Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

mountgomery burns

Wouldn't blame Davy for celebrating the win to be fair. It's the stuff that goes on during the match that I can't stand.

crottys lake

I don't blame Davy at all. After all, he self professed to being a victim of bullying and went to the press about it. I am sure he would not resort to any such tactics against Derek Magrath in the drawn game on the line re insults or indeed when there was blood pumping from Aussie when he was down injured on Sunday. I would only associate a bully doing something like that, surely??????????? Davy deserves our pity not anger and hope that none of us would make his life any more miserable and daunting then it is already. I never heard him shout abuse at anybody, least of all our players or management !!!!!!!!!!!!

decies

Am slightly less livid then when I was leaving Thurles last Sunday regarding our friend in Black , I even commentated at half time we will be against the breeze and 16 men . Anyway it's gone now while it's the players I feel most sorry for . At the end of the day at the top of the hurling tree we need to be playing 70 mins plus hurling,which is easier said then done , but that's what it will take to land the top prizes . We have a great bunch of skilful players on this team and I hope in the coming months / years their hard work and dedication are fully rewarded . Looking forward to our next meeting in Thurles after two close contests , just have the feeling that the Munster semi on law of averages won't be as close , hoping we come out as the victors this time . On a final note to add insult to injury , walking back to car after the game Sunday , a bird shat on my Waterford Hurling jersey !! Maybe that's a sign that our luck will change sooner than we think !!!

deiseach

Nice piece on SportsJoe.ie praising Derek's measured reaction to events and contrasting it with the likely response from Davy if his team had been on the receiving end of things. I know that winning is what matters in the end, but being a jackass is not a necessary condition for success, let alone a sufficient one (and before anyone engages in a spot of whataboutery, yes, Dan the Man has those tendencies as well).

DiscoStew

First things first; congrats to Clare. They had a disastrous start, got back in to it and then handed us another goal scoring chance which was taken with aplomb. They showed great fight to reel us in in fairness and kept going right until the end. Yes the free was undoubtedly wrong call but my did they take advantage of it.
The man in black.. I wasn't pleased with his performance in the first half. To say I was livid after the game would be an understatement but at the end of the day when we are 6 points up we should be seeing it out. Refs can get calls wrong I have no issue with that. The one thing that I thought was beyond belief was his carry on in the first half when he awarded us a free to Patrick Curran. Curran got treatment for a heel injury and while receiving this Kirwan starts blowing his whistle for him to get up and take the free. Curran continued with the treatment and Kirwan starts blowing and waving his arms frantically. Curran didn't take as long over the ball, understandably, and the free was sent wide. It was a difficult free anyway but I thought Kirwans carry on for that was scandalous. What bothered me more was that this couldn't be made out from the TV as Kirwan was in at the 21 and way out of camera shot.

Onto our own performance

Negatives:

Tony Kelly is a super hurler but we need to look at curtailing him for championship. Philip tried his best but pace was probably his worst enemy on Sunday and Kelly got away a number of times. I would expect Darragh Fives to take up this role come June.
Tadhg was very careless in his use of the ball. In the first half especially he gave away possession on 4 occasions, that's not good enough from the sweeper, although admittedly he was under pressure striking at times. I have every faith he will return to his high standard for June.
I was disappointed by the impact from our bench this time around. Devine, although he made some errors, was causing problems for the defence. Colin showed very little when he was introduced and looked like a player whose confidence was well below last years level.
I thought the substitution of Brick in particular was a strange one. He was our main outlet for puckouts, although Gleeson did provide an option he was having a serious battle with David FitzGerald. With Tommy Ryan coming on that completely removed that option and as a result we only had Aussie to hit in the half forward line.
In general I think Clare made better use of their puckouts. We seemed very reluctant to go short even when there was plenty of space for the backs to run into after taking the pass. We lumped much of it down the field and just tried to contest with them. Darragh Fives had acres of room on his wing at times but wasn't utilised by O'Keeffe. The one occasion that he did use Fives he soloed forward and pointed with ease. More variation may be required on the puckouts IMO.
Maurice had minimal if any impact when introduced. His impact from play in the drawn game was nil also, hopefully a game with Lismore might see his confidence return and a bit of form.

Positives:

Goals. Curran took his goal exceptionally well showing great drive to go for it and again to run at the heart of the defence and pop the pass to Dillon for his goal. While Clare will rue their defending I was encouraged by Currans drive for goals, especially the second one as he doesn't have blistering pace but still backed himself to run it in. He had an exceptional game and was a delight to watch all game.
Aussie played the majority of the game as a somewhat conventional wing forward. He had a titanic tussle with FitzGerald on the high balls. If he will feature there come championship it gives us both another ball winner and possibly another goal threat coming in from the wing.


On the next day, I hope that the hurt of this defeat will remain with the lads when they return to training after the club fixtures this weekend. It should provide them with a manic hungover to over turn this result the next day.

Last word on Davy FitzGearald (manager). His carry on when Austin lay stretched out on the sod should have seen him sent to the stand. There is no place for that type of carry on. When you contrast that to the care the Waterford management provided for Podge Collins last week when he pulled up with cramp it really is hard to fathom. To top it all the RTE Radio reported complimented Davy on his sideline behaviour and staying so calm throughout the match. Ludicrous!
Almost as ludicrous as not awarding Barron that free!

hurler on de ditch

DiscoStew wrote: »

First things first; congrats to Clare. They had a disastrous start, got back in to it and then handed us another goal scoring chance which was taken with aplomb. They showed great fight to reel us in in fairness and kept going right until the end. Yes the free was undoubtedly wrong call but my did they take advantage of it.
The man in black.. I wasn't pleased with his performance in the first half. To say I was livid after the game would be an understatement but at the end of the day when we are 6 points up we should be seeing it out. Refs can get calls wrong I have no issue with that. The one thing that I thought was beyond belief was his carry on in the first half when he awarded us a free to Patrick Curran. Curran got treatment for a heel injury and while receiving this Kirwan starts blowing his whistle for him to get up and take the free. Curran continued with the treatment and Kirwan starts blowing and waving his arms frantically. Curran didn't take as long over the ball, understandably, and the free was sent wide. It was a difficult free anyway but I thought Kirwans carry on for that was scandalous. What bothered me more was that this couldn't be made out from the TV as Kirwan was in at the 21 and way out of camera shot.

Onto our own performance

Negatives:

Tony Kelly is a super hurler but we need to look at curtailing him for championship. Philip tried his best but pace was probably his worst enemy on Sunday and Kelly got away a number of times. I would expect Darragh Fives to take up this role come June.
Tadhg was very careless in his use of the ball. In the first half especially he gave away possession on 4 occasions, that's not good enough from the sweeper, although admittedly he was under pressure striking at times. I have every faith he will return to his high standard for June.
I was disappointed by the impact from our bench this time around. Devine, although he made some errors, was causing problems for the defence. Colin showed very little when he was introduced and looked like a player whose confidence was well below last years level.
I thought the substitution of Brick in particular was a strange one. He was our main outlet for puckouts, although Gleeson did provide an option he was having a serious battle with David FitzGerald. With Tommy Ryan coming on that completely removed that option and as a result we only had Aussie to hit in the half forward line.
In general I think Clare made better use of their puckouts. We seemed very reluctant to go short even when there was plenty of space for the backs to run into after taking the pass. We lumped much of it down the field and just tried to contest with them. Darragh Fives had acres of room on his wing at times but wasn't utilised by O'Keeffe. The one occasion that he did use Fives he soloed forward and pointed with ease. More variation may be required on the puckouts IMO.
Maurice had minimal if any impact when introduced. His impact from play in the drawn game was nil also, hopefully a game with Lismore might see his confidence return and a bit of form.

Positives:

Goals. Curran took his goal exceptionally well showing great drive to go for it and again to run at the heart of the defence and pop the pass to Dillon for his goal. While Clare will rue their defending I was encouraged by Currans drive for goals, especially the second one as he doesn't have blistering pace but still backed himself to run it in. He had an exceptional game and was a delight to watch all game.
Aussie played the majority of the game as a somewhat conventional wing forward. He had a titanic tussle with FitzGerald on the high balls. If he will feature there come championship it gives us both another ball winner and possibly another goal threat coming in from the wing.


On the next day, I hope that the hurt of this defeat will remain with the lads when they return to training after the club fixtures this weekend. It should provide them with a manic hungover to over turn this result the next day.

Last word on Davy FitzGearald (manager). His carry on when Austin lay stretched out on the sod should have seen him sent to the stand. There is no place for that type of carry on. When you contrast that to the care the Waterford management provided for Podge Collins last week when he pulled up with cramp it really is hard to fathom. To top it all the RTE Radio reported complimented Davy on his sideline behaviour and staying so calm throughout the match. Ludicrous!
Almost as ludicrous as not awarding Barron that free!

Taigh showed a limited amount of skill on Sunday,constantly turning and running off to the left to get a strike and get the ball away,think he hit one ball of his right ,very limited and very poor ,if and its a big if ,if he was a KK player with that performance he would not have seen out the first half ,simple as ,he would have been substituted and they would work on his weakness during the week in training,it does not mean he has become a bad player over night ,but what it does do is point out why and what was wrong with his game ,and it would fine tune his mind for the next game and he most definitely would not repeat the same,plus he was a spare man,so no excuse really

spaceCreated

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

Taigh showed a limited amount of skill on Sunday,constantly turning and running off to the left to get a strike and get the ball away,think he hit one ball of his right ,very limited and very poor ,if and its a big if ,if he was a KK player with that performance he would not have seen out the first half ,simple as ,he would have been substituted and they would work on his weakness during the week in training,it does not mean he has become a bad player over night ,but what it does do is point out why and what was wrong with his game ,and it would fine tune his mind for the next game and he most definitely would not repeat the same,plus he was a spare man,so no excuse really

Luckily 3 poorly placed balls won't define his entire career. He's been excellent last year and this, anyone can have abad 10 minutes get over yourself. Ridiculous comments btw, plenty of KK hurlers have poor performances and stay on the pitch.

tomwaterford

spaceCreated wrote: »

Luckily 3 poorly placed balls won't define his entire career. He's been excellent last year and this, anyone can have abad 10 minutes get over yourself. Ridiculous comments btw, plenty of KK hurlers have poor performances and stay on the pitch.

They won't define his career....but 3 misplaced balls in a match between two evenly matched teams....can be difference between winning and losing


If waterford cut out unforced errors and poor passes and descision making there's no reason they can't beat Clare in June 5th....after that sky's the limit

robopaddy2

deiseach wrote: »

Nice piece on SportsJoe.ie praising Derek's measured reaction to events and contrasting it with the likely response from Davy if his team had been on the receiving end of things. I know that winning is what matters in the end, but being a jackass is not a necessary condition for success, let alone a sufficient one (and before anyone engages in a spot of whataboutery, yes, Dan the Man has those tendencies as well).

Derek showed his class unfortunately not John Mullane who has since called on Kirwan to retire on his article on the indo on Monday. Also his comments on radio 1 on Sunday that he hopes kirwan is feeling the guilt driving home on Sunday. Totally ott in my opinion, a disgraceful public attack on a fellow amateur who has to go back to a wife and kids and then get up for work Monday morning. Mullane should apologise for his remarks and do with remembering he made mistakes in life himself. Did people publicly ask him to retire after he got himself sent off in Munster final in 04? Or after he decapiated an opponent in a challenge game in Mullinavat? I was a big fan of Mullane as a player and always used to say he owes waterford nothing but since he has become a journalist he has become an embarrassment. I really don't know how he continues to be hired in media as he is just awful number one and secondly can't keep his emotions in check with throwaway heat of the moment comments

decies

Mullane has nothing to apologise for . Kirwan deserved everything coming to him.

Joe_ Public

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Derek showed his class unfortunately not John Mullane who has since called on Kirwan to retire on his article on the indo on Monday. Also his comments on radio 1 on Sunday that he hopes kirwan is feeling the guilt driving home on Sunday. Totally ott in my opinion, a disgraceful public attack on a fellow amateur who has to go back to a wife and kids and then get up for work Monday morning. Mullane should apologise for his remarks and do with remembering he made mistakes in life himself. Did people publicly ask him to retire after he got himself sent off in Munster final in 04? Or after he decapiated an opponent in a challenge game in Mullinavat? I was a big fan of Mullane as a player and always used to say he owes waterford nothing but since he has become a journalist he has become an embarrassment. I really don't know how he continues to be hired in media as he is just awful number one and secondly can't keep his emotions in check with throwaway heat of the moment comments

I agree with you. But I think it's exactly what his editors want. It's the Skyification of the Irish media, like Alan Quinlan's Munster rant a few months back, there may be some truth in what they are saying, but it's all from the gut, emotional outpouring rather than incisive, sober analysis. Not saying pundits should be barred from commenting on their own counties, that would be silly, but they should at least try to park their obvious biases and be considered in what they say.

Derek is probably clever enough to realise that having ex-players fly off the handle every now and again probably won't do any harm, while he himself can maintain a respectful and dignified silence. I doubt Cody is ever too bothered when the likes of Eddie O'Connor go off on one in the press.

robopaddy2

Taigh is under the microscope a lot more this year with other sides trying to counteract the sweeper system. Yes he is a free man but both games against Clare he was closed down very quickly anytime he was on the ball. Eventually this leads to pressure and errors being forced. It's not his fault. It's up to management to ensure he gets enough support and protection in the role he is being asked to do. Would Cody have taken him off after a poor 10 minutes? Nonsense. Everyone is entitled to a fair chance and tadgh has certainly earned that right after his performances over the past 18 months.

JesusRef

Tadhg is only back from injury, D fives has been in sweeper for some of the games he was back in for so give the guy a break, in will improve a lot in a month and even improved as the game went on.

Cody doesn't punish guys for mistakes, he punishes them for hiding when things are going wrong something TdB never does...

Mullane was an embarrassment - in sharp contrast to paddy Curran who when interviewed on his way off the pitch showed he has as much class off the pitch as on it - serious head on him

PTH2009

Who will mark Tony Kelly on June 5th ???. Philip Mahony didn't do too well on him

Tdb will not make mistakes like that again hopefully and I can't to see curran and Shane Bennett play in hot summer conditions

crottys lake

I have to congratulate John Mullane on speaking the truth and not being afraid to stand up. We, in Waterford are not known as the 'Gentle County' for nothing and to have one of our finest hurlers of all time to stand up for us is nothing more then I would expect from the great man. Kirwan made atrocious decisions and most were plainly wrong and against Waterford. He was taken off the refereeing panel not so long ago and how he got a game of this magnitude is beyond belief. Thanks be to God for the likes of John Mullane.

Alpha Centauri

That old adage "everyone makes mistakes that's why we have rubbers on top of pencils" springs to mind (goes for players and ref). Even though i was livid after the match, its a game, and it was a great game , we move onward and upwards, we're not feeling it half as much as the players.

The comments i heard in the stand like "they didn't want to win it" or "they left it behind them, we had a 6 point lead" drive me insane, Clare were a class team on the day too, they showed their skill to stay in touch with us... the lads didn't hand it to em.

These lads had to go home to bury family or study for exams they're currently sitting. I have the utmost respect for them, to see them after matches battered, bleeding and shaking with exhaustion, signing jerseys and posing for photographs with kids (and adults) is outstanding. I have nothing but admiration for the team and their management (Derek gave up a USA holiday with his family this week) who managed to keep a cool head about the referee whilst we all lost it.

I have a feeling we're in for a long summer with these lads......

deisechap09

PTH2009 wrote: »

Who will mark Tony Kelly on June 5th ???. Philip Mahony didn't do too well on him

Tdb will not make mistakes like that again hopefully and I can't to see curran and Shane Bennett play in hot summer conditions

I think Kelly is just one of those players who can be near impossible to stop. Not sure who in the country could have stopped him the weekend. His first 2 points came running from deep, and his last 2 scores came from either sideline. There's not a whole lot Mahony or any other back can do about that. We should have defended the goal better but that was a once-off as we usually have a covering defender.

Its more about finding a way to limit the space he gets rather than man-marking, not a lot anyone can do when hes in that kind of form though.

Giveitfong

When I heard that Diarmuid Kirwan had been appointed to referee the replay between Waterford and Clare I let out a groan. I have never been impressed by his refereeing and there have been occasions when I was more depressed than impressed by his performances. The worst of these occasions was the Munster Under 21 game between Waterford and Tipperary in Thurles in June 2011. That was the most appalling display of one-sided refereeing that I ever had the misfortune to observe and, as with last Sunday, Waterford were the unfortunate victims.

A specific analysis of Kirwan’s performance in that game was written by An Moltóir, who used to write a column for the An Fear Rua GAA website but who at that time had his own blog. This is no longer accessible, but I downloaded his report at the time, and am quoting from it here. An Moltóir identified 14 incidents where we felt the referee should have given a free but didn’t, or should not have given a free but did. Of these, 13 worked in Tipperary’s favour and only one favoured Waterford.

Three of these decisions were particularly damaging for Waterford. An Moltóir reckoned that Brian O’Meara took a dive which gave Tipperary a converted penalty; that Darragh Fives was fouled (his hurley was held) in the lead up to Tipperary’s second goal; and that Maurice Shanahan was clearly fouled as he challenged for a ball into the Tipperary goal area late in the game when Waterford were seeking an equalising goal. A last-minute goal gave Tipperary a five point win in the end.

As suggested by Rasputin11 here, many people felt that Kirwan was trying to make up for several key decisions which he made in the 2009 All-Ireland final between Tipperary and Kilkenny which probably denied Tipperary what would have been a deserved victory. Again, An Moltóir devoted some attention to this in his analysis of the game which is accessible at http://www.anfearrua.com/viewdoc.aspx?id=2964

An Moltóir counted 15 incidents where Kirwan should have awarded a free and didn’t, or shouldn’t have awarded a free and did. Of these errors, four favoured Tipperary and eleven favoured Kilkenny. These included Kirwan’s awarding of a converted penalty to Kilkenny in the 62nd minte when Richie Power took nine steps before being fouled in the large square, and allowing a further Kilkenny goal two minutes later when he either didn’t see, or failed to penalise, a blatant push by Power which took Paul Curran out of the play in the lead-up to the goal. There was also a full frontal tackle by Jackie Tyrrell early in the game which laid Seamus Callanan out for several minutes. Not only did Tyrrell not get a deserved yellow card, Kirwan didn’t even give a free!

Kirwan was at it again last Sunday. I have just watched a recording of the game and noted the following 13 incidents where Waterford were penalised by refereeing errors. I have included the time of the incident in case anyone wants to check.

22.36: Jamie Barron has jersey tugged by Colm Galvin – no free (Kirwan gave a number of frees for jersey-tugging during the game).

29.14: Kevin Moran tripped deliberately by Darach Honan – no free.

34.18: Shane Bennett has his jersey tugged twice as he runs at the Clare defence – no free.

35.36: Shane Bennett tripped by Jack Browne – no free.

48.20: Shane Bennett penalised for tripping Pat O’Connor when it is not clear that any contact was made.

54.46: Jake Dillon clearly pushed in the back by David Reidy – no free (this was probably the most obvious error Kirwan made during the game).

60.57: Jack Browne strikes Shane Bennett on face guard with his hand before catching ball landing between them – no free.

66.43: Conor McGrath takes 13 steps with ball in hand and is then given a free for no apparent foul.

68.23: Brick Walsh pushed off the ball by Brendan Bugler – no free.

68.55: Shane Fives held back by hand on shoulder by Aaron Shanagher – no free.

69.05: Aaron Shanagher pushes Noel Connors in the back as he tries to lift the ball in the ensuing ruck – no free.

71.39: Jamie Barron clearly has his jersey tugged by Cian Dillon – no free.

71.48: Tony Kelly is awarded a free even though there is no evidence that either of the Waterford players nearest to him made any contact with him. Falling to the ground in such situations has always been a way of getting a handy free, but you might expect an experienced referee deemed suitable to referee a national final to be wise to such devices.

Speaking of which, Kirwan was removed from the panel of referees for senior intercounty games in 2014. You would have to ask how he came to be appointed to referee the National Hurling League Final two years later – last Sunday he showed – again - that he should not be allowed to operate at this level.

DiscoStew

robopaddy2 wrote: »

a disgraceful public attack on a fellow amateur who has to go back to a wife and kids and then get up for work Monday morning.

Does Kirwan not receive payment for refereeing matches like all other referees? Or has amateur been redefined?

Fred C Dobbs

PTH2009 wrote: »

Who will mark Tony Kelly on June 5th ???. Philip Mahony didn't do too well on him

Tdb will not make mistakes like that again hopefully and I can't to see curran and Shane Bennett play in hot summer conditions

Jamie Barron might be your man ; nippy, skilful, right physique for this assignment.

Wolfhillbilly

Giveitfong wrote: »

When I heard that Diarmuid Kirwan had been appointed to referee the replay between Waterford and Clare I let out a groan. I have never been impressed by his refereeing and there have been occasions when I was more depressed than impressed by his performances. The worst of these occasions was the Munster Under 21 game between Waterford and Tipperary in Thurles in June 2011. That was the most appalling display of one-sided refereeing that I ever had the misfortune to observe and, as with last Sunday, Waterford were the unfortunate victims.

A specific analysis of Kirwan’s performance in that game was written by An Moltóir, who used to write a column for the An Fear Rua GAA website but who at that time had his own blog. This is no longer accessible, but I downloaded his report at the time, and am quoting from it here. An Moltóir identified 14 incidents where we felt the referee should have given a free but didn’t, or should not have given a free but did. Of these, 13 worked in Tipperary’s favour and only one favoured Waterford.

Three of these decisions were particularly damaging for Waterford. An Moltóir reckoned that Brian O’Meara took a dive which gave Tipperary a converted penalty; that Darragh Fives was fouled (his hurley was held) in the lead up to Tipperary’s second goal; and that Maurice Shanahan was clearly fouled as he challenged for a ball into the Tipperary goal area late in the game when Waterford were seeking an equalising goal. A last-minute goal gave Tipperary a five point win in the end.

As suggested by Rasputin11 here, many people felt that Kirwan was trying to make up for several key decisions which he made in the 2009 All-Ireland final between Tipperary and Kilkenny which probably denied Tipperary what would have been a deserved victory. Again, An Moltóir devoted some attention to this in his analysis of the game which is accessible at http://www.anfearrua.com/viewdoc.aspx?id=2964

An Moltóir counted 15 incidents where Kirwan should have awarded a free and didn’t, or shouldn’t have awarded a free and did. Of these errors, four favoured Tipperary and eleven favoured Kilkenny. These included Kirwan’s awarding of a converted penalty to Kilkenny in the 62nd minte when Richie Power took nine steps before being fouled in the large square, and allowing a further Kilkenny goal two minutes later when he either didn’t see, or failed to penalise, a blatant push by Power which took Paul Curran out of the play in the lead-up to the goal. There was also a full frontal tackle by Jackie Tyrrell early in the game which laid Seamus Callanan out for several minutes. Not only did Tyrrell not get a deserved yellow card, Kirwan didn’t even give a free!

Kirwan was at it again last Sunday. I have just watched a recording of the game and noted the following 13 incidents where Waterford were penalised by refereeing errors. I have included the time of the incident in case anyone wants to check.

22.36: Jamie Barron has jersey tugged by Colm Galvin – no free (Kirwan gave a number of frees for jersey-tugging during the game).

29.14: Kevin Moran tripped deliberately by Darach Honan – no free.

34.18: Shane Bennett has his jersey tugged twice as he runs at the Clare defence – no free.

35.36: Shane Bennett tripped by Jack Browne – no free.

48.20: Shane Bennett penalised for tripping Pat O’Connor when it is not clear that any contact was made.

54.46: Jake Dillon clearly pushed in the back by David Reidy – no free (this was probably the most obvious error Kirwan made during the game).

60.57: Jack Browne strikes Shane Bennett on face guard with his hand before catching ball landing between them – no free.

66.43: Conor McGrath takes 13 steps with ball in hand and is then given a free for no apparent foul.

68.23: Brick Walsh pushed off the ball by Brendan Bugler – no free.

68.55: Shane Fives held back by hand on shoulder by Aaron Shanagher – no free.

69.05: Aaron Shanagher pushes Noel Connors in the back as he tries to lift the ball in the ensuing ruck – no free.

71.39: Jamie Barron clearly has his jersey tugged by Cian Dillon – no free.

71.48: Tony Kelly is awarded a free even though there is no evidence that either of the Waterford players nearest to him made any contact with him. Falling to the ground in such situations has always been a way of getting a handy free, but you might expect an experienced referee deemed suitable to referee a national final to be wise to such devices.

Speaking of which, Kirwan was removed from the panel of referees for senior intercounty games in 2014. You would have to ask how he came to be appointed to referee the National Hurling League Final two years later – last Sunday he showed – again - that he should not be allowed to operate at this level.

You forgot about 01.00: Patrick Curran took eight steps before striking to the net.

3ships

Wolfhillbilly wrote: »

You forgot about 01.00: Patrick Curran took eight steps before striking to the net.

I counted 3

hurler on de ditch

spaceCreated wrote: »

Luckily 3 poorly placed balls won't define his entire career. He's been excellent last year and this, anyone can have abad 10 minutes get over yourself. Ridiculous comments btw, plenty of KK hurlers have poor performances and stay on the pitch.

well i knew that would be the response from somebody ,he was having a bad day ,take him off end of,ive seen plenty of KK stars subbed after 20 mins ,if your not playing well out you go ,the very fact that you said "He's been excellent last year and this"says it all ,,he was great last year so dont take him off even though he is playing bad,sure he was great last year,imagine he was great last year ,sure that will do ,

hurler on de ditch

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Taigh is under the microscope a lot more this year with other sides trying to counteract the sweeper system. Yes he is a free man but both games against Clare he was closed down very quickly anytime he was on the ball. Eventually this leads to pressure and errors being forced. It's not his fault. It's up to management to ensure he gets enough support and protection in the role he is being asked to do. Would Cody have taken him off after a poor 10 minutes? Nonsense. Everyone is entitled to a fair chance and tadgh has certainly earned that right after his performances over the past 18 months.

the main reason for him being closed down was ,as i said earlier he kept hitting of his left ,even lads at under 12 would have that copped ,too predictable

conditioned games

Thank f**k John Mullane spoke up about the farce at the end of the game. Too many wannabe nice guys around trying to get offended by people speaking the truth. It's not the first time Diarmuid Kirwan has made a complete balls of referring and it wont be the last. If he can't do his job then he should be replaced. Both the supporters and players deserve better.

hurler on de ditch

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Taigh is under the microscope a lot more this year with other sides trying to counteract the sweeper system. Yes he is a free man but both games against Clare he was closed down very quickly anytime he was on the ball. Eventually this leads to pressure and errors being forced. It's not his fault. It's up to management to ensure he gets enough support and protection in the role he is being asked to do. Would Cody have taken him off after a poor 10 minutes? Nonsense. Everyone is entitled to a fair chance and tadgh has certainly earned that right after his performances over the past 18 months.

and that my friend is the reason why we have two all Irelands, The reason he was closed down is because he is a one sided hurler ,in your own words "It's not his fault. It's up to management to ensure he gets enough support and protection"this has to be the worst thing ive read,its almost comical.

Giveitfong

Wolfhillbilly wrote: »

You forgot about 01.00: Patrick Curran took eight steps before striking to the net.

Did you look at the video? He hopped the ball on his hurley halfway through his eight steps. Perfectly legitimate goal.

Kirwan did make a couple of errors which favoured Waterford, but they were greatly ouweighed by errors in the opposite direction.

O Riain

Giveitfong wrote: »

Wolfhillbilly wrote: »

You forgot about 01.00: Patrick Curran took eight steps before striking to the net.

Did you look at the video? He hopped the ball on his hurley halfway through his eight steps. Perfectly legitimate goal.

Kirwan did make a couple of errors which favoured Waterford, but they were greatly ouweighed by errors in the opposite direction.

Had a look there and he took about 5/6 steps when you count the ball going into the hand and leaving it. You could call a foul for that but then if you did then 90% of the goals in hurling wouldn't stand.

Not sure if you'd be up for it but would you be able to do a run through and see the amount of times Clare deserved a free? If we can see that if there is a big difference then we can feel justified in our grievances.

Also, I think a few of those fouls you listed, while technically fouls, would have been soft enough and if the ref was calling for them then people would be going mental saying he didn't let the game flow. As I said, it all comes down to how many of these type of fouls were called/not called for Clare.

Also, it's hard to tell from the video but was Aussie being held in the build up to the winning point? Looks like he was being fairly inhibited while contesting for the last point? Maybe somebody near to the sideline could tell us?

PTH2009

Rip to Trevor Crotty a member of Dungarvan Gaa who passed away yesterday in a car accident

Prayers go too his family, friends, team mates

hurler on de ditch

O Riain wrote: »

Had a look there and he took about 5/6 steps when you count the ball going into the hand and leaving it. You could call a foul for that but then if you did then 90% of the goals in hurling wouldn't stand.

Not sure if you'd be up for it but would you be able to do a run through and see the amount of times Clare deserved a free? If we can see that if there is a big difference then we can feel justified in our grievances.

Also, I think a few of those fouls you listed, while technically fouls, would have been soft enough and if the ref was calling for them then people would be going mental saying he didn't let the game flow. As I said, it all comes down to how many of these type of fouls were called/not called for Clare.

Also, it's hard to tell from the video but was Aussie being held in the build up to the winning point? Looks like he was being fairly inhibited while contesting for the last point? Maybe somebody near to the sideline could tell us?

its time now to get over the auld was or wasn't it a free,if Waterford came from 6 points down TWICE to win the game we would be talking about it for years ,credit to the winners Clare were fantastic,some game, pity we came out on the wrong side ,

hurler on de ditch

DiscoStew wrote: »

First things first; congrats to Clare. They had a disastrous start, got back in to it and then handed us another goal scoring chance which was taken with aplomb. They showed great fight to reel us in in fairness and kept going right until the end. Yes the free was undoubtedly wrong call but my did they take advantage of it.
The man in black.. I wasn't pleased with his performance in the first half. To say I was livid after the game would be an understatement but at the end of the day when we are 6 points up we should be seeing it out. Refs can get calls wrong I have no issue with that. The one thing that I thought was beyond belief was his carry on in the first half when he awarded us a free to Patrick Curran. Curran got treatment for a heel injury and while receiving this Kirwan starts blowing his whistle for him to get up and take the free. Curran continued with the treatment and Kirwan starts blowing and waving his arms frantically. Curran didn't take as long over the ball, understandably, and the free was sent wide. It was a difficult free anyway but I thought Kirwans carry on for that was scandalous. What bothered me more was that this couldn't be made out from the TV as Kirwan was in at the 21 and way out of camera shot.

Onto our own performance

Negatives:

Tony Kelly is a super hurler but we need to look at curtailing him for championship. Philip tried his best but pace was probably his worst enemy on Sunday and Kelly got away a number of times. I would expect Darragh Fives to take up this role come June.
Tadhg was very careless in his use of the ball. In the first half especially he gave away possession on 4 occasions, that's not good enough from the sweeper, although admittedly he was under pressure striking at times. I have every faith he will return to his high standard for June.
I was disappointed by the impact from our bench this time around. Devine, although he made some errors, was causing problems for the defence. Colin showed very little when he was introduced and looked like a player whose confidence was well below last years level.
I thought the substitution of Brick in particular was a strange one. He was our main outlet for puckouts, although Gleeson did provide an option he was having a serious battle with David FitzGerald. With Tommy Ryan coming on that completely removed that option and as a result we only had Aussie to hit in the half forward line.
In general I think Clare made better use of their puckouts. We seemed very reluctant to go short even when there was plenty of space for the backs to run into after taking the pass. We lumped much of it down the field and just tried to contest with them. Darragh Fives had acres of room on his wing at times but wasn't utilised by O'Keeffe. The one occasion that he did use Fives he soloed forward and pointed with ease. More variation may be required on the puckouts IMO.
Maurice had minimal if any impact when introduced. His impact from play in the drawn game was nil also, hopefully a game with Lismore might see his confidence return and a bit of form.

Positives:

Goals. Curran took his goal exceptionally well showing great drive to go for it and again to run at the heart of the defence and pop the pass to Dillon for his goal. While Clare will rue their defending I was encouraged by Currans drive for goals, especially the second one as he doesn't have blistering pace but still backed himself to run it in. He had an exceptional game and was a delight to watch all game.
Aussie played the majority of the game as a somewhat conventional wing forward. He had a titanic tussle with FitzGerald on the high balls. If he will feature there come championship it gives us both another ball winner and possibly another goal threat coming in from the wing.


On the next day, I hope that the hurt of this defeat will remain with the lads when they return to training after the club fixtures this weekend. It should provide them with a manic hungover to over turn this result the next day.

Last word on Davy FitzGearald (manager). His carry on when Austin lay stretched out on the sod should have seen him sent to the stand. There is no place for that type of carry on. When you contrast that to the care the Waterford management provided for Podge Collins last week when he pulled up with cramp it really is hard to fathom. To top it all the RTE Radio reported complimented Davy on his sideline behaviour and staying so calm throughout the match. Ludicrous!
Almost as ludicrous as not awarding Barron that free!

as Mc Grath himself said ,everybody made mistakes ,The Ref,the Players ,the Management ,

robopaddy2

![/QUOTE]as Mc Grath himself said ,everybody made mistakes ,The Ref,the Players ,the Management ,[/quote]

Apart from De burca.... shur hes just plain useless.

Topcat32

Giveitfong wrote: »

When I heard that Diarmuid Kirwan had been appointed to referee the replay between Waterford and Clare I let out a groan. I have never been impressed by his refereeing and there have been occasions when I was more depressed than impressed by his performances. The worst of these occasions was the Munster Under 21 game between Waterford and Tipperary in Thurles in June 2011. That was the most appalling display of one-sided refereeing that I ever had the misfortune to observe and, as with last Sunday, Waterford were the unfortunate victims.

A specific analysis of Kirwan’s performance in that game was written by An Moltóir, who used to write a column for the An Fear Rua GAA website but who at that time had his own blog. This is no longer accessible, but I downloaded his report at the time, and am quoting from it here. An Moltóir identified 14 incidents where we felt the referee should have given a free but didn’t, or should not have given a free but did. Of these, 13 worked in Tipperary’s favour and only one favoured Waterford.

Three of these decisions were particularly damaging for Waterford. An Moltóir reckoned that Brian O’Meara took a dive which gave Tipperary a converted penalty; that Darragh Fives was fouled (his hurley was held) in the lead up to Tipperary’s second goal; and that Maurice Shanahan was clearly fouled as he challenged for a ball into the Tipperary goal area late in the game when Waterford were seeking an equalising goal. A last-minute goal gave Tipperary a five point win in the end.

As suggested by Rasputin11 here, many people felt that Kirwan was trying to make up for several key decisions which he made in the 2009 All-Ireland final between Tipperary and Kilkenny which probably denied Tipperary what would have been a deserved victory. Again, An Moltóir devoted some attention to this in his analysis of the game which is accessible at http://www.anfearrua.com/viewdoc.aspx?id=2964

An Moltóir counted 15 incidents where Kirwan should have awarded a free and didn’t, or shouldn’t have awarded a free and did. Of these errors, four favoured Tipperary and eleven favoured Kilkenny. These included Kirwan’s awarding of a converted penalty to Kilkenny in the 62nd minte when Richie Power took nine steps before being fouled in the large square, and allowing a further Kilkenny goal two minutes later when he either didn’t see, or failed to penalise, a blatant push by Power which took Paul Curran out of the play in the lead-up to the goal. There was also a full frontal tackle by Jackie Tyrrell early in the game which laid Seamus Callanan out for several minutes. Not only did Tyrrell not get a deserved yellow card, Kirwan didn’t even give a free!

Kirwan was at it again last Sunday. I have just watched a recording of the game and noted the following 13 incidents where Waterford were penalised by refereeing errors. I have included the time of the incident in case anyone wants to check.

22.36: Jamie Barron has jersey tugged by Colm Galvin – no free (Kirwan gave a number of frees for jersey-tugging during the game).

29.14: Kevin Moran tripped deliberately by Darach Honan – no free.

34.18: Shane Bennett has his jersey tugged twice as he runs at the Clare defence – no free.

35.36: Shane Bennett tripped by Jack Browne – no free.

48.20: Shane Bennett penalised for tripping Pat O’Connor when it is not clear that any contact was made.

54.46: Jake Dillon clearly pushed in the back by David Reidy – no free (this was probably the most obvious error Kirwan made during the game).

60.57: Jack Browne strikes Shane Bennett on face guard with his hand before catching ball landing between them – no free.

66.43: Conor McGrath takes 13 steps with ball in hand and is then given a free for no apparent foul.

68.23: Brick Walsh pushed off the ball by Brendan Bugler – no free.

68.55: Shane Fives held back by hand on shoulder by Aaron Shanagher – no free.

69.05: Aaron Shanagher pushes Noel Connors in the back as he tries to lift the ball in the ensuing ruck – no free.

71.39: Jamie Barron clearly has his jersey tugged by Cian Dillon – no free.

71.48: Tony Kelly is awarded a free even though there is no evidence that either of the Waterford players nearest to him made any contact with him. Falling to the ground in such situations has always been a way of getting a handy free, but you might expect an experienced referee deemed suitable to referee a national final to be wise to such devices.

Speaking of which, Kirwan was removed from the panel of referees for senior intercounty games in 2014. You would have to ask how he came to be appointed to referee the National Hurling League Final two years later – last Sunday he showed – again - that he should not be allowed to operate at this level.

I suppose "An Moltoir" is heading up Opta these days now that An Fear Rua is defunct, the statistics in his "column" and your post are so admirably unbiased.

KevIRL

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

its time now to get over the auld was or wasn't it a free,if Waterford came from 6 points down TWICE to win the game we would be talking about it for years ,credit to the winners Clare were fantastic,some game, pity we came out on the wrong side ,

Its rare I'd agree with you Mr on the ditch, but in 100% agreement here.

Giveitfong

O Riain wrote: »

Not sure if you'd be up for it but would you be able to do a run through and see the amount of times Clare deserved a free? If we can see that if there is a big difference then we can feel justified in our grievances.

Also, I think a few of those fouls you listed, while technically fouls, would have been soft enough and if the ref was calling for them then people would be going mental saying he didn't let the game flow. As I said, it all comes down to how many of these type of fouls were called/not called for Clare.

Also, it's hard to tell from the video but was Aussie being held in the build up to the winning point? Looks like he was being fairly inhibited while contesting for the last point? Maybe somebody near to the sideline could tell us?

As I said, I only noticed a couple of cases where the referee erred in favour of Waterford but I'm sure if a Clare supporter was looking for them they would come up with more. The main point is that the high number of errors Kirwan made which went against Waterford indicates a level of incompetence which shouldn't be seen at this level. I gave the exact time of the incidents so anyone who wishes to challenge my judgement may readily do so.

Most of the incidents identified involved fouls (e.g. jersey-tugging) which were penalised by Kirwan on other occasions during the game. It's not a question of letting the game flow, it's a question of being consistent and even-handed.

I identified five additional incidents where I thought Kirwan might have made an error but I could not be sure from what I could see on-screen. One of these is the incident right at the end mentioned by O Riain where David Fitzgerald appeared to place his hand on Austin Gleeson's shoulder before fielding the ball over his head. However, the play was on the far side of the field from the camera and too unclear to make a definite judgement about it.

JesusRef

Topcat32 wrote: »

I suppose "An Moltoir" is heading up Opta these days now that An Fear Rua is defunct, the statistics in his "column" and your post are so admirably unbiased.

In fairness an moltoirs reports were unbiased as they were based around breaking down what happened in the game from a play by play point of view, they were very detailed with each play assigned a scoring system and players ranked on their significant plays,
They were actually very impressive and it's a pity he didn't keep it up but they were time consuming I suppose,

DiscoStew

Don't know if this was mentioned here since Sunday, but what a win from the ladies footballers in Thurles! Serious bottle shown from Delahunty to slot over that free at the death. Think they are up against Cork in Munster championship this weekend, will be an altogether different challenge but hopefully they can give a good account of themselves.

hurler on de ditch

robopaddy2 wrote: »

!

as Mc Grath himself said ,everybody made mistakes ,The Ref,the Players ,the Management ,[/quote]

Apart from De burca.... shur hes just plain useless.[/QUOTE]Mc Grath's mistake was he did not take him off,you still don't get it do you !,i never said he was useless ,i was stating that he was playing particularly bad ,had cost his team a few points ,and had not learned from previous mistakes ,how long should a manager look at someone playing badly and costing his team scores ,before he takes action ,or should he wait until half time maybe look at a dvd from last year ,and say ah shur De Burca was great last year ,leave him on,

waterford28

Off topic here lads, looking forward to the weekends club games here in Waterford, was just browsing through the fixtures (not on waterfordgaa.ie because that still doesn't work) and something caught my eye.

Does anyone else think it's wrong for a local referee to take over the training of a team (hurling&afootball) and still take matches of other clubs who may be in a higher grade than the club he's training in hurling but are in the same grade as the club he's training in football or vice versa. I'm sure a lot of people will know the person in question.

I just feel it's wrong on all levels as u can't both train a team and referee championship games (obviously he won't be allowed referee games for the championship the club he's training are in) in the same county in the same year? Especially when there's a crossover with some clubs been senior hurling, intr football or junior hurling intr football ect ect? Like the standard of refereeing in this county isn't great as it is.

Personally I think you can do one or the other not both

DiscoStew

Tadhg didn't have a great game Sunday but to call him one sided is beyond belief. He is a very natural striker of the ball off both sides. His use of his left on Sunday was more down to Clare forcing him out towards the left sideline where it was just natural instinct to then use his left side.

liogairmhordain

Giveitfong wrote: »

David Fitzgerald appeared to place his hand on Austin Gleeson's shoulder before fielding the ball over his head. However, the play was on the far side of the field from the camera and too unclear to make a definite judgement about it.

My instinct at the time from a fair distance away was that it was a foul. When I watched the highlights later on I noticed (1) that gleeson appealed for a free (2) as the play went on gleeson could be seen adjusting his helmet / fixing it back into place.
Having said that you'd never expect a free to be given for something so non-clearcut with the sides level and only seconds remaining. If it was a foul I'd be inclined to praise fitzgerald for his cuteness in such high-pressure circumstances. Philip mahony would have been well advised to foul tony kelly seconds later if only he could've got close enough to him....

Alf Tupper

DiscoStew wrote: »

Tadhg didn't have a great game Sunday but to call him one sided is beyond belief. He is a very natural striker of the ball off both sides. His use of his left on Sunday was more down to Clare forcing him out towards the left sideline where it was just natural instinct to then use his left side.

There's no arguing about Tadhg's ability and he can definitely strike off both sides but he does favour his left so it's an automatic reaction to turn to that side when he get's possession.

Tony Kelly also favours his left but not to the same extent as Tadhg does and he can strike accurately on the run from both sides but if he has enough space and time he will strike off his left.

PTH2009

I'd love tbd too have a stormer in June and Austin to score the winning point

What's Davy have against him ?

Anywhere to find a list of senior club managers for this year ?. Is Walsh still manager of ballygunner, is Tony Browne manager of Lismore ?

liogairmhordain

PTH2009 wrote: »

I'd love tbd too have a stormer in June and Austin to score the winning point

What's Davy have against him ?

Anywhere to find a list of senior club managers for this year ?. Is Walsh still manager of ballygunner, is Tony Browne manager of Lismore ?

Lismore = intermediate

decies

Anybody gone to see Waterford playing in that Celtic challenge thing ? Know they got hammered against Kilkenny and not doing much against Carlow as we speak . Are they very young inexperienced players we are putting out or what ? They are playing tipp in golden ( not far from me ) next week thinking of going !!

robopaddy2

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

robopaddy2 wrote: »

!

as Mc Grath himself said ,everybody made mistakes ,The Ref,the Players ,the Management ,

Apart from De burca.... shur hes just plain useless.[/QUOTE]Mc Grath's mistake was he did not take him off,you still don't get it do you !,i never said he was useless ,i was stating that he was playing particularly bad ,had cost his team a few points ,and had not learned from previous mistakes ,how long should a manager look at someone playing badly and costing his team scores ,before he takes action ,or should he wait until half time maybe look at a dvd from last year ,and say ah shur De Burca was great last year ,leave him on,[/quote]

Yes I get it, the laziest argument in the book... Cody would've taken him off. Sorry but that's bull****, as was summed up perfectly before, Cody doesn't haul lads off for making a mistake. he drops lads that are not standing up and being counted. This Cody would've taken him off nonsense is a myth and if you want to believe it then off you go. Maybe a few years ago when they had the greatest panel of all time Cody was ruthless but not now. Tdb had a fine game overall inspite of his shaky patch and if we were to haul off every lad that made a mistake just because we want to follow the so called Cody model then we'd be left with our intermediate team on the pitch

robopaddy2

robopaddy2 wrote: »

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

robopaddy2 wrote: »

!

as Mc Grath himself said ,everybody made mistakes ,The Ref,the Players ,the Management ,

Apart from De burca.... shur hes just plain useless.

Mc Grath's mistake was he did not take him off,you still don't get it do you !,i never said he was useless ,i was stating that he was playing particularly bad ,had cost his team a few points ,and had not learned from previous mistakes ,how long should a manager look at someone playing badly and costing his team scores ,before he takes action ,or should he wait until half time maybe look at a dvd from last year ,and say ah shur De Burca was great last year ,leave him on,[/quote]

Yes I get it, the laziest argument in the book... Cody would've taken him off. Sorry but that's bull****, as was summed up perfectly before, Cody doesn't haul lads off for making a mistake. he drops lads that are not standing up and being counted. This Cody would've taken him off nonsense is a myth and if you want to believe it then off you go. Maybe a few years ago when they had the greatest panel of all time Cody was renowned for being ruthless but when was the last time an established player was hauled off after a couple of mistakes? Tdb had a fine game overall inspite of his shaky patch and if we were to haul off every lad that made a mistake just because we want to follow the so called Cody model then we'd be left with our intermediate team on the pitch[/quote]

JesusRef

decies wrote: »

Anybody gone to see Waterford playing in that Celtic challenge thing ? Know they got hammered against Kilkenny and not doing much against Carlow as we speak . Are they very young inexperienced players we are putting out or what ? They are playing tipp in golden ( not far from me ) next week thinking of going !!

U17 development squads are impossible to run.
The best U17 players are involved with minors, lads are just getting involved with adult club teams and from my experience lads just give the club priority over the U17 county - fair enough really if they feel they can make a name playing adult club to make the next year's minor panel... just what I have seen first hand

hurler on de ditch

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Apart from De burca.... shur hes just plain useless.

Mc Grath's mistake was he did not take him off,you still don't get it do you !,i never said he was useless ,i was stating that he was playing particularly bad ,had cost his team a few points ,and had not learned from previous mistakes ,how long should a manager look at someone playing badly and costing his team scores ,before he takes action ,or should he wait until half time maybe look at a dvd from last year ,and say ah shur De Burca was great last year ,leave him on,[/quote]

Yes I get it, the laziest argument in the book... Cody would've taken him off. Sorry but that's bull****, as was summed up perfectly before, Cody doesn't haul lads off for making a mistake. he drops lads that are not standing up and being counted. This Cody would've taken him off nonsense is a myth and if you want to believe it then off you go. Maybe a few years ago when they had the greatest panel of all time Cody was ruthless but not now. Tdb had a fine game overall inspite of his shaky patch and if we were to haul off every lad that made a mistake just because we want to follow the so called Cody model then we'd be left with our intermediate team on the pitch[/QUOTE]as i said ,you just dont get it,

waterford28

PTH2009 wrote: »

I'd love tbd too have a stormer in June and Austin to score the winning point

What's Davy have against him ?

Anywhere to find a list of senior club managers for this year ?. Is Walsh still manager of ballygunner, is Tony Browne manager of Lismore ?

Cast your mind back to fitzgibbon, Davys over LIT, Aussie got a straight red against them this year.