Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

JeffKenna

tomwaterford wrote: »

I'm living in eternal hope it's a master plan that waterford are building/training all year to peak for a semi-final


After that the well of optimism is empty

Perhaps it is all a master plan. Its the only reason I can think why Devine seems to be so much out of favour...maybe he'll be a surprise start against KK who knows.

mickmackmcgoo

JeffKenna wrote:

Perhaps it is all a master plan. Its the only reason I can think why Devine seems to be so much out of favour...maybe he'll be a surprise start against KK who knows.

Do you really think Devine should be starting. He was completely anonymous for most of the under 21 game against Clare

garv123

Brick started well today with 2 points and then things went back to normal from then on with very little attacking or possession from him. I'd love to see a game without brick and the likes of Bennett, Dunford or o halloran in his place. O halloran got 2 points today and looked threatening. He could do a lot more I'd he got 50-60 minutes.
Bringing Dunford on for 5 minutes is no good. You need him running at defences for a lof more than that.
Jamie Barron is one of the most underrated hurlers in the country. Man of the match today for me. Great performance and good points.

Deise2016

One of the worst ten point wins I can ever remember in hurling.

I know we won and players and management deserve credit for getting the win after what happened against Tipp

But christ above lads....

No life to the game at all

No reason to get off your seat

No excitement, no spark

The game could have gone on for another 70 minutes and we wouldn't have scored a goal

I thought the drawn league final v Clare was bad but that was worse.

No progress from last year.

Still miles behind Tipp and Kilkenny and Galway would beat us too.

Austin Gleeson, Patrick Curran, the Bennetts, Maurice Shanahan, Brian O'Hallorran, Jamie Barron, Colin Dunford, Tom Devine....we have exciting, talented young players but we are a bore to watch

Yes we won but surely in a minority sport like hurling there has to be some sort of loyalty to the game aswell

What use will an All Ireland be if we win it in a few years time in front of a half empty Croke Park.

Because that's the way the game is headed over the next 10 - 20 years unless things change.

We've already got the low crowds and most people in Thurles today were asleep for much of both games.

Tipp v Cork, Tipp v Wat, the league finals, Clare v Lim, Cork v Wexford, the two games today, our games v Tipp and KK last year....all boring boring games.

What is it about supposedly innovative and modern tactics in Gaelic Games that everything must be so defence minded and negative.

Can a manager not just focus on getting good deliveries into good forwards and letting them play?

God help hurling if this is the future.

Deise2016

garv123 wrote: »

Brick started well today with 2 points and then things went back to normal from then on with very little attacking or possession from him. I'd love to see a game without brick and the likes of Bennett, Dunford or o halloran in his place. O halloran got 2 points today and looked threatening. He could do a lot more I'd he got 50-60 minutes.
Bringing Dunford on for 5 minutes is no good. You need him running at defences for a lof more than that.
Jamie Barron is one of the most underrated hurlers in the country. Man of the match today for me. Great performance and good points.

Brick, Moran, Pauric Mahony all good players but could we not leave at least one of the three out to get just a little bit more pace and eye for goal into the team

Colin Dunford very unfortunate not to be in the team

O'Halloran, Devine and Stephen Bennett could all add something different also.

carter10

Deise2016 wrote: »

One of the worst ten point wins I can ever remember in hurling.

I know we won and players and management deserve credit for getting the win after what happened against Tipp

But christ above lads....

No life to the game at all

No reason to get off your seat

No excitement, no spark

The game could have gone on for another 70 minutes and we wouldn't have scored a goal

I thought the drawn league final v Clare was bad but that was worse.

No progress from last year.

Still miles behind Tipp and Kilkenny and Galway would beat us too.

Austin Gleeson, Patrick Curran, the Bennetts, Maurice Shanahan, Brian O'Hallorran, Jamie Barron, Colin Dunford, Tom Devine....we have exciting, talented young players but we are a bore to watch

Yes we won but surely in a minority sport like hurling there has to be some sort of loyalty to the game aswell

What use will an All Ireland be if we win it in a few years time in front of a half empty Croke Park.

Because that's the way the game is headed over the next 10 - 20 years unless things change.

We've already got the low crowds and most people in Thurles today were asleep for much of both games.

Tipp v Cork, Tipp v Wat, the league finals, Clare v Lim, Cork v Wexford, the two games today, our games v Tipp and KK last year....all boring boring games.

What is it about supposedly innovative and modern tactics in Gaelic Games that everything must be so defence minded and negative.

Can a manager not just focus on getting good deliveries into good forwards and letting them play?

God help hurling if this is the future.

Well said....It's our responsibility to uphold the enjoyment of the hurling public. Our duty to play open, off the cuff hurling and have the traditionalists pat us on the head and condescend to us about our lovely brand of hurling and tell us " ah shur ye should have won one"
Listen, I don't give a monkeys what others think about our style of play, all I care about is that we win the all Ireland, if that means winning 2 points to 1 then so be it.
Can't believe the negativity on here today. We had a job to do and we went out and did it in difficult circumstances. Is anyone going to give the players some credit from picking themselves up from the mauling in the MF?

Deise2016

carter10 wrote: »

Well said....It's our responsibility to uphold the enjoyment of the hurling public. Our duty to play open, off the cuff hurling and have the traditionalists pat us on the head and condescend to us about our lovely brand of hurling and tell us " ah shur ye should have won one"
Listen, I don't give a monkeys what others think about our style of play, all I care about is that we win the all Ireland, if that means winning 2 points to 1 then so be it.
Can't believe the negativity on here today. We had a job to do and we went out and did it in difficult circumstances. Is anyone going to give the players some credit from picking themselves up from the mauling in the MF?

Open hurling and goals is what will win an all Ireland.

Maurice scored a goal for us v Clare in the second minute of the game.

For the rest of that game, the Munster Final and today's game we never scored or even looked like scoring a goal.

We haven't a hope in hell of winning an All Ireland playing such a defensive system. Fact.

Credit to the players and management for winning today. They deserve credit and should enjoy the result.

But the bigger picture is we're a million miles away from beating KK or Tipp.

No goals makes it impossible to beat KK or Tipp in a championship game and it's as clear as can be

robopaddy2

What a strange feeling. A comfortable 10 point win almost feeling like a defeat. I guess its knowing what awaits us in the semi. And seeing young talented forwards being stifled and suffocated by a system that is sucking the life and enthusiasm out of everyone, fans and players alike. Where is the enjoyment in supporting our county watching that? Not to mind what it must be like to play in it. I m clinging onto the hope that McGrath & co haven t shown their hand and we will explode into the semi with a different, conventional type approach. Anything other than at least a massive performance, pushing KK all the way should spell the end for this manager. When you look at how the players rebelled against Skully Ryan a few years back. Would anyone blame them if they wanted out of this system? As Joe Canning said after the Galway game, this is only a hobby for players. Where is the enjoyment in this hobby for these Waterford players you wonder


Roll on the u21s game Wednesday night. Its refreshing to see the players at least being allowed to hurl in a natural way

Cake Man

It's a strange feeling, as others have said it's good to at least get the win and make a trip to Croke park but it feels a bit empty and hollow. The game itself was fairly dire and I was urging them on to grab a goal or two but apart from a few Shane Bennet raspers (which I think he went for but just angled them too high) we didn't trouble their goal at any point.


The one thing I'll say is it was a kind of lose-lose game for us. If we won, everyone would say that it was to be expected and why we didn't win by more etc. But if we lost, well, there would've been war. So at least credit to the lads for doing the necessary albeit against limited opposition. Moran and Barron were very good, Tadgh solid too. That's probably all is worth talking about in terms of positives.


As for the negatives, well it's been mentioned already but the shooting was shocking. Aussie guilty as anyone, he needs to be told if he puts the first 2 or 3 wide then a "no long range shooting" policy needs to be applied to him and rather work/feed good ball into the FF line. The game bypassed Maurice and Paddy Curran as they were given absolutely nothing to work with up there. It must be demoralising for them.
I also don't understand why we insist on taking every ball into the tackle and risk turning it over. We'd be better off playing first time ball into the forwards.


It's impossible to see us turning over KK, especially after the last two games. KK will pick us off at ease if we continue to stupidly waste possession and take hail mary efforts. Shiner Ahearne made a good point on WLR at the end of the game where he said if we are to beat KK it would likely be at a time we least expect it which is probably true but after today, it's just not going to happen this year unfortunately. Another semi final loss to add to the rest coming up.....

Motivator

This is getting ridiculous now. This isn't hurling we're playing. Play the game properly against Kilkenny & if we get beaten by 20 points what about it, at least give it a go. For me, going up to Crok Park to play the way we're playing is already accepting that we can't beat Kilkenny. I wonder could any of the management team honestly tell us that these tactics will beat Kilkenny? They won't, it's not that they might or they could, they just won't. That's a fact. Play like we have been for two years & it's another semi final defeat. I'd rather give it a go & lose by 25.

Credit to the team today for the win, can't have been easy at all after the Munster final. These players deserve so much more than they're getting at the moment. It's really like watching a game of schools hurling where the headmaster is watching & the children are afraid to play freely in case they get in trouble. So frustrating. Whatever about fans going up there to watch it, my wife's cousin is on the panel & it must be very disheartening training since October for this.

Anyway, we'll see what happens in two weeks I suppose.

cornerboy

Ban all coaches........

blueflame

A 10 point win against any team at this stage of the championship must be worth celebrating , then why do i feel like we lost. I listened to Derek on the radio this morning talking about how far we have come since Nolan Park in 2014 as if he has resurrected us, well he should remember it was he who had us down there in the first place. !2 months prior to that y we had consolidated Div 1 status and run KK to extra time.

Forget about shooting wides, that is happening because we are having to resort to pot shots from 70 yards plus. The amount of time that there were only two players within 40 yards of the Wexford goal yesterday was ridiculous. Forwards of calibre of the Bennett Bros, Patrick Curran, Maurice, and even Paudie Mahony are being asked to hurl 80% of the game in our half of the field, crazy. Every time a back or a midfielder looks up there is no one to play the ball to so we opt to shoot. On top of the wide count you can add another 6/7 attempts that drop short. It is inviting teams onto us and putting even more pressure on backs. A back likes nothing better than seeing the pressure applied at the far end of the field.

No disrespect to Wexford they are a young team building with some fine hurlers, but Tipp or KK would most likely have savaged us have playing those tactics. We cannot keep inviting teams to flood our half of the field and hope to pick them off from 60 yards plus. Last year we mounted some clever intricate moves that created goal chances, this year we are more negative than ever. Derek has said we got beaten badly against Tipp because we abandoned the system and played conventional, RUBBISH - we got badly beaten against Tipp because we were flat and we allowed the game to be played within 30 meters of our goal. This is not about playing a sweeper system, it is about playing ultra negative hurling showing no belief in your players.

con89

wats the craic wrote: »

we will see sunday san when we bait ya lol

''Lol''

HangBlaa

Lord save us.. 2 league finals in a row, 2 all-Ireland semi-finals in a row. Perspective, this panel are still a bit short of the quality if what we had 2002-2010, and derek is getting a lot out of them. For context, he is getting far more than Davy got from a super clare panel, or TJ Ryan got from a limerick panel with a better recent years underage record than us.

People calling for Brick & Moran to be dropped, Brick is resoonsible for a huge number of turnovers in every match, one of our 3 goto men from puckouts.. Yet you want him to be replaced by somebody to run at the opposition, well you need to win possession first. As for dropping Kevin Moran.. Yeah, good one !

Yesterday, was a job well done. First 20 minutes waterford largely played with a full set of forwards, pushing up on Wexford puck out and forcing them long. This layed a platform for a 5point lead, which was maintained with comfort.

Wexford with wind and a far stronger second half breeze were able to land puck outs on Waterford 21yard line which inevitably meant that waterford, hunting in packs were further back the field, again a job well done with no Wexford Green flag.

Of the wides, not all were crazy pot shots, they were mainly from scoreable positions, with 6 or so barely wide. Frustrating yes, but not the end of the world.

Its time to stop listening to evangalists like Henry and Eddie Brennan ( proved a super manager this year!) bemoaning 'systems' and 'sweepers'. We cut our cloth to fit. Easy for them, with their county having 10 all-irelands in 13 years. Also this 'system' was pioneered by Cody, Centre back sitting on the D. Wing forwards and midfield dropping back to half back line. Era, maybe I am wrong, sure cats never did tactics !!

On an aside, Galway lined up with a sweeper, Aidan Harte, and beat Clare 2-17 to 17. In a great performance... We beat them 1-21 to 17, in terrible negative anti-hurling.

Cop on lads... 2 games to go.

deiseach

carter10 wrote: »

Well said....It's our responsibility to uphold the enjoyment of the hurling public. Our duty to play open, off the cuff hurling and have the traditionalists pat us on the head and condescend to us about our lovely brand of hurling and tell us " ah shur ye should have won one"
Listen, I don't give a monkeys what others think about our style of play, all I care about is that we win the all Ireland, if that means winning 2 points to 1 then so be it.
Can't believe the negativity on here today. We had a job to do and we went out and did it in difficult circumstances. Is anyone going to give the players some credit from picking themselves up from the mauling in the MF?

When I saw Eddie Brennan, the tactical genius who led the Kilkenny Under-21's to defeat against Westmeath, finger-wagging about the necessity for Waterford 'playing off instinct' just like we did when we didn't win All-Irelands back in his day either, I felt a strange warmth for The System. Screw him and everyone with their right-way-to-play-the-game claptrap.

Professey Chin

21 points against an absolutely terrible wexford team is nothing to really celebrate. That was no better then the second half against tipp but wexford were playing even worse and couldn't punish us for it. And they seemed to have learned absolutely nothing.
The same tactic of direct ball bypassing the crowded areas working, the same stupid insistence of trying to break a tackle with every possession, the constant sideways handpassing (there was one play in the second half causing constant groans. About 12 handpasses to work it up the field for tdb to send it wide), Patrick Curran out in midfield on more then one occasion, Stephen Bennett brought on to be marked by 3 men, brick left on for 71 minutes when he clearly doesn't have the legs for it anymore, Maurice moved to every position possible when he wasn't doing anything in any of them, constant pot shots because there's nobody inside the opponents 45, when the isolated forward does manage to gain possession nobody seems interested in actually getting up to support him, what seems to be a massive fear of actually playing the ball quickly, long solo runs without support or without the player looking up (that seems to be a bit of a chicken and egg situation in terms of fault but try those against kk and you're getting cleaned out of it).
I'm trying to get positives even with the win and I'm struggling. We have direct, pacey, dangerous forwards not allowed play. I'd much rather a full forward line of Curran, Stephen Bennett and Dunford with Mahony, Devine and Shane Bennett behind them. It'd be a threat IF they don't keep getting told to go back to their own half of the field....which they would..... Dammit

Ropaire

I've got no issue with playing 1-10 as a defensive system, it works well and we don't concede as much as we used to. We played Limerick in a challenge early in the year and were getting destroyed while we lined up orthodox, we switched to sweeper and although we still lost we looked alot more comfortable and were well on top.
We've played like this for so long that we're incapable of playing any other way now, it's embedded into the players.
What I wanted to see this year was 11-15 evolving some attacking patterns with plenty of movement to try and open up space for fast deliveries in. It seemed like the logical next step to add a functional attack to a solid defence., even with just 5 forwards we'd have lads like Dunford to run at defenders and at least attempt to carry a goal threat.
But instead it's the same as it was the last two years, the ball is just launched in over their heads and wide time and again. Lads like Gleeson and Moran had plenty of chances yesterday at the start of the game to pick out a half intelligent pass inside when we had bodies forward, but they ballooned more senseless hail Mary shots wide it was criminal. Who is going to stay forward when that's happening, the forwards we had will naturally start drifting out the field looking for possession. McGrath says that he isn't concerned with wides then, so there's no chance they're going to be told to cut it out or have a look for a better final pass any time soon.

There's been no improvement from last year whatsoever, and the surprise factor is long gone. Unless we try and bring something new to the table Kilkenny will just need to push their corner backs up to give themselves a platform to launch ball in on our fullbacks and eat us alive.

bruschi

From a Wexford point of view, I was disappointed with Waterford. Yes, we stunk, utterly and truly stank the place out of it, but I wasnt expecting much anyway coming into this game. We have a lot of young players coming through and about ten missing from yesterday (obviously not all first 15, but the strength in depth would be a big factor). We need a major management upheaval, but we'll see how that goes.

As for Waterford, the thing that disappointed me so much was that the game yesterday was an opportunity to devise a plan B. What happens when the system fails or you are chasing a game and need goals? How do you do that? Yesterdays result was never in doubt and man for man, Waterford had a better team. So why not go out and even if you only get a 2 point win, but score 3 goals, surely it is better to see if you can adapt and change within a game and not be so rigid and a slave to the system.

The other thing that is disappointing is the rigidity and lack of originality. I always considered Waterford probably the most flair based hurling team, with maverick type players who could do anything with the ball and a very flashy type team. Granted, that may not always win you games, but their was an expression of character with them and attractive play. Now you have a team that is so utterly boring to watch and when the system fails, there is nothing there to arrest it.

Best of luck against Kilkenny, I think you'll need lots of it.

O Riain

Anyone who is calling for the brick to be dropped did not watch his masterclass on the telly. The way the man holds the ball up waiting for others to arirve/make a run and then the intricate little flicks or passes were spectacular yesterday. His vision is beyond belief.

He may not be able to play a full 70 minutes but the man should be the first name on the starting 15 and only taken off when he has to come off.

An absolute Goliath of a player.

O Riain

wats the craic wrote: »

robopaddy2 wrote: »

My da's bigger than your da

we will see sunday san when we bait ya lol

lol

deiseach

*clicks on wats the craic's profile*

I think he should stick to the thread about the price of milk.

Whiplash85

Wexford were awful yesterday. Standing up and hitting the ball with big windmill like swings. Their hurling was so slow at times. You dont get space like that against Waterford. They have had a huge turnover of players so maybe if they get them back fit again they can kick on next year. It might be the right time for Liam Dunne to walk away. He has probably carried them as far as he can and made them competitive again.

Just did a quick calculation last night. Waterford have averaged 1 goal every 130 minutes in all competitive fixtures this year (league and championship). It is not enough and will not be enough against Kilkenny. Yesterday was the day to let the shackles off and go for a couple of goals especially in the last 15 minutes but nothing changed. I was thinking that Waterford must have some plan that has been kept under wraps and are not showing their cards. I hope for your sake this is the case. Otherwise it will be another facile KK win. However Waterford have nothing to lose now and no one will give Waterford a prayer which could suit ye.

Tipp Galway game is really a coin toss. Cannot fathom how Tipp are 4/9 to win. Galway were very impressive yesterday and the scoreline flattered Clare a little. That game should be a brilliant spectacle and could be the game of the championship.

mountgomery burns

Bruschi, how many first team players are Wexford missing? Looking at the forwards I couldn't see who would be in there instead. Are ye missing lads in midfield?

Just noted a lot of talk about it but the names were pretty familiar to me.

Whiplash85

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Bruschi, how many first team players are Wexford missing? Looking at the forwards I couldn't see who would be in there instead. Are ye missing lads in midfield?

Just noted a lot of talk about it but the names were pretty familiar to me.

Jack Guiney would be a huge addition and another ball winner able to take a score but I think himself and Dunne had a falling out.

mountgomery burns

Whiplash85 wrote: »

Jack Guiney would be a huge addition and another ball winner able to take a score but I think himself and Dunne had a falling out.

He has talent but he's not interested. He was only a bit part player in 2014 sure and for the ability he has that should never be the case but it was commitment that was the issue.

In fairness, wouldn't blame anyone for it. The game has gone mad in that respect.

blue note

Is everyone united that we'd want Galway in the final over Tipp? I'd kind of like Tipp myself, think we owe them a beating!

PTH2009

There was a very very loud wexford supporter behind me yesterday who screamed the whole way through the match celebrating a wexford point like they won the all ireland :D. Thought he was going to go into cardiac arrest when they got back to within 5 points

Expecting Croke Park to be desirted but can feel a lot of cats fans will travel up just to laugh at our expense. Waterford fans wont travel. Dublin vs Limerick in the minor is the opening game

Were like Westmeath going into the Leinster football final dis year and last (they had a 2% chance of beating Dublin). If u told me we would get a game in Croke Park Jan/Feb last id have taken your hand off. Go up and enjoy the day, its a short enough journey, in a fab stadium and against the best

Hopefully we will get a league game vs Dublin there next spring as were due an away game against them

bruschi

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Bruschi, how many first team players are Wexford missing? Looking at the forwards I couldn't see who would be in there instead. Are ye missing lads in midfield?

Just noted a lot of talk about it but the names were pretty familiar to me.

first team, would be hard to quantify really. Andrew Shore and David Redmond both were starters last year. As was Ian Byrne, Kevin foley and Guiney (although sparingly). The latter 3 all off the panel for non injury related reasons. Liam Ryan was injured most of this year and only came in yesterday for Breen who had meningitis. Then Podge Doran was missing yesterday who started all this year and last. After that you'd be mainly talking panel depth players like Shane Tompkins, Shaun Murphy, Tomas Waters has never really come back since his cruciate injury, Aidan Nolan was missing most of the year. And sure Lee Chin wasnt 100% and got injured early on yesterdya too. But thats an awful lot of players to be missing that could be involved.

edit: thats not to use the above injury list as an excuse for yesterday either. Just to paint a positive picture that we could have a much stronger panel and with the right management could start to go in the right direction again. Even if we had all of those playing healthy all year long, I still dont think we would have won that game due to the approach and manner in which the team played.

meathhurler48

PTH

We have enough of your pessimism. Not questioning that you are a great Deise supporter but your constant pessimistic tone is starting to grate. You even had Wexford to win by six? This team needs all our supporters to be positive. If you can't be that, for whatever reason, maybe you are best off this thread for the next two weeks.

We have two huge games coming up and it's all shoulders to the wheel. Here's to the 21's on Wednesday for starters.

Psychedelic

I'll be going to the semi but to be honest I'd rather watch from home, first time I've ever felt that.

We know the same team will line out (unless there's injuries), they will play the same tactics, with the same long distance shooting and wides. All very predictable and dull. That's what so annoying too, the management and players are not learning from their mistakes.

Last year the system looked like it could evolve and improve with time as the players got more experience and physicality, and there were some nice moves at times, but it's the same crap in every game now. I hope the team pulls out an unexpected amazing performance against KK but sadly I cannot see it happening.

cul beag

I'm going to try to be the eternal optimist and say that all may not be lost against Kilkenny. McGrath acknowledged yesterday that with 61 mins gone in last year's semi final we were only a few points down. Now given the amount of possession /wides we are shooting,maybe just maybe we might be alot closer than people think if we convert some of these against them! We are definitely at our most dangerous when written off and I fully understand we have to hit the ground running but lets say we go in at halftime 4 pts up,we stifle the expected KK onslaught at the start of the second half then maybe,just maybe they realise we're not going away! I would say though for this to happen we'd have to push more men forward probably to our expense at the back but at least have a go! I think Cody will push the likes of Colin Fennelly in on De Burca to stop his play making role so if Darragh Fives is injured then we have a slight problem. Yes KK are a good side but think back to Galway in last year's final they had them on the ropes and totally collapsed in the second half. Outside of Paul Murphy their fullback line isn't world class and can be got at and id play Curran and Shane Bennett in there to utilise their pace. They will earmark Brick again as our go to man from puckouts and sniff that out so we need to have another option for socky to hit. It will be alot closer than people think I just think that the longer we stay in the game the more confident we'll get but our system will have to change. I'm banking on McGrath coming up with something unexpected because I'm sure he must have learned from last year's game and given KK aren't starting games quickly then why can't we capitalise and go for the juggler early? They will be expecting us to set up defensively from the start so why not change it up and put them thinking?

Whiplash85

meathhurler48 wrote: »

PTH

We have enough of your pessimism. Not questioning that you are a great Deise supporter but your constant pessimistic tone is starting to grate. You even had Wexford to win by six? This team needs all our supporters to be positive. If you can't be that, for whatever reason, maybe you are best off this thread for the next two weeks.

We have two huge games coming up and it's all shoulders to the wheel. Here's to the 21's on Wednesday for starters.

Says the guy with 15 posts to his name, which is meathhurler incidentally and who speaks for everyone by using the "royal we". No offence mate but you sound like an unmerciful gob****e full of his self importance and who actually thinks the tone of a post or pessimism could have a negative influence on the team.

crottys lake

I give us a more than a decent chance against Kilkenny. The game will be very tight with little between the sides for long periods. In a way our build up to this match is ideal as it will be very low key and most of the pundits will write us off not to mind our own. Darragh will be a huge loss but Connor Gleeson showed he is some prospect yesterday which was no surprise to us that have been watching him develop in the past few years.

A small tweak to our set up with maybe a surprise element added in will see us push them all the way. Anyone who thinks this game is a foregone conclusion are well wide of the mark.

cul beag

crottys lake wrote: »

I give us a more than a decent chance against Kilkenny. The game will be very tight with little between the sides for long periods. In a way our build up to this match is ideal as it will be very low key and most of the pundits will write us off not to mind our own. Darragh will be a huge loss but Connor Gleeson showed he is some prospect yesterday which was no surprise to us that have been watching him develop in the past few years.

A small tweak to our set up with maybe a surprise element added in will see us push them all the way. Anyone who thinks this game is a foregone conclusion are well wide of the mark.

There must be a final sting in the dying wasp!! Agree with you about Conor Gleeson he looked very comfortable when introduced yesterday. I'm puzzled though why Stephen Bennett isn't starting and only 3rd sub yesterday as well as not seeing any action against Tipp. Hopefully he's unleashed against the cats because he's a match winner if given the proper supply. This game is playing into our barrow,a bit like Galway against Clare yesterday. I think it will be tight and nobody will tip us to win so it couldn't be better!

buck65

Should Maurice Shanahan have been red carded for pulling off his own helmet?
What was that about? Perhaps a wasp got in there? #Mauriceshanahanhelmet

amber69

buck65 wrote: »

Should Maurice Shanahan have been red carded for pulling off his own helmet?
What was that about? Perhaps a wasp got in there? #Mauriceshanahanhelmet

Couldn't believe that at the time, pulled off his own faceguard as he was getting up and then started pointing to it. Don't know about getting a red for it but he should be ashamed of himself.

ObiwanKenoby

I think anyone who believes that we have made progress since last year – after the 21pt humiliation that Tipp inflicted on us and the mediocre display yesterday – and believe that by some miracle that we might beat KK - is optimistic in the extreme. I sincerely hope I’m wrong.
One recent poster said something along the lines of: “to hell with the hurling purists, such as Eddie Brennan and Shefflin, who say we need to get rid of the system to have a chance of beating the KK and Tipp. Well, as far as I can see, the vast majority of analysts – Cummins, Sheedy, Jamesie, Loughnane etc etc – are saying pretty much the same thing.
I think the point being made in an article by PMO’Sullivan in The Examiner on Saturday is still relevant even though we beat Wexford. He was basically pointing out that the system has to be queried as: last year the U21s were 1/3 favourites to beat Clare. They went out and played with practically a mirror image of the system still being deployed by the seniors and lost by 2pts. But, with a new manager and more or less the same bunch of players, last week, they went out and played offensively – with some style and conviction – and hurled Clare off the pitch, beating them by 18pts.
It is my opinion that many of us are now only beginning to realise that deep down we know that if we persist with this system and go out in the semi, and play the way we did against Wexford yesterday, KK will destroy us.
We don’t necessarily have to go orthodox 15 on 15 – we can still use a sweeper – Galway did yesterday successfully against Clare. But like Galway, we need to commit more men – who can score goals, like Stephen Bennett, if he’s available, and P Curran forward. What have we got to lose at this stage?
The hail-mary, hit from 60 yards and hope approach, with no one inside in a better position to pass to, is not going to work against KK- we all know this. (And there have been many other examples in games this year where we racked up ridiculous wide counts: KK league game, first league final game, and Munster Final). The system is stifling the highly-talented hurlers we have. A glaring example of this are the seven wides shot by Austin Gleeson yesterday. If we stick with that approach in the semi, the likelihood is KK will inflict a heavy defeat and even more scars on our squad that might take a long time to heal.

deisechap09

Echoing alot of posters here but yesterday was definitely the most difficult to watch 10 point victory for us to watch I can remember. Im not sure we played any better than against Tipp, only for the opposition were far inferior.

Hard to know why we didnt push on and have a proper go up front, I am beginning to feel sorry for likes of Shane Bennett and Curran at this point. The way we set up needs runners and as much as I rate Maurice, Pauric and Brick there isnt room for all 3. Personally, I would take Maurice out, starting Dunford in the current set up. Dunfords running from deep in sorely missed in my view.

Watching the second game closely with both playing sweepers there was no sign of the hail marys from either side (least nowhere near as often). I actually dont blame Gleeson or whoever for these shots as often they arent a bad option. The problem with it is on off-days, there is no alternative. Both Clare and Galway had forwards pretty much parked on either end line providing options. This something we dont do, regularly their is 1 man inside who ends up around 30 - 35 metres out before they get ball in hand. Our support play has also dropped massively even from last year. It seems like a huge amount of thought has been put into a defensive structure, but going forward we really are toothless with the current formation.

However, we definitely have a chance against KK if we can get our belief back. I would bring back Moran in place of D Fives(if injured) with Dunford going to MF, C Gleeson for coughlan. Up front, Id like to see Stephen Bennett in for Maurice and maybe Devine for Curran. Additionally id like to see Gleeson settle in a half forward role for the entire game, this free role isn't getting the best out of him in my opinion.

Motivator

amber69 wrote: »

Couldn't believe that at the time, pulled off his own faceguard as he was getting up and then started pointing to it. Don't know about getting a red for it but he should be ashamed of himself.

He was alerting the referee to the fact that his faceguard was being interfered with & then had it broken. The thing was broken & he pulled at it then ffs

Dick phelan

It's an absolute joke that the exact same team will probably start against KK after two poor displays, must be so hard for fringe players to see the abysmal display against Tipp and yet they still don't get a chance, where's the pressure to perform for the first 15 if there is no competition for places. Conor Gleeson, Stephen Bennett and imo Dunford should all start the next day something has to change, what is it they say about insanity, it's doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result, we have zero and i mean zero chance of beating Kilkenny if we play the same system we have all year.

Dick phelan

Anyone know the story with Darragh Fives, i didn't see it yesterday he must have been injured to be taken off so early?

ObiwanKenoby

Dick phelan wrote: »

Anyone know the story with Darragh Fives, i didn't see it yesterday he must have been injured to be taken off so early?

Recurrence of his quad injury, unlikely he'll be fit for semi unfortunately..

PTH2009

balls

forecast of rain for Wednesday night. Rain would suite Tipp better i think

hopefully our firepower will be enough, Stephen Bennett will want to make a huge statement i imagine

mickmackey1

Strange how things have gone pear-shaped so quickly, defensively ye look very brittle and nervous. Could get an almighty tonking against the Cats I fear, similar to '08 :eek:

meathhurler48

Whiplash
Look at the FULL username and work it out. Since when does the number of posts define somebody. I suspect that I have seen a lot more Waterford hurling than yourself.

hurler on de ditch

carter10 wrote: »

Well said....It's our responsibility to uphold the enjoyment of the hurling public. Our duty to play open, off the cuff hurling and have the traditionalists pat us on the head and condescend to us about our lovely brand of hurling and tell us " ah shur ye should have won one"
Listen, I don't give a monkeys what others think about our style of play, all I care about is that we win the all Ireland, if that means winning 2 points to 1 then so be it.
Can't believe the negativity on here today. We had a job to do and we went out and did it in difficult circumstances. Is anyone going to give the players some credit from picking themselves up from the mauling in the MF?

NO

dishdash

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Strange how things have gone pear-shaped so quickly, defensively ye look very brittle and nervous. Could get an almighty tonking against the Cats I fear, similar to '08 :eek:

I think another heavy defeat this season could damage this team psychologically. Apart from anything they have to believe that they can beat the Tipps and Kilkennys of this world at the business end of the championship. There's nothing like a couple of thrashings to knock that belief out of players- at any grade of hurling. Theyre good lads but they'd be better to come back next year having learned a bit than keep going.
Based on yesterdays shambles I'd be in favour of a knockout competition. Waterford would have been better exiting after the Munster final. Neither Wexford nor Waterford could have a chance of realistically beat both Tipp and Kilkenny in 2016 to win an AI, ... so it begs the question of the value of them continuing in the championship?? To be cannon fodder??

Wouldn't it be better to let players get back to their clubs. Tis the time for club hurling now not in the lashing rain and muck of October or November

hurler on de ditch

cul beag wrote: »

I'm going to try to be the eternal optimist and say that all may not be lost against Kilkenny. McGrath acknowledged yesterday that with 61 mins gone in last year's semi final we were only a few points down. Now given the amount of possession /wides we are shooting,maybe just maybe we might be alot closer than people think if we convert some of these against them! We are definitely at our most dangerous when written off and I fully understand we have to hit the ground running but lets say we go in at halftime 4 pts up,we stifle the expected KK onslaught at the start of the second half then maybe,just maybe they realise we're not going away! I would say though for this to happen we'd have to push more men forward probably to our expense at the back but at least have a go! I think Cody will push the likes of Colin Fennelly in on De Burca to stop his play making role so if Darragh Fives is injured then we have a slight problem. Yes KK are a good side but think back to Galway in last year's final they had them on the ropes and totally collapsed in the second half. Outside of Paul Murphy their fullback line isn't world class and can be got at and id play Curran and Shane Bennett in there to utilise their pace. They will earmark Brick again as our go to man from puckouts and sniff that out so we need to have another option for socky to hit. It will be alot closer than people think I just think that the longer we stay in the game the more confident we'll get but our system will have to change. I'm banking on McGrath coming up with something unexpected because I'm sure he must have learned from last year's game and given KK aren't starting games quickly then why can't we capitalise and go for the juggler early? They will be expecting us to set up defensively from the start so why not change it up and put them thinking?

I suppose the game against kk in last years semi was over a lot earlier than 61 minutes ,as far as i am concerned ,we went in 2 points down at half time ,within a few mins of the second half that deficit was out to 4,GAME OVER ,If you remember all the kk pucks outs not one of them were down the bricks side of the field ,mc Grath does not do unexpected because he has learned nothing from last year let alone this ,you also say KK are a good side ,well i know they are a great side ,going for another three in a row ,also they have won more all Irelands in the last 2 years as we did in the last 130 years

robopaddy2

At least all the keyboard warriors from other counties who came on here to stick the knife in after the Munster final seem to have dispersed after Sunday s win!


Munster u21 final to look forward to now and then an AI semi in 2 weeks. We could be in worse places all the same. I said here a couple weeks ago that a win for the u21s would be bigger than beating Wexford and I still stand over that. A win will almost guarantee us an AI appearance. For a county like ours starved of success it would give everyone a huge lift.

blueflame

Having been in Thurles on Sunday, and having had the opportunity to watch a recording of the full of the game last night there are a couple of things I feel need commenting on. Firstly despite what i said yesterday about most of the shooting from distance being as a result of there being no options inside, well watching the replay last night, there were in fact options available a lot of the time but we seemed panicked into going for the score. Second thing was during the commentary, Donal O'Grady who was giving the sideline view, commented that Derek and Dan were screaming at the players, particularly in the first half, to let the ball inside rather than shooting.

This poses a number of disturbing questions such as, are the players not listening to the management? is one thing being drummed in during training and then trying to change it on match day? are forwards falling back through fear, or is it through frustration? Either way what was blatantly obvious last night, is that we have some tremendously skillful forwards, who are capable of winning their own ball, and are capable of scoring and creating scoring opportunities, including goals, but for some reason we seem more intent on withdrawing further and further out the field as the game progresses. In the first half on Sunday, Shane Bennett robbed a ball off the corner back on the end line and Maurice blocked down an attempted clearance from the Wexford Keeper both resulting in scores one of which could have been a goal. This is the kind of pressure and presence we need inside the opposition 21 and we need to sustain throughout the game. In the second half there was no pressure or presence whatsoever like this, and Derek has to identify why.

Is his general negativity feeding into the team while not realising how negative he is being? is there a fear factor based on previous beatings? or is there a lack of belief or a lack of maturity? Whatever the reason we have to address it and quickly. Some of the scores we picked off last Sunday were absolutely out of the top drawer, we have a young enough side, full of energy with bags of energy and pace in reserve on the bench, we just need to get that enthusiasm back and start using it in the right places. If it is that the players are falling back against the wishes of the management, time to do something about it Iron this out and I give us a right chance of giving KK a real rattle, fail to address this and we will invite KK onto us, they will most likely crucify us and Paul Murphy will probably end up as man of the match.

The time is now!!!!!!!