Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

hurler on de ditch

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I'm a cork man and we had a huge huge win Saturday and we showed signs chance in system but huge game v Galway

We have a good chance but no certainly

I don't think if we win that even any cork man belive we will challenge kk this year yet as kk are imo miles ahead rest bar tippeary who may not have the resolve beat them


My point is Cork aren't even thinking we can bear kk

This any given day imo is nonsense and futile against one team ireland in kk in every box must be ticked or at best you'll loose few points or draw but won't actually win

I don't see how waterford who are a defensive team in most ways will have time or I doubt that will change the style hugely to beat kk in yes will beat Dublin


Look at statics all league waterford struggle to score from play

Nine points yesterday highlights that

Cork tippeary and even looser clare got around fourteen or fifteen from play

Cork scored more on a bad night for hurling and yet kk still be huge ask
Kk have broken down mass defences before and will do again and won't conceded as much as tippeary so I can't see waterford beating them

I'd love waterford to win in opens up the championship and stops kk winning again but as Reid said last week when they dominated Galway second gear their real work starts all ireland semi final

Imo huge statement for the rest of the teams in kk are only warming up
Waterford gave everything yesterday and credit to management and players and they threw kitchen sink ar tippeary but the bottom line is they still lost by five points

To beat kk they will need a whole lot more
I don't think they have the attack or will change it to beat them and croke park will also be a huge factor as it's like a home game for kk

The only team to beat kk is tippeary and doubts remain over them do they truly belive they can

Cork Galway and waterford and Dublin are further of kk imo

are we playing Dublin next

tommy_tucker

Nothing wrong with waterford imo, our shooting let us down on the day end of story, everything up to that point was well executed, we don't need to go changing anything just a bit of target practice. I still think we will go all the way. Up the deise

archieknox

blueflame wrote: »

Have never heard such utter bull**** in my life as what has come out on here and media in last 24 hours. The Waterford system worked yesterday, we didn't win the game but it worked. It is designed at keeping the opposition to a scoreline that gives us a chance of outscoring them and by limiting Tipp to 21 points we did that. Simple fact is we missed at least three or four tap over points, and Stephen Bennett was within a whisker of scoring a goal with Dunford being unlucky also. Tipp on the other hand had one shot on Socks from a tight angle. In addition James Owen played a silly advantage when we gained possession on the sideline, having had a tap over free at our mercy. which is a game this tight is everything. Add to these the two very silly points we gave away with a poor puck outs and a poor clearance by Socks. These are the margins that games are won and lost on at a top level.

Yes it did not work as free flowing in attack as previous games but you must remember, yesterday was championship at its peak against one of the two top sides in the country who had ample time to study the system and for long parts of the game struggled badly with it. Experience played a massive part in yesterdays result. For Tom Devine, Stephen and Shane Bennett and Patrick Curran it was an introduction to a new level, and this will bring them on, they will learn from yesterday. Eddie Barrett had his first seriously competitive hurling game in over 12 months, and his first introduction to our system at this level, at times looked off the pace but this game will bring him on a mile. Darragh Fives returned to the fray adding a whole new world of options to us. Aussie was poor by his own standards but he will return.

Yes our attack did falter with bad decision making, we had at least three attempts at points striking the ball off the Hurley on the run when letting the ball across was a better option, and this needs to be worked on. I believe the system will evolve and we will be come more expansive, but it is important to keep the momentum going, The positions from yesterday far outweigh the negatives. for example.

Full back line looked steady out and Coughlan is growing in to the full back position with every game. Gleeson has so much more to offer than he delivered yesterday . Barrett has gotten a first game under his belt and will come on from this, Darragh Fives is back, Maurice showed yet again yesterday he is up there with the best, and The two Bennett's, Curran and Devine have gotten their introductions to life at the top and while things didn't necessarily go for them they will have learned a lot and will be better players for it.

There plenty things to work on, but in hindsight this result may turn out to be the makings of this team - I am sure somewhere in the back of many peoples minds, was the possibility of being opened up by a genuine All Ireland contender on their home ground on Munster Final day. it didn't happen. Had we won yesterday the euphoria and media frenzy would have been massive and it would be easy to get carried away. As it is we have time to refocus, get our heads down and work hard against Dublin and try and get a result, which believe me will not be easy. If we do we will face KK with a bit of momentum, and in my opinion an AI Semi-final is when they are at their most vulnerable (ha ha)

Almost 12 months on from Nolan Park we are disappointed at being narrowly beaten in a Munster Final (remember having lost Pauric Mahony for the championship), Wexford who were full of hope that might have stayed in Div 2 and been dumped out of the championship, while we who were in the depths of despair have lost our first competitive game in 2015 - and it's not over yet

Great post. Agree thoroughly with what you are saying. I would give Jamie Barron a mention also as I think he is having a wonderful season to date,a few minor mistakes yesterday but again he will learn again from the intensity that he went through yesterday. I was perplexed by Barrett being included I must say as I didn't really see what he was going to offer unless the management wanted to physically strengthen the middle sector.
I think Stephen Bennett is struggling and hasn't produced what his undoubted talent suggests,to be honest I think he'll struggle to start the next day. I agree with the next day being a huge battle don't write the Dubs off just yet there's normally a big display from them and it hasn't happened yet. Still,as you say there are alot more positives than negatives but as long as we learn from some silly mistakes yesterday I think we're heading in the right direction. Maybe Darragh Fives into the number 5 position and release Aussie to the forwards? Add Shane Bennett up there for pace and I think we'll look alot stronger. Surely Tom Devine would have been better than Eddie Barrett in that position yesterday though? Overall with everything that went wrong we weren't far away,that alone tells me we can be even closer to the ultimate one in the not too distant future. Remember Paudie O Mahony will be a big plus(not this year) and add one or two more from this year's minors like Billy Nolan and Darragh Lyons and Ray Barry from his travels and we'll have a serious squad over the next 4-5 years.

STIG83

tommy_tucker wrote: »

Nothing wrong with waterford imo, our shooting let us down on the day end of story, everything up to that point was well executed, we don't need to go changing anything just a bit of target practice. I still think we will go all the way. Up the deise

Not according to Thinks Too Much!! He or she is completely writing us off, should worry about his or hers county than other counties.

deiseach

STIG83 wrote: »

Not according to Thinks Too Much!! He or she is completely writing us off, should worry about his or hers county than other counties.

He/she proceeds on the basis that a stopped clock is right twice a day.

O Riain

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I'm a cork man and we had a huge huge win Saturday and we showed signs chance in system but huge game v Galway

We have a good chance but no certainly

I don't think if we win that even any cork man belive we will challenge kk this year yet as kk are imo miles ahead rest bar tippeary who may not have the resolve beat them


My point is Cork aren't even thinking we can bear kk

This any given day imo is nonsense and futile against one team ireland in kk in every box must be ticked or at best you'll loose few points or draw but won't actually win

I don't see how waterford who are a defensive team in most ways will have time or I doubt that will change the style hugely to beat kk in yes will beat Dublin


Look at statics all league waterford struggle to score from play

Nine points yesterday highlights that

Cork tippeary and even looser clare got around fourteen or fifteen from play

Cork scored more on a bad night for hurling and yet kk still be huge ask
Kk have broken down mass defences before and will do again and won't conceded as much as tippeary so I can't see waterford beating them

I'd love waterford to win in opens up the championship and stops kk winning again but as Reid said last week when they dominated Galway second gear their real work starts all ireland semi final

Imo huge statement for the rest of the teams in kk are only warming up
Waterford gave everything yesterday and credit to management and players and they threw kitchen sink ar tippeary but the bottom line is they still lost by five points

To beat kk they will need a whole lot more
I don't think they have the attack or will change it to beat them and croke park will also be a huge factor as it's like a home game for kk

The only team to beat kk is tippeary and doubts remain over them do they truly belive they can

Cork Galway and waterford and Dublin are further of kk imo

I think you're struggling to score from play statement is a bit off the mark. Do you ever think that maybe if the player wasn't fouled then he might have actually scored from play?

Also we scored 3-10 from play against you boys in the last game. I'd hardly call that struggling from play. Against Tipp in the semi we scored 1-07 from play and they scored 2-09 so not a huge difference.

Ya can say many things but ya can't say that a team struggle to score just because they get fouled in a scoreable position. That's ludicrous.

allthedoyles

I think you have the marquee forward in Shanahan , but he is required further outfield

deiseach

Some people will say it was obvious, but I think it's worth noting that someone in authority remembered David Houlihan. Well done to all concerned.

blue note

deiseach wrote: »

Some people will say it was obvious, but I think it's worth noting that someone in authority remembered David Houlihan. Well done to all concerned.

The round of appluase for him was lovely too - very sincere I thought.

deisedude

deiseach wrote: »

Some people will say it was obvious, but I think it's worth noting that someone in authority remembered David Houlihan. Well done to all concerned.

Shame drunk fools ruined the minutes silence by shouting. I think we are better off doing a minutes applause at this stage

allthedoyles

deisedude wrote: »

Shame drunk fools ruined the minutes silence by shouting. I think we are better off doing a minutes applause at this stage

I agree ,a minutes silence is not working out ever .

David played a club match for Dungarvan only 2 weeks ago , - May he RIP.

STIG83

deisedude wrote: »

Shame drunk fools ruined the minutes silence by shouting. I think we are better off doing a minutes applause at this stage

You wonder why they bother going? Give their ticket to someone who would enjoy it and actually remember it, hope there dying a horrible way today especially the ones who didn't respect the minute silence.

STIG83

allthedoyles wrote: »

I think you have the marquee forward in Shanahan , but he is required further outfield

Was a bit silly having him up front on his own, Tipp had that figured out.
We have a few forwards who will be serious in a few years, the Bennetts definitely, still only young fellas

Dick phelan

In a sense i understand where someone is coming from saying the system worked because had we taken our chances better and not given away 2-3 points we might have won, however i think to win an AI you need a more potent attack. It's weird for years we had amazing forwards but weak at the back, now we're solid at the back but just lacking a bit up front.

tomwaterford

blue note wrote: »

The round of appluase for him was lovely too - very sincere I thought.

A very nice touch that wasn't planned or anything

thinkstoomuch1

STIG83 wrote: »

Not according to Thinks Too Much!! He or she is completely writing us off, should worry about his or hers county than other counties.

Look I'm entitled to an opinion just like everyone else here
Yes cork have problems going forward i call them as it is I don't not say them hoping they go away
Waterford and McGrath be fair have done very well with the defence and the commitment yesterday showed they belive in him
Credit where credit due
Point I'm making is ye should beat Dublin as ye have the better hurlers but in time maybe if change happens but I can't see ye beating kk this year
Tippeary possibly have the best chance
You shouldn't take this as a slight it's not when to be fair Galway cork supporter even tipperary's fear kk hugely


Kk are actually more dangerous than last year as they were tired and there to be beaten with an old team but there young and fresher now and two games in showed kk of old in putting teams away

Kk have way more in them and it's imo frightening for most teams to play them
Young lads have something to prove with old leaders leading them this kk team is building a new one that I fear set for domination again

Cody retired from teaching also so hurling as it always was take priority but he's more time also now

Ropaire

I'd like to see Maurice closer to goal with someone who has pace to burn close to him, if he can't win it himself we have a chance of picking up the break. If he can win it he has a support runner. With Darragh Fives back we have a few options like.

We hit alot of ball into the corners asking our forwards to chase it on top of harrassing their backs, Brick did a serious job at this to be fair to him but we could have used that ball a bit better. In the first few minutes a few of these passes dribbled over the sideline, puckouts were coming straight back in on us when they went long too. Would like to see Gleeson or either Fives up the half forwards as they're well able to take a score (Shanes two scores were excellent) and win their own ball.

I think we lost the game when Brendan Maher moved onto Moran, Barron and Dunford carried alot of ball forward after that but they didn't tack on a few scores or have many options inside to pick out. We went off the boil a bit at that stage and could have done with a few of Morans runs to energise us.

For me we lost the game more than Tipp won it. There's plenty we can do to fix what went wrong yesterday, but even leaving it as is if we were more clinical with the two goal chances that Dunford and Bennett had we'd have won, or if we were sharper with our shooting we'd have won!

The main thing I always want to see us deliver is a performance, we were at the races yesterday and could have won it. We're a work in progress and building nicely, I gutted this team after every game last year because we looked like we were going nowhere. What a difference a year makes, and we're not done yet. Deise abu!

conditioned games

I was very happy with the work rate from the players again yesterday. The defensive system was very good and I would leave it alone. I would have liked to have seen the ball been carried from the half backs to the forwards with runners offering help of an off load rather than the long ball on top of alone Waterford forward been double marked. I’m not sure Barret is the person to bring the ball from defence to attack which is why I think Moran and Barron is the best pair to have at midfield. Austin’s 70 yard shots at goal are too far out which is why I think he would have a greater contribution to the team effort if he was played in the half forwards and then move Darragh Fives to wing back.

As the U21 game is on in less than 54 hours time attention must now be refocused on that knockout game in Ennis. Even though they won well last time against an average Cork team I thought their use of possession was way below the standard required to make an impact at this level especially when you compare it to the Clare teams that done the 3 in a row. Those Clare teams were exceptional with their passes and shot selection as close to perfection you’re likely to get with players always supporting each other for a pass. The turnaround won’t be easy and if management can’t get their heads right they won’t be going any further.

thinkstoomuch1

Ropaire wrote: »

I'd like to see Maurice closer to goal with someone who has pace to burn close to him, if he can't win it himself we have a chance of picking up the break. If he can win it he has a support runner. With Darragh Fives back we have a few options like.

We hit alot of ball into the corners asking our forwards to chase it on top of harrassing their backs, Brick did a serious job at this to be fair to him but we could have used that ball a bit better. In the first few minutes a few of these passes dribbled over the sideline, puckouts were coming straight back in on us when they went long too. Would like to see Gleeson or either Fives up the half forwards as they're well able to take a score (Shanes two scores were excellent) and win their own ball.

I think we lost the game when Brendan Maher moved onto Moran, Barron and Dunford carried alot of ball forward after that but they didn't tack on a few scores or have many options inside to pick out. We went off the boil a bit at that stage and could have done with a few of Morans runs to energise us.

For me we lost the game more than Tipp won it. There's plenty we can do to fix what went wrong yesterday, but even leaving it as is if we were more clinical with the two goal chances that Dunford and Bennett had we'd have won, or if we were sharper with our shooting we'd have won!

The main thing I always want to see us deliver is a performance, we were at the races yesterday and could have won it. We're a work in progress and building nicely, I gutted this team after every game last year because we looked like we were going nowhere. What a difference a year makes, and we're not done yet. Deise abu!

I'd agree with a lot of that but I think it's bit unfair on tippeary scored fourteen or so point from play and waterford just nine to say waterford lost it rather than tippeary won it

Tippeary scored when the need was greatest and won not one half but both half of hurling

Dunford who was outstanding imo the goal chance imo wasn't as clear cut as it made out to be as tippeary had defenders back to cover the area and that's why he went for goal but wasn't great shot

The league games v tippeary has to be taken with a bit of negation in o shea said work rate wasn't their from tipp then and also waterford we all know have trained since November where tippeary just trained since January so the improvement in work ethic and fitness being equal on both teams showed by tippeary performance yesterday


Apparently tippeary ist training session this years only one word spoken kk
They won't say that but kk is the one they want and target so I don't think they want to be full throttle league or championship they will need and want to save their best game for the all ireland final as they expect like most pundits kk be there




Waterford have great foundation now and McGrath done that
However real challenge is to adapt and evolve and link attack and defence as at the moment my opinion like most is waterford are just a defence team
Yes credit due they got huge score v Cork but Cork huge injury worries defence such Murphy called in
Cork defence has improved since then in two games no goals conceded

The game yesterday proved waterford need more from attack
Against kk also where they live right on the edge and have it to a tee not conceding frees they need more from play

I mention kk as I genuinely think waterford better hurlers and system than Dublin and I think waterford will score a lot as Dublin defence is not great


Kk will be a great gauge

The under twenty one game is huge important now to keep continuity for waterford and I think ye will win that game in ennis even
It's on tg four also

archieknox

deiseach wrote: »

Some people will say it was obvious, but I think it's worth noting that someone in authority remembered David Houlihan. Well done to all concerned.

Paddy Curran had the black armband on for Houlie aswell. You could see the despair on his face at fulltime when we lost as he would have loved nothing more than to win it and dedicate it to his club mate. What was a lovely touch during the week was the players from Abbeyside and other surrounding clubs coming to our ground for a puck around in his memory. Just shows you the esteem in which he was held.

hardybuck

allthedoyles wrote: »

I think you have the marquee forward in Shanahan , but he is required further outfield

Personally I don't think so. He's a distance off the likes of Richie Hogan, Tony Kelly, Conor McGrath, Joe Canning, Callanan, Colin Fennelly, TJ Reid at al in my opinion.

Could enter that space if he continues to perform at that level though.

hardybuck

Ropaire wrote: »

For me we lost the game more than Tipp won it. There's plenty we can do to fix what went wrong yesterday, but even leaving it as is if we were more clinical with the two goal chances that Dunford and Bennett had we'd have won, or if we were sharper with our shooting we'd have won!

Also when Bubbles came out the field around the same time and got some crucial scores.

STIG83

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Look I'm entitled to an opinion just like everyone else here
Yes cork have problems going forward i call them as it is I don't not say them hoping they go away
Waterford and McGrath be fair have done very well with the defence and the commitment yesterday showed they belive in him
Credit where credit due
Point I'm making is ye should beat Dublin as ye have the better hurlers but in time maybe if change happens but I can't see ye beating kk this year
Tippeary possibly have the best chance
You shouldn't take this as a slight it's not when to be fair Galway cork supporter even tipperary's fear kk hugely


Kk are actually more dangerous than last year as they were tired and there to be beaten with an old team but there young and fresher now and two games in showed kk of old in putting teams away

Kk have way more in them and it's imo frightening for most teams to play them
Young lads have something to prove with old leaders leading them this kk team is building a new one that I fear set for domination again

Cody retired from teaching also so hurling as it always was take priority but he's more time also now

Don't buy into KK that they more dangerous than last year, they there for the taking imo. Still basically the same team as last year with the only changes the retirements.
They weren't tested against Wexford and in the Galway game it could have went either way if Galway had that bit more edge.
I'm still not convinced that JJ Delaney's replacement is the man for the job.
Man mark Richie Hogan and Tj Reid and you never know.

I'll be very surprised if they get to lift Liam in September.

galwaylad14

hardybuck wrote: »

Personally I don't think so. He's a distance off the likes of Richie Hogan, Tony Kelly, Conor McGrath, Joe Canning, Callanan, Colin Fennelly, TJ Reid at al in my opinion.

Could enter that space if he continues to perform at that level though.

Colin Fennelly isn't within an asses roar of being at that level. His striking is average and I'm being very kind to him there. Don't get me wrong he's a good forward but he's a long way off the level of the other players you mentioned there.

I'd agree with you though that Shanahan isn't quiet up there either but he's not that far off it. A lot closer than Colin Fennelly is anyways.

HillFarmer

Very happy with the performance, Thought Moran,Shan, Barron and Fives were outstanding.

A few others have mentioned here I think moving either Darragh Fives or Gleeson to half forward would be worthwhile.

Gleeson didn't have the best of days by his standards, some of his shooting was optimistic. Physically I thought this was a much tougher game for him compared to Cork. Also one wild pull which lead to an easy point, I think he needs to cut that from his game.


Stephen Bennett didn't perform on the day but I can see him clicking in the near future, we cant forget how young these guys are. I predicted we'd lose by around 6 but am delighted with our overall performance.

Anyone else think the ref the amount of yellow cards was too much?

Really looking forward to Dublin.

culbaire

blueflame wrote: »

Have never heard such utter bull**** in my life as what has come out on here and media in last 24 hours. The Waterford system worked yesterday, we didn't win the game but it worked. It is designed at keeping the opposition to a scoreline that gives us a chance of outscoring them and by limiting Tipp to 21 points we did that. Simple fact is we missed at least three or four tap over points, and Stephen Bennett was within a whisker of scoring a goal with Dunford being unlucky also. Tipp on the other hand had one shot on Socks from a tight angle. In addition James Owen played a silly advantage when we gained possession on the sideline, having had a tap over free at our mercy. which is a game this tight is everything. Add to these the two very silly points we gave away with a poor puck outs and a poor clearance by Socks. These are the margins that games are won and lost on at a top level.

Yes it did not work as free flowing in attack as previous games but you must remember, yesterday was championship at its peak against one of the two top sides in the country who had ample time to study the system and for long parts of the game struggled badly with it. Experience played a massive part in yesterdays result. For Tom Devine, Stephen and Shane Bennett and Patrick Curran it was an introduction to a new level, and this will bring them on, they will learn from yesterday. Eddie Barrett had his first seriously competitive hurling game in over 12 months, and his first introduction to our system at this level, at times looked off the pace but this game will bring him on a mile. Darragh Fives returned to the fray adding a whole new world of options to us. Aussie was poor by his own standards but he will return.

Yes our attack did falter with bad decision making, we had at least three attempts at points striking the ball off the Hurley on the run when letting the ball across was a better option, and this needs to be worked on. I believe the system will evolve and we will be come more expansive, but it is important to keep the momentum going, The positions from yesterday far outweigh the negatives. for example.

Full back line looked steady out and Coughlan is growing in to the full back position with every game. Gleeson has so much more to offer than he delivered yesterday . Barrett has gotten a first game under his belt and will come on from this, Darragh Fives is back, Maurice showed yet again yesterday he is up there with the best, and The two Bennett's, Curran and Devine have gotten their introductions to life at the top and while things didn't necessarily go for them they will have learned a lot and will be better players for it.

There plenty things to work on, but in hindsight this result may turn out to be the makings of this team - I am sure somewhere in the back of many peoples minds, was the possibility of being opened up by a genuine All Ireland contender on their home ground on Munster Final day. it didn't happen. Had we won yesterday the euphoria and media frenzy would have been massive and it would be easy to get carried away. As it is we have time to refocus, get our heads down and work hard against Dublin and try and get a result, which believe me will not be easy. If we do we will face KK with a bit of momentum, and in my opinion an AI Semi-final is when they are at their most vulnerable (ha ha)

Almost 12 months on from Nolan Park we are disappointed at being narrowly beaten in a Munster Final (remember having lost Pauric Mahony for the championship), Wexford who were full of hope that might have stayed in Div 2 and been dumped out of the championship, while we who were in the depths of despair have lost our first competitive game in 2015 - and it's not over yet

Your use of an expletive says it all. It was a perfect performance was it? Since when have you a monopoly of knowledge? I have posted an alternative structure for Waterford. I stand by it. It is not "b****t either. Yours is an effort to shut down meaningful analysis of the reasons for the defeat yesterday. Its just your opinion. It is not gospel. People who post here are entitled to common courtesy. Counties that win All Irelands do so by rectifying problems not by trying to smooth over them.
I know every player yesterday did his level best. However the system is deeply flawed. That's the opinion of most Waterford supporters yesterday who could see the problems with a 1/2 man full forward line. That system would not beat Kilkenny either.

hardybuck

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Colin Fennelly isn't within an asses roar of being at that level. His striking is average and I'm being very kind to him there. Don't get me wrong he's a good forward but he's a long way off the level of the other players you mentioned there.

I'd agree with you though that Shanahan isn't quiet up there either but he's not that far off it. A lot closer than Colin Fennelly is anyways.

OK, maybe a bit too high praise for Fennelly, but you see the quality of the others.

Mountainlad

We won't beat Kilkenny going man on man, not this year anyway.

tommy_tucker

culbaire wrote: »

Counties that win All Irelands do so by rectifying problems not by trying to smooth over them.

Yeah thats why donegal gave up on the blanket defence when they lost to Dublin in 2011.

Waterford forwards played badly, didn't take there chances, end of story, target practice and a bit of luck is all that is needed

hardybuck

tommy_tucker wrote: »

Yeah thats why donegal gave up on the blanket defence when they lost to Dublin in 2011.

Waterford forwards played badly, didn't take there chances, end of story, target practice and a bit of luck is all that is needed

Sorry, you're a bit off there about Donegal.

Donegal played extremely deep in year one. Year 2 onwards they played as deep, but employed more counter attacking, which continued in further years.

The priority in year one was to make themselves as difficult to beat as possible, and evolved into doing this while also beating teams.

I would see Waterford in a similar position, and as the young forwards in particular mature, I think you'll see we have more options.

tommy_tucker

hardybuck wrote: »

Sorry, you're a bit off there about Donegal.

Donegal played extremely deep in year one. Year 2 onwards they played as deep, but employed more counter attacking, which continued in further years.

The priority in year one was to make themselves as difficult to beat as possible, and evolved into doing this while also beating teams.

I would see Waterford in a similar position, and as the young forwards in particular mature, I think you'll see we have more options.

i meant that sarcastically sorry, as in they didn't give up on it after 2011.

I heard on the sunday game that they did massive amounts of kicking practice after 2011, which is all waterford need to sharpen up after sunday.

I'm going to put a few pounds on them to go all the way anyway, reckon they'll be good value now.

hardybuck

tommy_tucker wrote: »

i meant that sarcastically sorry, as in they didn't give up on it after 2011.

I heard on the sunday game that they did massive amounts of kicking practice after 2011, which is all waterford need to sharpen up after sunday.

I'm going to put a few pounds on them to go all the way anyway, reckon they'll be good value now.

Ah fair enough!

deisedude

culbaire wrote: »

Your use of an expletive says it all. It was a perfect performance was it? Since when have you a monopoly of knowledge? I have posted an alternative structure for Waterford. I stand by it. It is not "b****t either. Yours is an effort to shut down meaningful analysis of the reasons for the defeat yesterday. Its just your opinion. It is not gospel. People who post here are entitled to common courtesy. Counties that win All Irelands do so by rectifying problems not by trying to smooth over them.
I know every player yesterday did his level best. However the system is deeply flawed. That's the opinion of most Waterford supporters yesterday who could see the problems with a 1/2 man full forward line. That system would not beat Kilkenny either.

Your gameplan was to move every line back ten yards bar the full forward line. A decent junior b manager would figure out how to overcome that

westcork blue

The progress made over the last 6 months has been great. Yesterday showed up both the progress and the the current limitations. We went toe to toe with a very good Tipp team and showed real defensive solidity. Barry C is starting to look like the real deal at FB and the overall shape of 1-9 looks as good as is out there. For me we lack pace in the forwards and to make the system work we need to rectify this. Steven Bennett and Brick are not speedsters that will beat guys in a foot race to win 50/50 ball inside the 45 so an amount of possession is going to be lost when played up to the forwards when under pressure. I think Aussie being relocated to the inside line is worth looking at. Having Darragh Fives and Steven Danials as HB options now should allow this to happen. The way we play has been tweaked and needs to evolve further but from where we were 12 months ago we have made huge strides.

Mountainlad

Stephen Bennett is deceptively fast, just look at his break through on goal. He's not fit enough though, probably largely due to the physical impediment of his hips. Brick has been outstanding too, there's plenty of improvement left in the team. Would be naive to be expecting us to be completely the finished article at this stage.

We're still in the championship so it will be interesting to see how we react. In fairness, the quarter final will be a great opportunity to send a message out and I for one would love to beat Dublin handy because it irked me 'Galway style' the hype they had in 2011 and so on when I always felt we had better hurlers and would beat them if we played them. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see in two weeks time.

PTH2009

People need to learn to not be getting too over confident about the Dublin game. They have a very good management team and some good players and we will be favourites (something we don't cope with very well history will tell).

I hate being the first game but we have to deal with it.

thinkstoomuch1

culbaire wrote: »

Your use of an expletive says it all. It was a perfect performance was it? Since when have you a monopoly of knowledge? I have posted an alternative structure for Waterford. I stand by it. It is not "b****t either. Yours is an effort to shut down meaningful analysis of the reasons for the defeat yesterday. Its just your opinion. It is not gospel. People who post here are entitled to common courtesy. Counties that win All Irelands do so by rectifying problems not by trying to smooth over them.
I know every player yesterday did his level best. However the system is deeply flawed. That's the opinion of most Waterford supporters yesterday who could see the problems with a 1/2 man full forward line. That system would not beat Kilkenny either.

I'd agree I'd have major reservations about this system going forward

Adaptable plans must happen in any team for evolution to occur

At present waterford are very predicable with no real scoring threat as a unit

Change is needed as kk will beat the current system very easily and have beaten clare sweeper as far back as twelve years ago Galway two years ago Dublin etc
This system is very beatable

deisedude

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I'd agree I'd have major reservations about this system going forward

Adaptable plans must happen in any team for evolution to occur

At present waterford are very predicable with no real scoring threat as a unit

Change is needed as kk will beat the current system very easily and have beaten clare sweeper as far back as twelve years ago Galway two years ago Dublin etc
This system is very beatable

How bad are Cork if ye can't beat us when we are so predictable?

Ropaire

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I'd agree I'd have major reservations about this system going forward

Adaptable plans must happen in any team for evolution to occur

At present waterford are very predicable with no real scoring threat as a unit

Change is needed as kk will beat the current system very easily and have beaten clare sweeper as far back as twelve years ago Galway two years ago Dublin etc
This system is very beatable

Ya its so beatable, we should have learned rhat after we lost all those games this year before Sunday. Know any other tunes? This one is getting as repetitive like the "cork won't lose twice" one did.

culbaire

deisedude wrote: »

Your gameplan was to move every line back ten yards bar the full forward line. A decent junior b manager would figure out how to overcome that

Spell it out!! Incidentally you conveniently OMITTED a large part of the post which indicated the type of hurling to ACCOMPANY the structure. Judging by the flippancy of your remarks that is hardly surprising. Lets here your approach in DETAIL. One thing is certain Waterford will not win an ALL Ireland with the current approach. Incidentally I did not indicate IN DETAIL how I would utilize the players in the full forward line. Neither did I indicate FULLY how I would use the two centre field players. I gave a broad outline of the structure. Incidentally you introduced the "10 yards". I DID NOT.
For your information a former Cork coach reckons as well that the structure I outlined is far superior to the current structure. Spell out in detail how you would break it down. Lets hear your plan. Also outline the hurling style you would use to accompany your structure. You are obviously a brilliant Junior B manager as indicated by the massive detail in your post. You post is typical of the "circle the wagons brigade". You just dont want to hear alternative points of view.

blueflame

culbaire wrote: »

Your use of an expletive says it all. It was a perfect performance was it? Since when have you a monopoly of knowledge? I have posted an alternative structure for Waterford. I stand by it. It is not "b****t either. Yours is an effort to shut down meaningful analysis of the reasons for the defeat yesterday. Its just your opinion. It is not gospel. People who post here are entitled to common courtesy. Counties that win All Irelands do so by rectifying problems not by trying to smooth over them.
I know every player yesterday did his level best. However the system is deeply flawed. That's the opinion of most Waterford supporters yesterday who could see the problems with a 1/2 man full forward line. That system would not beat Kilkenny either.

Apologies if you take offence Culbaire and you are correct everyone is entitled to their opinion, but my reaction is aimed more at the hysteria of abandonment and the likes of Loughnane bleating about failure of systems.

I have long argued against this system as you will see from many previous posts of mine, but i have come to appreciate the difficulty that other teams have with overcoming it. I am not papering over cracks I am merely refusing to panic and being realistic. A two man full forward line with players breaking from deep has the ability to cause any team trouble, especially if you have the right players in there with the right ball being delivered to them. We are not going to beat KK or Tipperary at the moment by opening the back door and letting them take us to pieces, ask Galway, Wexford or Limerick.

Yesterday we kept Tipperary to a reasonable score and had more than enough chances to have outscored them. Had we done so the media, the pundits and most on here would have been talking in glowing terms about the performance. This team is a young side who are trying to regain confidence, confidence that was destroyed on them last year and slowly but surely they are achieving this. The system is there for this year, it needs improving not abandoning and personally I feel that it is capable of causing KK difficulty - that is my opinion but we will have to get over Dublin first

thinkstoomuch1

deisedude wrote: »

How bad are Cork if ye can't beat us when we are so predictable?

Look you want to discuss Cork come to the Cork thread I'll happily engage in debate about them
I'm taking about waterford
Waterford don't have to worry about cork now Dublin they will beat but kk are waiting is my point and waterford have to change the system like culbaire said

If tipperary's can bear the system it's reasonable to expect the current all ireland champions to do so is it not now

thinkstoomuch1

Ropaire wrote: »

Ya its so beatable, we should have learned rhat after we lost all those games this year before Sunday. Know any other tunes? This one is getting as repetitive like the "cork won't lose twice" one did.

After every loss it's reasonable to examine a system and tweak it

Look at Dublin last year after Donegal

Cork this year the last two games changes it

Surely it's reasonable to say yes defence is absoultey excellent I'm not denying that and McGrath deserves huge huge credit for this but hurling is about attack and defence and statics show ist huge test against second best team county don't score enough



You must accept it's reasonable that kk with Reid alward larkin and power etc will score a lot with hogan also so waterford simply have to score more than there currently doing from play


Great managment learn from defeats

If McGrath does he could be great

But as of now it remains to be seen if he will change and he's good foundation to work off but unless he adds attacking dimensions and cohesion of defence to attack while it will beat most teams the reality imo is at the business end of the championship it won't be enough but more will be required


Yesterday showed waterford had lot be proud off but unfortunately it's a loss and players like Gleeson etc who want win know this so they are winners

Waterford simply imo threw everything at tipp but still lost so it's reasonable to say tweaking of this system is necessary imo

culbaire

blueflame wrote: »

Apologies if you take offence Culbaire and you are correct everyone is entitled to their opinion, but my reaction is aimed more at the hysteria of abandonment and the likes of Loughnane bleating about failure of systems.

I have long argued against this system as you will see from many previous posts of mine, but i have come to appreciate the difficulty that other teams have with overcoming it. I am not papering over cracks I am merely refusing to panic and being realistic. A two man full forward line with players breaking from deep has the ability to cause any team trouble, especially if you have the right players in there with the right ball being delivered to them. We are not going to beat KK or Tipperary at the moment by opening the back door and letting them take us to pieces, ask Galway, Wexford or Limerick.

Yesterday we kept Tipperary to a reasonable score and had more than enough chances to have outscored them. Had we done so the media, the pundits and most on here would have been talking in glowing terms about the performance. This team is a young side who are trying to regain confidence, confidence that was destroyed on them last year and slowly but surely they are achieving this. The system is there for this year, it needs improving not abandoning and personally I feel that it is capable of causing KK difficulty - that is my opinion but we will have to get over Dublin first

I understand where you are coming from even-though I dont fully agree. We might trouble Kilkenny but i could not see us beating them. We are too predictable at present. Cody is like an old fox. He spots every flaw in an opposing team. However we must first beat Dublin. The Dubs will fancy their chances against us and cannot be taken as a soft touch.

thinkstoomuch1

culbaire wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from even-though I dont fully agree. We might trouble Kilkenny but i could not see us beating them. We are too predictable at present. Cody is like an old fox. He spots every flaw in an opposing team. However we must first beat Dublin. The Dubs will fancy their chances against us and cannot be taken as a soft touch.

That's it exactly if flaws are in the system that fans can see have no doubt cody the greatest ever manager see this

blueflame

Agree, the system is not without flaws, but i believe with the experience of yesterday if we learn from it, we can beat Dublin and we can trouble KK. If we give KK space in our half of the field they can open us up.

tommy_tucker

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

If tipperary's can bear the system it's reasonable to expect the current all ireland champions to do so is it not now

Did they though,they won yes but they didn't unravel waterfords system,they didn't run in 7 goals, they didn't have a sniff of a goal, and Waterford couldn't hit a cows arse with a shovel.

thinkstoomuch1

tommy_tucker wrote: »

Did they though,they won yes but they didn't unravel waterfords system,they didn't run in 7 goals, they didn't have a sniff of a goal, and Waterford couldn't hit a cows arse with a shovel.

It's irrelevant what they won buy in the point is tippeary won

Dick phelan

It's been mentioned i think but yesterday i thought we really missed Paudie and not because of frees or anything.

Figsy32

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

That's it exactly if flaws are in the system that fans can see have no doubt cody the greatest ever manager see this

There's no such thing as a flawless system though. All you can do is try to hide your weaknesses and keep your strengths. That's what Waterford are doing atm. They have a lot of young lads with great talent and great engines like Dunford, Barron and Gleeson as well as grizzled veterans like Moran and Brick to win ball. They're keeping the house safe by not conceding goals and, although wasteful yesterday, have good long distance shooters like Gleeson, Fives, Moran. Between Shanahan and others coming from deep they have a goal threat as shown against Cork.

IMO they are a couple forwards short and not conditioned enouh because of the youth to compete with Kilkenny and Tipp on a man to man basis, as Culbaire advocates. They got close to Tipp without lads like Gleeson or Dunford firing like they have previously.

This is their best option at the moment I feel. By all means it should be tweaked depending on opposition but the general idea is the right one.