and by allowing the 6 month period to pass it turned into a part 4 tenancy. The fact is that if the house is not in the genuine process of being sold to someone within 3 months I can take the landlord to court and that seems the likely direction I will be going as I do not wish to be moved just because he wants to sell it. It has to be in the process of being sold.

Jasper79

Why would you bother fighting it, it's not your house and you can't stay there indefinitely.

He can sell the house, he can decide to move himself or a family member into it.

Either way you will have to vacate , sure you can prolong it, but eventually you will have to leave and find somewhere else, and can forget about a reference if make the landlord bring you to court to evict you.

Also if you want to stay in the area and people talk, you could find it very difficult to find another landlord willing to let a house to you .

davo10

As far as I am aware, there is no definitive rule on "how far along" in the sale process the ll needs to be, only that the house is genuinely for sale and that you were notified in the correct manner.

Just be aware op that as your one year contract is up, if you insist on staying beyond your notice period, the ll is entitled to raise your rent in line with market rate which no doubt the EA willbe able to provide evidence to support the increase. You can appeal that increase but if you lose, you pay the backdated amount.

The guy is selling his house, he is not looking for more money as you would have posted that if he was, you have been given ample notice, it's not your house and legally he is entitled to do what he's doing as selling the property is a bone fide reason to terminate a part 4 tenancy.

If you lose the court case which given the fact that the house is on the market and your fixed term tenancy has elapsed, looks a good bet, you pay for his legal costs as well as your own. Move on.

Mezcita

TireeTerror wrote: »

No I am not in a position to purchase the house, and if I was I would be offering about 100k less than its on for, which is about right for the property.

@mezcita : I think your post is a lot of nonsense. It is important what I want to do because I have legal rights as does any tenant. It is not up to the landlord to decide if he was going to "renew" the tenancy a you state. I would not have renewed any lease anyway because I know I am past the 6 months period turning my current tenancy into a part 4 one. I am looking for somewhere else and have been on every single website there is and also put notices up in local shops etc, so I am doing everything I can to try and find somewhere. Whether I find somewhere or not in time is another matter.

The issue is what to do "if" I move out, or if I object to the grounds for asking me to vacate and remain here. That is not me being difficult, it is simply exercising my rights as a tenant. If a landlord does not want to risk this situation he could avoid it by only offering 6 months terms when I moved in, it was his decision to make a 12 month tenancy and by allowing the 6 month period to pass it turned into a part 4 tenancy. The fact is that if the house is not in the genuine process of being sold to someone within 3 months I can take the landlord to court and that seems the likely direction I will be going as I do not wish to be moved just because he wants to sell it. It has to be in the process of being sold.

What's nonsense about it? You are not exercising your rights as a tenant. You are planning on manipulating the system just because you don't want to leave. The very system which is set up to help people where landlords are actually behaving unfairly towards tenants. This landlord has not behaved unfairly towards you but you are seeking to prolong your stay just because you are not happy about leaving.

You "do not wish to be moved on just because he wants to sell" the property. Tough. It's not your house. It's his.

By all means, go down the route of refusing to leave, court cases etc. But once you go down the legal route it's a different ball game. You've been given ample notice to leave and are looking for an angle on how you can stay on just because you don't want to go.

As Jasper points out, you have to leave eventually.

TireeTerror

Mezcita wrote: »

What's nonsense about it? You are not exercising your rights as a tenant. You are planning on manipulating the system just because you don't want to leave. The very system which is set up to help people where landlords are actually behaving unfairly towards tenants. This landlord has not behaved unfairly towards you but you are seeking to prolong your stay just because you are not happy about leaving.

You "do not wish to be moved on just because he wants to sell" the property. Tough. It's not your house. It's his.

By all means, go down the route of refusing to leave, court cases etc. But once you go down the legal route it's a different ball game. You've been given ample notice to leave and are looking for an angle on how you can stay on just because you don't want to go.

As Jasper points out, you have to leave eventually.

I think Ive made it clear that I will be leavinog and have been looking for somewhere else. I understand that its his house and I have no wish to do anything to upset him, but I put my own needs and my families needs first. So if that means I have to stay longer until I do find somewhere suitable, then that is what I will do. He actually told me I could stay longer until this letter arrived 2 weeks ago.

I hope I do find somewhere and there will be nothing to worry about.

davo10

TireeTerror wrote: »

I think Ive made it clear that I will be leavinog and have been looking for somewhere else. I understand that its his house and I have no wish to do anything to upset him, but I put my own needs and my families needs first. So if that means I have to stay longer until I do find somewhere suitable, then that is what I will do. He actually told me I could stay longer until this letter arrived 2 weeks ago.

I hope I do find somewhere and there will be nothing to worry about.

Op I don't think you are grasping the reality of this. I suspect you think you are entitled to stay but as posted before sale of property is one of the bone fide reasons that a part 4 tenancy can be terminated. The ll could not do this during the fixed term but can and has done now. If you mess him around, firstly a notice of eviction is likely to arrive and secondly your chances of another rental (remember the EA is likely to warn others) in the area will evaporate.

I think we can all appreciate that if you have a family, you may not be able to move by a certain date, but it is difficult to agree with your belief that you have a right to stay and will go to court to prove it. You may not find the perfect house but your current situation is all downside with eventual inevitable removal and damage to your reputation.

TireeTerror

Just thought I would update this. I couldn't find somewhere suitable in time so I sold my horse, my pool table and my bar. Oh the sacrifices of a rental tenant!