Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

cul beag

Can't see too many changes for Sunday maybe Stephen Bennett replacing his brother and maybe Conor Gleeson coming in to the fullback line. If anything I think we will set up even more defensively if his post match comments were to be interpreted properly the last day.
How the likes of Gavin O Brien,Shane McNulty,the 2 Roches(especially Shane) stay focused is beyond me as surely deep down they know they won't see much if any game time year in year out. They must be get so frustrated especially if there aren't changes made for Sunday,I would imagine whatever words are used to coax them along will have little impact. I would say that's why Pádraig Prendergast left the panel aswell earlier in the year. For the above mentioned players that have been on the periphery of the squad for some time surely they'll be questioning themselves at the end of the season as going on familiar lines McGrath will freshen up the panel with young blood again making their jobs even harder again to succeed. If we are to win an All Ireland these squad players are vital for training purposes but realistically if you're not on the match day 24 you might aswell be up in Hill 16 with the rest of the supporters! Gavin has seen the Bennetts,Curran,Dunford,both Glesson's come in after him and progress ahead of him so how he stays committed and focused is a credit to the fella because he must be so frustrated deep down. The same can be said I suppose for 8-9 more of the squad.

Deise_2012

Robopaddy, That was a bad performance. The backs have been a steady unit since February 2015. Did Cody make many changes to his backline after the Clare league match?

blueflame

I think it is very unfair making a statement that Gavin O'Brine and Shane Nullity are not good enough until they have been given a fair chance. Over the years i have heard the exact same comments levied against the likes of Shane Fives, Barry Coughlan, Philip Mahony and all of them when given the chance have proven their worth.

One of the big issues i have had with Derek is when he makes changes of a game he tend to make sweeping change putting in 5 or 6 guys with the prospect of "go and show me what you can do" - At this level putting 5/6 changes into a team all at once is asking for trouble and not giving individuals a chance to impress as part of a reasonably settled team.

Take the Galway League match this year, we were abysmal the previous week against Dublin and had gotten well turned over by them. Derek made sweeping changes the following week against a Galway side fighting for survival and the lads who were given a chance turned up and put in a strong display, but the following week i don't think one of them held their place in the side, and normal service returned. One has to ask them what are panel players supposed to do, they have trained hard, they have put their lives on hold and when called upon had done what was expected.

If we keep doing what we are doing, players on the fringes will be lost and player on the pitch will start to feel comfortable, and the competition for places will disappear. Players will go through tough patches and loss of form and i don't believe players who make this commitment will not accept being dropped as long as they are treated fairly and understand that if they are dropped they will get their chance to reclaim a starting position. We need to remember that these lads are not professionals, this is not their job, this is their passion - if you are going to ask them to put their lives on hold, they must be given the opportunity to play. I cannot accept this ting about carrying a panel of 30 players for competitive training matches, it is not fair to ask probably 8 players to make this commitment just to facilitate training for others when it appears that in the eyes of the management they have little or not chance of securing a starting place.

Deise2016

Changes for Sunday I hope

Conor Gleeson into the full back line

Austin to play centre back/around the half back line as he did for U21s

More goalscorers in the forward line. That means Stephen Bennett, Tom Devine and maybe Dunford in at the expense of lads who are not goal threats so possibly Brick and Pauric Mahony to be left out.

Shanahan, Curran and Stephen Bennett to play as a 3 man inside forward line.

We need to not just win but win scoring goals.

To beat KK we will need to score 3 maybe 4 goals so we need to start scoring goals on Sunday.

PTH2009

Deise2016 wrote: »

Changes for Sunday I hope

Conor Gleeson into the full back line

Austin to play centre back/around the half back line as he did for U21s

More goalscorers in the forward line. That means Stephen Bennett, Tom Devine and maybe Dunford in at the expense of lads who are not goal threats so possibly Brick and Pauric Mahony to be left out.

Shanahan, Curran and Stephen Bennett to play as a 3 man inside forward line.

We need to not just win but win scoring goals.

To beat KK we will need to score 3 maybe 4 goals so we need to start scoring goals on Sunday.

We have to beat Wexford before we even think about Kilkenny. Sum Waterford supporters are way too confident about our chances on Sunday. Wexford love playing us, they have nothing to lose, Liam Dunne will have his tactics ready, Lee Chin and Connor McDonald would walk on any team and will both be handfuls for us. We don't handle the favourites tag well (Clare 02, Limerick 07)

A dry sunny day would be good for us but a wet day like the Munster final could be a disaster again

hurler on de ditch

PTH2009 wrote: »

We have to beat Wexford before we even think about Kilkenny. Sum Waterford supporters are way too confident about our chances on Sunday. Wexford love playing us, they have nothing to lose, Liam Dunne will have his tactics ready, Lee Chin and Connor McDonald would walk on any team and will both be handfuls for us. We don't handle the favourites tag well (Clare 02, Limerick 07)

A dry sunny day would be good for us but a wet day like the Munster final could be a disaster again

the wet day did not bother Tipp ,

hurler on de ditch

Deise2016 wrote: »

Changes for Sunday I hope

Conor Gleeson into the full back line

Austin to play centre back/around the half back line as he did for U21s

More goalscorers in the forward line. That means Stephen Bennett, Tom Devine and maybe Dunford in at the expense of lads who are not goal threats so possibly Brick and Pauric Mahony to be left out.

Shanahan, Curran and Stephen Bennett to play as a 3 man inside forward line.

We need to not just win but win scoring goals.

To beat KK we will need to score 3 maybe 4 goals so we need to start scoring goals on Sunday.

add Moran to that list

cul beag

Deise2016 wrote: »

Changes for Sunday I hope

Conor Gleeson into the full back line

Austin to play centre back/around the half back line as he did for U21s

More goalscorers in the forward line. That means Stephen Bennett, Tom Devine and maybe Dunford in at the expense of lads who are not goal threats so possibly Brick and Pauric Mahony to be left out.

Shanahan, Curran and Stephen Bennett to play as a 3 man inside forward line.

We need to not just win but win scoring goals.

To beat KK we will need to score 3 maybe 4 goals so we need to start scoring goals on Sunday.

Can't see Devine starting as he played with UCC last night in the Cork championship. I would imagine if he was starting he wouldn't have been risked but I could be wrong. The same I would imagine goes for Mikey Kearney who played for CIT last night.

JesusRef

Mcgrath will stick to the system or sweeper approach - for it to work we have to inject more pace into the team I would start conor gleeson, Austin gleeson wing forward, Dunford on the other, worms named corner forward but drifting back and his brother Stephen as impact sub.

Harsh but losing out would be noel Connor (off form at th moment, always plays the man now even when the ball is there to be attacked. - a by product of the sweeper system - unfortunately not every inter county forward is hoggie)

Also pauraic mahoney or brick - just need to get more pace in the forwards - the only reason - if you want forwards to do the work of two men then you have to have them be able to cover the ground faster then the two above.

No offence to any of the great servants but I Just think it should against tipp - none of these men can be criticised for hard work or effort but when you are up against speedster corner backs as the spare man - it is very hard to make any impact against them without pace

bruschi

PTH2009 wrote: »

We have to beat Wexford before we even think about Kilkenny. Sum Waterford supporters are way too confident about our chances on Sunday. Wexford love playing us, they have nothing to lose, Liam Dunne will have his tactics ready, Lee Chin and Connor McDonald would walk on any team and will both be handfuls for us. We don't handle the favourites tag well (Clare 02, Limerick 07)

A dry sunny day would be good for us but a wet day like the Munster final could be a disaster again

Wexford '03 and '14

And even '08 we nearly caught ye too! Fitzhenry driving a penalty over the bar with 5 minutes left and only losing by a point then.

JesusRef

bruschi wrote: »

Wexford '03 and '14

And even '08 we nearly caught ye too! Fitzhenry driving a penalty over the bar with 5 minutes left and only losing by a point then.

Wexford basically ripped us a new one in 03

trapp

Tom Devine had a great game for UCC in the Cork Championship at the weekend scoring 1 - 5 from play.

We need to go with the players in form, the players with the pace and eye for goal to worry defences.

At the moment other teams know that if they keep tabs on Shanahan and Curran Waterford won't score a goal.

As others have said we need to go for goals on Sunday, it's goals that will beat Wexford and hopefully Kilkenny.

There are players in our forward line, already named by others, that have never scored a goal for Waterford in the championship and carry no goal threat at all.

We need to play the players with pace and with an eye for goal. That means Stephen Bennett, Tom Devine, Colin Dunford in, or at least two of them and possibly Brick and Mahony not to start.

Nothing against the lads above, great servants for Waterford but I just think we need to freshen things up and we have the players to worry defences in Devine, Curran, Maurice and the Bennetts.

PTH2009

If Sunday was not to end well for us, then McGrath could be in serious trouble, clubs won't stand it, players may get a bit agrivated at the whole thing and it won't do the under 21s any favours going into the Munster final

I say Derek has done enough this year to save his job (very close to retaining the league, getting to a Munster final) for 2017 but there will be agro there over the 'system'

Important 9 days for Waterford Hurling coming up

wats the craic

JesusRef wrote: »

Wexford basically ripped us a new one in 03

jayus that victory in 03 was very sweet indeed . mark my words wexford will not fear waterford in any way , all the pressure will be on ye . sure we are only there to make up the numbers like 03 , oh wait .........

deiseach

If we can somehow squeak past Wexford we should have it easy against Kilkenny, unlike all those times in the past when we wilted under the burden of being favourites.

JesusRef

wats the craic wrote: »

jayus that victory in 03 was very sweet indeed . mark my words wexford will not fear waterford in any way , all the pressure will be on ye . sure we are only there to make up the numbers like 03 , oh wait .........

Nobody fears Waterford

meathhurler48

Cul Beag
Lots of KK guys spend years on their panel waiting for a chance. Look at Prendergast last year. Made his championship debut against ourselves at 29.
I know it's tough but some guys have to stick with it. I think Paidi Prendergast was a big loss to us but probably wasn't going to nail down a starting spot this year.
Anyway whoever plays let's hope that we have too much for Wexford on Sunday.

meathhurler48

bruschi
You still lost! One or twenty will still end a teams season. Anyway we have no beef with each other. Let's enjoy Sunday.

seananigans

deiseach wrote: »

If we can somehow squeak past Wexford we should have it easy against Kilkenny, unlike all those times in the past when we wilted under the burden of being favourites.

the funny thing about records is, the longer they go on the closer they are to being broken, so why not now, why not today most people thinks the longer it goes on the less likely it is when in fact the opposite is true , we are closer than we have ever been to kk and therefore we should setdown a marker against wexford then be looking to topple kk once and for all once we beat em once theres no stopping us and this year is as good as any

meathhurler48

PTH
Did you ever see a glass half full?

IanVW

meathhurler48 wrote: »

PTH
Did you ever see a glass half full?

He has wexford to beat us by 6 in the pools....

Alpha Centauri

Looking forward to Sunday, win or lose lets hope we're in for a treat. The championship hasn't seen a cracker of a game yet... we're due one. I have total faith in the lads to do the business. I hope he leaves 3 up forward.

Anyone know when U21 tickets go on sale?

bruschi

meathhurler48 wrote: »

bruschi
You still lost! One or twenty will still end a teams season. Anyway we have no beef with each other. Let's enjoy Sunday.

but won the other 2. Point being, favorites tags a lot of the time means very little when it comes down to the game.

for what it's worth, I still expect Waterford to win, despite the recent bad result. If that doesnt give McGrath and the squad a kick up the hole, nothing will. It could be a season, or even long term, defining event, one whihc in time people could go back and speak about that day in Limerick and how it changed the mentality for the better.

meathhurler48

Let's hope so.

robopaddy2

Deise_2012 wrote: »

Robopaddy, That was a bad performance. The backs have been a steady unit since February 2015. Did Cody make many changes to his backline after the Clare league match?

Don't know off hand how many changes Cody made after that game. But there is a difference between losing a tight game in a league semi final getting absolutely mauled in a provincial final. Had KK been on the end of our beating there would be heads rolling for sure

robopaddy2

Best 15 of the past 25 years as voted for on wlr

1. SOK, 2 Noel Connors, 3 Sean Cullinane, 4 Eoin Murphy, 5. Tony Browne, 6 Fergal Harrtley, 7. Kevin Moran 8. Stephen Molumphy 9. Brick Walsh 10. Dan 11. Ken 12. Kelly 13. Mullane 14. Mauriice Shanahan 15. Flynn

A lot of people must have short term memories thats all I say

Giveitfong

Waterford’s heavy defeat in the Munster Final came as quite a shock to Waterford’s dumbfounded supporters. The Waterford team which lost by a similar margin in the 2011 final was a shambles of a selection, and the team knew it going out on the field. This year’s team had earned a well-deserved reputation over the last two years as a highly-competitive and skillful outfit with a massive work rate and fighting spirit.

The rubbish spewed out in the aftermath of the game from a wide range of so-called “pundits” says more about their knowledge of hurling than it does about the Waterford team. Clearly last week’s outcome was freakish and, I believe, very unlikely to happen again. At the same time, something obviously went wrong and we need to know what it was.

While playing nowhere near their potential, Waterford were clearly the better team in the first half during which they had 19 shots at goal compared to 12 for Tipperary. However, while their shooting early on was good, their failure to score between the 14th and 35th minute really killed them. During this period they had ten bad misses – three in the 19th minute alone. Had they converted even half of these and not conceded a very soft goal they would have been six points up at half time, which would have given them something to fight for and put some pressure on Tipperary.

In the second half, Tipperary had a simple tactic – play long ball into the Waterford goal area and hope to get enough good ball from this to get a winning score. They bunched four or five forwards in the D outside the large Waterford square and as the ball arrived one forward went up for the ball and the others fanned out hoping for a break. This tactic worked well beyond their expectations due to a combination of good play on their part, poor defending by Waterford (especially bunching and poor match-ups in challenging for incoming ball), and good luck. For example, for their fifth goal, the incoming ball bounced sideways off somebody’s helmet straight into the path of Seamus Callanan who duly finished to the net.

Waterford actually won a lot of ball in the second half. Despite playing into the strong wind and being forced to hit long puckouts due to the Tipperary full forwards pushing up on the Waterford full backs, Waterford won half of their own long puckouts. However, their use of the ball was very poor, either playing it in to double-marked forwards or giving the ball away altogether.

Tipperary were up for a battle in what were very difficult conditions, and Waterford needed to be prepared to at least match this. However, compared with their normal level of performance, Waterford were very flat, lacking in drive and focus. At half time on the Sunday Game, Ger Loughnane remarked that Waterford were “mentally slow”. They were also physically inferior on the day. I counted 13 cases of Waterford players losing possession under pressure (i.e. turnovers) compared with just one for Tipperary. I also counted 19 cases of Waterford giving the ball away to unmarked Tipperary players, either due to playing the ball under pressure or poor shot selection.

There are a lot of stories going around about the Waterford panel being subjected to a very demanding programme of preparation for the Munster Final. I have heard of six training sessions in the week before the week of the Final, of workouts in Colligan Wood and of players waking up extremely tired facing into the day’s work. If these stories are true it raises serious questions about the team’s management. This is the kind of work you do in February and March, with the focus on developing explosive force in the summer months.

This would certainly provide an explanation for Waterford’s flat performance last week. It is also possible that, with most media pundits predicting a Waterford win, and with their own supporters more confident than I have ever seen them before, the team may have gone into the game in more relaxed mood than was warranted.

Of course, there is no guarantee that if Waterford had gone into the game really “up for it”, they would have prevailed against a Tipperary outfit which brought massive focus, determination and physicality to bear in addition to their high skill levels. One wonders in particular if Waterford need to be more flexible in terms of adapting to prevailing physical conditions. The wet conditions alone called for a more direct style of play, all the more so with the very strong wind at their back in the first half. With Maurice Shanahan at full forward and Patrick Curran and Shane Bennett on either side of him, who knows what would have happened if Waterford had adopted the tactics which Tipperary employed in the second half.

In the longer run, questions have to asked about the over-defensive nature of Waterford’s playing formation. This is more about the tactic of flooding midfield and leaving very few forwards up front than it is about using a sweeper (a lot of so-called pundits are unable to make this distinction). On the Sunday Game, both Ger Loughnane and Henry Shefflin were critical of this aspect of the Waterford setup, with Shefflin insisting that you need to be more courageous in order to win championships. Derek McGrath has pointed to Waterford’s good scoring rate over the last two years, but there is evidence that this doesn’t work against the better teams. Waterford only scored 16 points in last year’s Munster Final and only 18 against Kilkenny in the All-Ireland Semi-final.

I am inclined to see Derek McGrath’s approach as very similar to that of Jack Charlton when he was in charge of the Irish soccer team. Charlton’s strategy was based on stopping the opposition from scoring, and in this he was very successful. However, when it comes to World Cup and Euro finals, you need more than this. Charlon had an exceptional group of talented players available to him, and I always thought that he could have made better use of them.

Charlton, of course, played for Leeds, a team that was very good at winning leagues but hopeless at winning cups. They ground out their weekly away draws and home wins, but when it came to the bit of magic needed when games had to be won, they were found wanting.
I see a lot of parallels with the current Waterford setup. Waterford currently have upcoming strike forwards with great potential in Patrick Curran and the two Bennetts. Yet, just as Jack Charlton had John Aldridge wearing his feet to stumps (his own words) chasing long balls into the corners, last year Derek McGrath had Stephen Bennett operating far from goal playing a poorly-defined and thankless role. Similarly, Shane Bennett is wandering around the field hoping the ball will come his way.

We all know what Patrick Curran and Stephen Bennett are capable of close to goal, and we saw further evidence of it last Wednesday in Walsh Park. I have no problem with Waterford continuing to operate a sweeper. Most counties do it and in Tadhg de Búrca we have the best in the business. But I think we should plant Stephen Bennett and Patrick Curran close to goal and concentrate on delivering good early ball into them. In three plays they could do more damage than six players spending an hour fighting for ruck ball in the midfield area.

On the basis of recent games I am also coming around to the idea of locating Austin Gleeson at centre back. I don’t think the current practice of moving him around makes adequate use of his prodigious talent. I’m not normally a fan of Ger Loughnane, but on that Sunday Game programme he spoke a lot of sense. Of Austin Gleeson he said “he doesn’t know where he is playing and what he is doing.” I accept that the Clare Under-21 team are not the best measuring rod, but Gleeson looked very comfortable and imperious in a fixed half back position last Wednesday night. We need to get him to focus more on delivering early ball to the full forwards rather than running with it, but with Tadhg de Búrca filling in behind him, I would give him his head.

Finally, in relation to de Búrca, a writer in one of the Sunday papers said that a key factor in Tipperary’s win in the Munster Final is that they put men in on de Búrca, thereby stifling him. I have watched a recording of the game several times. De Búrca got possession a lot more than any other player, and I did not note even one occasion where he was stopped, dispossessed or blocked by his markers, while his use of the ball was frequently very good. He was not as good under the high ball as he normally is, but he was still easily Waterford’s best player on the day.

Cake Man

Ah looking at that 15 I think it seems fair enough tbh. I can't really think of any glaring omissions. Possibly a toss up between Noel Connors and Tom Feeney who was a great servant to us, for the corner back spot. Other few names to be unlucky to lose out IMO would be Stephen Frampton, Peter Quelly and Dave Bennett.

It can be a little difficult to judge as well as realistically from 1991 - 1997 we weren't up to much and up to 2002 it was a case of one loss and the summer is over which we experienced nearly every year. In that time, we've had a good few fellas who did reasonably well but not to the point that they'd justifiably be included in that 15. I'm thinking the likes of Anthony Kirwan, Growler Daly, Brian Greene, Brian Flannery, Brian Phelan, Johnny Brenner.

I don't think you could include any of the current team as so many of them are fairly new to the scene. Maybe in a few years the likes of Bennetts, Fives', Barron and Mahony's will make that selection much more difficult. It's no coincidence that it's mostly filled with more recent lads as this coincides with our most successful years in the last 10-15 years.

Cake Man

Giveitfong wrote: »

Munster final analysis

Excellent and insightful post as always Giveitfong, how would you think we should set up and change (if any) for Sunday?


I'm not too mad about the idea of wholesale changes like many here are hoping for. Yes the last day was an unmitigated disaster but I think making a raft of changes just smacks of a knee jerk reaction and hitting the panic button. If there are to be changes, I think it should only be say Stephen Bennett in for maybe Dunford with an emphasis on being a bit more attack minded.
I can see what many are saying regarding fringe players getting the hump if it's seen as them not getting a chance if others ahead of them are not performing but to be fair, a player should be dropped on the basis of having a run of poor games and not just a once off bad game (especially one in which nobody else played well).

robopaddy2

Cake Man wrote: »

Ah looking at that 15 I think it seems fair enough tbh. I can't really think of any glaring omissions. Possibly a toss up between Noel Connors and Tom Feeney who was a great servant to us, for the corner back spot. Other few names to be unlucky to lose out IMO would be Stephen Frampton, Peter Quelly and Dave Bennett.

It can be a little difficult to judge as well as realistically from 1991 - 1997 we weren't up to much and up to 2002 it was a case of one loss and the summer is over which we experienced nearly every year. In that time, we've had a good few fellas who did reasonably well but not to the point that they'd justifiably be included in that 15. I'm thinking the likes of Anthony Kirwan, Growler Daly, Brian Greene, Brian Flannery, Brian Phelan, Johnny Brenner.

I don't think you could include any of the current team as so many of them are fairly new to the scene. Maybe in a few years the likes of Bennetts, Fives', Barron and Mahony's will make that selection much more difficult. It's no coincidence that it's mostly filled with more recent lads as this coincides with our most successful years in the last 10-15 years.

I don't know how Maurice is in there after basically one good season in the county jersey. Seamus Prendergast is the obvious omission there. He was fantastic for us for the guts of 15 years. If you had to put in any of the current crop based on ability surely it would be Gleeson. Frampton instead of Moran at wing back would be my choice (those of us the remember the lean nineties know what a fantastic player he was for us). Other than that hard to argue. SOK probably deserves no.1 as he has been our most technically gifted keeper for a long time although Clinton Hennessey arguable more consistent.

Dick phelan

He won''t and shouldn't make tons of changes for Sunday, look the Munster Final was shocking but the lads aren't suddenly terrible most of the team should stay the same, We do need more pace in the team and a better goal threat, i'd like to see Stephen Bennett and maybe Dunford come into the team for Brick and Maurice. Can't see Paudi being dropped to important with the frees, Gleeson maybe to come in as well, Hopefully the lads turn up on Sunday, they need to redeem themselves and save the season, a defeat would be a disaster a massive setback, a win while i don't see us beating KK, a SF keeps us as a top 4 team.

cul beag

robopaddy2 wrote: »

I don't know how Maurice is in there after basically one good season in the county jersey. Seamus Prendergast is the obvious omission there. He was fantastic for us for the guts of 15 years. If you had to put in any of the current crop based on ability surely it would be Gleeson. Frampton instead of Moran at wing back would be my choice (those of us the remember the lean nineties know what a fantastic player he was for us). Other than that hard to argue. SOK probably deserves no.1 as he has been our most technically gifted keeper for a long time although Clinton Hennessey arguable more consistent.

All the players that won All Stars have made the selection and that includes Maurice Shanahan. And going by that then they all had to be accommodated in the choosing of the side. Bar Cullinane and Socky the other 13 were award winners so realistically they were never going to leave out any of the All Stars. Safe decision by the judges because can you imagine if it came down to really having to choose between Hartley,Brick and Ken for the centre back spot lets say! I know where my vote would be going! So like all all star selections they accommodated fellas instead of making the hard/right calls.

crottys lake

Giveitfong wrote: »

Waterford’s heavy defeat in the Munster Final came as quite a shock to Waterford’s dumbfounded supporters. The Waterford team which lost by a similar margin in the 2011 final was a shambles of a selection, and the team knew it going out on the field. This year’s team had earned a well-deserved reputation over the last two years as a highly-competitive and skillful outfit with a massive work rate and fighting spirit.

The rubbish spewed out in the aftermath of the game from a wide range of so-called “pundits” says more about their knowledge of hurling than it does about the Waterford team. Clearly last week’s outcome was freakish and, I believe, very unlikely to happen again. At the same time, something obviously went wrong and we need to know what it was.

While playing nowhere near their potential, Waterford were clearly the better team in the first half during which they had 19 shots at goal compared to 12 for Tipperary. However, while their shooting early on was good, their failure to score between the 14th and 35th minute really killed them. During this period they had ten bad misses – three in the 19th minute alone. Had they converted even half of these and not conceded a very soft goal they would have been six points up at half time, which would have given them something to fight for and put some pressure on Tipperary.

In the second half, Tipperary had a simple tactic – play long ball into the Waterford goal area and hope to get enough good ball from this to get a winning score. They bunched four or five forwards in the D outside the large Waterford square and as the ball arrived one forward went up for the ball and the others fanned out hoping for a break. This tactic worked well beyond their expectations due to a combination of good play on their part, poor defending by Waterford (especially bunching and poor match-ups in challenging for incoming ball), and good luck. For example, for their fifth goal, the incoming ball bounced sideways off somebody’s helmet straight into the path of Seamus Callanan who duly finished to the net.

Waterford actually won a lot of ball in the second half. Despite playing into the strong wind and being forced to hit long puckouts due to the Tipperary full forwards pushing up on the Waterford full backs, Waterford won half of their own long puckouts. However, their use of the ball was very poor, either playing it in to double-marked forwards or giving the ball away altogether.

Tipperary were up for a battle in what were very difficult conditions, and Waterford needed to be prepared to at least match this. However, compared with their normal level of performance, Waterford were very flat, lacking in drive and focus. At half time on the Sunday Game, Ger Loughnane remarked that Waterford were “mentally slow”. They were also physically inferior on the day. I counted 13 cases of Waterford players losing possession under pressure (i.e. turnovers) compared with just one for Tipperary. I also counted 19 cases of Waterford giving the ball away to unmarked Tipperary players, either due to playing the ball under pressure or poor shot selection.

There are a lot of stories going around about the Waterford panel being subjected to a very demanding programme of preparation for the Munster Final. I have heard of six training sessions in the week before the week of the Final, of workouts in Colligan Wood and of players waking up extremely tired facing into the day’s work. If these stories are true it raises serious questions about the team’s management. This is the kind of work you do in February and March, with the focus on developing explosive force in the summer months.

This would certainly provide an explanation for Waterford’s flat performance last week. It is also possible that, with most media pundits predicting a Waterford win, and with their own supporters more confident than I have ever seen them before, the team may have gone into the game in more relaxed mood than was warranted.

Of course, there is no guarantee that if Waterford had gone into the game really “up for it”, they would have prevailed against a Tipperary outfit which brought massive focus, determination and physicality to bear in addition to their high skill levels. One wonders in particular if Waterford need to be more flexible in terms of adapting to prevailing physical conditions. The wet conditions alone called for a more direct style of play, all the more so with the very strong wind at their back in the first half. With Maurice Shanahan at full forward and Patrick Curran and Shane Bennett on either side of him, who knows what would have happened if Waterford had adopted the tactics which Tipperary employed in the second half.

In the longer run, questions have to asked about the over-defensive nature of Waterford’s playing formation. This is more about the tactic of flooding midfield and leaving very few forwards up front than it is about using a sweeper (a lot of so-called pundits are unable to make this distinction). On the Sunday Game, both Ger Loughnane and Henry Shefflin were critical of this aspect of the Waterford setup, with Shefflin insisting that you need to be more courageous in order to win championships. Derek McGrath has pointed to Waterford’s good scoring rate over the last two years, but there is evidence that this doesn’t work against the better teams. Waterford only scored 16 points in last year’s Munster Final and only 18 against Kilkenny in the All-Ireland Semi-final.

I am inclined to see Derek McGrath’s approach as very similar to that of Jack Charlton when he was in charge of the Irish soccer team. Charlton’s strategy was based on stopping the opposition from scoring, and in this he was very successful. However, when it comes to World Cup and Euro finals, you need more than this. Charlon had an exceptional group of talented players available to him, and I always thought that he could have made better use of them.

Charlton, of course, played for Leeds, a team that was very good at winning leagues but hopeless at winning cups. They ground out their weekly away draws and home wins, but when it came to the bit of magic needed when games had to be won, they were found wanting.
I see a lot of parallels with the current Waterford setup. Waterford currently have upcoming strike forwards with great potential in Patrick Curran and the two Bennetts. Yet, just as Jack Charlton had John Aldridge wearing his feet to stumps (his own words) chasing long balls into the corners, last year Derek McGrath had Stephen Bennett operating far from goal playing a poorly-defined and thankless role. Similarly, Shane Bennett is wandering around the field hoping the ball will come his way.

We all know what Patrick Curran and Stephen Bennett are capable of close to goal, and we saw further evidence of it last Wednesday in Walsh Park. I have no problem with Waterford continuing to operate a sweeper. Most counties do it and in Tadhg de Búrca we have the best in the business. But I think we should plant Stephen Bennett and Patrick Curran close to goal and concentrate on delivering good early ball into them. In three plays they could do more damage than six players spending an hour fighting for ruck ball in the midfield area.

On the basis of recent games I am also coming around to the idea of locating Austin Gleeson at centre back. I don’t think the current practice of moving him around makes adequate use of his prodigious talent. I’m not normally a fan of Ger Loughnane, but on that Sunday Game programme he spoke a lot of sense. Of Austin Gleeson he said “he doesn’t know where he is playing and what he is doing.” I accept that the Clare Under-21 team are not the best measuring rod, but Gleeson looked very comfortable and imperious in a fixed half back position last Wednesday night. We need to get him to focus more on delivering early ball to the full forwards rather than running with it, but with Tadhg de Búrca filling in behind him, I would give him his head.

Finally, in relation to de Búrca, a writer in one of the Sunday papers said that a key factor in Tipperary’s win in the Munster Final is that they put men in on de Búrca, thereby stifling him. I have watched a recording of the game several times. De Búrca got possession a lot more than any other player, and I did not note even one occasion where he was stopped, dispossessed or blocked by his markers, while his use of the ball was frequently very good. He was not as good under the high ball as he normally is, but he was still easily Waterford’s best player on the day.

You got it absolutely spot on there Giveitfong with that analysis. I posted before that match about how I thought Stephen Bennett should be playing and I have no doubt but that he is our best chance of goals if left near the square and not asked to do the impossible like last year. It was no surprise to me at all what he did in the under 21 match and I have to say the 11/4 with Paddy Power to be an anytime goalscorer was a gift from God. I maintain that Bennett is an outstanding forward and would start on my team no matter the circumstances.

I also agree with your point about Aussie. He would be best at wing forward in my opinion but that is a role that needs discipline nowadays and am not too sure that the young man is ready for that yet. He needs a one dimensional task where he cannot wander too much and perhaps on Sunday they might consider him for a man marking job on Lee Chin which would mean he would basically be our centre back and it would also give him a small licence to push forward and pick off some long range points, much like Ken used to do. It would also nullify Chin who many see as Wexford's biggest threat.

It is too late to change our 'system' if we have one anyway. We might need to adapt our tactics ever so slightly if anything. I agree with you about the so called 'sweeper' set up. Every team is employing tactics in one way or another and we should keep our shape for this game. I would expect Tadhg to do very well on Sunday and help Barry and co to keep a lid on McDonald. I think Wexford will follow the Tipperary route and go straight down the middle for our jugular. I think we will be ready this time and rather than playing into their hands instead they might play into ours.

Roll on Sunday.

cornerboy

Its not the first time we froze in a major final.

hurler on de ditch

Giveitfong wrote: »

Waterford’s heavy defeat in the Munster Final came as quite a shock to Waterford’s dumbfounded supporters. The Waterford team which lost by a similar margin in the 2011 final was a shambles of a selection, and the team knew it going out on the field. This year’s team had earned a well-deserved reputation over the last two years as a highly-competitive and skillful outfit with a massive work rate and fighting spirit.

The rubbish spewed out in the aftermath of the game from a wide range of so-called “pundits” says more about their knowledge of hurling than it does about the Waterford team. Clearly last week’s outcome was freakish and, I believe, very unlikely to happen again. At the same time, something obviously went wrong and we need to know what it was.

While playing nowhere near their potential, Waterford were clearly the better team in the first half during which they had 19 shots at goal compared to 12 for Tipperary. However, while their shooting early on was good, their failure to score between the 14th and 35th minute really killed them. During this period they had ten bad misses – three in the 19th minute alone. Had they converted even half of these and not conceded a very soft goal they would have been six points up at half time, which would have given them something to fight for and put some pressure on Tipperary.

In the second half, Tipperary had a simple tactic – play long ball into the Waterford goal area and hope to get enough good ball from this to get a winning score. They bunched four or five forwards in the D outside the large Waterford square and as the ball arrived one forward went up for the ball and the others fanned out hoping for a break. This tactic worked well beyond their expectations due to a combination of good play on their part, poor defending by Waterford (especially bunching and poor match-ups in challenging for incoming ball), and good luck. For example, for their fifth goal, the incoming ball bounced sideways off somebody’s helmet straight into the path of Seamus Callanan who duly finished to the net.

Waterford actually won a lot of ball in the second half. Despite playing into the strong wind and being forced to hit long puckouts due to the Tipperary full forwards pushing up on the Waterford full backs, Waterford won half of their own long puckouts. However, their use of the ball was very poor, either playing it in to double-marked forwards or giving the ball away altogether.

Tipperary were up for a battle in what were very difficult conditions, and Waterford needed to be prepared to at least match this. However, compared with their normal level of performance, Waterford were very flat, lacking in drive and focus. At half time on the Sunday Game, Ger Loughnane remarked that Waterford were “mentally slow”. They were also physically inferior on the day. I counted 13 cases of Waterford players losing possession under pressure (i.e. turnovers) compared with just one for Tipperary. I also counted 19 cases of Waterford giving the ball away to unmarked Tipperary players, either due to playing the ball under pressure or poor shot selection.

There are a lot of stories going around about the Waterford panel being subjected to a very demanding programme of preparation for the Munster Final. I have heard of six training sessions in the week before the week of the Final, of workouts in Colligan Wood and of players waking up extremely tired facing into the day’s work. If these stories are true it raises serious questions about the team’s management. This is the kind of work you do in February and March, with the focus on developing explosive force in the summer months.

This would certainly provide an explanation for Waterford’s flat performance last week. It is also possible that, with most media pundits predicting a Waterford win, and with their own supporters more confident than I have ever seen them before, the team may have gone into the game in more relaxed mood than was warranted.

Of course, there is no guarantee that if Waterford had gone into the game really “up for it”, they would have prevailed against a Tipperary outfit which brought massive focus, determination and physicality to bear in addition to their high skill levels. One wonders in particular if Waterford need to be more flexible in terms of adapting to prevailing physical conditions. The wet conditions alone called for a more direct style of play, all the more so with the very strong wind at their back in the first half. With Maurice Shanahan at full forward and Patrick Curran and Shane Bennett on either side of him, who knows what would have happened if Waterford had adopted the tactics which Tipperary employed in the second half.

In the longer run, questions have to asked about the over-defensive nature of Waterford’s playing formation. This is more about the tactic of flooding midfield and leaving very few forwards up front than it is about using a sweeper (a lot of so-called pundits are unable to make this distinction). On the Sunday Game, both Ger Loughnane and Henry Shefflin were critical of this aspect of the Waterford setup, with Shefflin insisting that you need to be more courageous in order to win championships. Derek McGrath has pointed to Waterford’s good scoring rate over the last two years, but there is evidence that this doesn’t work against the better teams. Waterford only scored 16 points in last year’s Munster Final and only 18 against Kilkenny in the All-Ireland Semi-final.

I am inclined to see Derek McGrath’s approach as very similar to that of Jack Charlton when he was in charge of the Irish soccer team. Charlton’s strategy was based on stopping the opposition from scoring, and in this he was very successful. However, when it comes to World Cup and Euro finals, you need more than this. Charlon had an exceptional group of talented players available to him, and I always thought that he could have made better use of them.

Charlton, of course, played for Leeds, a team that was very good at winning leagues but hopeless at winning cups. They ground out their weekly away draws and home wins, but when it came to the bit of magic needed when games had to be won, they were found wanting.
I see a lot of parallels with the current Waterford setup. Waterford currently have upcoming strike forwards with great potential in Patrick Curran and the two Bennetts. Yet, just as Jack Charlton had John Aldridge wearing his feet to stumps (his own words) chasing long balls into the corners, last year Derek McGrath had Stephen Bennett operating far from goal playing a poorly-defined and thankless role. Similarly, Shane Bennett is wandering around the field hoping the ball will come his way.

We all know what Patrick Curran and Stephen Bennett are capable of close to goal, and we saw further evidence of it last Wednesday in Walsh Park. I have no problem with Waterford continuing to operate a sweeper. Most counties do it and in Tadhg de Búrca we have the best in the business. But I think we should plant Stephen Bennett and Patrick Curran close to goal and concentrate on delivering good early ball into them. In three plays they could do more damage than six players spending an hour fighting for ruck ball in the midfield area.

On the basis of recent games I am also coming around to the idea of locating Austin Gleeson at centre back. I don’t think the current practice of moving him around makes adequate use of his prodigious talent. I’m not normally a fan of Ger Loughnane, but on that Sunday Game programme he spoke a lot of sense. Of Austin Gleeson he said “he doesn’t know where he is playing and what he is doing.” I accept that the Clare Under-21 team are not the best measuring rod, but Gleeson looked very comfortable and imperious in a fixed half back position last Wednesday night. We need to get him to focus more on delivering early ball to the full forwards rather than running with it, but with Tadhg de Búrca filling in behind him, I would give him his head.

Finally, in relation to de Búrca, a writer in one of the Sunday papers said that a key factor in Tipperary’s win in the Munster Final is that they put men in on de Búrca, thereby stifling him. I have watched a recording of the game several times. De Búrca got possession a lot more than any other player, and I did not note even one occasion where he was stopped, dispossessed or blocked by his markers, while his use of the ball was frequently very good. He was not as good under the high ball as he normally is, but he was still easily Waterford’s best player on the day.

crikey' very long winded ,nothing that has not being said from all the posters here ,but your final paragraph kind of summed it up ,in your praise for TDB,i would,like most Waterford supporters would love to see him perform better ,he has one of the handiest jobs on the team,being a spare man,and yes he got his hands on quite a bit of ball sweeping up,but his performance against a direct opponent was woeful to say the least,if you can remember or have it recorded,have a look again,he was totally cleaned out ,im not sure he actually won ONE ball in a 50/50 ,NOT ONE!,feel free to correct me if im wrong ,but hey ,what would i know!

cul beag

Id be expecting a backlash from us on Sunday. I don't think we will ever be as bad again although I do think it will be dour to watch again as I have a feeling we will be even extra defensive going by his comments the last day. I hope I'm wrong on that front but I doubt I will be. Waterford by 7-8pts

Dick phelan

Waterford by 3-4 points for me.

Gardner

robopaddy2 wrote: »

Best 15 of the past 25 years as voted for on wlr

1. SOK, 2 Noel Connors, 3 Sean Cullinane, 4 Eoin Murphy, 5. Tony Browne, 6 Fergal Harrtley, 7. Kevin Moran 8. Stephen Molumphy 9. Brick Walsh 10. Dan 11. Ken 12. Kelly 13. Mullane 14. Mauriice Shanahan 15. Flynn

A lot of people must have short term memories thats all I say

Would have Damien Byrne ahead of Cullinane anyday. The fact that Cullinane couldn't dislodge him from the full back position until he retired vs Tipp in 96 speaks volumes.

McCarthy asked him to come back in 98 to play full forward and a discussion I had with Gerald recently he simply said i "magine bugs vs Pat o Neill as Anthony was a good player but lacked that bit guts" he admitted to me though that was Waterford best chance of winning an all Ireland either under himself or Justin.

EICVD

I loves me county*




* My county isn't Waterford.......

robopaddy2

Dick phelan wrote: »

Waterford by 3-4 points for me.

I reckon so too. In one sense it s not a bad thing going into the game on the back of such a heavy beating. It gives the lads ammunition to come out and fight like dogs and should rid us of any complacency, or the hangover of an agonising close defeat. Our lads will be hurt badly and keen to prove a point. Wexford are always very dangerous and will be on a high after their win over Cork. They ll feel they have a lot less to lose going into the game.

Deise_2012

I know 2 lads who saw the training sessions the week after the Tipp game. The players went down Monday and Tuesday and they were still in shock after the game, also the u21 lads were missing so the training session wasn't in full flow, the Thursday after the u21 game, they went training again, to say they upped the tempo would be an understatement, they absolutely flaked the shi*t out of each other.
They're gonna win Sunday, no doubt about it but I hope they leave Paddy Maurice and Shane/Stephen Bennett inside and let them at it

Clonmel1000

robopaddy2 wrote: »

I reckon so too. In one sense it s not a bad thing going into the game on the back of such a heavy beating. It gives the lads ammunition to come out and fight like dogs and should rid us of any complacency, or the hangover of an agonising close defeat. Our lads will be hurt badly and keen to prove a point. Wexford are always very dangerous and will be on a high after their win over Cork. They ll feel they have a lot less to lose going into the game.

So you reckon losing the Munster final by 21 points to Tipp isn't a bad thing? Jesus!

robopaddy2

Clonmel1000 wrote: »

robopaddy2 wrote: »

I reckon so too. In one sense it s not a bad thing going into the game on the back of such a heavy beating. It gives the lads ammunition to come out and fight like dogs and should rid us of any complacency, or the hangover of an agonising close defeat. Our lads will be hurt badly and keen to prove a point. Wexford are always very dangerous and will be on a high after their win over Cork. They ll feel they have a lot less to lose going into the game.

So you reckon losing the Munster final by 21 points to Tipp isn't a bad thing? Jesus!

As if you don't know what I mean. Smart arse

hurler on de ditch

Clonmel1000 wrote: »

So you reckon losing the Munster final by 21 points to Tipp isn't a bad thing? Jesus!

exactly

Deise189

Tickets on sale now for the U-21 final. Hopefully be a big crowd there. Not often we get to hold a Munster Final! Any one have any idea what the name of the terrace is across from the stand? You have to pick a terrace on tickets.ie. Although I'm sure you could move around on the night.

PTH2009

Deise189 wrote: »

Tickets on sale now for the U-21 final. Hopefully be a big crowd there. Not often we get to hold a Munster Final! Any one have any idea what the name of the terrace is across from the stand? You have to pick a terrace on tickets.ie. Although I'm sure you could move around on the night.

just about to ask that question.

i imagine its the Western Terrace but could easilty be the Eastern Terrace ???. North terrace is the terrace you enter across from the presentation primary school i think ??

sum balls there making of this, for a one stand stadium lol

dishdash

Giveitfong wrote: »

Waterford’s heavy defeat in the Munster Final came as quite a shock to Waterford’s dumbfounded supporters. The Waterford team which lost by a similar margin in the 2011 final was a shambles of a selection, and the team knew it going out on the field. This year’s team had earned a well-deserved reputation over the last two years as a highly-competitive and skillful outfit with a massive work rate and fighting spirit.

The rubbish spewed out in the aftermath of the game from a wide range of so-called “pundits” says more about their knowledge of hurling than it does about the Waterford team. Clearly last week’s outcome was freakish and, I believe, very unlikely to happen again. At the same time, something obviously went wrong and we need to know what it was.

While playing nowhere near their potential, Waterford were clearly the better team in the first half during which they had 19 shots at goal compared to 12 for Tipperary. However, while their shooting early on was good, their failure to score between the 14th and 35th minute really killed them. During this period they had ten bad misses – three in the 19th minute alone. Had they converted even half of these and not conceded a very soft goal they would have been six points up at half time, which would have given them something to fight for and put some pressure on Tipperary.

In the second half, Tipperary had a simple tactic – play long ball into the Waterford goal area and hope to get enough good ball from this to get a winning score. They bunched four or five forwards in the D outside the large Waterford square and as the ball arrived one forward went up for the ball and the others fanned out hoping for a break. This tactic worked well beyond their expectations due to a combination of good play on their part, poor defending by Waterford (especially bunching and poor match-ups in challenging for incoming ball), and good luck. For example, for their fifth goal, the incoming ball bounced sideways off somebody’s helmet straight into the path of Seamus Callanan who duly finished to the net.

Waterford actually won a lot of ball in the second half. Despite playing into the strong wind and being forced to hit long puckouts due to the Tipperary full forwards pushing up on the Waterford full backs, Waterford won half of their own long puckouts. However, their use of the ball was very poor, either playing it in to double-marked forwards or giving the ball away altogether.

Tipperary were up for a battle in what were very difficult conditions, and Waterford needed to be prepared to at least match this. However, compared with their normal level of performance, Waterford were very flat, lacking in drive and focus. At half time on the Sunday Game, Ger Loughnane remarked that Waterford were “mentally slow”. They were also physically inferior on the day. I counted 13 cases of Waterford players losing possession under pressure (i.e. turnovers) compared with just one for Tipperary. I also counted 19 cases of Waterford giving the ball away to unmarked Tipperary players, either due to playing the ball under pressure or poor shot selection.

There are a lot of stories going around about the Waterford panel being subjected to a very demanding programme of preparation for the Munster Final. I have heard of six training sessions in the week before the week of the Final, of workouts in Colligan Wood and of players waking up extremely tired facing into the day’s work. If these stories are true it raises serious questions about the team’s management. This is the kind of work you do in February and March, with the focus on developing explosive force in the summer months.

This would certainly provide an explanation for Waterford’s flat performance last week. It is also possible that, with most media pundits predicting a Waterford win, and with their own supporters more confident than I have ever seen them before, the team may have gone into the game in more relaxed mood than was warranted.

Of course, there is no guarantee that if Waterford had gone into the game really “up for it”, they would have prevailed against a Tipperary outfit which brought massive focus, determination and physicality to bear in addition to their high skill levels. One wonders in particular if Waterford need to be more flexible in terms of adapting to prevailing physical conditions. The wet conditions alone called for a more direct style of play, all the more so with the very strong wind at their back in the first half. With Maurice Shanahan at full forward and Patrick Curran and Shane Bennett on either side of him, who knows what would have happened if Waterford had adopted the tactics which Tipperary employed in the second half.

In the longer run, questions have to asked about the over-defensive nature of Waterford’s playing formation. This is more about the tactic of flooding midfield and leaving very few forwards up front than it is about using a sweeper (a lot of so-called pundits are unable to make this distinction). On the Sunday Game, both Ger Loughnane and Henry Shefflin were critical of this aspect of the Waterford setup, with Shefflin insisting that you need to be more courageous in order to win championships. Derek McGrath has pointed to Waterford’s good scoring rate over the last two years, but there is evidence that this doesn’t work against the better teams. Waterford only scored 16 points in last year’s Munster Final and only 18 against Kilkenny in the All-Ireland Semi-final.

I am inclined to see Derek McGrath’s approach as very similar to that of Jack Charlton when he was in charge of the Irish soccer team. Charlton’s strategy was based on stopping the opposition from scoring, and in this he was very successful. However, when it comes to World Cup and Euro finals, you need more than this. Charlon had an exceptional group of talented players available to him, and I always thought that he could have made better use of them.

Charlton, of course, played for Leeds, a team that was very good at winning leagues but hopeless at winning cups. They ground out their weekly away draws and home wins, but when it came to the bit of magic needed when games had to be won, they were found wanting.
I see a lot of parallels with the current Waterford setup. Waterford currently have upcoming strike forwards with great potential in Patrick Curran and the two Bennetts. Yet, just as Jack Charlton had John Aldridge wearing his feet to stumps (his own words) chasing long balls into the corners, last year Derek McGrath had Stephen Bennett operating far from goal playing a poorly-defined and thankless role. Similarly, Shane Bennett is wandering around the field hoping the ball will come his way.

We all know what Patrick Curran and Stephen Bennett are capable of close to goal, and we saw further evidence of it last Wednesday in Walsh Park. I have no problem with Waterford continuing to operate a sweeper. Most counties do it and in Tadhg de Búrca we have the best in the business. But I think we should plant Stephen Bennett and Patrick Curran close to goal and concentrate on delivering good early ball into them. In three plays they could do more damage than six players spending an hour fighting for ruck ball in the midfield area.

On the basis of recent games I am also coming around to the idea of locating Austin Gleeson at centre back. I don’t think the current practice of moving him around makes adequate use of his prodigious talent. I’m not normally a fan of Ger Loughnane, but on that Sunday Game programme he spoke a lot of sense. Of Austin Gleeson he said “he doesn’t know where he is playing and what he is doing.” I accept that the Clare Under-21 team are not the best measuring rod, but Gleeson looked very comfortable and imperious in a fixed half back position last Wednesday night. We need to get him to focus more on delivering early ball to the full forwards rather than running with it, but with Tadhg de Búrca filling in behind him, I would give him his head.

Finally, in relation to de Búrca, a writer in one of the Sunday papers said that a key factor in Tipperary’s win in the Munster Final is that they put men in on de Búrca, thereby stifling him. I have watched a recording of the game several times. De Búrca got possession a lot more than any other player, and I did not note even one occasion where he was stopped, dispossessed or blocked by his markers, while his use of the ball was frequently very good. He was not as good under the high ball as he normally is, but he was still easily Waterford’s best player on the day.

That's a really great piece of analysis....better than anything I read in the paper, and fairly balanced.
Thanks for posting

Whiplash85

dishdash wrote: »

That's a really great piece of analysis....better than anything I read in the paper, and fairly balanced.
Thanks for posting

To be honest I Think its a pile of drivel. More holes in that analysis than a swiss cheese and massive straw clutching going on.

Where to start.

Tipp being more motivated to win is a weird one. I would have thought that having doled out the mother and father of all eviscerations in 2011 and lost previous 4 times to Tipp that Waterford might have had a motivational angle coming into the game.

Analogies with Jack Charlton. Ireland under Charlton actually won important knock out games. Waterford haven't.

Losing ball under pressure through carrying it and being turned over or hitting it to double marked players. So what is it then? Tipp won because ye are predictable and there is no flexibility to adapt within the Waterford "system".

Incidentally it wasn't a freak occurence as he alluded to. Waterford played with a sweeper in 2011 as well and lost by 21 points. So this is just a case of history repeating itself. Happened numerous times before that as well.

Hitting pot shots and looking at the wide count and using that as a crutch is pathetic as well. Waterford always hit a lot of wides because they dont play the percentages and take shots from out the field. They are NOT good scoring chances.

I cant even be bothered referring to bits about Waterford training 6 times a week and Colligan Woods. Absolute Bull****.

But I agree with his theory that Tipp were lucky on the day. Haha. Do me a favour...

Deise2016

PTH2009 wrote: »

just about to ask that question.

i imagine its the Western Terrace but could easilty be the Eastern Terrace ???. North terrace is the terrace you enter across from the presentation primary school i think ??

sum balls there making of this, for a one stand stadium lol

I'd imagine the bank is the northern terrace.

As for Sunday lads why can't I get tickets in the uncovered section for Sunday?

All that's coming up online is Block 212 in the old stand.

What kind of a crowd will we be looking at.

25,000 max I reckon.

Cake Man

Just out of curiosity to see if there is much of an advantage of being at home at U21 level (statistically speaking), I've considered all Munster U21 results going back as far as 2009, as per the Munster GAA results webpage.


In the 7 years, there have been 31 games played until now and as is the case with U21, there will always be a home/away team. I counted 17 games in which the home team won (55%) and 14 in which the away team won (45%). Some of these games were settled after extra time and counted as a home/away win.
4 of the 17 home victories and 3 of the 14 away victories were in the Munster final.


This would lead me to believe that home advantage isn't hugely significant and as can be seen, 3 of the last 7 Munster final were won by the away team - one of which included Clare beating us at home in 2009. I know 31 probably isn't a massive sample size but given that U21 is pure knockout, it limits the amount of games. Would still happily prefer to be at home in any case.