Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

cul beag

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

As the poster above me said, Kilkenny have been doing it for years, dropping their half forward back to midfield area. Thing was other teams weren't following suit.

McGrath has done superbly well with this team and you can see the gameplan coming in properly as McGuinness did with Donegal. The first thing is to make your team hard to score against, second element is then being able to score yourself. The way the game is going, it is success that people want, buggar the visual element of it. The purists want an open game of hurling, but teams want to win, and if using tactics like the sweeper and crowding the midfield area works, then other teams will copy it. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Fair play to Maurice Shanahan, cool as a breeze when needed.

Unfortunately hurling is one of the most skillful games in the world and that is what makes it stand out from the rest. If we want to see defensive systems,turnovers etc we can watch Donegal in the Ulster football championship. The game we grew up watching with the likes of Ring,Kehir, Barry Murphy playing was that of natural hurling ability and not one of brute force where in some cases you wouldn't need a Hurley just raw strength to drive through the traffic in the middle section of the pitch. Leave these naturally gifted hurlers hurl and take the chains off so we can see a proper game of hurling again and not the tripe that we saw on Sunday.

rebel girl 15

cul beag wrote: »

Unfortunately hurling is one of the most skillful games in the world and that is what makes it stand out from the rest. If we want to see defensive systems,turnovers etc we can watch Donegal in the Ulster football championship. The game we grew up watching with the likes of Ring,Kehir, Barry Murphy playing was that of natural hurling ability and not one of brute force where in some cases you wouldn't need a Hurley just raw strength to drive through the traffic in the middle section of the pitch. Leave these naturally gifted hurlers hurl and take the chains off so we can see a proper game of hurling again and not the tripe that we saw on Sunday.

But at the end of the day, do any of the 30+ players on the pitch care how it looks, or how skilful it appears to the spectators if they walk off the pitch next week with a League medal in their pocket? It is a win at all costs mentality and I can understand it, given the finances poured into the county teams

Giveitfong

It seems to me that the systems employed by the two teams were not the reason for the poor quality of the game, but rather the poor technical quality of the play. There was an extraordinary amount of fumbling (especially by Waterford), of passes being mis-hit or going astray, and of poor long balls being easily cut out by the opposition.

Then there was the terrible shooting by both sides. If half of the 39 wides had been scored, both teams would have exceeded thirty points and we would have been marvelling about that. The key point here is that, despite the systems, there was no shortage of scoring opportunities, with the actual number of scores being restricted by poor execution.

While the tall flags at the town end of the stadium suggested that the wind was blowing straight down the pitch, it must have been blowing across the field towards the Ryan Stand given the number of wides to the right of the country goal and to the left of the town goal. Yet neither team appeared to grasp this and adjust accordingly – apart, of course, from Conor McGrath who gave a great exhibition of accurate shooting (although even he missed a couple).

These deficiencies are, of course, very unusual for two teams full of very skillful players whose ball control and striking are usually of the highest order. I wonder if both teams were unsure of how to approach this game, or if they were more concerned about countering the opposition rather than playing their own game. Whatever the reason, both teams were a bit at sixes and sevens for much of the game, although the quality improved immensely in extra time when it seemed as though both sides had decided to give it a real go.

Overall, I thought Waterford should have won the game. While both teams had a similar number of wides, nearly a half of Waterford’s were from scorable frees most of which would have been nailed on any other day. And who is to say that Maurice Shanahan would not have been afflicted with the same inaccuracy if he had started the game and been on the frees from the start? Patrick Curran is normally a very reliable freetaker. However, on a day when most players are making lots of mistakes, it is the freetaker(s) whose inaccuracies are placed most glaringly into the spotlight.

Waterford also hit more really bad wides from play than Clare, especially the series of misses into the country goal in the third quarter. Waterford also gave away a lot of unnecessary frees which McGrath punished. For example, the free given away by Tadhg de Búrca to give Clare their late equaliser in normal time was very silly – all he had to do was keep shepherding the Clare player in possesion along the sideline. Stephen O’Keeffe had a particularly bad day, hitting numerous puckouts and clearances over the sideline or straight to opponents. His tendency to commit howlers, which he seemed to have put behind him this year, came back with a vengeance on this occasion.

Overall, Clare inflicted very little damage on the Waterford defence during the game, relying on handy frees and some excellent shooting from out the field to get scores on the board. If Waterford had been more disciplined on the field and had converted their “normal” quota of frees, they would have won this game comfortably. I expect the standard of play will be much better from both sides next Sunday, but with Waterford having more room for improvement, they should prevail on this occasion.

waterford28

Look lads I'm sorry to say this but Ger loughlain was right the other day on tg4. Waterford over the past couple of years are "a team of the future". Personally I think Mcgrath is lucky to inherit the team he has. We have the best keeper in ireland in socky, the best defence too. Then on top of that we have the likes of the Bennetts (Stephen Shane and Kieran) paddy curran, Colin Dunford. Tradgh de burca, Tom devine & Aussie? All coming through as youngsters? Jesus if coady had that every team in ireland could forget about an all ireland for the next 10 years.

Take a step back look at u21s and minors the last few years, Kilkenny win nothing but still coady and Dempsey mound them into players to suit positions.

Basically I think Mcgraths time has been and went

PTH2009

waterford28 wrote: »

Look lads I'm sorry to say this but Ger loughlain was right the other day on tg4. Waterford over the past couple of years are "a team of the future". Personally I think Mcgrath is lucky to inherit the team he has. We have the best keeper in ireland in socky, the best defence too. Then on top of that we have the likes of the Bennetts (Stephen Shane and Kieran) paddy curran, Colin Dunford. Tradgh de burca, Tom devine & Aussie? All coming through as youngsters? Jesus if coady had that every team in ireland could forget about an all ireland for the next 10 years.

Take a step back look at u21s and minors the last few years, Kilkenny win nothing but still coady and Dempsey mound them into players to suit positions.

Basically I think Mcgraths time has been and went

McGrath is doing an OK job but needs to fix the system a bit (he said before Xmas he was rewatching the kilkenny semi final to point out the tactical mistakes and improve on them In 2016)

Derek could be in charge for a good few years yet . 2014 was a disaster but we were very unlucky not to beat Cork in the Munster qf

Who would you put in charge ??

Dick phelan

Let's be fair though the main problem on Sunday was our shooting and not the system, we badly missed Maurice and Paudie for the frees i counted i think 6 missed free's several which were easy chances, Had our shooting been decent we would have won that game by 5-6 points, system needs tweaking yes but we were the better team imo for the majority of the match just didn't take half the chances we had.

HatchetMan7

57 years without an all Ireland title. Here is the number of all Irelands the other counties have won since:
Kilkenny 22
Cork 11
Tipp 9
Offaly 4
Clare 3
Galway 3
Wexford 3
Limerick 1
Waterford 0.

That list above is much more painful to look at then the league final in my opinion. What i saw in the league final was two very committed, hardworking and skillful teams making a lot of mistakes.
Someone mentioned they'd rather go back to the way we were playing 10 years ago and win nothing than to win an all Ireland with the current system. Well that's easy for us supporters to say since it's the players that are putting in the ridiculous amount of work to try and bridge that 57 year gap. Do you really think the players care how they win an all Ireland at this stage. Can any Waterford poster here describe what it was like winning the Liam McCarthy cup in 1959? I can't even begin to imagine what that would be like and i don't give a flying f how we do it at this stage.

JesusRef

HatchetMan7 wrote: »

57 years without an all Ireland title. Here is the number of all Irelands the other counties have won since:
Kilkenny 22
Cork 11
Tipp 9
Offaly 4
Clare 3
Galway 3
Wexford 3
Limerick 1
Waterford 0.

That list above is much more painful to look at then the league final in my opinion. What i saw in the league final was two very committed, hardworking and skillful teams making a lot of mistakes.
Someone mentioned they'd rather go back to the way we were playing 10 years ago and win nothing than to win an all Ireland with the current system. Well that's easy for us supporters to say since it's the players that are putting in the ridiculous amount of work to try and bridge that 57 year gap. Do you really think the players care how they win an all Ireland at this stage. Can any Waterford poster here describe what it was like winning the Liam McCarthy cup in 1959? I can't even begin to imagine what that would be like and i don't give a flying f how we do it at this stage.

100% this - make us crap to watch, make us hated, make us winners - and feck what anyone else thinks

JeffKenna

Even during the "glory" years people from outside the county still gave a lot of stick over the fist pumping and badge kissing that went on. People will always find a reason to complain - so let them. I don't care if I'm watching utter garbage for the year if we're winning.

Professey Chin

As already said the way Waterford have been playing is nothing new. Go through KK over the last 15 years and theyve played 2 man forward lines, crowded midfields, pulled corner forwards back, played with swarm tactics, sweeping up breaking ball. No team has constantly played a 15 vs 15 game in years. Its just how it is now.

On Waterfords play the biggest issues we've seen repeatedly should be very simple ones in theory to fix...theory being the main word. The teams shape has a bad habit of falling too deep a lot. During the second half of extra time Sunday we had players like Ryan, O'Halloran, Dunford (He did get brought back on in extra time right? Or am I imagining things?) & Devine all in our midfield area with just Maurice hanging around further up. At that stage of the game all of these should be let run and nobody would have the legs for them. The few times they got to run things opened up and gave Devine 2 goal chances and Ryan another that he just stumbled at the wrong time. Instead just high potshots to nothing started again.

I'd wonder how much of this are tactics or how much lines up with the seemingly constant circle of people not laying the ball off so people aren't running because the runner doesn't lay the ball off possibly because he's not expecting anyone running with him and it goes around and around. Sunday alone I can remember Dunford running with Curran screaming for the ball in acres of space. Dunford got a point off it but he does it the whole time. Runs without lifting his head. Barron, Moran, Maurice I can remember straight away doing it too and just running right into traffic but at the same time nobody there to help or arriving late. It should be bet into players at this stage. No matter what, as soon as someone runs go with them. Not when you think they might need help or if you think you might get the ball but straight away. You might not get the ball this time or the next or the next but you'll always at the very least draw a man or cause someone to hesitate over where theyre going. It's a very simple thing but time and time again we just dont do it.

And on a completely seperate note, when will the GAA do a netflix/fight pass/wwe network thing and launch a proper video library service. Doesnt have to be live games but they have a ridiculous archive that should be much easier to go back and watch. And would definitely have a lot of subscribers

deiseach

What a depressing performance. Should have won that game easy.

*sees Offaly's result against Westmeath*

Professey Chin

Michael Ryan really is doing a great job with them. Delighted for him

PTH2009

We will be sick of seeing that Clare Jersey

League final replay and championship (which could end in a draw quite easily) and we're playing them in the under 21 championship in July

So if the league final replay ends in a draw after ET is it another replay. They should have best of 5 penalties with different players taking them

http://gaa.tickets.ie/Listing/EventInformation/29971

€25 again

Psychedelic

On KK being defensive, I don't think we ever saw them play with only two forwards in their opponent's half?

Giveitfong wrote: »

Then there was the terrible shooting by both sides. If half of the 39 wides had been scored, both teams would have exceeded thirty points and we would have been marvelling about that. The key point here is that, despite the systems, there was no shortage of scoring opportunities, with the actual number of scores being restricted by poor execution.

Dick phelan wrote: »

Let's be fair though the main problem on Sunday was our shooting and not the system, we badly missed Maurice and Paudie for the frees i counted i think 6 missed free's several which were easy chances, Had our shooting been decent we would have won that game by 5-6 points, system needs tweaking yes but we were the better team imo for the majority of the match just didn't take half the chances we had.

I wonder though are the poor wides because of not enough (or any!) shooting practice in training, with too much focus on winning "dirty ball" and tactics?

The other thing is, with the system the players usually have to shoot from further out, so there's a greater chance of missing. I'd like to see one of those heat maps of where all the points and wides were from.

carter10

€25 again on Sunday, Typical GAA suck as much money out of the supporters as possible. Sickening greed. Stuck an extra €2 on the programme last Sunday as well. Treating supporters like suckers.-

While I'm at it-on the week of a lot of publicity about Hillsborough- left the old stand last Sunday to be greeted by everyone having to leave by the ONE open exit, very dangerous situation. Not a steward to be seen and although there were numerous mentions about it on Social media- no comment or apology from the gaa. Again treating the supporter like a sucker.

letsseehere14

Psychedelic wrote:

I wonder though are the poor wides because of not enough (or any!) shooting practice in training, with too much focus on winning "dirty ball" and tactics?

I did mention this here, I think after the Kilkenny league match even though ye won that match. The system lends itself especially against better opposition to a low amount of goals and lots of long range efforts. It is why, come summer, I can't see Waterford winning the AI playing this way. Against the better teams the system as it stands just won't do enough damage on the score board to keep with Kilkenny or Tipperary

con89

Either or, if not both, Maurice Shanahan & Pauric Mahony need to start Sunday.

Had Maurice started I think Waterford would have won.
Lost count of how many frees Waterford missed before he Maurice came on with 15 minutes left.

No reliable free taker on the field, Patrick Curran, Austin Gleeson & Shane Bennett were swapping free taking responsibility.

Shane Fives my man of the match, seemed to catch every ball around him.

Maurice, Tommy Ryan, Brian O'Halloran & Tom Devine all had a positive influence after coming on.
Nobody had a bad game, although Jake Dillon didn't seem to see much of the ball. Gleeson wasn't up to his usual high standards but still played well.

Bennett & Curran had great games from play.

danganabu

Psychedelic wrote: »

The other thing is, with the system the players usually have to shoot from further out, so there's a greater chance of missing. I'd like to see one of those heat maps of where all the points and wides were from.

Exactly, people who are defending the tactics are trying to say that it was just a bad day at the office shooting wise and that other than that the ''system'' worked fine, but they fail to realise that the two things are inherently linked, and that will remain the case.

I for some unknown reason went to Thurles on Sunday as a neutral and it was putrid stuff, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry it was so bad. Again people who are defending the system say that it doesn't matter how you win an AI as long as you win it, that I can agree with, but the reality is you will not win an AI with that current system, its just not possible, there is a reason Waterford have been in two successive league finals but when faced with genuine opposition in the championship failed, the system is designed to ensure you don't loose but you have to go and win the game at some stage, the hurlers are there, no question but until McGrath gives them the license to show it they are destined to be just behind the contenders.

danganabu

carter10 wrote: »

€25 again on Sunday, Typical GAA suck as much money out of the supporters as possible. Sickening greed. Stuck an extra €2 on the programme last Sunday as well. Treating supporters like suckers.-

While I'm at it-on the week of a lot of publicity about Hillsborough- left the old stand last Sunday to be greeted by everyone having to leave by the ONE open exit, very dangerous situation. Not a steward to be seen and although there were numerous mentions about it on Social media- no comment or apology from the gaa. Again treating the supporter like a sucker.

€25 for a national final seems pretty reasonable to me, if you can find a cheaper equivilant in any other sport Id be amazed.

Programmes are done by Thurles Sarsfields themselves so the price is out of control of Croke Park or the stadium management.

danganabu

con89 wrote: »

Either or, if not both, Maurice Shanahan & Pauric Mahony need to start Sunday.

Had Maurice started I think Waterford would have won.
Lost count of how many frees Waterford missed before he Maurice came on with 15 minutes left.

No reliable free taker on the field, Patrick Curran, Austin Gleeson & Shane Bennett were swapping free taking responsibility.

Shane Fives my man of the match, seemed to catch every ball around him.

Maurice, Tommy Ryan, Brian O'Halloran & Tom Devine all had a positive influence after coming on.
Nobody had a bad game, although Jake Dillon didn't seem to see much of the ball. Gleeson wasn't up to his usual high standards but still played well.

Bennett & Curran had great games from play.

I don't think I would be starting Maurice, held his nerve brilliantly to land the pressure free but lets be honest he was dire up until that, he's touch looked miles off, I'd be keeping him for the last 20 minutes max.

carter10

danganabu wrote: »

€25 for a national final seems pretty reasonable to me, if you can find a cheaper equivilant in any other sport Id be amazed.

Programmes are done by Thurles Sarsfields themselves so the price is out of control of Croke Park or the stadium management.

Its not reasonable at all and its not 'any other sport' its an amateur association based on supporters not customers. Mostly it will be the same people next sunday as last and again the same people for the munster first round. They could even have taken off a token €5 in recognition of this but no the grab all association wouldn't think of it.
Most of these people like myself are already paying into club draws and joining supporters clubs etc. How much more money do they need to suck out of us?

Thurles Sarsfield charging the extra 2 euros is typical of gaa greed. Always looking for more off the loyal supporter.

danganabu

carter10 wrote: »

Its not reasonable at all and its not 'any other sport' its an amateur association based on supporters not customers. Mostly it will be the same people next sunday as last and again the same people for the munster first round. They could even have taken off a token €5 in recognition of this but no the grab all association wouldn't think of it.
Most of these people like myself are already paying into club draws and joining supporters clubs etc. How much more money do they need to suck out of us?

Thurles Sarsfield charging the extra 2 euros is typical of gaa greed. Always looking for more off the loyal supporter.

You talk as if this money is going into a big black hole, you do realise that almost every county board and a huge amount of clubs around the country are in debt. People seem to think that the GAA runs itself.

The fact that it is an amateur organisation is a complete red herring and irrelevant, besides its amateur in name only.

redlead

carter10 wrote: »

Its not reasonable at all and its not 'any other sport' its an amateur association based on supporters not customers. Mostly it will be the same people next sunday as last and again the same people for the munster first round. They could even have taken off a token €5 in recognition of this but no the grab all association wouldn't think of it.
Most of these people like myself are already paying into club draws and joining supporters clubs etc. How much more money do they need to suck out of us?

Thurles Sarsfield charging the extra 2 euros is typical of gaa greed. Always looking for more off the loyal supporter.

I've just stopped buying the programmes. With the way the Waterford team is named they never have accurate teams on them anyway and that's all you want from them. The rest of them are a load of crap. I just have the two teams on my phone and save the money.

25 for a national final is great value in my opinion.

seananigans

Diarmuid kirwan to ref the replay

Deskjockey

Psychedelic wrote: »

On KK being defensive, I don't think we ever saw them play with only two forwards in their opponent's half?

I have a picture from a Kilkenny league game from earlier this year where they had exactly that. I took it with my own phone. Kilkenny people seem to be conveniently blind about this at times, it seems to me.

mountgomery burns

Deskjockey wrote: »

I have a picture from a Kilkenny league game from earlier this year where they had exactly that. I took it with my own phone. Kilkenny people seem to be conveniently blind about this at times, it seems to me.

The Tipp game I'd say? Ryan telegraphed that they were going to play direct which was a mad idea anyway against Kilkenny and Cody duly brought them all back against the wind.

Donal Og highlighted it in the second half of the all ireland last year, the pictures from that night don't lie. And then he is labelled as a Kilkenny hater, you couldn't win with them.

Deskjockey

mountgomery burns wrote: »

The Tipp game I'd say? Ryan telegraphed that they were going to play direct which was a mad idea anyway against Kilkenny and Cody duly brought them all back against the wind.

Donal Og highlighted it in the second half of the all ireland last year, the pictures from that night don't lie. And then he is labelled as a Kilkenny hater, you couldn't win with them.

Yes it was the Tipp game. Not a mention of it in the paper the day after as it doesn't suit the narrative.

Just to add that yes I'm well aware that we do it a lot more than Kilkenny, but the way some of them go on, they only ever play 6 2 6 which is raiméas.

mountgomery burns

Some thoughts on the general state of play:


1) Progression

I have noticed a lot of dismay at no obvious signs of progression this year. I'm not exactly sure what was expected but I'd like to offer a counterpoint or two to the worries about the attack. This time last year, Maurice Shanahan and Paudie Mahony were the two best forwards on the Waterford team. Could you imagine last year knowing they wouldn't be available against Tipp in Thurles this year, or in a league semi and final? Do you think we would have thought we'd beat Tipp, score 3-23 against Limerick or be a last minute of additional time free from winning the league again?

Last year Shane Bennett played very well for his age but he has come on a lot in the space of a year and his been outstanding this year. Patrick Curran only came late into the panel, and has made some strides in 12 months. He was outstanding in the air on Sunday, tough as nails. Their mettle will be tested in the championship but with Maurice back you go from a forward line dependent on one player to one with options. There's room for improvement but let's not forget it's May.

I think some people believe the backline and midfield cannot get any better than last year but the very addition of a fit Darragh Fives is huge, even in terms of the options it gives. And I think there was plenty of scope for improvement all the same and I think the duly have improved.

2) The System

There really is too much talk about this. An extra man comes from midfield to cover center back while the center back drops in front of the full back. A corner forward roams around the middle to provide support play, and pace to attack and create overlaps in the opposition defense. And when not in position the team work to get back, work very hard. It's really not that complicated, intricate or indeed original. But it is effective and it has helped cultivate a belief that we can win every day we go out. Which was some turnaround from 2014.

But it cannot be used as the basis for how every game is won/lost. At the end of the day, the team did everything right except put the ball over the bar on Sunday. I agree that playing with reduced numbers and deeper lines means that when the ball moves quickly up the field sometimes a long range shot is the only or most convenient option. But I do think on Sunday there was some poor shooting from play and particularly from frees. What I think is being missed though is that when you work so hard to create chances and win frees it can get on top of you fairly easily when you miss a few. I believe there was a chain reaction on Sunday to that, and the confidence was dented. That can happen any day you go out, god knows there were days we hit plenty of wides in the heyday of Waterford hurling's attacking prowess. And there was no system to blame then!

The talent and work rate of the players first and foremost wins them games, how they setup (as has been proven by some imitations) merely complements their abilities.

3) Contenders

Now the most bemusing thing of all is the fact that we are being written off in some quarters to not being able to win later in the summer, that ultimately we are heading down the same road as last year. The bottom line is Waterford have not played a championship match since Kilkenny last year. They won the league already last year, so I think there's this expectation that unless they win every game by 10 points this year they haven't improved and it will be the same story.

I think that is beyond unrealistic. Ultimately, they cannot improve on last year's championship until they actually play in this year's championship. There is a tendency too I think to laud displays of great attacking flair where defense is neglected and bias towards it where great defense isn't heralded the same way. Clare beating Kilkenny a prime example of that, it was bizarre to see three pundits on Seo Spoirt on Friday tipping Clare to win. Despite what Waterford have done in the past year, a unanimous verdict in favour of Clare. Case and point really.

Moreover, we know enough about the heartbreak a leaky defense can cause. It's got a very talented Tipperary team beaten on more occasions in big matches now than bears mentioning. And further still, there are plenty of question marks over a lot of teams. Tipperary are not contenders according to their own, would not rule them out but at the same time it's hard to see what has been found that has not been there in the last 5 seasons. Galway could still be contenders, it's not beyond them, but it will be a tough road for them. Clare might well be, they are still missing a few but again they have more to prove than Waterford in my opinion.

And Kilkenny are still rightfully the favourites and are until they are knocked out, but the bottom line is Tyrell is gone, Power is gone, Aylward is injured, Mick Fennelly managed to get himself fit 3 times last year and was massive but you're expecting a lot to think that can continue, and Larkin has not hit a ball in the first 5 months of the year. It's not getting any easier for them, and the assumption that they'll all be available is exactly that. And when you assume...etc


If Waterford keep bringing the tenacity to matches the way they have done so far this year and can stay as relatively injury free as they have been to be fair in the past two seasons, then they will be contenders. And in May, there is no more than you can ask for.

PTH2009

redlead wrote: »

I've just stopped buying the programmes. With the way the Waterford team is named they never have accurate teams on them anyway and that's all you want from them. The rest of them are a load of crap. I just have the two teams on my phone and save the money.

25 for a national final is great value in my opinion.

The Waterford team is always wrong in the programmes for some reason. Shane Mcnulty always named at number 9

I love reading programmes and I pay €50 a year for a digital download of gaa programmes for my iPad (I always get the programmes the night before the games).

Topcat32

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Some thoughts on the general state of play:


1) Progression

I have noticed a lot of dismay at no obvious signs of progression this year. I'm not exactly sure what was expected but I'd like to offer a counterpoint or two to the worries about the attack. This time last year, Maurice Shanahan and Paudie Mahony were the two best forwards on the Waterford team. Could you imagine last year knowing they wouldn't be available against Tipp in Thurles this year, or in a league semi and final? Do you think we would have thought we'd beat Tipp, score 3-23 against Limerick or be a last minute of additional time free from winning the league again?

Last year Shane Bennett played very well for his age but he has come on a lot in the space of a year and his been outstanding this year. Patrick Curran only came late into the panel, and has made some strides in 12 months. He was outstanding in the air on Sunday, tough as nails. Their mettle will be tested in the championship but with Maurice back you go from a forward line dependent on one player to one with options. There's room for improvement but let's not forget it's May.

I think some people believe the backline and midfield cannot get any better than last year but the very addition of a fit Darragh Fives is huge, even in terms of the options it gives. And I think there was plenty of scope for improvement all the same and I think the duly have improved.

2) The System

There really is too much talk about this. An extra man comes from midfield to cover center back while the center back drops in front of the full back. A corner forward roams around the middle to provide support play, and pace to attack and create overlaps in the opposition defense. And when not in position the team work to get back, work very hard. It's really not that complicated, intricate or indeed original. But it is effective and it has helped cultivate a belief that we can win every day we go out. Which was some turnaround from 2014.

But it cannot be used as the basis for how every game is won/lost. At the end of the day, the team did everything right except put the ball over the bar on Sunday. I agree that playing with reduced numbers and deeper lines means that when the ball moves quickly up the field sometimes a long range shot is the only or most convenient option. But I do think on Sunday there was some poor shooting from play and particularly from frees. What I think is being missed though is that when you work so hard to create chances and win frees it can get on top of you fairly easily when you miss a few. I believe there was a chain reaction on Sunday to that, and the confidence was dented. That can happen any day you go out, god knows there were days we hit plenty of wides in the heyday of Waterford hurling's attacking prowess. And there was no system to blame then!

The talent and work rate of the players first and foremost wins them games, how they setup (as has been proven by some imitations) merely complements their abilities.

3) Contenders

Now the most bemusing thing of all is the fact that we are being written off in some quarters to not being able to win later in the summer, that ultimately we are heading down the same road as last year. The bottom line is Waterford have not played a championship match since Kilkenny last year. They won the league already last year, so I think there's this expectation that unless they win every game by 10 points this year they haven't improved and it will be the same story.

I think that is beyond unrealistic. Ultimately, they cannot improve on last year's championship until they actually play in this year's championship. There is a tendency too I think to laud displays of great attacking flair where defense is neglected and bias towards it where great defense isn't heralded the same way. Clare beating Kilkenny a prime example of that, it was bizarre to see three pundits on Seo Spoirt on Friday tipping Clare to win. Despite what Waterford have done in the past year, a unanimous verdict in favour of Clare. Case and point really.

Moreover, we know enough about the heartbreak a leaky defense can cause. It's got a very talented Tipperary team beaten on more occasions in big matches now than bears mentioning. And further still, there are plenty of question marks over a lot of teams. Tipperary are not contenders according to their own, would not rule them out but at the same time it's hard to see what has been found that has not been there in the last 5 seasons. Galway could still be contenders, it's not beyond them, but it will be a tough road for them. Clare might well be, they are still missing a few but again they have more to prove than Waterford in my opinion.

And Kilkenny are still rightfully the favourites and are until they are knocked out, but the bottom line is Tyrell is gone, Power is gone, Aylward is injured, Mick Fennelly managed to get himself fit 3 times last year and was massive but you're expecting a lot to think that can continue, and Larkin has not hit a ball in the first 5 months of the year. It's not getting any easier for them, and the assumption that they'll all be available is exactly that. And when you assume...etc


If Waterford keep bringing the tenacity to matches the way they have done so far this year and can stay as relatively injury free as they have been to be fair in the past two seasons, then they will be contenders. And in May, there is no more than you can ask for.

Agree with your thoughts on assumptions, this time last year who would have thought Ger Alyward, Shane Maloney or Conor Whelan would make such an impact in the championship. I have a feeling that Kilkenny will get Fennelly fit but this could be his last year, Larkin will also be strong, he was excellent when he came back from Kosovo, I think Liam Blanchfield will be given his chance to impress as will Rob Lennon if they can keep him fit, Waterford an Clare have to be the favourites tho.

mountgomery burns

Topcat32 wrote: »

Agree with your thoughts on assumptions, this time last year who would have thought Ger Alyward, Shane Maloney or Conor Whelan would make such an impact in the championship. I have a feeling that Kilkenny will get Fennelly fit but this could be his last year, Larkin will also be strong, he was excellent when he came back from Kosovo, I think Liam Blanchfield will be given his chance to impress as will Rob Lennon if they can keep him fit, Waterford an Clare have to be the favourites tho.

He was very good last year to be fair, there'll be a day he comes back from the well with no water though.

Been impressed with Lennon from what I've seen, no doubt Blanchfield is promising and Bolger looked good too for the 21s last year.

JesusRef

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Some thoughts on the general state of play:


1) Progression

I have noticed a lot of dismay at no obvious signs of progression this year. I'm not exactly sure what was expected but I'd like to offer a counterpoint or two to the worries about the attack. This time last year, Maurice Shanahan and Paudie Mahony were the two best forwards on the Waterford team. Could you imagine last year knowing they wouldn't be available against Tipp in Thurles this year, or in a league semi and final? Do you think we would have thought we'd beat Tipp, score 3-23 against Limerick or be a last minute of additional time free from winning the league again?

Last year Shane Bennett played very well for his age but he has come on a lot in the space of a year and his been outstanding this year. Patrick Curran only came late into the panel, and has made some strides in 12 months. He was outstanding in the air on Sunday, tough as nails. Their mettle will be tested in the championship but with Maurice back you go from a forward line dependent on one player to one with options. There's room for improvement but let's not forget it's May.

I think some people believe the backline and midfield cannot get any better than last year but the very addition of a fit Darragh Fives is huge, even in terms of the options it gives. And I think there was plenty of scope for improvement all the same and I think the duly have improved.

2) The System

There really is too much talk about this. An extra man comes from midfield to cover center back while the center back drops in front of the full back. A corner forward roams around the middle to provide support play, and pace to attack and create overlaps in the opposition defense. And when not in position the team work to get back, work very hard. It's really not that complicated, intricate or indeed original. But it is effective and it has helped cultivate a belief that we can win every day we go out. Which was some turnaround from 2014.

But it cannot be used as the basis for how every game is won/lost. At the end of the day, the team did everything right except put the ball over the bar on Sunday. I agree that playing with reduced numbers and deeper lines means that when the ball moves quickly up the field sometimes a long range shot is the only or most convenient option. But I do think on Sunday there was some poor shooting from play and particularly from frees. What I think is being missed though is that when you work so hard to create chances and win frees it can get on top of you fairly easily when you miss a few. I believe there was a chain reaction on Sunday to that, and the confidence was dented. That can happen any day you go out, god knows there were days we hit plenty of wides in the heyday of Waterford hurling's attacking prowess. And there was no system to blame then!

The talent and work rate of the players first and foremost wins them games, how they setup (as has been proven by some imitations) merely complements their abilities.

3) Contenders

Now the most bemusing thing of all is the fact that we are being written off in some quarters to not being able to win later in the summer, that ultimately we are heading down the same road as last year. The bottom line is Waterford have not played a championship match since Kilkenny last year. They won the league already last year, so I think there's this expectation that unless they win every game by 10 points this year they haven't improved and it will be the same story.

I think that is beyond unrealistic. Ultimately, they cannot improve on last year's championship until they actually play in this year's championship. There is a tendency too I think to laud displays of great attacking flair where defense is neglected and bias towards it where great defense isn't heralded the same way. Clare beating Kilkenny a prime example of that, it was bizarre to see three pundits on Seo Spoirt on Friday tipping Clare to win. Despite what Waterford have done in the past year, a unanimous verdict in favour of Clare. Case and point really.

Moreover, we know enough about the heartbreak a leaky defense can cause. It's got a very talented Tipperary team beaten on more occasions in big matches now than bears mentioning. And further still, there are plenty of question marks over a lot of teams. Tipperary are not contenders according to their own, would not rule them out but at the same time it's hard to see what has been found that has not been there in the last 5 seasons. Galway could still be contenders, it's not beyond them, but it will be a tough road for them. Clare might well be, they are still missing a few but again they have more to prove than Waterford in my opinion.

And Kilkenny are still rightfully the favourites and are until they are knocked out, but the bottom line is Tyrell is gone, Power is gone, Aylward is injured, Mick Fennelly managed to get himself fit 3 times last year and was massive but you're expecting a lot to think that can continue, and Larkin has not hit a ball in the first 5 months of the year. It's not getting any easier for them, and the assumption that they'll all be available is exactly that. And when you assume...etc


If Waterford keep bringing the tenacity to matches the way they have done so far this year and can stay as relatively injury free as they have been to be fair in the past two seasons, then they will be contenders. And in May, there is no more than you can ask for.

Great post - very sensible stuff - you are dead right

deisedude

redlead wrote: »

25 for a national final is great value in my opinion.

You would have paid €35 to sit in the stand to watch Munster play Edinburgh last Friday for a regular Pro 12 game so I'd agree €25 is good value

DiscoStew

According to reports Conlons injury is more long term than was originally predicted.
Shane Fives is also extremely doubtful for Sunday according to McGrath. Would imagine Gleeson or McNulty would slot in corner back rather than trying to reshuffle to include Maurice that way somehow.

DiscoStew

Pleasantly surprised to see that the Ladies football national league final replay between Waterford and Tipperary will take place before the men's league final Sunday. Hopefully Déise fans will be able to get in early and support both teams.

deiseach

DiscoStew wrote: »

Pleasantly surprised to see that the Ladies football national league final replay between Waterford and Tipperary will take place before the men's league final Sunday. Hopefully Déise fans will be able to get in early and support both teams.

Joined-up thinking! Whatever next, someone opening more than one gate out of the stand?

hurler on de ditch

JesusRef wrote: »

100% this - make us crap to watch, make us hated, make us winners - and feck what anyone else thinks

its no coincidence here we win an All Irealand on average once every 65 years or so and our record in Musters and Leagues is not much better ,we are lucky to be in with a chance of winning any of the above ,,but i have not seen many of these teams winning trophies with 2 or possibly 3 men in what should be a 6 man forward line,i myself would love to see us winning either of the above,but when you see us playing such a **** negative system,i really cant see it especially the big one ,granted we started well beating three of the top counties in the game,might have just been ahead on fitness but the games since then for me anyway have been horrendous to watch,its actually hard to put into words how watching Waterford play this brand of hurling pains but not only me but im sure thousands of people that pay to watch it ,lets hope things improve

seananigans

deiseach wrote: »

Joined-up thinking! Whatever next, someone opening more than one gate out of the stand?

i sent the story to the tip off email of the42.ie see will they pick up the story, wonder if some of ye might do the same for other papers ? if one crowd ring them for comment theyll have to cop the f on

Thegooche

What do yee make of an rinn? Any players worth mentioning come championship?

PTH2009

seananigans wrote: »

i sent the story to the tip off email of the42.ie see will they pick up the story, wonder if some of ye might do the same for other papers ? if one crowd ring them for comment theyll have to cop the f on

They guy with the keys must of went home for his tea.

I do find the stewards in semple a bit amauter and remind of lads who are just there for the free dinners and pints after. Wait til the championship where they will have assigned seats

Attendance did seem higher than was announced ???

The minors will play Limerick in Walsh Park in the Munster semi final on June 29th. Very good chance of a victory

mickmackmcgoo

In other news
Celtic challenge result South Kilkenny 5-18 Waterford City 0-2
That's a serious beating , I would have thought we would be stronger than that at 17 year old level

meathhurler48

I am becoming tired of posters complaining about our present style of set up. I have been supporting Waterford since 1948, probably not many of us left. My first game was the 1948 final v Cork in Thurles.The game has continuously evolved ever since. Our 1956/1963 team under John Keane revolutionised a game of brute force by introducing pace and skill. We should have won more even with that current Tipp team, Jimmy Doyle etc.

When I came out of Croke Park on Oct 4th. 1959 I never imagined that I would have to wait this long without another AI.

At present we have more strength in depth than we have ever had. If the system works, great. Our problem in the 1998/2008 was that we didn't have strength in depth.

At this stage all I want is to see Waterford win another AI before I depart. If it's the worst ever final and we win 0-2 to 0-1!I don't care. The present squad can then go on to win again in style.

robopaddy2

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

In other news
Celtic challenge result South Kilkenny 5-18 Waterford City 0-2
That's a serious beating , I would have thought we would be stronger than that at 17 year old level

Yea, but waterford city is what, 7 clubs? Let's not confuse this with our county u 17 side.

robopaddy2

Tipp minors had a big win over clare tonight. Shows what a good win ours was over Tipp last week. A home tie now v Limerick in the semi and with 2 big games under our belt we should be in with a big shout. Win and these lads stay hurling for the summer

Orizio

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

In other news
Celtic challenge result South Kilkenny 5-18 Waterford City 0-2
That's a serious beating , I would have thought we would be stronger than that at 17 year old level

Eh Waterford sides regularly get hammerings at these tournaments.

Orizio

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Tipp minors had a big win over clare tonight. Shows what a good win ours was over Tipp last week. A home tie now v Limerick in the semi and with 2 big games under our belt we should be in with a big shout. Win and these lads stay hurling for the summer

Supposed to be a very poor Clare team. Championship is wide open for anyone to win honestly, Cork are nominal favourites but will have had a three months wait. Really anyone can win this.

Cake Man

Good result for Tipp in Ennis alright, definitely shows it wasn't a bad result beating them recently.


Limerick probably not much better or worse than us it would seem going by a basic form line (Lk beating Clare, Wd beating Tipp and Tipp beating Clare), not that it really means much. With minor games it's very much all on the day. The fact that we're not out again until the end of June after the leaving certs kind of means the two games we've played to date won't count for much given the time between games. Same for Tipp, Limerick and Cork as well I guess.


Home advantage hopefully to be worth a few points, would be great to win and have a shot at Munster (for all our good work at this grade in recent years, we only have one Munster title to show for it and that was way back in 09).
Also a guaranteed AI quarter final at a minimum. Somebody else pointed out recently that Munster runner-up play Ulster champions so you'd have to expect the Munster side to come through there.

Deskjockey

Ok, bear with me on this...

I know Brick is a great ball winner in the forwards, and has been a tremendous servant over the years, but is there an argument to be made that the likes of another big unit like Devine would do as good a job up there and in contrast to Brick would be able to strike the ball as well as having the option of passing to someone with more space.

Looking at the match last weekend there was a particular play where Brick was in possession in a bit of space but just hadn't the confidence to go for his point 40 yards out and looked to pass to someone in a worse position than him. At times he seems as if his only play is to get the ball and then win the free. When it works it's great, and our free taker pops it over, but when you see him winning the ball and then immediately taking the ball into contact and going straight to ground, sometimes I wonder would we be better off having someone who can win the ball and who also poses a scoring threat.

Heresy I know, but I'd be interested in people's views

Deise2016

Deskjockey wrote: »

Ok, bear with me on this...

I know Brick is a great ball winner in the forwards, and has been a tremendous servant over the years, but is there an argument to be made that the likes of another big unit like Devine would do as good a job up there and in contrast to Brick would be able to strike the ball as well as having the option of passing to someone with more space.

Looking at the match last weekend there was a particular play where Brick was in possession in a bit of space but just hadn't the confidence to go for his point 40 yards out and looked to pass to someone in a worse position than him. At times he seems as if his only play is to get the ball and then win the free. When it works it's great, and our free taker pops it over, but when you see him winning the ball and then immediately taking the ball into contact and going straight to ground, sometimes I wonder would we be better off having someone who can win the ball and who also poses a scoring threat.

Heresy I know, but I'd be interested in people's views

Brick is a bit of a strange player really.

A fantastic servant to Waterford and a very very good player but as you've said he doesn't seem to actually be able to strike the ball.

Is he a scoring threat?

No

Is Jake Dillon a scoring threat at the moment?

No

Given the above there is certainly a case for Devine to start in place of either of those.

When Pauric Mahoney and Shanahan are fully fit as hopefully they will be come June 5th then Brick's position should come under threat.

At the moment we're probably playing with too many players who offer little scoring threat, combine that with our defensive tactics and we'll fall short come August.

blue note

I think you lads are misunderstanding how unique what brick brings is. He's not just a big lad (in fact I don't think he's even particularly big - 5.11 maybe?). But his ability to win ball is only rivalled by a couple of people in his generation. You suggest Devine can win ball like brick because he's big? I'd be a big fan of Devine but he wouldn't win as much as brick in the air or on the ground.

And the brick very rarely loses it too. Fair enough he doesn't shoot often, but he almost always finds someone to pass to.

I'm not sure where everyone would go and who would lose out if everyone was fit, but if I don't think you could drop brick and not feel the loss. It's possible you could make up for it in other ways - mahony offers something very different if fit, but bricks ball winning ability is a massive attribute.