Paternity leave... Swedish style. Would you do it?

dark crystal

Just saw this article on Buzzfeed and it really confirmed my belief that Ireland lags pitifully behind the Scandinavians on the childcare and equality front.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/lynzybilling/this-is-what-it-looks-like-when-men-are-allowed-to-take-60-d#.ffJ1k8467

The article focuses on a photo series shot by Swedish photographer Johan Bävman, who chronicles 30 fathers who have chosen to partake in the 480 day parental leave allowance allowed by the Swedish government. Not only is it allowed, it's positively encouraged.

As refreshing as it is to see these dads sharing equally in the bonding and care of their children and hearing their stories, I was surprised to read that only 12% of men in Sweden actually choose to take up this leave and it got me thinking; to all the guys out there, if the Irish government sanctioned such a scheme here, would you be willing to take them up on it?

Playboy

Absolutely

Tearin It Up

If I had a willy, yes.

mass_debater

Definitely. It's ridiculous that the mother only gets 6 months here. 6-18 months is a very important time, so much happens.

Lu Tze

dark crystal wrote: »

Just saw this article on Buzzfeed and it really confirmed my belief that Ireland lags pitifully behind the Scandinavians on the childcare and equality front.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/lynzybilling/this-is-what-it-looks-like-when-men-are-allowed-to-take-60-d#.ffJ1k8467

The article focuses on a photo series shot by Swedish photographer Johan Bävman, who chronicles 30 fathers who have chosen to partake in the 480 day parental leave allowance allowed by the Swedish government. Not only is it allowed, it's positively encouraged.

As refreshing as it is to see these dads sharing equally in the bonding and care of their children and hearing their stories, I was surprised to read that only 12% of men in Sweden actually choose to take up this leave and it got me thinking; to all the guys out there, if the Irish government sanctioned such a scheme here, would you be willing to take them up on it?

Indeed, just need figure out how to pay for it, after bringing down our debt to a manageable level. Any ideas? Will you pay for it?

The Diabolical Monocle

Not all Scandinavian countries.

Just Sveedun.

Tearin It Up

Lu Tze wrote: »

Indeed, just need figure out how to pay for it, after bringing down our debt to a manageable level. Any ideas? Will you pay for it?

So thats the number one thing to sort out first. Of course the debt is parents fault and fathers who have worked and paid tax aren't allowed time off to raise their kids?

tritium

Lu Tze wrote: »

Indeed, just need figure out how to pay for it, after bringing down our debt to a manageable level. Any ideas? Will you pay for it?

Would avail of it in a heartbeat, wish it had been an option when my kids were born. I'm not sure why the paying for it question is an issue anymore than it is for existing maternity leave which extends well beyond any medical need. You could make it near zero cost simply by either giving the option to or just splitting existing maternity leave beyond some point, say 16 -20 weeks, with the same for the option also unpaid element

Just to note the 12% take up refers to men equally splitting the leave (as they can). Sweden may still have some work to do on gender equality if men won't or can't avail of a decent split of the leave. Will be interesting to know if they do anything to improve this.

dark crystal

Lu Tze wrote: »

Indeed, just need figure out how to pay for it, after bringing down our debt to a manageable level. Any ideas? Will you pay for it?

My partner and I pay taxes just like you, just like the Swedish pay their taxes. We have a similar GDP to Sweden, but they think long term and prioritise better.

What's the difference between men or women taking parental leave in terms of the country's debt? How has Sweden's economy managed to hold up?

One eyed Jack

Nope, I wouldn't.

I had no interest in staying at home when my child was born and I would have no interest in being an SAH parent.

keano_afc

Absolutely. I took 2 weeks off when my second was born and it killed me to go back. I get to work from home at least twice a week which helps but I'd take more in a heartbeat.

UCDVet

How does this work - do you get full pay for staying home?

dark crystal

UCDVet wrote: »

How does this work - do you get full pay for staying home?

I think it's 90% pay. This article explains it in a bit more detail.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/07/economist-explains-15

Orim

dark crystal wrote: »

My partner and I pay taxes just like you, just like the Swedish pay their taxes. We have a similar GDP to Sweden, but they think long term and prioritise better.

What's the difference between men or women taking parental leave in terms of the country's debt? How has Sweden's economy managed to hold up?

The lowest tax bracket in Sweden is 29 percent and the average is 50 percent. Good luck getting Irish people to pay that.

mass_debater

Orim wrote: »

The lowest tax bracket in Sweden is 29 percent and the average is 50 percent. Good luck getting Irish people to pay that.

I'd have no problem paying it if it wasn't wasted

Both parents taking leave helps protect women against workplace discrimination. When employers face both male and female employees taking parental leave they're less likely to lean towards male hire and promotion because of conscious or unconscious fears of covering maternity leave.

It levels the field somewhat, though you'd need fathers to take up the full quota of leave as a matter of course for that to properly happen. If a culture persists of fathers taking up less leave, then women will still be seen as more of a risk.

crockholm

I have done,not all the time allocated ,but I did do it for about 3-4 months.
The amount of pay you get relates to your job,and then the % of that, that you can take e.g. 5 Days a week-13,000 sek per month after tax,for about 14-15 months.You can take it at 7 Days per week and get more but then you have less time off paternity leave.

Plus,about 90 of those Days(per parent) are at the lowest rate,180 sek per day

crockholm

Candie wrote: »

Both parents taking leave helps protect women against workplace discrimination. When employers face both male and female employees taking parental leave they're less likely to lean towards male hire and promotion because of conscious or unconscious fears of covering maternity leave.

It levels the field somewhat, though you'd need fathers to take up the full quota of leave as a matter of course for that to properly happen. If a culture persists of fathers taking up less leave, then women will still be seen as more of a risk.

Yeah,but the truth of it is most women want the time off,I had to raise hell to get my time off.I don't actually know any man that has taken all their allotted time off in all my time here.I f we are lucky we get a few months off at Winter,for those of us who work outdoors.

crockholm

crockholm wrote: »

Yeah,but the truth of it is most women want the time off,I had to raise hell to get my time off.I don't actually know any man that has taken all their allotted time off in all my time here.I f we are lucky we get a few months off at Winter,for those of us who work outdoors.

Well that's between the couple themselves to work out. 90% of the higher earner makes more sense to me, but breastfeeding might be the decider in a lot of decisions. There's just no getting away from biology, and breastfeeding numbers in Sweden are very high, rightly so, which might account for the lower time taken by fathers.

jaykay74

I live in Sweden and use the parental leave to top up my summer holidays to take 6 weeks a year. The days can be used up to the child turning 12. Means you can use days at Christmas without affecting summer hols.

tritium

crockholm wrote: »

Yeah,but the truth of it is most women want the time off,I had to raise hell to get my time off.I don't actually know any man that has taken all their allotted time off in all my time here.I f we are lucky we get a few months off at Winter,for those of us who work outdoors.

So is it a case that men are often discouraged from availing of it? And if so is that generally from their employer or from within the relationship?

eviltwin

tritium wrote: »

So is it a case that men are often discouraged from availing of it? And if so is that generally from their employer or from within the relationship?

My husband works for a company that has paternity leave, its limited but its better than most. The workforce is about 80% male and no man has ever taken it beyond 2 weeks because he wants to get back to work. There is a culture of machismo that still sees hands on parenting as something women should do. Its a shame. My husband was home with me for 6 months after our youngest was born and it benefited every member of the family in a positive way.

dan1895

Would snatch your hand off for it. Going back to work with a three week old at home was heartbreaking.

crockholm

tritium wrote: »

So is it a case that men are often discouraged from availing of it? And if so is that generally from their employer or from within the relationship?

From the relationship.Employers hands are tied and dare not kick up a fuss about it.Mammas just like to meet up with their other friends with kids for kaffe and fika,you best not take that from them.:pac:

bee06

crockholm wrote: »

From the relationship.Employers hands are tied and dare not kick up a fuss about it.Mammas just like to meet up with their other friends with kids for kaffe and fika,you best not take that from them.:pac:

Are you saying in your workplace women get priority for holiday allocation? Because that's not something I've ever experienced or heard anyone else say. It's first come, first serve.

Also, what is fika?

Edit to add: ignore this. I completely misread the quoted post.

FalconGirl

Orim wrote: »

The lowest tax bracket in Sweden is 29 percent and the average is 50 percent. Good luck getting Irish people to pay that.

I'd happily pay higher taxes if it wasn't bloody wasted on super quangos and over bloated admin.

dan1895

Fika is like lunch.

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

My husband works for a company that has paternity leave, its limited but its better than most. The workforce is about 80% male and no man has ever taken it beyond 2 weeks because he wants to get back to work. There is a culture of machismo that still sees hands on parenting as something women should do. Its a shame. My husband was home with me for 6 months after our youngest was born and it benefited every member of the family in a positive way.

I think there's more to it in Irish society than that really. I worked in a company that was pretty much 50/50 gender split, large MNC with over 5,000 employees, and when the subject of children and childcare would come up, many of the women would comment that they wanted to get back to work asap (and my female manager worked practically up to the day she gave birth, and was back a few weeks later). The idea of being machismo never came into it. It was simply because that's what they wanted to do.

I was at a meeting the other night and in the school, there were 20 teachers, 18 women and two men, and two of the female teachers had timed their maternity leave so that they could effectively take a year off work, then a career break for another year, and I don't know what their plans were after that.

I think really it has more to do with tradition in Irish society, and attitudes towards being in employment among both men and women, and the fact that more and more parents are both working to be able to afford childcare. We just don't have either the same attitudes to parenting, employment equality, and egalitarian society as they do in Sweden.

I think it would be a good option to have available for parents that wanted it, certainly, but I don't know would there be anything like the take up on it that those who actively support it would hope for. It'd probably only be much like the same percentage in Sweden, 12%.

crockholm

bee06 wrote: »

Are you saying in your workplace women get priority for holiday allocation? Because that's not something I've ever experienced or heard anyone else say. It's first come, first serve.

Also, what is fika?

Nope,I'm saying that my wife took all my paternity Days with the second Child,I got 4 months off with the first kid because work was slowing down and it was Winter.
Maternal/paternity leave is sacrosant in Sweden,all companies comply with it,it is institutionalised within the country and all wage category workers avail of it.

Fika IS Sweden:D It can be anything,usually sweet,that goes with the ubiqitous cups of coffee, i.e. a cinnamon bun or biscuits.

eviltwin

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think there's more to it in Irish society than that really. I worked in a company that was pretty much 50/50 gender split, large MNC with over 5,000 employees, and when the subject of children and childcare would come up, many of the women would comment that they wanted to get back to work asap (and my female manager worked practically up to the day she gave birth, and was back a few weeks later). The idea of being machismo never came into it. It was simply because that's what they wanted to do.

I was at a meeting the other night and in the school, there were 20 teachers, 18 women and two men, and two of the female teachers had timed their maternity leave so that they could effectively take a year off work, then a career break for another year, and I don't know what their plans were after that.

I think really it has more to do with tradition in Irish society, and attitudes towards being in employment among both men and women, and the fact that more and more parents are both working to be able to afford childcare. We just don't have either the same attitudes to parenting, employment equality, and egalitarian society as they do in Sweden.

I think it would be a good option to have available for parents that wanted it, certainly, but I don't know would there be anything like the take up on it that those who actively support it would hope for. It'd probably only be much like the same percentage in Sweden, 12%.

I meant his company rather than society in general. I see a lot more hands on dads now than ever before and its great. But there are still men who are a bit self conscious about it just as there are women who are still of the mindset that the fathers of their children are little more than children themselves who can't be trusted to take care of a child.

MadDog76

dark crystal wrote: »

Just saw this article on Buzzfeed and it really confirmed my belief that Ireland lags pitifully behind the Scandinavians on the childcare and equality front.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/lynzybilling/this-is-what-it-looks-like-when-men-are-allowed-to-take-60-d#.ffJ1k8467

The article focuses on a photo series shot by Swedish photographer Johan Bävman, who chronicles 30 fathers who have chosen to partake in the 480 day parental leave allowance allowed by the Swedish government. Not only is it allowed, it's positively encouraged.

As refreshing as it is to see these dads sharing equally in the bonding and care of their children and hearing their stories, I was surprised to read that only 12% of men in Sweden actually choose to take up this leave and it got me thinking; to all the guys out there, if the Irish government sanctioned such a scheme here, would you be willing to take them up on it?

YES!!!

dinny_byrne

Orim wrote: »

The lowest tax bracket in Sweden is 29 percent and the average is 50 percent. Good luck getting Irish people to pay that.

plus in sweden those on low incomes are expected to pay tax

To Elland Back

480 days is way too much paternity leave, whether it is shared or not. It can have a terrible effect on business for an employer with key employees.

supersean1999

i find being a father from 7am till 9am and 1-2 and 530pm till 7 am is loads of time for me id crack up if i was in the house minding kids fulltime, as in every hour of the day,

crockholm

To Elland Back wrote: »

480 days is way too much paternity leave, whether it is shared or not. It can have a terrible effect on business for an employer with key employees.

Yet Sweden functions,so perhaps you could be wrong;)

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Candie wrote: »

Both parents taking leave helps protect women against workplace discrimination. When employers face both male and female employees taking parental leave they're less likely to lean towards male hire and promotion because of conscious or unconscious fears of covering maternity leave.

It levels the field somewhat, though you'd need fathers to take up the full quota of leave as a matter of course for that to properly happen. If a culture persists of fathers taking up less leave, then women will still be seen as more of a risk.

Absolutely.

If the exact same time is given to both men and women you'll have far more equality in regards to pay.

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

I meant his company rather than society in general. I see a lot more hands on dads now than ever before and its great. But there are still men who are a bit self conscious about it just as there are women who are still of the mindset that the fathers of their children are little more than children themselves who can't be trusted to take care of a child.

I suppose it depends on the situation really, I mean, I see a lot more hands-on fathers too, but that's because a good many of them are unemployed. Having talked to a few of them, a good many of them would rather be employed given the choice between staying at home with their children, and being employed.

I've seen that attitude in women too but it's not really all that common in my experience (my wife who is a stay at home parent, may have mentioned it a couple of times alright over the years :pac:).

To Elland Back

crockholm wrote: »

Yet Sweden functions,so perhaps you could be wrong;)

Well, I've seen 1st hand the effect it can have here with our current allowance, so perhaps I could be right.

dinny_byrne

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I suppose it depends on the situation really, I mean, I see a lot more hands-on fathers too, but that's because a good many of them are unemployed. Having talked to a few of them, a good many of them would rather be employed given the choice between staying at home with their children, and being employed.

I've seen that attitude in women too but it's not really all that common in my experience (my wife who is a stay at home parent, may have mentioned it a couple of times alright over the years :pac:).

perish the thought women might be more inclined to stay at home and bring up baby

everything traditional must be ridiculed

UCDVet

If you were going to pay me 90% of my regular wage, hell yes, I would take every single day I possibly could.

jaykay74

dinny_byrne wrote: »

perish the thought women might be more inclined to stay at home and bring up baby

everything traditional must be ridiculed

Nice for the choice to be with the parents surely on who stays at home and who works during the parental leave time. What suits one family doesn't always suit the next.

UCDVet

Doesn't this discriminate against those who, can't or don't want, to have children though?

jaykay74

UCDVet wrote: »

Doesn't this discriminate against those who, can't or don't want, to have children though?

So does all maternity/parental leave, childrens allowance? I guess those kids would argue in later life why should they pay for your pension... swings and roundabouts.

Lu Tze

Tearin It Up wrote: »

So thats the number one thing to sort out first. Of course the debt is parents fault and fathers who have worked and paid tax aren't allowed time off to raise their kids?

dark crystal wrote: »

My partner and I pay taxes just like you, just like the Swedish pay their taxes. We have a similar GDP to Sweden, but they think long term and prioritise better.

What's the difference between men or women taking parental leave in terms of the country's debt? How has Sweden's economy managed to hold up?

Quote me, yet dont address the issue?

tritium wrote: »

Would avail of it in a heartbeat, wish it had been an option when my kids were born. I'm not sure why the paying for it question is an issue anymore than it is for existing maternity leave which extends well beyond any medical need. You could make it near zero cost simply by either giving the option to or just splitting existing maternity leave beyond some point, say 16 -20 weeks, with the same for the option also unpaid element

Just to note the 12% take up refers to men equally splitting the leave (as they can). Sweden may still have some work to do on gender equality if men won't or can't avail of a decent split of the leave. Will be interesting to know if they do anything to improve this.

Look at this, somebody actually came up with a proposal! Cost neutral as well! I agree with this, it would also help with gender discrimination in the hiring process (the work culture will eventually follow suit as people avaiil of this).

My main point was there are loads of great ideas which could improve society as whole, like this one, but unless you can come up with a way to pay for it, it's pie in the sky.

Would people be happy with a voluntary contribution to fund (or partially fund) this i.e. anybody planning to have kids and wants paternity leave pays in? Would need to be paying in advance of conception to be eligible obviously.

tritium

crockholm wrote: »

From the relationship.Employers hands are tied and dare not kick up a fuss about it.Mammas just like to meet up with their other friends with kids for kaffe and fika,you best not take that from them.:pac:

Ah, thought that was what you meant alright. Tbh unless male paternity leave is separate and compulsory I can't see how to avoid this unfortunately. Are you aware of any push over there to address this issue?

One eyed Jack

dinny_byrne wrote: »

perish the thought women might be more inclined to stay at home and bring up baby

everything traditional must be ridiculed

dinny can you help me out here?

I'm not sure why you quoted my post, and I'm not sure what you're trying to say or if you're actually being serious or sarcastic?

crockholm

tritium wrote: »

Ah, thought that was what you meant alright. Tbh unless male paternity leave is separate and compulsory I can't see how to avoid this unfortunately. Are you aware of any push over there to address this issue?

There probably are rumblings from FI-The feminist party,but nobody really listens to that lot anyway.
There is a compulsory 2 months to each parent that can be taken until the kid is 8,if it is not used it is lost.Problem is that you have to take them out of pre-school and there is no guarantee that they will be admitted to the same Dagis (kindergarten).

I Think it works just fine at the minute tbh,If one partner is better with kids,more tolerant,why not give that parent the lions share?
If one parent earns considerably more than the other,it makes financial sense that the lower earner should take the parental leave to maximize the household budget.

IMO, it's a case of "if it ain't broke,don't fix it"

Cold War Kid

Lack of sleep AND having to do a day's work, and helping out with the baby when home from work... makes me think I would definitely avail if I were a man. That's not to say it's not still hard when a stay-at-home parent, but at least there isn't a full-time job in the workplace to do also.
I would understand men not taking the entire paternity leave though - there seems to come a point where the desire to return to working/getting out of the house kicks in, and that goes for mothers too.

Manach

Now if they expanded it for Elderly care maybe. But given that this yet more costs to the private sector, unlikely to be implemented on economic grounds.

eviltwin

dinny_byrne wrote: »

perish the thought women might be more inclined to stay at home and bring up baby

everything traditional must be ridiculed

There is nothing a mother can do that a father can't. Except breastfeeding. To imply that a mother makes for a better upbringing is an insult to mothers and fathers everywhere. Its an insult to men like my husband and my dad who have both been stay at home dads and done great jobs. There are many women who earn more than their partners and as it stands they are the ones who have to take the maternity leave. Maternity benefit here is small so it often is the case women have to return early, wouldn't it be great if they could do that and leave the child with dad so he gets some time to bond and enjoy the experience?

Addle

jaykay74 wrote: »

So does all maternity/parental leave, childrens allowance? I guess those kids would argue in later life why should they pay for your pension... swings and roundabouts.

Everyone gets a pension.

I wouldn't want to be the employer that has to pay people not to work for so long.

I'm a public servant and parental leave (unpaid) is an option for both parents. Where I work, most fathers transfer their entitlements to the mother.