Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

robopaddy2

tomwaterford wrote: »

You said we didnt exactly gp toe to toe with them....when its patently unture (particulary compared to the game plan last day)?


I had great optimism after them two games last year that we were going to push on and play to our strengths this year....

but tbh...im somewhat disillusioned by what ive seen now


TBH i think weve gone as far as we can with this system...its not as if we havnt the players to push on and put up big scores/exploit space of a more expansive game style

Fair enough, but there's a bit of a myth about that game (and the subsequent game) that we hurled with free spirit and abandon, maybe in comparison to some of the other performances but it was still very structured. Bottom line is we weren't good enough to get over the line over those 2 games.
I totally agree about the system aswell, I also believe its only going to get us so far.  I cannot see how we can beat Tipp this year, maybe Kilkenny we might eventually be able to get past them as they do not have the quality they once had, but Tipp, with the quality of their forwards, the open gameplan they deploy, they made a mockery of our defensive system last year. They are a team we need to go toe-to-toe with. Its a pity because I feel after Tipp, we have the most talented group of forwards in the country. The like of Gleeson, Mahony, Shanahan, Curran, 2 Bennetts, O'Halloran, Dunford, Dillon, mikey Kearney etc,  throw in the likes of Moran, Brick, Devine, DJ Foran, monsters of men whoule would run through walls. , we have incredible options. We should have a lethal forward line that defences should fear. Not a non-existent one

cul beag

The most skillful game in the world and McGrath has dragged it down to a mixture of rugby and gaelic football played with sticks. We have the nucleus of a fantastic side if the proper players are chosen and left play more naturally and freely instead of being tied to defensive sh**e that was ripped apart by Tipp last year. I'm fed up of saying that he has brought this wonderful game of ours into disrepute with the tactics he employs instead of utilising the RIGHT players in a system that sees us going for the juggler in a more positive approach. The fact that it's still being discussed 3 YEARS after he implemented it tells us all we need to know about its failings. So far in this time we have seen the rucking and mauling lead us to one national title in winter months and nothing else. That alone should tell you that in the heat of championship in summer months this tripe doesn't work. But as long as we are competitive as he says and these lads are given time to develop it's fine and it buys him more time to destroy these naturally gifted hurlers. You don't see Michael Ryan in Tipp destroying Callinane,Bubbles and McGrath by sending them back to their own 45 metre line with scrum caps and telling them to create a maul and drive forward from there! Die with your boots on instead of hiding behind the wall waiting for the inevitable to happen anyway!

JesusRef

Giveitfong wrote: »

Waterford’s defeat to Tipperary in last week’s National Hurling League game has demonstrated more forcibly than ever that Derek McGrath is not at the races as a senior intercounty manager.

Waterford were playing at home, before a large and potentially enthusiastic crowd, playing with a strong wind in the first half against a Tipperary team with just six of the players who started last year’s All-Ireland final. This was a perfect opportunity both to lay down a marker against Tipp and gain the victory that would secure our Division IA place for next year.

And what does he do? Once again, he decides to withdraw all but one of his players out the field, leaving Shane Bennett to battle it out alone against two markers. This is sheer lunacy. A couple of examples of what ensued:

In the 16th minute, Conor Gleeson picked up a loose ball in the Waterford half back line and sent a long ball into the Tipperary goalmouth. When he hit the ball, there was not a single Waterford player inside the Tipperary 65 metre line.

In the 33rd minute, Shane Fives hit a long ball from defence up the left wing. Shane Bennett (as usual) was the only Waterford player inside the Tipperary 45 metre line and was nowhere near where the ball landed. James Barry came out to collect the ball and drive it back into the Waterford half where Shane McNulty gathered and hit a long crossfield ball to the right wing with Bennett still the only Waterford player inside the 45 metre line. Bennett came out to the ball but lost possession to his dual markers with James Barry again effecting the clearance.

James Barry and Donagh Maher were the players who double-marked Bennett in the first half. Between them they got twelve possessions in that half; Bennett only got two. Waterford are going nowhere with a game plan where – even playing with the wind – they only have one forward consistently operating inside the 45 metre line and he gets two possessions in 36 minutes of hurling.

By contrast, even playing against the wind in the first half, Tipperary always kept two players close to the Waterford goal. In the All-Ireland final last year they played three full forwards from start to finish and won pulling up. A poster here has said that Waterford don’t have scoring forwards. The problem is that Waterford don’t have any forwards. To be more accurate they have one forward most of the time and no forward some of the time.

An even bigger problem than McGrath’s defensive formation is the fact that he has no system to create scoring opportunities when Waterford win the ball in defence or midfield. You can see the way Clare use pop passes and support runners to bring the ball out of defence and create openings to shoot for points from around the 50 metres mark. Tony Kelly gets a lot of scores this way. Dublin and Cork also try to do this.

Waterford do manage to get some scores from out the field, but too often they just give away hard-won possession by hitting long balls to no one in particular or to double-marked forwards. This has been the case since McGrath took over the Waterford job. Tipperary and Kilkenny, of course, just focus on getting early ball into the full forwards whom they know will be there and who are able to win their own ball. They also win All-Irelands.

Throughout McGrath’s period in charge, Waterford have been able to make up for the deficiencies of their defensive system on many occasions through sheer hard work and commitment, thereby containing their opponents’ scoring ability. However, this is never going to work in the championship where they will be matched for commitment as one gets to the closing stages. In this situation they need to score more than their opponents, and you need forwards to do this.

One would have thought that last year’s semi-final in Croke Park would have shown McGrath the light. Playing a relatively orthodox formation, Waterford got into a winning position only to throw it away by withdrawing into defence late on. Two weeks ago in Nowlan Park, Waterford again dominated the game for 45 minutes playing an orthodox formation, but suddenly switched into defensive mode and only managed to win in the end due to Kilkenny’s poor shooting.

Despite all this, last week’s game in Walsh Park was not nearly as one-sided as some people seem to think. Tipperary just edged the possession count by 143-135 and the shots at goal count by 34-30. Admittedly, Tipp hit a series of sloppy late wides when they had the game in the bag, but were it not for Austin Gleeson’s (first half) and Shane Bennett’s (second half) series of terrible wides, the game could have gone down to the wire.

And this was without Waterford bringing the same intensity to bear as they had the previous week against Kilkenny. It may be that Waterford were unable to reach the same level of intensity two weeks in a row. Or perhaps the players took on board Derek McGrath’s repeated – and ridiculous – assertion that Waterford are currently not up to Tipperary’s level. If Waterford had upped their intensity, or even used a couple of more forwards, they could well have won this game and sent their supporters home happy, rather than frustrated and despondent, as was the case last Sunday.

Not surprisingly, Tadhg de Búrca was Waterford’s top performer with 17 possessions (the same as against Kilkenny), followed by Austin Gleeson (13), Kevin Moran (11) and Conor Gleeson (10). Contrary to what appears to be a common view, Moran put in quite a good shift, especially in the first half, and had more possessions than against Kilkenny. The full tally of player possessions is given below.

Jake Dillon got his first possession in the 23rd minute. His second, a minute later, was 35 metres from his own goal. This was a player with the number 15 on his back. It is hard to fathom what his role is supposed to be in Derek McGrath’s game plan but it is rarely effective.

It is also difficult to figure out what Brian O’Halloran has to do to get a start from McGrath. In my recollection, he has always made an impact when introduced over the last year. Last Sunday he was only brought on when Colin Dunford, who had previously replaced Gavin O’Brien (who did well in the first half with seven possessions), got injured. In just eleven minutes on the pitch he managed seven possessions, including three shots at goal and two points. He has the priceless facility (which Jake Dillon doesn’t) to get on the ball, has skill and pace and protects the ball well when he runs with it (which cannot be said of Shane Bennett). He deserves better.

One final fact: Tom Devine’s first possession in the second half came in the 70th minute, which means he played 35 minutes without getting on the ball once.

Possession count: Regan, I (3); Fives S (7); Coughlan B (2); Connors N (7); Gleeson C (10); de Búrca T (17); McNulty S (6); O’Brien G (8); Moran K (11); Kearney M (8); Mahony P (6); Gleeson A (13); Bennett Shane (8); Devine T (9); Dillon J (6); Lyons D (3); Bennett Stephen (1); Dunford C (1); O’Halloran B (7); Shanahan M (2).

If McGrath does have a plan to beat Tipp, or if he is to try somwthing different this year, why would he be doing it in February?

tomwaterford

JesusRef wrote: »

If McGrath does have a plan to beat Tipp, or if he is to try somwthing different this year, why would he be doing it in February?

Practice makes perfect?


Why not have tried out the plan for 40 mins or so and see will it work?

It's a bit naive to build your whole year around a certain gameplan and not try it out beforehand?



I was genuinely looking forward to this league after the 2 semis last year v kk....taught Ya, fcuk it....we'll push on,use the skill set of players we have at our disposal and possibly make the games enjoyable


Do yoy think he's gettin the most out the players he has at his disposal.....do you think they are playing to the strong points of the team


There's no reason a half forward line of mahoney, shane Bennett and maurices shanahan couldn't at least break even with the tipp half back line?




We only had to look at the munster final last year where tipp just simply by passed the congestion of midfield to see that the way to destroy the system was astonishing in its simplicity

Fred C Dobbs

Agree with previous comments regarding Brian O'Halloran (re Tipp match) ; even allowing for fact that the game was breaking up when he came on, he showed plenty of energy in showing for the ball and took his scores well. Indeed, what does he have to do to start a match. 
With the biggest crowd in the 'sports field' for many a day, that match was diabolical, definitely not helped by the length of the grass. The possession stats can be misleading, as someone else pointed (there was one player in particular who got plenty of possession but fumbled with it or lost possession more often than not). 
Croke Park this Saturday should be a good occasion (you never get tired of going to see Waterford play there) ; at least the grass will be shorter than the last day ; pity the Cuala lads are not available as that would ensure a sterner test and truer measure of where we are.

tomwaterford

Fred C Dobbs wrote: »

Agree with previous comments regarding Brian O'Halloran (re Tipp match) ; even allowing for fact that the game was breaking up when he came on, he showed plenty of energy in showing for the ball and took his scores well. Indeed, what does he have to do to start a match. 
With the biggest crowd in the 'sports field' for many a day, that match was diabolical, definitely not helped by the length of the grass. The possession stats can be misleading, as someone else pointed (there was one player in particular who got plenty of possession but fumbled with it or lost possession more often than not). 
Croke Park this Saturday should be a good occasion (you never get tired of going to see Waterford play there) ; at least the grass will be shorter than the last day ; pity the Cuala lads are not available as that would ensure a sterner test and truer measure of where we are.

Would we be correct in saying waterford seniors havnt won in croke park sInce 08?

Be good to stop that monkey from building

JesusRef

tomwaterford wrote: »

Practice makes perfect?


Why not have tried out the plan for 40 mins or so and see will it work?

It's a bit naive to build your whole year around a certain gameplan and not try it out beforehand?



I was genuinely looking forward to this league after the 2 semis last year v kk....taught Ya, fcuk it....we'll push on,use the skill set of players we have at our disposal and possibly make the games enjoyable


Do yoy think he's gettin the most out the players he has at his disposal.....do you think they are playing to the strong points of the team


There's no reason a half forward line of mahoney, shane Bennett and maurices shanahan couldn't at least break even with the tipp half back line?




We only had to look at the munster final last year where tipp just simply by passed the congestion of midfield to see that the way to destroy the system was astonishing in its simplicity

We made the last 2 league finals, winning one - we were probably the fittest team in the country in April both times, whats the point in doing that again?

I would be saying dont invest much in the league this time around, be at you best for 6-7 months time

PTH2009

JesusRef wrote: »

We made the last 2 league finals, winning one - we were probably the fittest team in the country in April both times, whats the point in doing that again?

I would be saying dont invest much in the league this time around, be at you best for 6-7 months time

Creates a winning mentality. Fair play to the lads to be fully fit so early in the season I'd be gone after 1 training session I'd say lol

Next year the season will only be from Jan-Aug (normally is bar 2 teams) meaning the league will be run off a lot quicker and less time too experiment

hurler on de ditch

JesusRef wrote: »

If McGrath does have a plan to beat Tipp, or if he is to try somwthing different this year, why would he be doing it in February?

Jesus wept

enoughtaken

Could see us having a strong team out Saturday. Would like to see Brian O'Halloran given the full match. Interesting to see who will be in goal. We should be to strong for the dubs. Nice to able to play in Croke Park and I think it's important we get the win.

chinguetti

My memory might be wrong on this but didn't Jim McGuinness used the League to test run Donegal's defensive plan with a few minutes at a time in each game? And used it in a full match when there was no cameras present so that by the Championship, they were fully up to speed with it.

In the 2 matches thus far, I don't think there's been any change in the plan that I can see. If ahead, retreat backwards in the last 20 minutes and cling on hopefully for dear life. Or if behind, don't try and win the match.

The system has alot going for it but it needs to become a bit more attack focused or a narrow semi final defeat in August well be the best we can get. 3 years of the same system will be easily sorted by other teams at this stage you would think.

PTH2009

enoughtaken wrote: »

Could see us having a strong team out Saturday. Would like to see Brian O'Halloran given the full match. Interesting to see who will be in goal. We should be to strong for the dubs. Nice to able to play in Croke Park and I think it's important we get the win.

We can't take the dubs for granted and we need a win. I'd start our strongest team possible and go out to make a statement. It's nice for players and supporters to get an evening out in Croke Park and as we all knw we badly need a win up there

Still expecting the same approach as the last 2 games and a nervy game

Dublin Dave 2014

With many voicing concerns with waterford brand of hurling in our first two games , I share this concern . I feel we have without doubt some very capable forwards , capable of causing havoc on many great defences , however these players must be getting very frustrated with our game plan . While winning the league has no real importance , we have three league games where we need to implement our future game plan. It will not be possible to turn up in our first championship game & change our game plan . This needs to be implemented now so all players & extended panel are very familiar with same . Waterford u21's were scoring goals for fun in 2016 , great to watch & very effective , all Ireland champions ! Waterford reverted to a defensive game plan in the second half against kk , if there was another 5 minutes we may have been beaten , we were capable of attacking kk in the second half but failed to do so !
Would be great to see Steven Bennett, Maurice & Patrick Curren line out in croke park being fed with good quality ball .

mickmackmcgoo

Lots of negativity around here about systems and mcgrath and lots of it is merited. People calling for some of the under 21 to be fast tracked on to the team etc . The league will quite rightly be used to give some their chance but it's all about the championship and having our best 15 out and being able to outscore teams like Tipp and kk etc .
If I was to pick what I'd like to see as a starting team then it would be made up of our established players.

O Keeffe
Fives. Coughlan. Connors
Darragh Fives . De Burca. A Gleeson
Moran. Barron.
Brick. Padraic. Brian o Halloran
Curran . Maurice . Stephen Bennett .

HillFarmer

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Lots of negativity around here about systems and mcgrath and lots of it is merited. People calling for some of the under 21 to be fast tracked on to the team etc . The league will quite rightly be used to give some their chance but it's all about the championship and having our best 15 out and being able to outscore teams like Tipp and kk etc .
If I was to pick what I'd like to see as a starting team then it would be made up of our established players.

O Keeffe
Fives. Coughlan. Connors
Darragh Fives . De Burca. A Gleeson
Moran. Barron.
Brick. Padraic. Brian o Halloran
Curran . Maurice . Stephen Bennett .

I feel we are lacking forwards in the likes of Tipps calibre.
For me I would love to stick Austin Gleeson Centre forward and leave him there for good. Backs wise, I think we have plenty of cover with the likes of Fives De Burca etc.
Just my two pence worth.

Deise_2012

Gleeson has to play in the forwards

robopaddy2

Sean Power reappointed as u21 manager for another term

hurler on de ditch

HillFarmer wrote: »

I feel we are lacking forwards in the likes of Tipps calibre.
For me I would love to stick Austin Gleeson Centre forward and leave him there for good. Backs wise, I think we have plenty of cover with the likes of Fives De Burca etc.
Just my two pence worth.

i'd have no problem with Gleeson up front but he would find himself alone or possibly with one other up with him surrounded by at least four backs and that's with the goalie to beat as well ,you could stick Dj Carey,Joe Canning,Paul Flynn ,Dan Shanahan,Eddie Brennan etc etc up there but when you are outnumbered you are going to find it extremely difficult to have an impact,it is hard enough to beat Tipp,KK or Cork with six forwards but it is damn near impossible with two

Horseboxhead

I actually think Derek got exactly what he wanted out of the first two Games, we beat kilkenny , without playing well, got beaten by Tipp[could have read it was going to happen as you were listening to Derek teeing up the result on the wed before the friday], and again i thought did not play well, but not really too upset with our form, as if you look at the results over the first two games, looks as if Tipp are the one team, that have decided yeah we're good enough to win the league and get the two in a row, and with the panel of Players they have , not really surprising.
T de Burca has been our major plus , seems to have stepped it up , a level from anything he has done in the last two years, his feet seem to be quicker , his decision making better and again slightly quicker, big worry is though playing him deep and getting him striking alot of ball seems to kill us , and its not really his fault, but i'm of the opinion now, that he needs to feed the ball out now rather than just hit it long, as when teams transition the ball quickly it does more often than not cause us major problems.
But we have not started the league , for the first time in two years like we want to win it, and do we ?, like really want to win another league ?, only if it makes us better placed for a serious run at the All Ireland , and if last year showed us anything , it was hurling is different in August and the teams that do well, arrive there as fresh as they can be, unless you have serious options like Tipp currently, and Kilkenny 3 years ago, so no point in going mental, will wait till july, before we really know what's what, all this League stuff , your never too sure what's going on.

hurler on de ditch

Horseboxhead wrote: »

I actually think Derek got exactly what he wanted out of the first two Games, we beat kilkenny , without playing well, got beaten by Tipp[could have read it was going to happen as you were listening to Derek teeing up the result on the wed before the friday], and again i thought did not play well, but not really too upset with our form, as if you look at the results over the first two games, looks as if Tipp are the one team, that have decided yeah we're good enough to win the league and get the two in a row, and with the panel of Players they have , not really surprising.
T de Burca has been our major plus , seems to have stepped it up , a level from anything he has done in the last two years, his feet seem to be quicker , his decision making better and again slightly quicker, big worry is though playing him deep and getting him striking alot of ball seems to kill us , and its not really his fault, but i'm of the opinion now, that he needs to feed the ball out now rather than just hit it long, as when teams transition the ball quickly it does more often than not cause us major problems.
But we have not started the league , for the first time in two years like we want to win it, and do we ?, like really want to win another league ?, only if it makes us better placed for a serious run at the All Ireland , and if last year showed us anything , it was hurling is different in August and the teams that do well, arrive there as fresh as they can be, unless you have serious options like Tipp currently, and Kilkenny 3 years ago, so no point in going mental, will wait till july, before we really know what's what, all this League stuff , your never too sure what's going on.

sweet jesus

thesultan

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

sweet jesus

The thing is Tipp can beat the sweeper system. They have it trialed in training. We need to go toe to toe with them and not have paudie Maher and Barrett sweeping mad.

Jjjjjjjbarry

If we continue with a sweeper system, TDB needs a different colour helmet. :pac:

Clonmel1000

Horseboxhead wrote: »

I actually think Derek got exactly what he wanted out of the first two Games, we beat kilkenny , without playing well, got beaten by Tipp[could have read it was going to happen as you were listening to Derek teeing up the result on the wed before the friday], and again i thought did not play well, but not really too upset with our form, as if you look at the results over the first two games, looks as if Tipp are the one team, that have decided yeah we're good enough to win the league and get the two in a row, and with the panel of Players they have , not really surprising.
T de Burca has been our major plus , seems to have stepped it up , a level from anything he has done in the last two years, his feet seem to be quicker , his decision making better and again slightly quicker, big worry is though playing him deep and getting him striking alot of ball seems to kill us , and its not really his fault, but i'm of the opinion now, that he needs to feed the ball out now rather than just hit it long, as when teams transition the ball quickly it does more often than not cause us major problems.
But we have not started the league , for the first time in two years like we want to win it, and do we ?, like really want to win another league ?, only if it makes us better placed for a serious run at the All Ireland , and if last year showed us anything , it was hurling is different in August and the teams that do well, arrive there as fresh as they can be, unless you have serious options like Tipp currently, and Kilkenny 3 years ago, so no point in going mental, will wait till july, before we really know what's what, all this League stuff , your never too sure what's going on.

Do you believe that? Honestly?

mountgomery burns

Clonmel1000 wrote: »

Do you believe that? Honestly?

I'd say given he said he probably does. Care to share your own thoughts or what you disagree with?

hurler on de ditch

mountgomery burns wrote: »

I'd say given he said he probably does. Care to share your own thoughts or what you disagree with?

what do you agree with

Twiceasnice97

HillFarmer wrote: »

I feel we are lacking forwards in the likes of Tipps calibre.
For me I would love to stick Austin Gleeson Centre forward and leave him there for good. Backs wise, I think we have plenty of cover with the likes of Fives De Burca etc.
Just my two pence worth.

how can you tell?

it would appear that McGrath is of the view that Waterford lack forwards of any caliber.

PTH2009

thesultan wrote: »

The thing is Tipp can beat the sweeper system. They have it trialed in training. We need to go toe to toe with them and not have paudie Maher and Barrett sweeping mad.

Dublin can beat it as well remember last years game in Walsh Park

hopefully a dry night saturday, teams should be announced 2morrow night

Waterford Footballers play Westmeath in Dungarvan Sunday at 2pm

tomwaterford

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

what do you agree with

Yoy first two lines essebtially said mcgrath got what he wanted outta first two games...beat kk platibg poor and to loose to tipp?

What manager wants his team to play poorly and/or lose?


We are headed for a repeat of the munster final in the championship v tipp....if we continue to do the same.....with a full forward line like that...short of playing another sweeper behind our full back line....its a pure waste of time

tommylad1212

Football in Ardmore

robopaddy2

Clonmel1000 wrote: »

Do you believe that? Honestly?

I'm guessing by what he says by 'getting what he wanted out of the first 2 games' it was in terms of the system operated and players used. He didn't say he agreed with McGrath's approach. Obviously he didn't play to lose and I agree that going all out for the league isn't the priority this year. Last year we beat KK and Tipp in the league, didn't  mean anything in the summer.

DLS2THECORE

Was at the game in Kilmore last Sunday, a good workout for both teams. Waterford had impressive performances from Darragh Fives, Daragh Lyons, Maurice and Brian O'Halloran to name a few. An interesting feature was the deployment of Noel Connors in midfield. The final score was Waterford 0.22 Wexford 1.14. The starting team was SOK, Daragh Lyons, Shane McNulty, Seamus Keating, Stephen Daniels, Darragh Fives, Philip Mahony, Stephen Roche, Noel Connors, Tommy Ryan, Billy Nolan, DJ Foran, Maurice Shan, Stephen Bennett, Brian O'Halloran. Subs used were Shane Fives, Tadhg De Burca, Kevin Moran amongst others

dubcat51

Waterfords biggest problem imo is mc graths reluctance to go away from the sweeper.this was clearly shown up in nowlan park.they spent 5 min more on the dressing room at half time getting ready to revert to type.they nearly got caught.a week later at Home to tipp they play a sweeper with 2pts already on the board in the league.mc grath clearly doesnt have faith in your squad 15 v15.

PTH2009

dubcat51 wrote: »

Waterfords biggest problem imo is mc graths reluctance to go away from the sweeper.this was clearly shown up in nowlan park.they spent 5 min more on the dressing room at half time getting ready to revert to type.they nearly got caught.a week later at Home to tipp they play a sweeper with 2pts already on the board in the league.mc grath clearly doesnt have faith in your squad 15 v15.

Pretty sad case if he thinks that, he said the under 21 AI win last year was the equivalent of winning the Conference Championship in the soccer and other teams were weak or something like that. We have forwards that are well able to score and we have some of the best Midfielders and defenders around. From our viewpoint the players seem happy with the system and have the utmost respect for McGrath

Clare have a new management team and are moving away from there defensive style that they played with Davy. When McGrath calls it a day with us, our new management team might change our playing Style. I believe Derek has done a very good job and would love nothing more than him winning an All Ireland with us

3ships

dubcat51 wrote: »

Waterfords biggest problem imo is mc graths reluctance to go away from the sweeper.this was clearly shown up in nowlan park.they spent 5 min more on the dressing room at half time getting ready to revert to type.they nearly got caught.a week later at Home to tipp they play a sweeper with 2pts already on the board in the league.mc grath clearly doesnt have faith in your squad 15 v15.

Waterford don't play with a sweeper. They do empty the full forward line to cover the opposition dropping back their half forwards. De Burca just holds his position and it looks like he is a sweeper. In the first half Waterford played 15v15 against Kilkenny created chances; ... in the second half ... well I'll just quote Anthony Daly in the Examiner:

"Walter Walsh came on at half-time and made a difference but Kilkenny had to come deeper to get their hands on the ball. Cody goes on about his ambivalence towards tactics but they blatantly brought a man back to provide more cover in front of Padraig Walsh at full-back"

dubcat51

Simply imo mcgrath fear of losing comes first.more thought given to defence than attack.(he doesnt believe really deep down your good enough.)he hopes.

dubcat51

De burca swept in front of your full back line for the last 20 min in nowlan pk.

danganabu

3ships wrote: »

Waterford don't play with a sweeper.

to be fair this is true, they play about 4 of the feckin things!!

blueflame

I am fed up of listening to the "sweeper" debate and how it is at the route of all our evils. Playing a sweeper is nothing new I remember Shane Ahearne playing that role for Waterford in a number of games over 20 years ago, especially if the day in question involved a strong gale.

Playing a sweeper indicates that the player tasked with the job is playing behind an orthdox half back line with two wing backs and a center back, hence he is "sweeping" up behind the line. Tadgh deBurca plays as a deep lying center-back and we flood the area in-front of him with lots of bodies. and this is the problem.

If we were to play an orthodox sweeper system, you could take one man out of the full forward line to play sweeper but you must keep a minimum of two men inside, ideally leaving the opposing full back as the spare man to take the ball. The fact that the sweeper operates effectively as a loose man they should have the time and space to allow them to sweep behind mopping up loose ball and then launching attacks by causing overlaps by carrying the ball out or by delivering quality ball into the corners where the corner forward can isolate the corner back or alternatively cause the full back to vacate the space in front of goal and risk leaving the other corner back isolated on his man.

Now compare that with what we are doing, De Burca is being made to sit deep, giving the Center-Foward all the space in the world. We try to combat this by all but emptying our full forward and half forward lines, flooding midfield with bodies and trying to "break". Unfortunately this restricts us to looking for short very high risk passes in an area of the field that is so congested that turnovers interceptions mistakes block and hooks are bound to happen with regularity. How many scores have we given way over the last 18 months particularly by getting caught trying to break out or make short flick passes. The big problem here is that every time you make such a mistake and concede a score, you have to work twice as hard to get a score back and without forwards that is a major issue. It also allows other teams to push on to us and apply serious pressure on deBurca so he does not have time to deliver quality ball, he is either hitting it under pressure to know one or having to break a tackle. The alternative is to hitting long balls to a seriously outnumbered froward or to nobody at all and the ball comes straight back with interest.

I fear that Derek has become almost blinded by fear. Sport is about defending and scoring in equal measure. Our focus is almost entirely on defending in our half and about reducing the goal count against us and depending on long range shots from most of our scores. Regrettably the set up we have means that as soon as we concede even one goal we are under serious pressure. Compare that set up to the first half against KK last year when we were othordox, we conceded two early goals but still stormed straight back at them and competed on an equal footing

I am fed up of hearing that the management team were trying to push players forward from the line and it is not the managements fault, the players are not responding. If this is really the case why have management not taken issue with players who fail to respond and put in players who will do what they are told - that is managements job. Quite simply as I see it, we have spent three years drumming into players to fall back and defend, they now do it as an automatic default and management are quite happy to let it happen and just play at trying to push them forward. Maybe I am totally wrong, maybe i am totally naive but I genuinely believe that if we want to have a real shot at winning the All Ireland we must adopt a more adventurous and attack minded approach combined with a massive work ethic in all parts of the field.

I watched Shane Bennett last week against Tipp and while the lad was having a bit of a stinker in terms of scoring, his work rate was phenomenal, he did not give Tipp players any time on the ball, he was chasing and harassing them constantly, nothing was a lost even though he was out numbered and on his own he never stopped. If we get that kind of commitment from all our forwards (and i believe we can) we can match the best. As regards the U21 All Ireland being the Vauxhaul Conference, the U21s could only beat what was in front of them. No one is asking for the U21 team to play in the Senior Championship - we are talking about taking the nucleus of a very good U21 side and adding it to a very strong panel of very good players who if left, are more than capable of competing against any team in the country - in case any doubts this the following players were not under 21 last year and were not elegible for the Vauxhaul Conference!!!!!

Socky, Iggy, Shane Fives, Barry Coughlan, Noel Connors, Tadgh DeBurca, Darragh Fives, Philip Mahony, Jamie Barron, Kevin Moran, Pauric Mahony, Brick Walsh, Jake Dillon, Maurice Shanahan, Colin Dunford, Brian O'Halloran - just to name a few.


Maybe, just maybe with a bit of confidence in the ability of our players we could add those from the U21 to this lot and we might just have a panel that could win an All Ireland. - Remember of the players who are being added to the mix, some of these, namely Austin Gleeson, Shane Bennett, Stephen Bennett, Patrick Curran, and Tom Devine are in at least their third year at senior level

danganabu

Very good synopsis there blueflame and of course you are 100% correct in that what Waterford are doing is not what would typically be associated with a ''sweeper'' system, my previous comment was of course tongue in cheek.

While I would agree that in order to take the next step Waterford will need to commit more men to the forward line and return at least partially to an orthodox line-up it should not be forgotten the huge progress McGrath has overseen and also why this tactic was introduced and evolved, IMO and you may disagree, the problems it was introduced to mask have not gone away, a FB line of Fives, Coughlan and Connors playing in a 15 v 15 formation would be cleaned by the top teams. You actually touched on it in your own post, they did it in the first half against KK and were opened up, and that was nowhere even near a top KK forward line.

As with most things the answer probably lies somewhere in between the current set-up and 15 v 15. An orthodox sweeper as you described above, although more covering the FB line as opposed to sweeping behind the HB line may very well be the answer.

PTH2009

The wet Weather on Sat not going to suite us

mountgomery burns

The current system may not be the optimal solution, but I have never seen an "orthodox" sweeper work effectively. Probably because the teams that tried it weren't good enough.

cul beag

Is it being televised on Saturday evening?

3ships

cul beag wrote: »

Is it being televised on Saturday evening?

Eirsport

PTH2009

3ships wrote: »

Eirsport

Yeah coverage starts on Eir Sport 2 and Premier Sports at 16.30 Sat. Showing a replay of the match on Eir Sport 1 at 23.15

Deise_2012

Are there any replays on Sun morn PTH?

HillFarmer

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

i'd have no problem with Gleeson up front but he would find himself alone or possibly with one other up with him surrounded by at least four backs and that's with the goalie to beat as well ,you could stick Dj Carey,Joe Canning,Paul Flynn ,Dan Shanahan,Eddie Brennan etc etc up there but when you are outnumbered you are going to find it extremely difficult to have an impact,it is hard enough to beat Tipp,KK or Cork with six forwards but it is damn near impossible with two

Fair point

PTH2009

Deise_2012 wrote: »

Are there any replays on Sun morn PTH?

https://www.eirsport.ie/tv-guides

Don't think so but they might show highlights on RTE and TG4 Sunday

shamco

blueflame wrote: »

I am fed up of listening to the "sweeper" debate and how it is at the route of all our evils. Playing a sweeper is nothing new  I remember Shane Ahearne playing that role for Waterford in a number of games over 20 years ago, especially if the day in question involved a strong gale.

Playing a sweeper indicates that the player tasked with the job is playing behind an orthdox half back line with two wing backs and a center back, hence he is "sweeping" up behind the line.  Tadgh deBurca plays as a deep lying center-back and we flood the area in-front of him with lots of bodies. and this is the problem.

If we were to play an orthodox sweeper system, you could take one man out of the full forward line to play sweeper but you must keep a minimum of two men inside,  ideally leaving the opposing full back as the spare man to take the ball.  The fact that the sweeper operates effectively as a loose man they should have the time and  space to allow them to sweep behind mopping up loose ball and then launching attacks by causing overlaps by carrying the ball out or by delivering quality ball into the corners where the corner forward can isolate the corner back or alternatively cause the full back to vacate the space in front of goal and risk leaving the other corner back isolated on his man.

Now compare that with what we are doing, De Burca is being made to sit deep, giving the Center-Foward all the space in the world. We try to combat this by all but emptying our full forward and half forward lines, flooding midfield with bodies and trying to "break".   Unfortunately this restricts us to looking for short very high risk passes in an area of the field that is so congested  that turnovers interceptions mistakes block and hooks are bound to happen with regularity. How many scores have we given way over the last 18 months particularly by getting caught trying to break out or make short flick passes.  The big problem here is that every time you make such a mistake and concede a score, you have to work twice as hard to get a score back and without forwards that is a major issue. It also allows other teams to push on to us and apply serious pressure on deBurca so he does not have time to deliver quality ball, he is either hitting it under pressure to know one or having to break a tackle.  The alternative is to hitting long balls to a seriously outnumbered froward or to nobody at all and the ball comes straight back with interest.  

I fear that Derek has become almost blinded by fear. Sport is about defending and scoring in equal measure. Our focus is almost entirely on defending in our half and about reducing the goal count against us and depending on long range shots from most of our scores. Regrettably the set up we have means that as soon as we concede even one goal we are under serious pressure.  Compare that set up to the first half against KK last year when we were othordox, we conceded two early goals but still stormed straight back at them and competed on an equal footing

I am fed up of hearing that the management team were trying to push players forward from the line and it is not the managements fault, the players are not responding.  If this is really the case why have management not taken issue with players who fail to respond and put in players who will do what they are told - that is managements job.  Quite simply as I see it, we have spent three years drumming into players to fall back and defend,  they now do it as an automatic default and  management are quite happy to let it happen and just play at trying to push them forward.   Maybe I am totally wrong, maybe i am totally naive but I genuinely believe that if we want to have a real shot at winning the All Ireland we must adopt a more adventurous and attack minded approach combined with a massive work ethic in all parts of the field.

I watched Shane Bennett last week against Tipp and while the lad was having a bit of a stinker in terms of scoring, his work rate was phenomenal, he did not give Tipp players any time on the ball, he was chasing and harassing them constantly, nothing was a lost even though he was out numbered and on his own he never stopped.  If we get that kind of commitment from all our forwards (and i believe we can) we can match the best.  As regards the U21 All Ireland being the Vauxhaul Conference, the U21s could only beat what was in front of them.  No one is asking  for the U21 team to play in the Senior Championship - we are talking about taking the nucleus of a very good U21 side and adding it to a very strong panel of very good players who if left, are more than capable of competing against any team in the country - in case any doubts this the following players were not under 21 last year and were not elegible for the Vauxhaul Conference!!!!!

Socky, Iggy, Shane Fives, Barry Coughlan, Noel Connors, Tadgh DeBurca, Darragh Fives, Philip Mahony, Jamie Barron, Kevin Moran, Pauric Mahony, Brick Walsh, Jake Dillon, Maurice Shanahan, Colin Dunford, Brian O'Halloran - just to name a few.  


Maybe, just maybe with a bit of confidence in the ability of our players we could add those from the U21 to this lot and we might just have a panel that could win an All Ireland.  - Remember of the players who are being added to the mix, some of these, namely Austin Gleeson, Shane Bennett, Stephen Bennett, Patrick Curran, and Tom Devine are in at least their third year at senior level

What you are saying is very similar to what Clare people were saying when Davy was in charge. I think your points are entirely correct and the only time deviated from these tactics they won the AI.

danganabu

PTH2009 wrote: »

The wet Weather on Sat not going to suite us

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion, how on earth would a wet day suit Dublin more than Waterford?

blueflame

There is a lot of talk about how far we have progressed under current managment, but what is the starting point people are looking at for this:

In 2013 we played 5 league games beat Clare by 1 pt in Ennis, Drew with Cork in Dungarvan, Lost to KK in Nolan Park by 5 pts, Beat Tipp in Walsh Park by 1 pt and lost to Galway in Walsh Park by 3 pts. Finished the league with 5 points avoided relegation playoff and missed out on League Semi-Final place . We conceded 4 goals in those five league games -an average of 0.8 goals conceded per game

In the All-Ireland Series, lost to Clare by 8 pts first round who went on to win the All Ireland, then beat Offaly and beat Westmeath before going out to KK in extra time in Thurles.

In 2014 the current management's first year in charge, in the league we lost by 3 pts to Tipp in Thurles, we then beat Galway by 6 pts and Dublin by 3 pts both in Walsh Park before losing to Clare by 13 pts in Ennis and KK by 20 pts in Nolan Park. In the five league games we conceded 13 goals. We then lost to Dublin in a relegation play-off in Walsh Park conceding another 4 goals bringing our total to 17 goals conceded in 6 games - an average of 2.83 goals per game -

In the Championship we put in a great first half against Cork before being reeled in and then losing the replay by 14 points before beating Laois in the Qualifiers in Walsh Park and then loosing to Wexford by 3 points in Nolan Park.

I am not seeking to detract from what current Management has achieved by getting promotion and winning the League in 2015 and being runners up last year, but facts are facts.

The stark reality is that in 2013 we had come through a tough league campaign and had looked competitive and assured at the back, standing toe to toe with KK in the Championship - we had introduced several new players to the set up including Jake Dillon, and Jamie Barron, the likes of SOK, Philip and Pauric Mahony, Paudie Prendergastand Brian O'Halloran had gotten another years experience under their belts and we had just won the minor All Ireland with some really special potential talent on the horizon. Most supporters were looking forward to 2014 with real optimism, not expecting miracles but expecting to see a steady improvement.

2014 after a promising start turned into one ultimate disaster - with basically the same panel of players with more experience and the addition of Austin Gleeson we were a shambles - in three of the games we played we conceded as many or more goals than we had in the entire league campaign the previous year against broadly the same opposition ending up being relegated. We were humiliated against Cork in the championship replay, struggled past a poor Laois side on our own turf, and then went down to an average Wexford side.

All the time we had to listen to Management telling us that the Waterford public had to be realistic, we didn't have the players and we should be patient while they rebuilt us

Gaining promotion in 2015 straight away was important and a very good achievement. Winning the league was a great achievement and took us all by surprise, especially based on where we were in 2014. However if we looked back to back to 2013 was it such a surprise that we should be competing for a league tittle 24 months later - I don't think so, we were never a million miles away from league titles.

Current management like to talk about "where we have come from", I am sorry but the facts are we have come from where "they brought us" in their first year. With the players we had at our disposal we should never have been down there in the first place - the fact is over the last three years we had a combination of some strong minor sides maturing coupled with the emergence of one excellent minor side being added to what was already a strong and experienced panel of players which included serious players in addition to those already mentioned like Noel Connors. Brick, Kevin Moran, Shane and Darragh Five, Maurice Shanahan etc.. I know I, and many like me, certainly expected us to be a serious outfit by this stage

Before i am accused on having a knife out for the current management or favouring the previous management, i am neither, I am merely pointing to the facts and how these have been distorted. I have great respect for the current management, the commitment they have given is phenomenal and i do not doubt their intentions, but the figures do not lie.

When we judge the current management we must judge them on where we were when they took over, where they brought us initially, where we are now and where they are bringing us. In my view they have merely returned us to where we should reasonably have expected to be at this stage of the development of this particular crop of players , being able to challenge the majority - the question is can they bring us to the next level of being serious challengers to the kingpins of Tipp and Kilkenny where i believe we can go - i have my doubts but will l wait and see.