Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

thesultan

We started with one forward inside the 65. Crazy stuff. We ran into traffic too much too. Our short play game doesn't suit the conditions.

tomwaterford

seananigans wrote: »

right lads to anyone asking for dereks head ,basically, shut up

how many matches has he won result he ground out one match and you're riding him?

feck off this is a man who has a quadriplegic wheelchair bound child and finds time to manage waterford and give his all, you have to respect his commitment and his guile, hes not expected to get it right every time if it was so easy you would all be doing it

we have over achieved the last 2 years and one bad result does not change that , didnt tipp get fired out of Munster in 2010 and we all know how that ended

tis easy to support them in the good times,but this forum is for the hardcore people, they need our support more than ever right now, the waterford never say die attitude has sadly been lacking here the last few days, so unless you can take a jersey off aussie shut up and put up, this is our team,and we need to be behind them , anyone who wants to throw daggers, start in ferrybank and keep heading north until you feel at home

Not asking for his head...but wanting an end to this system

It's been exposed how to beat it....


Do you not see that tipp will do the same again if they met in the morning???



It's bad when at the back of it....you don't want to see Waterford playing kk as you should be relishing a crack at them



There's no point in burying the head in the sand and pretending it was a freak one-off result

seananigans

tomwaterford wrote: »

Not asking for his head...but wanting an end to this system

It's bad when at the back of it....you don't want to see Waterford playing kk as you should be relishing a crack at them



There's no point in burying the head in the sand and pretending it was a freak one-off result

this the same kk we rode earlier in the year yeah ?

it was a freak one off result ,in that is happened once, and no one was expecting it, that is exactly the definition of what happened

tomwaterford

seananigans wrote: »

this the same kk we rode earlier in the year yeah ?

it was a freak one off result ,in that is happened once, and no one was expecting it, that is exactly the definition of what happened

Do you not see it failed 100%

It's dead in the water as a tactic to Persue it further is a criminal waste of talent at the disposal


Mcgrath has done a great job...but if he persists with a tactic that's doomed to failure...

I do believe he have it in him to lay out a team and come up with s better more suited tactic....





If they played tipp tomorrow morning playing same as Sunday would they win....simple yes/no question??

JeffKenna

seananigans wrote: »

this the same kk we rode earlier in the year yeah ?

it was a freak one off result ,in that is happened once, and no one was expecting it, that is exactly the definition of what happened

Yes the same kilkenny who were just back from their team holiday so I wouldn't read too much into that result.

seananigans

tomwaterford wrote: »

Do you not see it failed 100%

It's dead in the water as a tactic to Persue it further is a criminal waste of talent at the disposal


Mcgrath has done a great job...but if he persists with a tactic that's doomed to failure...

I do believe he have it in him to lay out a team and come up with s better more suited tactic....





If they played tipp tomorrow morning playing same as Sunday would they win....simple yes/no question??

]]sure youre right sure didnt kk in 2010 change everything they did because they lost a single match

nonsense of the highest order if it continues to happen sure, but this was a once off at least for now

deisechap09

Amazing to see some of the comments re our system since yesterday - Our system didn't lose that game for us lads, we seriously underperformed all over the field - We could have set up 15 on 15 etc yesterday but we simply wouldn't have won given the amount of errors we made.

Our first touch was poor, striking poor, decision-making all over the place and aerially completely dominated.

These players are far better than how they performed yesterday, and will improve again - If we do beat Wexford it might actually help going in under the radar against the cats, but Wexford will give us enough of it in 2 weeks.

Fred C Dobbs

Still a bit shellshocked after yesterday - even at half time, you wouldn't have foreseen the 2nd half meltdown. Hard to fathom really. For a team that thrives on workrate, honesty etc. it was hard to watch Tipp walking all over us.

Aussie, for all his talent, is putting a target on his own back to get sent off. Don't know why Shane Bennett was left on Pauric Maher for so long which was an obvious mismatch but Shane will come good for many years to come. Lastly, what about those assholes in the uncovered stand who jeered at the Waterford wides even when their own team were well ahead.

Need to freshen things up if we are to get over Wexford (e.g. surely some of the panellists must be raring to get some game time) and throw caution to the wind against Kilkenny. Personally, I think Devine has to start as were lacking in big strong forwards (who also have some pace) and likewise Stephen Bennett.

tomwaterford

seananigans wrote: »

]]sure youre right sure didnt kk in 2010 change everything they did because they lost a single match

nonsense of the highest order if it continues to happen sure, but this was a once off at least for now

I don't in my lifetime recall any team having a complete malfunction as what occurred Sunday except Waterford in all Ireland 08

This was worse than when tipp took them for 7 goals a few years ago....beaten in each and every position...,,it was apparent well before the end all semblance of teamwork And work rate was adbandoned


How ever bad you play/going there's no excuse for giving up....keep plugging away and try keep scoreline respectable and try win next 10 mins etc....it's not unreasonable belief to hold

Deise2016

Reasons to be positive.

1. We have one of the best top top players in the country in Austin Gleeson

2. A core of very good young players in the 18 - 24 age bracket including forwards with great potential in Curran, Devine and the Bennetts

3. In Jamie Barron we have one of the best midfield players around at the moment

4. We played a very good Clare side off the pitch a few weeks ago in Thurles

What needs to be done, in my opinion.

1. No goals in recent games against Tipp and Kilkenny means we need to target goals. We have too few players on the pitch that carry a goal threat and far too many that don't. The players that can score goals ( Shanahan, Devine, Curran, Bennett, Dunford) need to be in the team at the expense of those that don't have a goal threat. If that means lads such as Brick Walsh and Pauric Mahoney, who don't offer a goal threat, don't start then so be it. We need to score more goals and to do this we need to have the likes of Devine, Shanahan and Dunford on the pitch.

2. A rejig of the defence as the tried and trusted may be good enough against Wexford but won't beat Kilkenny.
I would like to see a full back line of Conor Gleeson and Shane Fives in the corners with Connors full back. Darragh Fives and Philip Mahony wing backs with Austin Gleeson centre back. Then have De Burca playing as a sweeper and free to slot in centre back to cover Austin when he drives forward from there.

3. At least two forwards if not three (Devine, Curran and Shanahan) in close to goal at all times.

4. Yesterday to be forgotten about. Learned from but forgotten about. We have a committed, dedicated group of players and management that have made us proud over the last couple of years. We need to get behind them and travel to Thurles in numbers come Sunday week

tomwaterford

Connors there for the taking at full back-lack of pace/height???

seananigans

Deise2016 wrote: »

Reasons to be positive.

1. We have one of the best top top players in the country in Austin Gleeson

2. A core of very good young players in the 18 - 24 age bracket including forwards with great potential in Curran, Devine and the Bennetts

3. In Jamie Barron we have one of the best midfield players around at the moment

4. We played a very good Clare side off the pitch a few weeks ago in Thurles

What needs to be done, in my opinion.

1. No goals in recent games against Tipp and Kilkenny means we need to target goals. We have too few players on the pitch that carry a goal threat and far too many that don't. The players that can score goals ( Shanahan, Devine, Curran, Bennett, Dunford) need to be in the team at the expense of those that don't have a goal threat. If that means lads such as Brick Walsh and Pauric Mahoney, who don't offer a goal threat, don't start then so be it. We need to score more goals and to do this we need to have the likes of Devine, Shanahan and Dunford on the pitch.

2. A rejig of the defence as the tried and trusted may be good enough against Wexford but won't beat Kilkenny.
I would like to see a full back line of Conor Gleeson and Shane Fives in the corners with Connors full back. Darragh Fives and Philip Mahony wing backs with Austin Gleeson centre back. Then have De Burca playing as a sweeper and free to slot in centre back to cover Austin when he drives forward from there.

3. At least two forwards if not three (Devine, Curran and Shanahan) in close to goal at all times.

4. Yesterday to be forgotten about. Learned from but forgotten about. We have a committed, dedicated group of players and management that have made us proud over the last couple of years. We need to get behind them and travel to Thurles in numbers come Sunday week

hold on now nr 2. barry coughlan didnt get nominated on an allstar for nothing that long has done nothing wrong, he has been solid for us, only reason hes not talked about is he is doing s good job ,leave him be

deisechap09

In fairness to our backs, yesterday was just an off-day. Never seen Philip Mahony and D Fives hit as little ball as that.

Its probably harsh on Coughlan to be removed, he hasnt done anything wrong and was probably unlucky with the penalty. When we do go back to a more orthodox style, D Fives is surely the answer at centre back

mickmackmcgoo

Those saddos who tweeted about Maurice should be ashamed of themselves . Some sick people about . All of us here to an extent are hiding behind an alias but those keyboard warriors I hope karma bites them in the ass big time

wexilad

Really looking forward to facing yez lads. Nothing other than a 50/50 game in my opinion , there is never much more than a score between us. I would advise all Waterford supporters not to lose hope after Sunday's poor showing, we felt the same after our dismal showing against Dublin and we are now right back in the championship! Sport is funny sometimes and I expect a huge response from Waterford and we better be ready for it.

independent11

wats the craic wrote: »

we should out number ye 2 to 1 in the crowd so the atmosphere will be quare i tell ya san

Your supporters didn't travel on Saturday night to Thurles, the least supported county there by far. Will they be crawling out of the woodwork and suddenly become yellow belly die hards by sunday week ?

robopaddy2

deisechap09 wrote: »

In fairness to our backs, yesterday was just an off-day. Never seen Philip Mahony and D Fives hit as little ball as that.

Its probably harsh on Coughlan to be removed, he hasnt done anything wrong and was probably unlucky with the penalty. When we do go back to a more orthodox style, D Fives is surely the answer at centre back

Look the system is designed to give the fullback loads of protection. No disrespect to Coughlan but my granny could do a job at fullback with this system. The role he is asked to do is play the man rather than the ball, that is all well and good until you come up against the likes of Callinan like we saw yesterday, you're always going to be tethering on the brink. For John McGraths goal where he ran straight through the middle and booted it in, there is no way there should have been that much space in front of SOK. A conventional full back would have been manning this space but instead our full back had been dragged way out to open this space for the in-rushing Tipp forwards. In a nutshell Tipp cracked us wide open and the worst thing is that in hindsight it didn't take rocket-science to suss us out

robopaddy2

seananigans wrote: »

this the same kk we rode earlier in the year yeah ?

No this the KK that await in the semi for us if we beat Wexford. Different beast entirely

Cake Man

Yeah there's a world of difference between first game of the league in February and an AI semi final in August. KK never have any problems in AI semi finals (I can't even remember the last time they lost one?) so ourselves or Wexford are in for a daunting task.


Clare 21 team for Weds:
Vaughan,
Hayes, Fitz, Cooney
McCarthy, McGuane, O'Gorman
Conroy, Hehir
Donnellan, Duggan, Gleeson
Taylor, Crehan, Shanagher.


Maybe Prunty to man-mark Shanagher? Given that Shanagher is a big lad and an aerial threat, we'll need an equally big and physically imposing player to match him.
If we win and Tipp beat Limerick in the other semi final, I'm fairly sure we'd have home advantage for the Munster final. Last time we played Tipp in U21 was 2011 in Thurles so I'm assuming the alternating home/away rule is still in place. Munster GAA website only gives U21 results back as far as 2009 and we haven't met Limerick at this grade since then so not sure if we played them home or away last.

Edit: Hammered at home in 08 the last time v Limerick at u21 so assuming away the next time we meet.

cul beag

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Look the system is designed to give the fullback loads of protection. No disrespect to Coughlan but my granny could do a job at fullback with this system. The role he is asked to do is play the man rather than the ball, that is all well and good until you come up against the likes of Callinan like we saw yesterday, you're always going to be tethering on the brink. For John McGraths goal where he ran straight through the middle and booted it in, there is no way there should have been that much space in front of SOK. A conventional full back would have been manning this space but instead our full back had been dragged way out to open this space for the in-rushing Tipp forwards. In a nutshell Tipp cracked us wide open and the worst thing is that in hindsight it didn't take rocket-science to suss us out

Well put.

cul beag

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Those saddos who tweeted about Maurice should be ashamed of themselves . Some sick people about . All of us here to an extent are hiding behind an alias but those keyboard warriors I hope karma bites them in the ass big time

Disgraceful post on Twitter about him,absolutely terrible. Why though it was brought to the masses on social media outlets I have a question with? Go to the relevant authorities and do your business behind closed doors instead of playing out the problem in front of everyone. As I said it was a despicable post and one that whomever posted should be dealt with accordingly but not done so in the public domain.

tomwaterford

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Those saddos who tweeted about Maurice should be ashamed of themselves . Some sick people about . All of us here to an extent are hiding behind an alias but those keyboard warriors I hope karma bites them in the ass big time

It should be pointed out that those who tweeted about Maurice shanahan hid behind a pic that wasn't even them.

Low as fcuk....whatever about posting anoymus here....to hide behind a picture of some young lad from Waterford is pure scummy

O Riain

Can anyone tell me how playing 15 on 15 would have stopped us shipping 5 goals on Sunday? They put 5 goals past us with a crowded defence, granted ball was coming back in on top of us a bit easier because of the lack of forwards but I still don't see how the system can be blamed for Tipp scoring 5 goals against us.

If anything it would have been worse if we lined out 15 on 15.

Professey Chin

O Riain wrote: »

Can anyone tell me how playing 15 on 15 would have stopped us shipping 5 goals on Sunday? They put 5 goals past us with a crowded defence, granted ball was coming back in on top of us a bit easier because of the lack of forwards but I still don't see how the system can be blamed for Tipp scoring 5 goals against us.

If anything it would have been worse if we lined out 15 on 15.

I think it would have forced different tactics at least. We crowded midfield and the half back line and stayed completely static while their forwards ran as soon as a ball was played. Combined with a massive gale it was simple work for Tipp. Take their time, play over the crowd, slippery conditions almost guaranteed a breaking ball with their support players already on the move before our lads knew what was happening. The fact they could do it repeatedly without anything being addressed from the line worries me. You could see it happening every time.

hurler on de ditch

seananigans wrote: »

right lads to anyone asking for dereks head ,basically, shut up

how many matches has he won result he ground out one match and you're riding him?

feck off this is a man who has a quadriplegic wheelchair bound child and finds time to manage waterford and give his all, you have to respect his commitment and his guile, hes not expected to get it right every time if it was so easy you would all be doing it

we have over achieved the last 2 years and one bad result does not change that , didnt tipp get fired out of Munster in 2010 and we all know how that ended

tis easy to support them in the good times,but this forum is for the hardcore people, they need our support more than ever right now, the waterford never say die attitude has sadly been lacking here the last few days, so unless you can take a jersey off aussie shut up and put up, this is our team,and we need to be behind them , anyone who wants to throw daggers, start in ferrybank and keep heading north until you feel at home

yeh he came in with a three year plan ,i wonder what his plan was for this stage ,either way he has failed and failed miserably ,time to move on ,he made us difficult to beat against opposition of the caliber of ourselves, but unfortunately very hard to beat any of the top teams,some of us are not SHEEP we do have an opinion and to have a right to criticize ,when criticism is warranted,he also applied/went for the job of his own free will,for the record i will be in Thurles the next day ,i, like most people on here are very good and loyal supporters,and i, like most people on here are disillusioned with the so called tactics/systems they have in place ,it is nothing short of puke football ,its getting increasingly difficult to beat the top teams with 5 or 6 top quality forwards and i for one can tell you its damn near impossible to beat them with one if not two forwards ,last sunday was horrendous and it has not being the first time ive said that this year ,

hurler on de ditch

tomwaterford wrote: »

It should be pointed out that those who tweeted about Maurice shanahan hid behind a pic that wasn't even them.

Low as fcuk....whatever about posting anoymus here....to hide behind a picture of some young lad from Waterford is pure scummy

agreed ,****ing ****

cornerboy

Whatever system is in place doesn't matter........it's hard work that makes it work. We worked very hard against Clare and got the rewards, on sunday we didn't work at all. Whose to blame for that I don't know but my first glance would be towards the players. They are good players, but without putting in the work on the pitch they are at nothing and if that happens again wexford will come out on top on sunday week.

Horseboxhead

Any News of a team for tomorrow night?, should be a good one.

Deise_2012

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

seananigans wrote: »

right lads to anyone asking for dereks head ,basically, shut up

how many matches has he won result he ground out one match and you're riding him?

feck off this is a man who has a quadriplegic wheelchair bound child and finds time to manage waterford and give his all, you have to respect his commitment and his guile, hes not expected to get it right every time if it was so easy you would all be doing it

we have over achieved the last 2 years and one bad result does not change that , didnt tipp get fired out of Munster in 2010 and we all know how that ended

tis easy to support them in the good times,but this forum is for the hardcore people, they need our support more than ever right now, the waterford never say die attitude has sadly been lacking here the last few days, so unless you can take a jersey off aussie shut up and put up, this is our team,and we need to be behind them , anyone who wants to throw daggers, start in ferrybank and keep heading north until you feel at home

yeh he came in with a three year plan ,i wonder what his plan was for this stage ,either way he has failed and failed miserably ,time to move on ,he made us difficult to beat against opposition of the caliber of ourselves, but unfortunately very hard to beat any of the top teams,some of us are not SHEEP we do have an opinion and to have a right to criticize ,when criticism is warranted,he also applied/went for the job of his own free will,for the record i will be in Thurles the next day ,i, like most people on here are very good and loyal supporters,and i, like most people on here are disillusioned with the so called tactics/systems they have in place ,it is nothing short of puke football ,its getting increasingly difficult to beat the top teams with 5 or 6 top quality forwards and i for one can tell you its damn near impossible to beat them with one if not two forwards ,last sunday was horrendous and it has not being the first time ive said that this year ,

Explain to me how he has failed miserably? Winning a league title and getting us back into Croke Park after 4 years is failing miserably? I'd hate to see what you say about the Limerick or Cork managers so

blueflame

As regards post on Twitter re Maurice , disgraceful - the comment itself and using another persons identity, to me is an attempt to hide their own shame, and that says it all.

As regards the "system" - am fed up hearing about it - we are Waterford , we are a team, we are not a system. We are starting to operate like a factory line, each part totally contingent on the next and when on part fails the line collapses.

I agree that Derek had to try and make us harder to beat, and we needed to address the area conceding soft goals, but some many times these goals come from problems further out the field. I have been very critical of some of Derek's tactics and have been very praise worthy all so, nobody gets it right all the time. I will judge the team and Derek not on last Sunday, but on what happens next and how they react. KK were giving a drubbing by Clare recently and the result that day could have been worse for them. They left the hysterics to others and the media , they sat down, they looked at their mistakes, regrouped and have looked almost invincible since. I feel that you can see in their mentality that they cannot change what happened but by God they will do everything in their power to make sure it won't happen again.

We need to be brave and we need to move on. Last Sunday we invited Tipperary onto us and to drive forward, we allowed them to crowd our half back line and disrupt us there. The results were every time we got a ball we had no outlet, we ended up hitting aimless ball under pressure up the field where it came straight back over our heads into the danger area, we played high risk passes across the lines to other players who were under pressure immediately with the weight of numbers, or we tried to run out with the ball and ran into traffic which given the conditions was crazy.

We talk about crowding out their half forwards, but when half forwards are willing to work as hard as the Tipp lads did, the result is reversed, especially when their primary aim was to get the ball into the inside forward line as quickly as possible.

As i have said already it is too late this year to just abandon the system, but we do need to adjust it and adjust it quickly - we have become way way to predictable and we just don't know what to do when things go wrong other than to keep retreating.

The big worry i have from last Sunday was Derek's post match interview - when asked about the failure of the system he spoke about playing conventionally in the first half before reverting to it. Putting a third man in the forward line for a while does not mean playing conventionally, when you are still trying to do the exact same things around the pitch as normal. there was at least two puck-outs in the first half that found Tipperary players in acres of space on their own around our half back line. If we were playing conventionally that should not have happened.

I had a good look back at the whole game on TV last night and I am far from an expert (despite positing on here) but i can tell you I identified some glaring mistakes and flaws that will not take massive surgery to correct - I can only hope that our management team and selectors will carry out an analysis with an open and not a closed mind and do a KK on it - eradicate the mistakes and learn from them - do this and we can improve massively and we can still play a serious part in this championship. Choose to ignore them and things are going to get a whole lot worse real quick.

I can tell you now the Liam Dunne and Brian Cody and every other manger will carry out the exact same analysis and as i said if i can spot flaws and weakness and how were were exploited, they will spot ten times that . We must perform the same honest and very critical analysis.

Bonniedog

What exactly are people saying about Shanahan?

I saw tweet from Dublin player that suggested pretty unpleasant stuff - be fair to say player in question is not a fan, but seemed horrified by what was being said.


From what I saw of the game, he had no chance. Tipp backs are good enough without giving them a man advantage over you!

letsseehere14

Just my thoughts on last week, from a neutral position. I'm commenting here becasue I truelly want there to be greater competition in the Championship and Waterford along with Galway are best placed to provide that. But not Waterford in their current state.

I see a lot of people here dismissing this as a once off, lax performance and it wont happen again. I truely believe this to be a too simplistic view on last Sunday.
I think a beating like this was coming. Waterfords style of play is based on workrate, pressure and suffication of the oppositions attack.
In the league this will work very well as other teams do not appear to be as far along in preparation, and are building to peak further in the year. We have seen this in the last two years where ye have beaten Kilkenny once and Tipperary twice. But it has to be accepted that these two teams were not as close to peak as what Waterford are in their previous league campaigns. They aim to peak for championship, Waterford aim to keep a level through the year. The wins this year in the league against Kilkenny still in holiday mode and Tipperary forming their game plan have made people believe they are top 3. I had them in a slightly distant third, but I see now the faults I saw were present are actually easier exposed as I had thought.
Waterford are a better side than Clare at the moment, because they operate a more effective gameplan and match/beat Clare in workrate. What has been shown these last two years is that when they meet the top 2, KK and Tipp, and are matched with workrate their system of play does not stand up against that of Tipps or Kilkennys. They were out thought in last years Munster, out thought and out fought in last years AI semi. This year they were out thought and out fought in the Munster final.

I have seen comments about this as a one off, we'll never be as bad, we'll never hit as many wides, we'll never score as little again. I call BS on that too. The first league final showing was as poor as last Sunday. the AI semi last year was poor. wide counts rise when Waterfords long range shots are put under pressure. In the league its less apparent. There is no real goal threat. This team didnt 'not show up', they weren't allowed to!

The game plan has to evolve. I really expected it to this year. I expected the defensive system to be sorted and focus to turn to developing the attach. But it hasn't moved an inch. And because it hasn't move or progressed other teams have found it out. Last week was the culmination of this. Against a quality side, playing with a full attack and a solid defence, it was men against boys. I fear for the semi final against KK, assuming too much in the tank for Wexford. i fear because it will be KK in an AI semi with another year of experience against the same Waterford game plan as always. It could be a repeat of last Sunday if they style isnt changed.

I felt so sorry for Derek McGrath during that post match interview. He took full responsibility, fair play for that and he was close to tears. But he has to evolve and let the team evolve into something greater.

I also think by saying Waterford under performed does not do Tipp justice. I think people in most counties, myself included we're green with envy watching them Sunday. Talk of Cork not showing, followed by Limerick not showing and now Waterford didnt show, BS again, the primary reason they're winning these games and with such ease is simply a good squad, playing as a team and playing a traditional swashbuckling style with confidence in eachother.

We need more of that and Waterford and Galway need to be the ones to cast off the shackles and go for it. Limerick have wasted the last 2 seasons, Cork are no hopers at the moment. Wexford try but lack overall quality at the moment. Clare are over hyped and Dublin are weakening.

I hope this team proves me wrong over the next two days out, I truelly do. If heels are dug in in the Waterford management, I just cant see it happening.

waterford28

Any word on our u21 team?

buck65

letsseehere14 wrote: »

Just my thoughts on last week, from a neutral position. I'm commenting here becasue I truelly want there to be greater competition in the Championship and Waterford along with Galway are best placed to provide that. But not Waterford in their current state.

I see a lot of people here dismissing this as a once off, lax performance and it wont happen again. I truely believe this to be a too simplistic view on last Sunday.
I think a beating like this was coming. Waterfords style of play is based on workrate, pressure and suffication of the oppositions attack.
In the league this will work very well as other teams do not appear to be as far along in preparation, and are building to peak further in the year. We have seen this in the last two years where ye have beaten Kilkenny once and Tipperary twice. But it has to be accepted that these two teams were not as close to peak as what Waterford are in their previous league campaigns. They aim to peak for championship, Waterford aim to keep a level through the year. The wins this year in the league against Kilkenny still in holiday mode and Tipperary forming their game plan have made people believe they are top 3. I had them in a slightly distant third, but I see now the faults I saw were present are actually easier exposed as I had thought.
Waterford are a better side than Clare at the moment, because they operate a more effective gameplan and match/beat Clare in workrate. What has been shown these last two years is that when they meet the top 2, KK and Tipp, and are matched with workrate their system of play does not stand up against that of Tipps or Kilkennys. They were out thought in last years Munster, out thought and out fought in last years AI semi. This year they were out thought and out fought in the Munster final.

I have seen comments about this as a one off, we'll never be as bad, we'll never hit as many wides, we'll never score as little again. I call BS on that too. The first league final showing was as poor as last Sunday. the AI semi last year was poor. wide counts rise when Waterfords long range shots are put under pressure. In the league its less apparent. There is no real goal threat. This team didnt 'not show up', they weren't allowed to!

The game plan has to evolve. I really expected it to this year. I expected the defensive system to be sorted and focus to turn to developing the attach. But it hasn't moved an inch. And because it hasn't move or progressed other teams have found it out. Last week was the culmination of this. Against a quality side, playing with a full attack and a solid defence, it was men against boys. I fear for the semi final against KK, assuming too much in the tank for Wexford. i fear because it will be KK in an AI semi with another year of experience against the same Waterford game plan as always. It could be a repeat of last Sunday if they style isnt changed.

I felt so sorry for Derek McGrath during that post match interview. He took full responsibility, fair play for that and he was close to tears. But he has to evolve and let the team evolve into something greater.

I also think by saying Waterford under performed does not do Tipp justice. I think people in most counties, myself included we're green with envy watching them Sunday. Talk of Cork not showing, followed by Limerick not showing and now Waterford didnt show, BS again, the primary reason they're winning these games and with such ease is simply a good squad, playing as a team and playing a traditional swashbuckling style with confidence in eachother.

We need more of that and Waterford and Galway need to be the ones to cast off the shackles and go for it. Limerick have wasted the last 2 seasons, Cork are no hopers at the moment. Wexford try but lack overall quality at the moment. Clare are over hyped and Dublin are weakening.

I hope this team proves me wrong over the next two days out, I truelly do. If heels are dug in in the Waterford management, I just cant see it happening.

This is the Clare that have actually won an All Ireland with basically the same squad that are there now? That won 3 back to back U21 Munster and All Ireland titles upto 2015 and were still strong enough to knock out a highly fancied Waterford U21 team last year? And won a senior league final to boot for the first time in nearly 30 years.
Tipp are also far from the finished article as are Galway, Waterford for me are still a good team who will beat Wexford and rattle whoever in the semi final. It was a bad day at the office.

Bonniedog

Truth is that Waterford, Limerick, Dublin, Cork are nowhere near being able to beat Cats or Tipp on a going day. That's the simple truth of the matter and the nonsensical "systems" they are addicted to are no addition.

English called it rightly on Saturday night. Limerick 5 points behind and two men inside Clare 40. What's the fkn point boys? Waterford were same and Dublin were same against the Cats. might as well stay at home.

waterford28

U21 Team Announced

1. Jordan Henley
2. Willie Hahessy
3. Conor Gleeson
4. Darragh Lyons
5. Micheal Harney
6. Austin Gleeson
7. Conor Prunty
8. Mark O Brien
9. Colm Roche
10. Darren Foran
11. Tom Devine
12. Mikey Kearney
13. Patrick Curran
14. Shane Bennett
15. Steven Bennett

mountgomery burns

2003 is the last time clare beat Tipp or Kilkenny in championship, I think you have omitted them from your list.

PTH2009

waterford28 wrote: »

U21 Team Announced

1. Jordan Henley
2. Willie Hahessy
3. Conor Gleeson
4. Darragh Lyons
5. Micheal Harney
6. Austin Gleeson
7. Conor Prunty
8. Mark O Brien
9. Colm Roche
10. Darren Foran
11. Tom Devine
12. Mikey Kearney
13. Patrick Curran
14. Shane Bennett
15. Steven Bennett

Good team on paper. Full forward line very strong, the only worry is the full back line is lacking star players as with the midfield. Hopefully the senior lads have forgotten about Sunday and will want to prove a point 2morrow night.

We really need a win 2morrow night **** or bust for us regarding this grade for us (this is the strongest group we will have for the next few years). Management team dis year looks and hopefully is the real deal. 2morrow night could define the future of Waterford hurling

letsseehere14

buck65 wrote:

This is the Clare that have actually won an All Ireland with basically the same squad that are there now? That won 3 back to back U21 Munster and All Ireland titles upto 2015 and were still strong enough to knock out a highly fancied Waterford U21 team last year? And won a senior league final to boot for the first time in nearly 30 years. Tipp are also far from the finished article as are Galway, Waterford for me are still a good team who will beat Wexford and rattle whoever in the semi final. It was a bad day at the office.

Yes it is the same Clare. The same Clare who were easily second best to Waterford in all 3 matches this year despite winning the league. The same Clare who we're relegated from 1a in 2015. The same Clare who were unimpressive against us in the league and blessed against Tipp, both played in Ennis. The same Clare who have hardly won a Munster championship match for 20 years. The same Clare who were knocked out meekly the last two seasons by 2 poor sides losing to Cork twice and Wexford in the 2014 and 2015 seasons. If Clare are so good then Cork must be exceptional? They couldn't even beat Wexford in Ennis.
U21 does not translate into senior success. 2013 was an outlier, thats undeniable, where they didnt have to play the big two. Not their fault but still fact. Dublin, Cork and Clares performances in the Championship over the last 3 seasons (2016 included to date) showed that Clare cannot he counted as genuine contenders until the actually show it again on the field. This is their 3rd year running where they have not as yet.
They're better than Limerick, Dublin at the moment. Probably better than Cork this year, not last year or the year before. Christ the only bet Cork after a replay in 2013.
They have the individual players to be challengers. They have the potential but they have not shown it over the 2014, 2015 and so far this year. Don't put so much weight on league wins.

mickmackmcgoo

That's a good under 21 side in fairness. All Waterford hurling people need to turn out and support these lads and give them a lift

danganabu

jaykay74 wrote: »

It wasn't the system that hit ten wides in the first half.

It most certainly was as a direct result of the system, any team playing that formation is forced to take pot shots from out the field.

O Riain wrote: »

Don't think the system can be blamed too much to be fair. Derek himself said we lined out fairly conventional for about half the game .

He was at a different game than the rest of us so.

carq wrote: »

As an aside, the Ref had a poor game i thought - Missing a dirty pull on gleeson in first half, Penalty was very dubious, Gives waterford advantage for a foul but does not call it back, same happens to tipp he calls it back for a free. Soft frees for tipp too in first half which kept them in it against the wind.

Cathal Barrett pulled back on Gleeson and it was missed you are correct, but that is the same Gleeson who should absolutely have already been red-carded along with SOK. Gavin hasn't a clue how to play the advantage rule and you are being very selective with you're memory, one that stood out for me was Michael Breen coming out with a ball, looses the hurl, ref plays advantage and Breen kicks the ball out over the sideline, no free given.

Which free in the first half was soft?

Whiplash85

danganabu wrote: »

It most certainly was as a direct result of the system, any team playing that formation is forced to take pot shots from out the field.



He was at a different game than the rest of us so.



Cathal Barrett pulled back on Gleeson and it was missed you are correct, but that is the same Gleeson who should absolutely have already been red-carded along with SOK. Gavin hasn't a clue how to play the advantage rule and you are being very selective with you're memory, one that stood out for me was Michael Breen coming out with a ball, looses the hurl, ref plays advantage and Breen kicks the ball out over the sideline, no free given.

Which free in the first half was soft?

That guy is deluded and obviously knows nothing about hurling. I wouldn't bother responding. Gavin dished out 3 yellow cards to Tipp players in the first half for indisrections which when perpretated by Waterford players (worse in some cases) did not yield the same sanction. He also gave what can only be called 2 phantom frees to Waterford when Gleeson slipped when in the vicinity of Cathal Barrett. Another was a ruck of 5 or 6 players from both sides and resulted in another free in front of the posts. We failed to get a stone wall penalty in the first half in the incident where the Fives brothers ended up clearing the ball off the line. Gavin is a shockingly bad referee and cannot keep up with the play. Tommy Walsh belted him accross the face in an AI one year which also seemed to escape Gavins attention. I believe the bould Tommys jersey adorns Brians Mantle piece now. If it was a choice between Diarmuid Kirwan or Brian Gavin to referee a potential Tipp Kilkenny All Ireland I'd leave Brian Cody ref it.

DARREN2016

The blue blaa wrote: »

Not doubting the lads potential but he was certainly not an outstanding minor, the club pulled out of the minor A after 2 maybe 3 games he was always in the shadow of Aaron Sullivan & Eoghan Murray. He done Okay for the county minor team for the two years he was involved.
He has potential but what i am sayin is he shouldn't be starting in our U21 team given what forwards we have at our disposal.

He has another 2 yrs after this year to play u21 so lets not build him up to something hes not yet ready to be,
we seem to do that with a lot of young lads.

He was undoubtedly an outstanding minor. If memory serves me right he got Man of the match in the drawn munster final of 2014 against Limerick with players such as Patrick Curran, Shane Bennett, Conor Gleeson and also Tom Morrissey, Cian and Ronan Lynch all of whom are regulars for the Limerick senior team playing the same match.

seananigans

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/derek-mcgrath-would-be-foolish-to-change-after-one-bad-day-409618.html

Derek McGrath would be foolish to change after one bad day

Bonniedog

seananigans wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/derek-mcgrath-would-be-foolish-to-change-after-one-bad-day-409618.html

Derek McGrath would be foolish to change after one bad day

"One bad day"

blackcard

Derek McGrath spent three years working on the "system" because Waterford were conceding too many goals. Waterford have good players. Why not spend three years on teaching backs to be the best defenders they can be and teaching forwards on being the best attackers they can be. Seems less complicated.

seananigans

blackcard wrote: »

Derek McGrath spent three years working on the "system" because Waterford were conceding too many goals. Waterford have good players. Why not spend three years on teaching backs to be the best defenders they can be and teaching forwards on being the best attackers they can be. Seems less complicated.

like everyone else? sure we can hand out 12 liam mccarthys so, then everyone will be happy

meathhurler48

Why don't you clear off to the Dublin thread or the Paddy Power app. We don't need your cynical comments on this thread.

meathhurler48

Directed at Bonniedog.

blackcard

seananigans wrote: »

like everyone else? sure we can hand out 12 liam mccarthys so, then everyone will be happy

Because they don't have players as good as Waterford have