Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

mountgomery burns

ThaiTanic wrote: »

You came out of hiding well done, no I wouldn't have played Jake Dillon or Gavin O Brien as they're simply not good enough and the fitzgibbon lads deserve to have a clear run at Friday. (Look at Ronan Maher yesterday)

I agree McNulty deserved his chance and he got it yesterday but he's simply not good enough as seen. I would have started him too giving the lack of players we have available at the moment

My team for yesterday would have been:
1. Iggy
2. Lyons
3. Coughlan
4. Connors
5. Fives
6. TDB
7. McNulty
8. Moran
9. Aussie
10. Nolan
11. Mahony
12. Kearney
13. Shane Bennet
14. Foran
15. O Halloran

That team is picked to play 15 v 15 not this defensive crap.

What would your team have been yesterday out of interest?

Austin Gleeson obviously not fit enough to play midfield. Lyons did well enough when he came on but if you think they'd have been any more competitive with himself Foran and Billy Nolan as championship debutants starting then I think you are mistaken. I am all for given new fellas a run but like you're talking one a game really. That half forward line would have been cleaned out, was bad enough as it was.


I thought McNulty actually played pretty well, he did make a few mistakes but you have to allow that. O Halloran picked off a couple of good scores when the game was over and should get his chance the next day. I wonder though if I'd asked the question before the match, would Devine have been in instead of O Halloran?

ThaiTanic

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Austin Gleeson obviously not fit enough to play midfield. Lyons did well enough when he came on but if you think they'd have been any more competitive with himself Foran and Billy Nolan as championship debutants starting then I think you are mistaken. I am all for given new fellas a run but like you're talking one a game really. That half forward line would have been cleaned out, was bad enough as it was.


I thought McNulty actually played pretty well, he did make a few mistakes but you have to allow that. O Halloran picked off a couple of good scores when the game was over and should get his chance the next day. I wonder though if I'd asked the question before the match, would Devine have been in instead of O Halloran?

Yeah Gleeson could have played as a holding midfielder, So what your saying is you were 100% happy with the team McGrath Selected? And also that you agree with playing lads in a League game 5 days before an All Ireland Semi Final?

mountgomery burns

ThaiTanic wrote: »

Yeah Gleeson could have played as a holding midfielder, So what your saying is you were 100% happy with the team McGrath Selected?

I think as long as a few more players are tried out the next day then I'd be happy enough. It was good to see Lyons coming on, and I'd like to see him used again next day. I wouldn't start O'Brien or Dillon the next day, but we really are desperately short in midfield if Barron is out and until Aussie is fit and I could see why you'd give them a chance when you're so short given they are both still only 23. Even Darragh Fives would be the next man for midfield and he is also unavailable.

I'd like to see Foran get a run and Billy Nolan as a sub if they are back to full strength. On the Fitzgibbon, you know Shane Bennett is playing as well? So himself, Conor Gleeson, Tom Devine, Gavin O Brien and Colin Dunford who all played yesterday wouldn't have been able to play or Dillon apparently because he's not good enough. So you'd probably have to start one of an unfit Shanahan and Stephen Bennett and after that I dunno who your other 4 subs would be.

cul beag

Has Thomas Ryan been made surplus to requirements? No trace of him yet? Definitely couldn't be any worse than what we have tried already. He could be an impact substitute as his pace could be of huge benefit when the game has opened up. We all know from the senior club championship he is a lethal forward for Tallow.

PTH2009

Hopefully no injures come from next weekends fitzgibbon games and our lads impress

I'd like too bring our strongest squad possible to Dublin and hopefully get a win there. Play a Strong enough team vs Cork and if were qualifed for the QF by the time we play Clare use that game to give some guys a chance.

The challenge game against Galway on the 19th Mar could be the last chance for some guys too make championship 30

thesultan

PTH2009 wrote: »

Hopefully no injures come from next weekends fitzgibbon games and our lads impress

I'd like too bring our strongest squad possible to Dublin and hopefully get a win there. Play a Strong enough team vs Cork and if were qualifed for the QF by the time we play Clare use that game to give some guys a chance.

The challenge game against Galway on the 19th Mar could be the last chance for some guys too make championship 30

Playing Cork in a challenge game this weekend

JesusRef

thesultan wrote: »

Playing Cork in a challenge game this weekend

any idea on when are where it is on?

tonc76

Wasn't at the game on Sunday but from watching on tv there was no sign of Dan on the sideline? Any ideas?

PTH2009

tonc76 wrote: »

Wasn't at the game on Sunday but from watching on tv there was no sign of Dan on the sideline? Any ideas?

He was there

Jjjjjjjbarry

cul beag wrote: »

Has Thomas Ryan been made surplus to requirements? No trace of him yet? Definitely couldn't be any worse than what we have tried already. He could be an impact substitute as his pace could be of huge benefit when the game has opened up. We all know from the senior club championship he is a lethal forward for Tallow.

He was never good on the soft ground as he was too small for the rucking at this time of year? Never really got his chance in the summer either to be fair.

cul beag

Surely he's as heavy as Brian O Halloran and alot better finisher aswell? Maybe we'll see the rest of the squad rolled out for the rest of the league and he might get his opportunity. Colm and Shane Roche will probably get their annual outing also.

Cornerstoner

cul beag wrote: »

Surely he's as heavy as Brian O Halloran and alot better finisher aswell? Maybe we'll see the rest of the squad rolled out for the rest of the league and he might get his opportunity. Colm and Shane Roche will probably get their annual outing also.

Nowhere near as heavy (physical) as O'Halloran. Ryan never seems to be able to get on the ball at inter county level to demonstrate his finishing. A really good club hurler no one can deny that. Just one of these players who cant make the step up

robopaddy2

cul beag wrote: »

Surely he's as heavy as Brian O Halloran and alot better finisher aswell? Maybe we'll see the rest of the squad rolled out for the rest of the league and he might get his opportunity. Colm and Shane Roche will probably get their annual outing also.

That's a bit cynical, Colm Roche is only just breaking onto the panel, still u21 this year. If he can settle on a position going forward he could be a great prospect. At minor and u21 he has played everywhere from wing back to corner forward. Shane I fear could be running out of time though. Hasn't really done enough to stake a claim in the team anytime he's been tried.

thesultan

A few motions in congress this week. I think they said leave 17 year olds play adult hurling. Rural clubs need the numbers.

PTH2009

thesultan wrote: »

A few motions in congress this week. I think they said leave 17 year olds play adult hurling. Rural clubs need the numbers.

Not sure will the new AI football championship structure effect us really ??. Can't see us ever being good enough to make the last 8 in the football championship

Although I'd have an interest I would not attend many club games so not really in favour of moving the AI finals too August. Theres a buzz around September AI finals that will be hard to beat. I'm from the city so there would less buzz around club games than say in villages/towns. Obv I respect the clubs as there the back bone of the GAA and they truly develop players but nothing beats the buzz of an intercounty game

My Club Deise package came dis morning. DVD of all the 2016 under 21 games included (very amuter production but very watchable)

PTH2009

Allianz FL4 P W D L Dif Pts
Waterford 2 2 0 0 19 4
Wexford 2 2 0 0 5 4
Wesmeath 2 1 1 0 9 3
Leitrim 2 1 0 1 8 2
London 2 1 0 1 -6 2
Carlow 2 0 1 1 -5 1
Limerick 2 0 0 2 -12 0
Wicklow 2 0 0 2 -18 0

the footballers travel to Wexford this sunday and a win there will give us a very good chance of promotion but on paper Wexford and Westmeath seem to a step above the rest in the division.

remaining fixtures
Sun 26 Feb- Wexford (A)
Sun 5 Mar- Westmeath (H)
Sat 18 Mar- Carlow (A)
Sat 25 Mar- Limerick (H)
Sun 2 Apr- Leitrim (A)

apperently the hurlers are playing Cork in a challenge game the weekend and of course some of the our players are involved in the Fitzgibbon cup which will be played Friday and Saturday in Galway (semis friday IT Carlow vs UCC and Mary I vs LIT)

thesultan

Have the county board given out all fixture dates or just the first two?

DE DEISE

PTH2009 wrote: »

Allianz FL4 P W D L Dif Pts
Waterford 2 2 0 0 19 4
Wexford 2 2 0 0 5 4
Wesmeath 2 1 1 0 9 3
Leitrim 2 1 0 1 8 2
London 2 1 0 1 -6 2
Carlow 2 0 1 1 -5 1
Limerick 2 0 0 2 -12 0
Wicklow 2 0 0 2 -18 0

the footballers travel to Wexford this sunday and a win there will give us a very good chance of promotion but on paper Wexford and Westmeath seem to a step above the rest in the division.

remaining fixtures
Sun 26 Feb- Wexford (A)
Sun 5 Mar- Westmeath (H)
Sat 18 Mar- Carlow (A)
Sat 25 Mar- Limerick (H)
Sun 2 Apr- Leitrim (A)

apperently the hurlers are playing Cork in a challenge game the weekend and of course some of the our players are involved in the Fitzgibbon cup which will be played Friday and Saturday in Galway (semis friday IT Carlow vs UCC and Mary I vs LIT)

Their also playing Wexford hurlers in a challange this Sunday , why would they be playing Cork they'll be meeting in league action soon

robopaddy2

PTH2009 wrote: »

Allianz FL4 P W D L Dif Pts
Waterford 2 2 0 0 19 4
Wexford 2 2 0 0 5 4
Wesmeath 2 1 1 0 9 3
Leitrim 2 1 0 1 8 2
London 2 1 0 1 -6 2
Carlow 2 0 1 1 -5 1
Limerick 2 0 0 2 -12 0
Wicklow 2 0 0 2 -18 0

the footballers travel to Wexford this sunday and a win there will give us a very good chance of promotion but on paper Wexford and Westmeath seem to a step above the rest in the division.

remaining fixtures
Sun 26 Feb- Wexford (A)
Sun 5 Mar- Westmeath (H)
Sat 18 Mar- Carlow (A)
Sat 25 Mar- Limerick (H)
Sun 2 Apr- Leitrim (A)

apperently the hurlers are playing Cork in a challenge game the weekend and of course some of the our players are involved in the Fitzgibbon cup which will be played Friday and Saturday in Galway (semis friday IT Carlow vs UCC and Mary I vs LIT)

We have beaten probably the 2 poorest sides in the division in Wicklow and London. The next 2 games will be tough to get anything from, but capable of winning any of the last 3 games. Although over the past few years we have been very inconsistent, getting some surprisingly good results then lose at home to someone like Carlow or London.

PTH2009

DE DEISE wrote: »

Their also playing Wexford hurlers in a challange this Sunday , why would they be playing Cork they'll be meeting in league action soon

someone said here a few days back were playing Cork dis weekend but they may have been mistaken

Saw that in the N&S today that were playing Wexford in Kilmore at 3.30 sunday. Obv its too give a few more guys more game time, hopefully no injuries from that or the Fitzgibbon.

I wonder what sort of Waterford crowd will head to Croke Park saturday week ??. Few of us heading up anyway, its a good night of GAA with a top class football game on after with Dublin playing Mayo (it will be nice to see the AI football champions in action). On a seperate note hope Cuala beat Slaughtneil in the club hurling semi final dis weeked as a loss for them will mean a few top class players (Cian O Callaghan, the Schuttes and David Tracey) may be back for Dublin for our game ???

PTH2009

Colin Dunford scored the winning goal for IT Carlow in ET in the Fitzgibbon semi finals. IT Carlow beating a UCC side who played 8 Waterford players throughout the game

UCC
Jack Barry (Castlelyons, Cork)
Shane Roche (Shamrocks, Waterford)
Colm Spillane (Castlelyons, Cork)
Ian Kenny (Ballygunner, Waterford)
Séamus Kennedy (St Mary’s Clonmel, Tipperary)
Conor Gleeson (Fourmilewater, Waterford)
Rickard Cahalane (Ballymartle, Cork)
Jamie Barron (Fourmilewater, Waterford)
Michael Breen (Ballina, Tipperary)
Gavin O’Brien (Roanmore, Waterford)
Tom Devine (Modeligo, Waterford)
Mark O’Brien (Ferrybank, Waterford)
Alan Cadogan (Douglas, Cork)
Rob O’Shea (Carrigaline, Cork)
Anthony Spillane (Castlelyons, Cork)

Colm Roche came on as a Sub

IT Carlow
Enda Rowland (Abbeyleix, Laois)
Dwayne Palmer (Camross, Laois)
Kevin Hannafin (St Brendan’s, Kerry)
Ross Browne (Colligan, Waterford)
James Doyle (St Mullin’s, Carlow)
Damian Healy (Longwood, Meath)
Dale O’Hanlon (Carrick Swans, Tipperary)
Kevin Kelly (St Patrick’s, Kilkenny)
Colin Dunford (Colligan, Waterford)
Charles Dwyer (Ballinakill, Laois)
Stephen Maher (Clough-Ballacolla, Laois)
Martin Kavanagh (St Mullin’s, Carlow)
Jack Fagan (De La Salle, Waterford)
Mark Russell (Lattin-Cullen, Tipperary)
Chris Bolger (Clara, Kilkenny)

cul beag

Some result for ITC. Congrats to the Waterford contingent involved in the victory.

PTH2009

only 2 Waterford players involved in the other Fitzgibbon semi final and they are Kieren and Shane Bennett who both start of LIT

deisedude

cul beag wrote: »

Some result for ITC. Congrats to the Waterford contingent involved in the victory.

DJ is putting himself at the front of the pack for when Cody calls it a day. Nothing short of amazing what he is doing with IT Carlow

PTH2009

deisedude wrote: »

DJ is putting himself at the front of the pack for when Cody calls it a day. Nothing short of amazing what he is doing with IT Carlow

He might be our next manager, he is always praising our players in his newspaper colum

LIT beaten by Mary I, so Dunford, Ross Browne and Jack Fagan will be Waterfords reps in the final 2morrow

Back to home matters, Surly there must be a under 21 hurling management team in place by now and they have started preparing for the Munster championship meeting With Cork in July ???. The Minors are preparing for there championship, no word on the new under 17 squad ???

tommylad1212

They are playing wexford Sunday not cork

Deise_2012

Anyone at the Fitz game yesterday? How did Colin Dunford get on against Barron and Breen?

robopaddy2

Deise_2012 wrote: »

Anyone at the Fitz game yesterday? How did Colin Dunford get on against Barron and Breen?

Dunford only cam on as a sub in ET as far as I know, carrying an injury

ThaiTanic

Deise_2012 wrote: »

Anyone at the Fitz game yesterday? How did Colin Dunford get on against Barron and Breen?

Im up at the fitzgibbon, Dunford outplayed Barron yesterday very good, also picked up Devine when he was brought out, Fagan played well had a clear goal disallowed in the first half, Ross Browne also excellent really one to look at for the future I think he's overlooked when it comes to Waterford, also great to see Harney back from injury, didn't come on but was warmed up a few times could see game time today, for UCC Devine was probably our best player, Could of had a goal only for he was fouled, for LIT Kiearn Bennett was very good, couldn't do any more, Shane extremely poor again think he needs a rest.

Not sure why everyone is so surprised about IT Carlow, they have won the league the last 3 years running I think. Also drew with Mary I in the group stages of the fitz. Today I think Kelly is missing for IT Carlow who scored 1-1 yesterday. Word up here also suggests the Mary I full back is gone.


Hopefully a cracker today!

KevIRL

Dublin will be missing Cuala players for the game this day week

PTH2009

KevIRL wrote: »

Dublin will be missing Cuala players for the game this day week

Good news for us. Also good that all our lads got through the Fitzgibbon weekend uninjured

Looking forward to next Saturday and hopefully we put a side eager to win

PTH2009

Wex 1-3- Wat 0-6 HT

Wexford playing into a strong wind in the second half

match on South east fm

KevIRL

PTH2009 wrote: »

Wex 1-3- Wat 0-6 HT

Wexford playing into a strong wind in the second half

match on South east fm

Other way around I believe. Wexford have the wind advantage next half

KevIRL

Wex 1-9 Wat 0-10 FT

PTH2009

Wexford 1-9- Waterford 0-10 full time

3ships

Wat 11 wex 4 ht hurling according to wex gaa twitter

3ships

No more tweets from wexford so Waterford must have won

Dublin Dave 2014

Anyone attend the hurling challenge v Wexford ?

IanVW

Taking this from hogan stand site. Score was 0-22 1-13

Was at the game.Waterford deserved their win and taught us a lesson on how to use the sweeper properly. Waterford had a lot stronger team than wexfotd. They had 10 to 12 first team regulars by the end of the game on the pitch. Wexford team that started. Oliver o Leary, Andrew Kenny, Willie devereux, eoin Conroy, shane o Gorman, Aaron maddock, Anthony roche, eanna martin, Damien reck, Kevin Foley, Jack guiney, David Dunne, cathal Dunbar, Gary more , Nicky kirwan. Subs liam Ryan cane on fir devereux after 20 min. Podge Doran for kirwan, Harry kehoe fir liam Ryan at half time, Jack o Connor for Roche

Giveitfong

Waterford’s defeat to Tipperary in last week’s National Hurling League game has demonstrated more forcibly than ever that Derek McGrath is not at the races as a senior intercounty manager.

Waterford were playing at home, before a large and potentially enthusiastic crowd, playing with a strong wind in the first half against a Tipperary team with just six of the players who started last year’s All-Ireland final. This was a perfect opportunity both to lay down a marker against Tipp and gain the victory that would secure our Division IA place for next year.

And what does he do? Once again, he decides to withdraw all but one of his players out the field, leaving Shane Bennett to battle it out alone against two markers. This is sheer lunacy. A couple of examples of what ensued:

In the 16th minute, Conor Gleeson picked up a loose ball in the Waterford half back line and sent a long ball into the Tipperary goalmouth. When he hit the ball, there was not a single Waterford player inside the Tipperary 65 metre line.

In the 33rd minute, Shane Fives hit a long ball from defence up the left wing. Shane Bennett (as usual) was the only Waterford player inside the Tipperary 45 metre line and was nowhere near where the ball landed. James Barry came out to collect the ball and drive it back into the Waterford half where Shane McNulty gathered and hit a long crossfield ball to the right wing with Bennett still the only Waterford player inside the 45 metre line. Bennett came out to the ball but lost possession to his dual markers with James Barry again effecting the clearance.

James Barry and Donagh Maher were the players who double-marked Bennett in the first half. Between them they got twelve possessions in that half; Bennett only got two. Waterford are going nowhere with a game plan where – even playing with the wind – they only have one forward consistently operating inside the 45 metre line and he gets two possessions in 36 minutes of hurling.

By contrast, even playing against the wind in the first half, Tipperary always kept two players close to the Waterford goal. In the All-Ireland final last year they played three full forwards from start to finish and won pulling up. A poster here has said that Waterford don’t have scoring forwards. The problem is that Waterford don’t have any forwards. To be more accurate they have one forward most of the time and no forward some of the time.

An even bigger problem than McGrath’s defensive formation is the fact that he has no system to create scoring opportunities when Waterford win the ball in defence or midfield. You can see the way Clare use pop passes and support runners to bring the ball out of defence and create openings to shoot for points from around the 50 metres mark. Tony Kelly gets a lot of scores this way. Dublin and Cork also try to do this.

Waterford do manage to get some scores from out the field, but too often they just give away hard-won possession by hitting long balls to no one in particular or to double-marked forwards. This has been the case since McGrath took over the Waterford job. Tipperary and Kilkenny, of course, just focus on getting early ball into the full forwards whom they know will be there and who are able to win their own ball. They also win All-Irelands.

Throughout McGrath’s period in charge, Waterford have been able to make up for the deficiencies of their defensive system on many occasions through sheer hard work and commitment, thereby containing their opponents’ scoring ability. However, this is never going to work in the championship where they will be matched for commitment as one gets to the closing stages. In this situation they need to score more than their opponents, and you need forwards to do this.

One would have thought that last year’s semi-final in Croke Park would have shown McGrath the light. Playing a relatively orthodox formation, Waterford got into a winning position only to throw it away by withdrawing into defence late on. Two weeks ago in Nowlan Park, Waterford again dominated the game for 45 minutes playing an orthodox formation, but suddenly switched into defensive mode and only managed to win in the end due to Kilkenny’s poor shooting.

Despite all this, last week’s game in Walsh Park was not nearly as one-sided as some people seem to think. Tipperary just edged the possession count by 143-135 and the shots at goal count by 34-30. Admittedly, Tipp hit a series of sloppy late wides when they had the game in the bag, but were it not for Austin Gleeson’s (first half) and Shane Bennett’s (second half) series of terrible wides, the game could have gone down to the wire.

And this was without Waterford bringing the same intensity to bear as they had the previous week against Kilkenny. It may be that Waterford were unable to reach the same level of intensity two weeks in a row. Or perhaps the players took on board Derek McGrath’s repeated – and ridiculous – assertion that Waterford are currently not up to Tipperary’s level. If Waterford had upped their intensity, or even used a couple of more forwards, they could well have won this game and sent their supporters home happy, rather than frustrated and despondent, as was the case last Sunday.

Not surprisingly, Tadhg de Búrca was Waterford’s top performer with 17 possessions (the same as against Kilkenny), followed by Austin Gleeson (13), Kevin Moran (11) and Conor Gleeson (10). Contrary to what appears to be a common view, Moran put in quite a good shift, especially in the first half, and had more possessions than against Kilkenny. The full tally of player possessions is given below.

Jake Dillon got his first possession in the 23rd minute. His second, a minute later, was 35 metres from his own goal. This was a player with the number 15 on his back. It is hard to fathom what his role is supposed to be in Derek McGrath’s game plan but it is rarely effective.

It is also difficult to figure out what Brian O’Halloran has to do to get a start from McGrath. In my recollection, he has always made an impact when introduced over the last year. Last Sunday he was only brought on when Colin Dunford, who had previously replaced Gavin O’Brien (who did well in the first half with seven possessions), got injured. In just eleven minutes on the pitch he managed seven possessions, including three shots at goal and two points. He has the priceless facility (which Jake Dillon doesn’t) to get on the ball, has skill and pace and protects the ball well when he runs with it (which cannot be said of Shane Bennett). He deserves better.

One final fact: Tom Devine’s first possession in the second half came in the 70th minute, which means he played 35 minutes without getting on the ball once.

Possession count: Regan, I (3); Fives S (7); Coughlan B (2); Connors N (7); Gleeson C (10); de Búrca T (17); McNulty S (6); O’Brien G (8); Moran K (11); Kearney M (8); Mahony P (6); Gleeson A (13); Bennett Shane (8); Devine T (9); Dillon J (6); Lyons D (3); Bennett Stephen (1); Dunford C (1); O’Halloran B (7); Shanahan M (2).

robopaddy2

Giveitfong wrote: »

Waterford’s defeat to Tipperary in last week’s National Hurling League game has demonstrated more forcibly than ever that Derek McGrath is not at the races as a senior intercounty manager.

 Waterford were playing at home, before a large and potentially enthusiastic crowd, playing with a strong wind in the first half against a Tipperary team with just six of the players who started last year’s All-Ireland final.  This was a perfect opportunity both to lay down a marker against Tipp and gain the victory that would secure our Division IA place for next year.

 And what does he do?  Once again, he decides to withdraw all but one of his players out the field, leaving Shane Bennett to battle it out alone against two markers.  This is sheer lunacy.  A couple of examples of what ensued:

 In the 16th minute, Conor Gleeson picked up a loose ball in the Waterford half back line and sent a long ball into the Tipperary goalmouth.  When he hit the ball, there was not a single Waterford player inside the Tipperary 65 metre line.

 In the 33rd minute, Shane Fives hit a long ball from defence up the left wing.  Shane Bennett (as usual) was the only Waterford player inside the Tipperary 45 metre line and was nowhere near where the ball landed.  James Barry came out to collect the ball and drive it back into the Waterford half where Shane McNulty gathered and hit a long crossfield ball to the right wing with Bennett still the only Waterford player inside the 45 metre line.  Bennett came out to the ball but lost possession to his dual markers with James Barry again effecting the clearance.

 James Barry and Donagh Maher were the players who double-marked Bennett in the first half.  Between them they got twelve possessions in that half; Bennett only got two.  Waterford are going nowhere with a game plan where – even playing with the wind – they only have one forward consistently operating inside the 45 metre line and he gets two possessions in 36 minutes of hurling.

 By contrast, even playing against the wind in the first half, Tipperary always kept two players close to the Waterford goal.  In the All-Ireland final last year they played three full forwards from start to finish and won pulling up.  A poster here has said that Waterford don’t have scoring forwards.  The problem is that Waterford don’t have any forwards.  To be more accurate they have one forward most of the time and no forward some of the time.

 An even bigger problem than McGrath’s defensive formation is the fact that he has no system to create scoring opportunities when Waterford win the ball in defence or midfield.  You can see the way Clare use pop passes and support runners to bring the ball out of defence and create openings to shoot for points from around the 50 metres mark.  Tony Kelly gets a lot of scores this way.  Dublin and Cork also try to do this.  

 Waterford do manage to get some scores from out the field, but too often they just give away hard-won possession by hitting long balls to no one in particular or to double-marked forwards.  This has been the case since McGrath took over the Waterford job. Tipperary and Kilkenny, of course, just focus on getting early ball into the full forwards whom they know will be there and who are able to win their own ball.  They also win All-Irelands.

 Throughout McGrath’s period in charge, Waterford have been able to make up for the deficiencies of their defensive system on many occasions through sheer hard work and commitment, thereby containing their opponents’ scoring ability.  However, this is never going to work in the championship where they will be matched for commitment as one gets to the closing stages.  In this situation they need to score more than their opponents, and you need forwards to do this.

 One would have thought that last year’s semi-final in Croke Park would have shown McGrath the light.  Playing a relatively orthodox formation, Waterford got into a winning position only to throw it away by withdrawing into defence late on.  Two weeks ago in Nowlan Park, Waterford again dominated the game for 45 minutes playing an orthodox formation, but suddenly switched into defensive mode and only managed to win in the end due to Kilkenny’s poor shooting.

 Despite all this, last week’s game in Walsh Park was not nearly as one-sided as some people seem to think.  Tipperary just edged the possession count by 143-135 and the shots at goal count by 34-30.  Admittedly, Tipp hit a series of sloppy late wides when they had the game in the bag, but were it not for Austin Gleeson’s (first half) and Shane Bennett’s (second half) series of terrible wides, the game could have gone down to the wire.

 And this was without Waterford bringing the same intensity to bear as they had the previous week against Kilkenny.  It may be that Waterford were unable to reach the same level of intensity two weeks in a row.  Or perhaps the players took on board Derek McGrath’s repeated – and ridiculous – assertion that Waterford are currently not up to Tipperary’s level.  If Waterford had upped their intensity, or even used a couple of more forwards, they could well have won this game and sent their supporters home happy, rather than frustrated and despondent, as was the case last Sunday.

 Not surprisingly, Tadhg de Búrca was Waterford’s top performer with 17 possessions (the same as against Kilkenny), followed by Austin Gleeson (13), Kevin Moran (11) and Conor Gleeson (10).  Contrary to what appears to be a common view, Moran put in quite a good shift, especially in the first half, and had more possessions than against Kilkenny.  The full tally of player possessions is given below.

 Jake Dillon got his first possession in the 23rd minute.  His second, a minute later, was 35 metres from his own goal.  This was a player with the number 15 on his back.  It is hard to fathom what his role is supposed to be in Derek McGrath’s game plan but it is rarely effective.

 It is also difficult to figure out what Brian O’Halloran has to do to get a start from McGrath.  In my recollection, he has always made an impact when introduced over the last year.  Last Sunday he was only brought on when Colin Dunford, who had previously replaced Gavin O’Brien (who did well in the first half with seven possessions), got injured.  In just eleven minutes on the pitch he managed seven possessions, including three shots at goal and two points.  He has the priceless facility (which Jake Dillon doesn’t) to get on the ball, has skill and pace and protects the ball well when he runs with it (which cannot be said of Shane Bennett).  He deserves better.

 One final fact: Tom Devine’s first possession in the second half came in the 70th minute, which means he played 35 minutes without getting on the ball once.

 Possession count: Regan, I (3); Fives S (7); Coughlan B (2); Connors N (7); Gleeson C (10); de Búrca T (17); McNulty S (6); O’Brien G (8); Moran K (11); Kearney M (8); Mahony P (6); Gleeson A (13); Bennett Shane (8); Devine T (9); Dillon J (6); Lyons D (3); Bennett Stephen (1); Dunford C (1); O’Halloran B (7); Shanahan M (2).

Very interesting stuff Giveitfon. Good that you back your opinions up with hard solid facts. Not enough of that on here.

Deise_2012

That is true, he does back himself very well with facts but I think it's too early to judge Mcgrath on this season's tactics...I mean he's still missing a few lads, I really do think he's not showing the full deck yet and I don't think we're gonna see it in this years league. He's not a fool, he knows well that the lads he has are more than ready to play an orthodox system. We've performed well in the league the last 2 years but just couldn't get past the semi final in August.....so what if we don't perform in March/April this year as long as we get the job done in August/September

I just think it's absolutely useless complaining about tactics already...wait until June, if we're still doing this one man ff line then, I'll be the first to admit we're playing the totally wrong style. He saw how we performed in the first game against KK last August....that's not just gone out of his head altogether...I like Mcgrath, the lads seem to respect him a lot...I'm not saying a word til we get to Championship time. But I believe he's going about things the right way, just be patient lads!

hardybuck

Giveitfong is probably one of the most respected and valuable posters on this thread. Thanks so much for your ongoing analysis, but I'd like to pick up on one of your main KPIs that you're very focused on - possessions.

Possessions gives you some indication of how busy a player is, but what the player does with that possession is much more relevant in my opinion.


How many times does a player get turned over in possession? How many turnovers did they make themselves? How many times to they make complete v incomplete passes? How many possession result in a score?

So, I think some of your points have relevance, e.g. Devine's first second half possession in the 70th minute definitely tells you something. But I don't think it's fair to say that de Burca is the best performer because he touched the ball 17 times. His 17 possessions potential could have led to a lot of Tipperary scores for example.

mountgomery burns

We literally could not have been closer to winning back to back league titles under McGrath. That would have doubled the total number of leagues we had previously won. That doesn't happen if your manager is conpletely clueless at inter county level.

Giveitfongs analysis is very detailed, far too detailed for a league match in February. Over analysis I would call it.

TheScoringGoal

I think the analysis is extremely interesting and league game or not I always enjoy it. I stand open to correction, but I think the possessions are to be viewed as their own stat and not as a performance rating? As I would agree that Tadgh De Burca won some good ball but used it poorly. The lack of forwards may have been an issue for him.

I would disagree on waterfords transition into attack being weak, I'd say the opposite. Waterford are normally good at scoring after winning possession and moving the ball quickly. While Jamie Barron was a massive loss in this regard, Gavin O Brien and Shane McNulty were both involved in this type of play.

I'd hope that there was a touch of keeping our powder dry as we set up extremely defensively. As another poster said, I'd rather judge later in the year.

One concern I would have is the form of some of our players. To be fair to Shane Bennett I can't remember when he would have last had a break between club, college and county. I'd like to see him sit out a couple of games and bring him back in. I wasn't too disappointed with Austin Gleeson. He won some good ball, although he had a few wides. I'd rather him do that than not win the ball at this time of year. Paidi Mahony has also had a quiet start to the year outside of frees.

I've been a fan of O Halloran since 2008(?) when he burned players for the minors in Walsh park against Cork before being bizzarely substituted. I'd hope he gets his chance this year but I'm not sure you can play him Shane Bennett and Colin Dunford in the same side.

PTH2009

If we lose Saturday than were going down a tough road, Even if we lose and then beat Cork the next week it still may not be enough as Ennis is a tough place too get result and Clare may need to win that game too

R3
Dublin vs Waterford
Kilkenny vs Cork
Tipperary vs Clare

expect Kilkenny too try and make a point vs Cork but Cork have too prove something too. Tipp could aim too win this game too deff secure there QF

R4 (Sat 11/Sun 12 Mar)
Tipperary vs Kilkenny
Waterford vs Cork
Clare vs Dublin

R5 (Sun 26 Mar)
Clare vs Waterford
Dublin vs Kilkenny
Cork vs Tipperary

Finishing 1st in 1A means an easy QF against either Kerry or Laois
2nd/3rd/4th 1A means a harder QF against either Limerick/Galway or Wexford. Wexford look to have 1st place in 1B secured

robopaddy2

Deise_2012 wrote: »

That is true, he does back himself very well with facts but I think it's too early to judge Mcgrath on this season's tactics...I mean he's still missing a few lads, I really do think he's not showing the full deck yet and I don't think we're gonna see it in this years league. He's not a fool, he knows well that the lads he has are more than ready to play an orthodox system. We've performed well in the league the last 2 years but just couldn't get past the semi final in August.....so what if we don't perform in March/April this year as long as we get the job done in August/September

I just think it's absolutely useless complaining about tactics already...wait until June, if we're still doing this one man ff line then, I'll be the first to admit we're playing the totally wrong style. He saw how we performed in the first game against KK last August....that's not just gone out of his head altogether...I like Mcgrath, the lads seem to respect him a lot...I'm not saying a word til we get to Championship time. But I believe he's going about things the right way, just be patient lads!

I'd admire your optimism. But I think how were setting up now is a fair indicator of how we'll set up in the championship. I think we'll see more of the same. That first game against KK last year people forget we didn't exactly go toe to toe with them. The vast majority of our scores would have come from way out the field. We crowded the middle third and outfought them in those areas. Not forgetting Austin Gleeson was just in-sane that day. It was one of the few big days the system actually clicked for us, but we still didn't have it in the tank to see it out. We hit a rake of wides that day too, which comes with the territory of the type of game we play. You might see us a little bit more orthodox at certain stages, but the sweeper and a vacant full forward line is here to stay, as long as McGrath is in charge anyway. The question is whether there is another level to it that we haven't seen yet, and whether it can take us any further than we already have.

tomwaterford

robopaddy2 wrote: »

I'd admire your optimism. But I think how were setting up now is a fair indicator of how we'll set up in the championship. I think we'll see more of the same. That first game against KK last year people forget we didn't exactly go toe to toe with them. The vast majority of our scores would have come from way out the field. We crowded the middle third and outfought them in those areas. Not forgetting Austin Gleeson was just in-sane that day. It was one of the few big days the system actually clicked for us, but we still didn't have it in the tank to see it out. We hit a rake of wides that day too, which comes with the territory of the type of game we play. You might see us a little bit more orthodox at certain stages, but the sweeper and a vacant full forward line is here to stay, as long as McGrath is in charge anyway. The question is whether there is another level to it that we haven't seen yet, and whether it can take us any further than we already have.

Waterford played with varying between 4 and 6 forwards v kk the first day???
As opposed the 1 man forward rubbish they attempted in the munster final



The fact the scores came from the middle thrid surly comes from the fact they targeted the kk half back and midfield??

robopaddy2

tomwaterford wrote: »

Waterford played with varying between 4 and 6 forwards v kk the first day???
As opposed the 1 man forward rubbish they attempted in the munster final



The fact the scores came from the middle thrid surly comes from the fact they targeted the kk half back and midfield??

I never said we didn't... but how many scores came from inside forward line? very few if I remember. Did we even come close to scoring a goal that day?

tomwaterford

robopaddy2 wrote: »

I never said we didn't...

You said we didnt exactly gp toe to toe with them....when its patently unture (particulary compared to the game plan last day)?


I had great optimism after them two games last year that we were going to push on and play to our strengths this year....

but tbh...im somewhat disillusioned by what ive seen now


TBH i think weve gone as far as we can with this system...its not as if we havnt the players to push on and put up big scores/exploit space of a more expansive game style