Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

garv123

Is brick playing??

Deise10

Where's your sweeper now Derrick haha, imagine what Kilkenny would do to us #MCGRATHOUT

Deise10

Play a one man full forward line in the first half playing with a strong breeze, two men on Callanan who can barely walk.

Deise10

Deise10 wrote: »

Where's your sweeper now Derrick haha, imagine what Kilkenny would do to us #MCGRATHOUT

A sad day for Waterford hurling and Derek and all the players who put so much effort in but for all the talk in the media by McGrath about evolving no team can ever win anything meaningful by using such negative tactics. The team has not evolved at all. Mad as it is today can be a good thing for this team.
Change your tactics Derek, believe in your players ability and play 15v15. Then this team can finally evolve. Roll on Galway or Wexford the next day.

Gavlor

Poor performance from the throw in.

The team looked slow and sluggish.... Peaked too soon again??

jive

Crazy when you are on the front foot and with the wind to not throw more players forward. Can't hurt for tadhg to fill in for aussie at CB and go man for man when you are having a purple patch. It's for this reason we hit countless wides in such short periods which has been a trend all year.

A few soft goals meant we had to go for it and we got caught out. I think we'll still be there or thereabouts this year, horrible result but not the end of the world. We are not 20 odd points behind Tipp despite what the score line says.

Learn from it and move on. Great performance from tipp with Bubbles still to come back.

mickmackmcgoo

Superb from Tipp in fairness to them . The game was effectively over at half time. Very few of ours performed today . Lifeless. No leadership . No passion. Lethargic . Outfought . Some of our supposed better players didn't turn up. Let themselves down badly. Derek has lots to ponder on after that

PTH2009

Wexford at 2pm on the 24th July in semple it is

Bad day at the office, it's going to take a lot to get back on track, Wexford will be happy with this.

Limerick is always a graveyard for us

There's going to no repeat of the post Munster final 2011 this year, this Wexford team are way better than the 2011 Galway team

rgmmg

Nothing like a solid hiding in a munster final to reset expectations.

Deise_2012

Pth I'd love to grab your phone and throw it into the Shannon

wats the craic

mezitozil wrote: »

A sad day for Waterford hurling and Derek and all the players who put so much effort in but for all the talk in the media by McGrath about evolving no team can ever win anything meaningful by using such negative tactics. The team has not evolved at all. Mad as it is today can be a good thing for this team.
Change your tactics Derek, believe in your players ability and play 15v15. Then this team can finally evolve. Roll on Galway or Wexford the next day.

you are playing wexford who are waiting in the long grass for ye ....

Helpneeded86

blueflame wrote: »

In 2002 I stood in the Venue pub in cork - was being goadwd by a few Tipip lads were goading me and asked what our chances were i told them we were only here to enjoy the day out - there was two cork lads nearby and asked me what did I truly believe - I told them we would ate Tipp that day and am glad to say we did - I believe rightly or wrongly (maybe the alcohol has helped) but I believe this team we have is special, very special, and I believe tomorrow we will see them start a very special journey - UP THE DEISE

I sat outside the stadium in 2002 waiting to get in a car and had to head back to Dungarvan. The goading I received as a 16 year old really backed up my love of beating Waterford.

I love these days.

Alf Tupper

Helpneeded86 wrote: »

I sat outside the stadium in 2002 waiting to get in a car and had to head back to Dungarvan. The goading I received as a 16 year old really backed up my love of beating Waterford.

I love these days.

You're a sad man.

That's a very appropriate moniker you have!

taytobreath

I believe in the players, but not the system. It's the system that beat Waterford today. Every one knows that this team is capable of winning an all Ireland, but we lack what Kilkenny and tipperary are good at and that's goals. Did we even have one sniff of a goal today?

Deise10

After hearing Mcgrath told the players his position is untenable after a defeat like that and wished them all the best for the future? Don't know if it's true? Anyone else hear anything?

La.de.da

Genuine hard luck to the Deise today. Ye will regroup and come back.

wats the craic

Deise10 wrote: »

After hearing Mcgrath told the players his position is untenable after a defeat like that and wished them all the best for the future? Don't know if it's true? Anyone else hear anything?

he looked a broken man on tv

digzy

I'm from tipp and biased so ye can take this with a pinch of salt...
Normally a neutral would be up for Waterford but I think tipp winning was a positive for the game today. Ye've some cracking players but that defensive set up is like driving with the handbrake on. This defeat will fall at mcgraths feet.
Yere not as bad as ye appeared today. Hope ye get a crack at the cats but 'the system' will need some modification!

JesusRef

Devasting loss for the management, players and supporters..

After a few bleak years - thanks to these guys for letting us dream again.

Those dreams are dashed today - I feel so sorry for the lads who are so dedicated

Mulbert

A meltdown of epic proportions. How a team with the talent they have can buckle so easily is overwhelming me now. Was it 4 points in the second half? Holy ****!

Ropaire

There's days where our system is going to work, and there's days when it's wet and windy with a strong breeze driving down the field. Socky hit one or two puckouts into the D at the other end of the field in the first few minutes and it became obvious what Tipp would do second half, and what we should have done first half. Why oh why didn't we put a few ball winners at the edge of the square and go route 1? The last 20 mins of the first half was played in our half when any of our backs could have landed the ball into their square at will. Talk about making a rod for your own back!

cul beag

Oh god I'm distraught! No point in flogging a dead horse this evening and down the years I've been the worst perpetrator for doing so. It's a reality check for us that's for sure. We have to regroup we have no other option but to do so. Christ what a sickening feeling,one I didn't ever imagine happening today so I can just imagine how the players and management feel.

dubcat51

Players are slave's to the system. Playing with the wind was the last thing you wanted.playing a sweeper with the breeze is madness .as a kilkenny man pained me to prefer tipp winning today as the sweeper system is killing the game.15;000 only turned up last night.maybe after this players might question mc grath.
..

Teebor15

Ah lads..come on..I know it was a total whitewash today but its a one off. We're not getting hammered on a consistent basis. The lads just did'nt look up to it today for whatever reason, sluggish and no fight whereas Tipp were the opposite.

Derek and the his backroom team will sort this out, change the tactics either drastically or sutetly, the lads will regroup and I think we will beat Wexford and win our semi and get to the All Ireland where anything can happen on the day.

I still believe!

By the way. I like the sweeper and I think it does prevent goals conceded. But at least play your other 5 forwards in the correct half especially with the wind at your back!

HatchetMan7

The Waterford management are at a crossroads now, they have a big decision to make in regards what direction this team is heading. Absolutely no need to be calling for anyones heads to roll though. McGrath took the blame for the team being overtrained leading up to the game and rightly so. When every player underperforms the buck stops with management but over the last 2 years Waterford have been good and before today it looked like they had improved again from last year.
But and its a big but, teams like Tipp and Kilkenny have the players and managers to expose the current system we are playing. I was one of the people who wanted to give this system a fair go and see where it takes us but thats 2 Munster finals where tipp found this system out and if tipp can do it kilkenny will certainly do it also.
In wet conditions you need to hit the ball into the full forward line direct and have enough players in there to win the breaks which is how tipp got most of their goals from. Short hand passing and stick passing in wet conditions may work against some teams but not against the top two teams and that's a fact. It was fairly obvious today that once tipp pushed up and put pressure on the Waterford backs that we'd struggle to win possession in the forward line which is what happened in last years Munster final and the semi final against kilkenny.

tomwaterford

Going nowhere with that system....I've defended it before

But tip have exposed for all time how to defeat it....a disaster of a result and every bit as bad as anything I've ever seen


It wasn't that Waterford were very poor etc...its flaws have been 100% exposed and would be again if they were to meet

What's the point of it...assuming it was to stop easy goals leaked???


Time to put down a marker and change it around....that was Waterford best team and il be fcuked if they are 21 points off tipp man-for-man

Though kudos to tipp for a ferious work rate esp in the forwards as midfield....no one can argue with that result




I haven't even the stomach for facing into a qualifier campaign following them....as I'd only be fearing same to happen

cornerboy

**** the course on finals day again

culbaire

culbaire wrote: »

You won't win the matches that matter which are generally played on firmer ground. Wait and see. The system will get you through in the muck and slush of winter but will be exposed for what it is in the later stages of the championship. Waterford is fitter than most top teams at this stage of the year. Other teams will be on a par with Waterford later on in the year in terms of fitness and will also be fresher. Tipperary and Kilkenny are only now stepping up intensity of training.

This is not meant to be an attack on Derek McGrath or on any player. Nobody went out to lose today. I know players and management are devastated. Now we have got to dig ourselves out of the pit.

For the last two years here I have attacked ruck and maul/barstadised hurling system being utilised by Waterford. Early this year I anticipated this in the above and other posts though not the extent of the defeat.. I post this in great sadness not to blow my trumpet. It was a disaster today. There is no point in pretending otherwise. We have got to LEARN from this.

This system must go. It has stifled the creative skills of many of the players. The reality is that there are glaring weaknesses in the full back-line. I stress WEAKNESSES. The system has sought to mask this. It was blown to pieces today as I anticipated it would. We had forwards out 40 metres from the goal. Forwards were shooting from too far out. No wonder there was no scoring threat. The style of hurling is sluggish with too much hand passing and soloing into trouble. The short puck out must stop. It is a recipe for disaster. Tipperary striking was much crisper. Tipperary played direct hurling. It paid dividends. Waterford must go down the same route. Move the ball at speed. The ball travels faster than the man and direct hurling will give defenses less time to cover

It is time to freshen up the team with changes in the full back-line and elsewhere. I pity Austin Gleason who is moved here there and everywhere. The reality is that the team is not as good as a lot of supporters think. We still have a lot to learn from the likes of Kilkenny and Tipperary. Now I know I will probably be attacked for this but so be it. Possibly others will have more suggestions for improvement?

Alpha Centauri

tomwaterford wrote: »

Two more wins after today....

Think people are massively underestimating the quality of players on this team....they are more than a match for any team out there...as even on a bad/off day the workrate will bring them into games

Honestly expect to be celebrating another win today

Holy moley !

they're certainly not that bad....I really feel for em.

Hats off to Tipp, top notch performance !!

mickmackmcgoo

culbaire wrote:

It is time to freshen up the team with changes in the full back-line and elsewhere. I pity Austin Gleason who is moved here there and everywhere. The reality is that the team is not as good as a lot of supporters think. We still have a lot to learn from the likes of Kilkenny and Tipperary. Now I know I will probably be attacked for this but so be it. Possibly others will will have more suggestions for improvement?

You are mostly right in your analysis . I don't think we have the ability to go 15 on 15 though. Too many of our players would struggle. 2 in particular are young and probably not yet ready for this level of hurling but will be eventually. The full back line is definitely a concern but who have we to come in ? Mcnulty, C Gleeson, Gavin o Brien I don't know. It's gutting as a supporter to lose like that so you can only imagine how the players are feeling . The effort and training and giving up their lives for the team and county and to have a bad day like that must be gut wrenching and will take a lot to pick them up from it. You would have to think Tipp are up to beating KK now.

jelutong

4 points from play. That's a pretty meagre return from 70 minutes of hurling.

letowski

jelutong wrote:

4 points from play. That's a pretty meagre return from 70 minutes of hurling.

Espeically with the forwards ye have.

robopaddy2

Helpneeded86 wrote: »

I sat outside the stadium in 2002 waiting to get in a car and had to head back to Dungarvan. The goading I received as a 16 year old really backed up my love of beating Waterford.

I love these days.

refer to username

DiscoStew

culbaire wrote: »

culbaire wrote: »

You won't win the matches that matter which are generally played on firmer ground. Wait and see. The system will get you through in the muck and slush of winter but will be exposed for what it is in the later stages of the championship. Waterford is fitter than most top teams at this stage of the year. Other teams will be on a par with Waterford later on in the year in terms of fitness and will also be fresher. Tipperary and Kilkenny are only now stepping up intensity of training.

This is not meant to be an attack on Derek McGrath or on any player. Nobody went out to lose today. I know players and management are devastated. Now we have got to dig ourselves out of the pit.

For the last two years here I have attacked ruck and maul/barstadised hurling system being utilised by Waterford. Early this year I anticipated this in the above and other posts though not the extent of the defeat.. I post this in great sadness not to blow my trumpet. It was a disaster today. There is no point in pretending otherwise. We have got to LEARN from this.

This system must go. It has stifled the creative skills of many of the players. The reality is that there are glaring weaknesses in the full back-line. I stress WEAKNESSES. The system has sought to mask this. It was blown to pieces today as I anticipated it would. We had forwards out 40 metres from the goal. Forwards were shooting from too far out. No wonder there was no scoring threat. The style of hurling is sluggish with too much hand passing and soloing into trouble. The short puck out must stop. It is a recipe for disaster. Tipperary striking was much crisper. Tipperary played direct hurling. It paid dividends. Waterford must go down the same route. Move the ball at speed. The ball travels faster than the man and direct hurling will give defenses less time to cover

It is time to freshen up the team with changes in the full back-line and elsewhere. I pity Austin Gleason who is moved here there and everywhere. The reality is that the team is not as good as a lot of supporters think. We still have a lot to learn from the likes of Kilkenny and Tipperary. Now I know I will probably be attacked for this but so be it. Possibly others will have more suggestions for improvement?

Definitely agree on changes to full back line, and I don't even mean at full back. I thought Connors, and particularly Shane Fives, were very poor today. I'd have no problem putting McNulty or Gleeson in there for Wexford. Maybe if Gleeson shoes well for the U21's he might get a start. Might be no harm to shake it up a tiny bit. They did it to an extent with the substitutions taking off some of the established players who weren't delivering. Hopefully that's the kick up the Arse some need and can refocus again for Wexford.

robopaddy2

Very concerned after today. Nice to see some people trying to turn it into a positive by saying its a 'kick up the arse' or a 'reality check'. But unfortunately not a simple as that. The wheels have come off today big time and it was a fair statement from Tipp about what they thought about our sweeper system. No doubt Cody and KK will be itching to have a go at it aswell. Lads make no mistake about it we will not see a change of system for the Wexford game. This management has spent so much time and thought into this sytem over a 2 and a half year period do you honestly think its all going to change completely after one defeat. We have never even showed signs of having a plan B, I don't know would our lads even know how to go 15 v 15 at this stage.
Hard to think about where to next. If the u21s could get the win on Wednesday night it might give everyone a bit of a lift going into the Wexford game. Wexford will be no pushovers, especially given our record against them in championship. The reward for winning that, another semi final v KK. Christ....

PTH2009

We went man to man with Wexford in the league last April and we're well beaten for that period of time going a few points behind

The management will have a lot to ponder over the winter if we go old style in the Wexford game and are well beaten

The under 21 game Wednesday is a Must Must win game for us. It could get the train rolling again and give a boost going into the senior qf and under 21 Munster final

I'm worried a bit after watching how deflated Derek looked in his post match interview. Has he thrown in the towel ???

Walking away from this is the cowards way out

I'd let the players leave there hair down tonight only. Team meeting 2morrow . The non u21 lads can train on Tuesday and full squad training session on Friday.

wats the craic

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Very concerned after today. Nice to see some people trying to turn it into a positive by saying its a 'kick up the arse' or a 'reality check'. But unfortunately not a simple as that. The wheels have come off today big time and it was a fair statement from Tipp about what they thought about our sweeper system. No doubt Cody and KK will be itching to have a go at it aswell. Lads make no mistake about it we will not see a change of system for the Wexford game. This management has spent so much time and thought into this sytem over a 2 and a half year period do you honestly think its all going to change completely after one defeat. We have never even showed signs of having a plan B, I don't know would our lads even know how to go 15 v 15 at this stage.
Hard to think about where to next. If the u21s could get the win on Wednesday night it might give everyone a bit of a lift going into the Wexford game. Wexford will be no pushovers, especially given our record against them in championship. The reward for winning that, another semi final v KK. Christ....

well as a wexford man who used to love your team from the 2000s i really cant believe how you have competly changed your style of play to this sytem . it started with davy and gone to new levels under mcgrath . wexford also use a sweeper our midfielder drops deep after each puck out . if your going to beat use you have stop chin , and mcdonald who is a beast at 20 yrs old . chin is the general of the team the players around him would practally die for him on the field , we have the youngest panel in the country oldest player is 25 . you should win but they said that in 03 and 14 ,could be a massive crowd from wexford heading as i think our minors are playing at 12 against limerick . i really hope ye can turn things around but maybe not in two weeks , but should be a close hard game watever happens

Dick phelan

Honestly the worst half of hurling i'v ever seen from a Waterford team, no fight, shocking at the back, abysmal shooting just crap in every way, While we won't play that bad again sadly i think our system has been exposed today, If and it's a big if after today we get by Wexford it's another SF defeat to KK and i worry it will be a heavy defeat. Another final defeat just depressing stuff. If ever weather matched a performance it was today just pure ****e. Atmosphere was terrible even in the first half i'm never going to the Gaelic grounds again was an absolute nightmare to get to and from and atmosphere is lacking.

Deisegodeo

Absolute disaster of a day. Desperate performance from Waterford, really did not see that coming.

System appears badly exposed now, hard to know where we go from here for rest of summer. Would losing to Wexford in quarter final be better than the possibility of a thumping from Kilkenny in the semi final? Hard to believe we are facing these questions now but thats our reality.

I'm never going to a big game in Limerick again, got absolutely soaked, team took a hammering and getting up there and back was an ordeal

hurler on de ditch

get rid of Mc Grath now ,before he actually infests the team/this group of lads with negativity that will take years to get rid of ,,three year plan me bollix

hurler on de ditch

PTH2009 wrote: »

We went man to man with Wexford in the league last April and we're well beaten for that period of time going a few points behind

The management will have a lot to ponder over the winter if we go old style in the Wexford game and are well beaten

The under 21 game Wednesday is a Must Must win game for us. It could get the train rolling again and give a boost going into the senior qf and under 21 Munster final

I'm worried a bit after watching how deflated Derek looked in his post match interview. Has he thrown in the towel ???

Walking away from this is the cowards way out

I'd let the players leave there hair down tonight only. Team meeting 2morrow . The non u21 lads can train on Tuesday and full squad training session on Friday.

resign he should never have been given the job ,,absolutely horrendous .negativity negativity , leave Derek and if anyone asks what you did with a three year plan .tell them you dont know, one thing to be learned from today is ,you can't play football with a hurley in your hand ,,pure and utter ****e

Clonmel1000

cul beag wrote: »

Waterford win by 4-5pts next Sunday. Don't say you weren't told!!

Thanks for letting us know in advance.

Clonmel1000

tomwaterford wrote: »

Waterford won't be playing in any quarter finals

How did work out?

Psychedelic

We were ripped to shreds today, Tipp showed how to beat our system. Feels like the cat is out of the bag now and every team will know how to do the same to us. Sad to say but there's no way we can win an AI this year after such a hammering. To have a defensive system and still get torn asunder... **** sake.

Tipp drove in long ball and got lots of men forward, we couldn't handle them. Conversely we drove loads of ball in without committing numbers to attack and our forwards were snuffed out.

RIP The System. This wasn't just a "bad day at the office", we got well and truly f'd in the a.

barneystinson

Clonmel1000 wrote: »

How did work out?

Did you not hear? Tipp won, 5-19 to 13 points. Thought you'd have heard, did you not have TV, radio or internet coverage?

Oh wait, or maybe you're just being a dickhead on the internet... Is that what it is?

Deise2016

Terrible terrible day foe everyone concerned.

Really feel for the players and management who have put in such a huge effort over the last number of years, they do not deserve a beating like that on their record.

Where did things go wrong?

The venue for a start, this always seemed a strange and illogical decision.

Thurles may be home to Tipp but it is also home from home for Waterford.

Today would have been our 6th game there this year alone.
We had big wins there last year in league and championship and experience of last years Munster Final.
Would we have had more support in Thurles? For certain.
Did playing in Limerick bring our lads out of their 'comfort zone' of Thurles? It would seem so and we didn't react well.

Derek mentioned the lads were leggy and not really at the pace. Whatever way you look at it a long bus journey from Waterford to Limerick, even if broken up, is not ideal preparation in hindsight.

On the pitch, without playing well we were the better team for the first 20/25 minutes.
Second half was a complete collapse.

Austin Gleeson (outstanding at times for a 21 year old when the rest of the team is struggling like that) and maybe De Burca/Moran in parts were the only Waterford players that even had decent games so any analysis of the tactics or system in nearly redundant in that case.

Would the tactics have worked better if we had performed individually?
Or did the tactics prevent us from performing individually?

Changes for the next day and for Kilkenny.

Colin Dunford and Devine in, maybe for Bennett and Brick? or for Pauric Mahoney with Maurice back on the frees.

A strong spine may also be the way to go.

Connors full back, Austin centre back, Moran and Barron midfield, Shanahan centre forward, Devine full forward.

PTH2009

Psychedelic wrote: »

We were ripped to shreds today, Tipp showed how to beat our system. Feels like the cat is out of the bag now and every team will know how to do the same to us. Sad to say but there's no way we can win an AI this year after such a hammering. To have a defensive system and still get torn asunder... **** sake.

Tipp drove in long ball and got lots of men forward, we couldn't handle them. Conversely we drove loads of ball in without committing numbers to attack and our forwards were snuffed out.

RIP The System. This wasn't just a "bad day at the office", we got well and truly f'd in the a.

Derek needs an experienced right hand man eg a John Allen, Anthony Daly etc. Someone who is a good tactician

Dan (more of the motivator, than a tactics man) and fintan o connor ( not sure of his role) could do with some experience in the management
camp too.

Donal Og being apart of the Clare management team has given there camp a buzz

Derek and Co may go dis year if we get another hammering (something that was unimaginable dis time last month)

Today's defeat hurts now, it's going to even harder for the next few days. The under 21s can start the recovery Wednesday. Wexford are beeming I'd say (**** all to lose, very young squad overall)

tomwaterford

PTH2009 wrote: »

Derek needs an experienced right hand man eg a John Allen, Anthony Daly etc. Someone who is a good tactician

Dan (more of the motivator, than a tactics man) and fintan o connor ( not sure of his role) could do with some experience in the management
camp too.

Donal Og being apart of the Clare management team has given there camp a buzz

Derek and Co may go dis year if we get another hammering (something that was unimaginable dis time last month)

Today's defeat hurts now, it's going to even harder for the next few days. The under 21s can start the recovery Wednesday. Wexford are beeming I'd say (**** all to lose, very young squad overall)

He needs to park that sweeper were going nowhere with it

It's been exposed and it's inexcusable if we somehow beat Wexford to go up to croke park and kk do the same as tipp did today with out at least an attempt at overhauling the tactics

No need for such player changes the next day, the 15 named is our strongest 15, just line the team out like it was named, cut out the negative tactics and leave the ball in fast and direct (cut out the over emphasis on short passing and soloing). Just like Brian Cody would do.

windy shepard henderson

i dont think the sweeper is the problem , i think the fact that teams opt for 3 or 4 roaming midfielders is a bad tactic , it limits the amount of forwards as a result yesterday fot most of the game in thurles clare had 3 forwards each double marked today tipperary had 5 forwards at all times to aim at when clearing there lines which limited waterfords blanket middle 3rd ,

waterford will have a big say in things yet , they had not played a bad game all year up until today but yea derrick has to tinker with the game plan ......just when it looked like it was working