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Proposed IT Carlow/WIT Merger
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Lots commute for a while, then get a job or start a business locally. Therefore adding value to a place like Carlow. It's definitely not the entirely negative thing you appear to paint it to be here...it can even benefit Waterford as any population growth should be seen a boon to the South east, as these new people may even decide to go to Waterford for college, do business etc etc...
Lots don't. The fact is the well paid jobs are based in Dublin to a much higher level. It might not be "entirely" negative. I am sure lots of people are making the most of a bad situation which is probably how they ended up there in the first place. Tell me this if Carlow is so charming why did this rush to live there not happen before the boom?0 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_populationfuzzy dunlop wrote: »Kildare is not, Never was and never will be in the Hinterland of Carlow. This is as ludicrous as saying Dublin is in the hinterland of Carlow. There are at least two towns in Kildare larger than Carlow and about four more almost the same size and Laois has its own population centres.Kildare and Wicklow are in their own distinct region which is the Greater Dublin Area.
Carlow is the 13th most populated urban centre in Ireland and the 9th largest town. It has a higher population than any town in Kildare, Laois, Tipperary, Wicklow, Wexford, Waterford (except city) and Kilkenny (except city).
You can confirm this yourself directly from the CSO here: http://census.cso.ie/areaprofiles
Like it or not, the surrounding counties of Laois, Kildare and Wicklow are within the hinterland of Carlow IT.
There are daily college bus routes running to Carlow IT serving Portlaoise, Abbeyleix, Monasterevan, Mountmellick, Portarlington and Naas.
Yes, it is indeed.fuzzy dunlop wrote: »Carlow is in the South East region and is on its periphery.
Carlow IT is on the northern periphery of the SE and central to a large area by virtue of geography.
Waterford IT is on the southern periphery of the SE and central to a much smaller area by virtue of geography.
When it comes to hinterland there is no reason why Waterford should be the sole focus. Both institutions combined would cater for the entire SE and surrounding counties.0 -
More independant comment on the TU situation in the times today. A very resonable and accurate commentry
Can I hear some arguments on why points like these aren't true or don't reflect the situation
"The risks of proceeding are not well-covered in the report. There is a brief mention of the need for further resources, and more detail on the importance of achieving a common vision. It is proposed to finish in three years or less, which I believe to be unrealistic. The Dublin technological university process, which Kelly leads, and which has full support from all the ITs involved, has taken longer than this already."
"I see further major risks in proceeding. First, neither IT is ready. They dislike each other, and do not trust each other. Much work is needed to bring the two organisations on board, and it may not be possible to do so. It is regrettable this has happened, but it would be worse to pretend it has not, or that it does not matter."
"The price of moving ahead will be high. The direct costs of the merger will be, I think, a minimum of €4 million. There is also a big opportunity cost. Neither IT will have management time to develop themselves during the merger. They may not have the time, energy and resources to manage themselves properly.
There is a real risk of the merger dragging on for several years, with acrimony, suspicion and misery, and ultimately failing. This would do serious damage to the reputation of both ITs and the wider sector.
More importantly, it might lead to a real decline in the quality of teaching, business engagement, and research in the southeast, a decline which could take many years to reverse."
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/warning-over-merger-plan-for-waterford-it-and-it-carlow-in-south-east-1.23078320 -
I want to ask the people of ITCarlow a question ,Have you taken the risks of the TU merger into account. I think the development of ITcarlow has been brillantly done over the last number of years and it is probably the most progressive and well run ITs in the country especially in the lifelong learing area.In this whole TU clamour and political hyperbole have you considered the damage the TU the whole process could do to both organisations and how Carlows growth could be stunted.
As the opinion piece says
"The price of moving ahead will be high. The direct costs of the merger will be, I think, a minimum of €4 million. There is also a big opportunity cost. Neither IT will have management time to develop themselves during the merger. They may not have the time, energy and resources to manage themselves properly."
Whether you are a merger cheerleader or not you have to acknowledge the TU process will suck peoples time and resources away from the day to day work of developing the institute and take managements eye off the ball on the short term growth. Even in something like marketing how do we communicate to the leaving cert student we are merging but we are not a TU yet and have no doubt the uncertainty will put people off and hurt the numbers in both colleges during this process which will have no doubt drag on for years ( as the commentary say the TU4dublin merger has taken longer than three years and the involves 3 institutes enthusiastic and fully supportive of the merger)
And at the end of the day there is no guarantee that this merger will be approved for TU status although that has never been addressed in any of the commentary around the Kelly report or in the kelly report.
So the question is , is this TU process worth the risk.0 -
So a DCU professor in a college which competes head on for funding and crucially students (DCU Id very popular in Carlow/Kilkenny) finds fault/sees risks with the possible creation of a University next door...shocker!0
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So a DCU professor in a college which competes head on for funding and crucially students (DCU Id very popular in Carlow/Kilkenny) finds fault/sees risks with the possible creation of a University next door...shocker!
That doesn't mean his questions he has raised aren't legitimate.
for example
"It is proposed to finish in three years or less, which I believe to be unrealistic. The Dublin technological university process, which Kelly leads, and which has full support from all the ITs involved, has taken longer than this already."
Is that not a valid real world comment. The 3 years statement is just a political smokescreen which takes no account of the structures of the process0 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_population
Carlow is the 13th most populated urban centre in Ireland and the 9th largest town. It has a higher population than any town in Kildare, Laois, Tipperary, Wicklow, Wexford, Waterford (except city) and Kilkenny (except city).
You can confirm this yourself directly from the CSO here: http://census.cso.ie/areaprofiles
And none of these towns are dependent on Carlow in any meaningful way. All of these towns have their own services in almost every level which negates the type of interaction that enables Carlow to claim them as being in their Hinterland.Like it or not, the surrounding counties of Laois, Kildare and Wicklow are within the hinterland of Carlow IT.
There are daily college bus routes running to Carlow IT serving Portlaoise, Abbeyleix, Monasterevan, Mountmellick, Portarlington and Naas.
There are no dedicated bus routes to Carlow IT. The dedicated bus routes are to Maynooth hence they are the ones finished in May:D The other "College routes" are part of routes to Waterford and other locations.Yes, it is indeed.
Carlow IT is on the northern periphery of the SE and central to a large area by virtue of geography.
Waterford IT is on the southern periphery of the SE and central to a much smaller area by virtue of geography.
How so? The completely contrived "geography" you are using includes areas that are in Greater Dublin. Has Carlow IT more students from these counties attending colleges in institutes from Kildare, Dublin or Waterford? Carlow IT's so called hinterland is probably better served by institutions in other areas. Within the South East Waterford is the centre by virtue of geography, demographics and communications. There is no public transport or communications hub in Carlow. No ports.No medical facilities operating on a regional level or cultural facilities. It is a dormitory area of the SE and GDA.There is no existing region that Carlow is the centre of.0 -
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I said they are within the hinterland of Carlow IT, which they are undeniably are.fuzzy dunlop wrote: »And none of these towns are dependent on Carlow in any meaningful way. All of these towns have their own services in almost every level which negates the type of interaction that enables Carlow to claim them as being in their Hinterland.
So the fact JJ Kavanagh have "COLLEGE TERM ONLY" printed on their timetables for these routes doesn't matter :eek:? None of those bus routes I mentioned go any further than Carlow.fuzzy dunlop wrote: »There are no dedicated bus routes to Carlow IT. The dedicated bus routes are to Maynooth hence they are the ones finished in May:D The other "College routes" are part of routes to Waterford and other locations.
Nothing contrived, like with Waterford IT a great many of Carlow IT's students naturally come from neighbouring counties.fuzzy dunlop wrote: »How so? The completely contrived "geography" you are using includes areas that are in Greater Dublin. Has Carlow IT more students from these counties attending colleges in institutes from Kildare, Dublin or Waterford? Carlow IT's so called hinterland is probably better served by institutions in other areas.
Certainly not by geography. Not being a transport hub doesn't seem to be much of a problem so far. There's plenty of comms and cultural facilities and it's on the same M9 and rail line as Waterford.fuzzy dunlop wrote: »Within the South East Waterford is the centre by virtue of geography, demographics and communications. There is no public transport or communications hub in Carlow. No ports.No medical facilities operating on a regional level or cultural facilities. It is a dormitory area of the SE and GDA.
Likewise with Waterford, it's not in the centre of the SE. Carlow IT and Waterford IT are at opposite peripheries of the SE but Carlow's catchment area means it can bring in students from outside the SE which should be good for a SE uni.fuzzy dunlop wrote: »There is no existing region that Carlow is the centre of.
Tbh I'm not sure why you're arguing location and hinterland. Carlow IT already exists and is growing so there is a proven demand for it's services despite it's existing proximity to Dublin and WIT. How would a uni comprising WIT-ITC change that demand?0 -
Ah here you need to take a trip to Carlow, no cultural facilities? How about the George Bernard Shaw theatre? A near €20 million facility, the envy of nearby Kilkenny which is lauded as a cultural hotspot. The rest is just going around in circles, achieving nothing but continual denial of realities here, geographic and demographic ones.0
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I said they are within the hinterland of Carlow IT, which they are undeniably are.
So the fact JJ Kavanagh have "COLLEGE TERM ONLY" printed on their timetables for these routes doesn't matter :eek:? None of those bus routes I mentioned go any further than Carlow.
There is only one bus route specifically serving an academic facility and that is Maynooth. The other routes are part of other major routes such as Waterford to Dublin airport. Therefor the Carlow routes are for the most part "on the way" to somewhere elseNothing contrived, like with Waterford IT a great many of Carlow IT's students naturally come from neighbouring counties.
Certainly not by geography. Not being a transport hub doesn't seem to be much of a problem so far. There's plenty of comms and cultural facilities and it's on the same M9 and rail line as Waterford.
Likewise with Waterford, it's not in the centre of the SE. Carlow IT and Waterford IT are at opposite peripheries of the SE but Carlow's catchment area means it can bring in students from outside the SE which should be good for a SE uni.
So far anyone from Carlow IT has been only able to mention the M9 when it comes to transport routes:D All the inter-urban routes in the region on a national and regional level serve Waterford. Waterford is the centre of the region demographically. Carlow has no such advantage. Carlow IT's so called "catchement area" has only one county that has more students than Waterford in any meaningful way and that is Kildare. Carlow IT's "catchement area" is within WIT's catchement area. There is nowhere else in the region that has the concentration of social and cultural amenties as Waterford hence it being the centre of the region. It's why we don't have to make up "catchement areas"Tbh I'm not sure why you're arguing location and hinterland. Carlow IT already exists and is growing so there is a proven demand for it's services despite it's existing proximity to Dublin and WIT. How would a uni comprising WIT-ITC change that demand?
I am arguing hinterland because the promoters of Carlow IT have brought it up as part of the case for Carlow. I am arguing that Carlow IT does not dominate this hinterland it is claiming exists as its own. The numbers are so small in some cases that they cannot be useful. Only in one county in this so called hinterland does Carlow out perform Waterford when it comes to enrollements and that is Kildare. In every other county bordering Carlow, WIT outperforms Carlow by a country mile including Wexford, where Carlow IT has a campus.And epecially Kilkenny. So the facts are WIT covers a much larger geopgraphic area than Carlow IT. A merged institute with such a history of animosity will do nothing to change that.0 -
Ah here you need to take a trip to Carlow, no cultural facilities? How about the George Bernard Shaw theatre? A near €20 million facility, the envy of nearby Kilkenny which is lauded as a cultural hotspot. The rest is just going around in circles, achieving nothing but continual denial of realities here, geographic and demographic ones.
One swallow doesn't make a summer. Likewise the only person denying realities is your good self with your "dream" of Waterford decline and denigration of anyone including major academics who don't drink the merger koolaid0 -
You're not really getting it fuzzy. The Department of Education want these mergers to happen so they won't be funding a university for waterford. This is a cost reduction exercise ( much like the healthcare area ) because health and education make up the bulk of exchequer spending. So work away with your redrawing of hinterlands and catchment areas because the final decision will be made by the funders of this. Belittling Carlow IT does not alter this fact.0
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nifeidirliom wrote: »You're not really getting it fuzzy. The Department of Education want these mergers to happen so they won't be funding a university for waterford. This is a cost reduction exercise ( much like the healthcare area ) because health and education make up the bulk of exchequer spending. So work away with your redrawing of hinterlands and catchment areas because the final decision will be made by the funders of this. Belittling Carlow IT does not alter this fact.
No you're not getting it! The "cost reduction" exercise has been exposed as a joke and nothing but a political manuvere.There is an election on the horizon and the government won't dare force this through before that. .They have to win the election then to keep it on the agenda! Even if they are stupid enough to put it on the statute books it can be easily undone.The fact that you're still bringing up "cost saving" at this stage of the arguement shows you have just entered the debate or are clutching at straws.Anyone academic who isn't a government yes man paid to provide some "report" telling the governmemt what they want to hear has completely pissed all over the idea. BTW I am not redrawing any hinterlands. The only redrawing of anything is the idea that some made up hinterland exists for the benefit of Carlow IT. This "hinterland" isn't found anywhere except from the lips of a supporter of Carlow IT. This isn't belittling Carlow IT. It is a reflection of reality and that reality is that the days of inflating figures for catchement areas is over and died with the property bubble. The insistence that this is a done deal is an act of pure desperation and the only ones that seem to "need it" is Carlow IT.
And Congrats on your first post.....0 -
Fuzzy_Dunlop, can you please state your interest here in relation to the whole debate.
Are you an employee of WIT? and why are you constantly trying to belittle the whole process?
I am an associate lecturer in Carlow so I am totally familiar with how the process has proceeded so far as well as being able to determine the strengths and weaknesses of Carlow as referred to in an earlier post.
As I have previously stated we need proper education facilities in this country and seriously need to raise the standards and this cannot be achieved by allowing parish pump politics to influence. The whole process of moving from IT to university status will raise standards as lecturers will have to be educated to level 10 - after a bedding in period - which in itself already raises the status of the merged establishments.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that WIT is anywhere near the standard of MIT!0 -
oscillating wildely wrote: »Fuzzy_Dunlop, can you please state your interest here in relation to the whole debate.
My interest in this debate is to highlight the fact the the merger proposal is the product of parochial political endeavors within the region and nothing at all to do with the delivery of education.oscillating wildely wrote: »Are you an employee of WIT? and why are you constantly trying to belittle the whole process?
Do I need to be an employee of WIT? This level of thinking shows the difference in atitude in Waterford and Carlow on this particular issue. In any case the answer is no I am not.Because the process is driven by political opportunism which will be detrimental to both WIT and ITC that is why I am opposed to it...oscillating wildely wrote: »I am an associate lecturer in Carlow so I am totally familiar with how the process has proceeded so far as well as being able to determine the strengths and weaknesses of Carlow as referred to in an earlier post..
So you are a vested interest .oscillating wildely wrote: »As I have previously stated we need proper education facilities in this country and seriously need to raise the standards and this cannot be achieved by allowing parish pump politics to influence. The whole process of moving from IT to university status will raise standards as lecturers will have to be educated to level 10 - after a bedding in period - which in itself already raises the status of the merged establishments.
Non of which is dependent on a merger between WIT and Carlow IT or any other IT for that matter. The whole topic of mergers has no rlation to delivery of education in the region or nationally.The insistence on this particular merger is specifically driven by parish pump politics as was shown by the prime time report. The initial proposal was for WIT and CIT. It was political forces who changed this to Carlow.oscillating wildely wrote: »Don't fool yourself into thinking that WIT is anywhere near the standard of MIT!
Never said it was. A serious poor conclusion to make from someone who claims to be an associate lecturer.I hope you're more critical with your students than that...0 -
oscillating wildely wrote: »As I have previously stated we need proper education facilities in this country and seriously need to raise the standards and this cannot be achieved by allowing parish pump politics to influence. The whole process of moving from IT to university status will raise standards as lecturers will have to be educated to level 10 - after a bedding in period - which in itself already raises the status of the merged establishments.
I completely agree that we need proper education facilities in this country.
But your next statement makes no sense
"this cannot be achieved by allowing parish pump politics to influence"
This whole process is driven by parish pump politics , it was a fudge created by Phil Hogan and Brendan Howlin with local politics rather than education in mind. If you cant see that this process is a political game you are dreadfully naive.
Also your statement
"The whole process of moving from IT to university status will raise standards as lecturers will have to be educated to level 10 - after a bedding in period - which in itself already raises the status of the merged establishments."
How long will this take , how will it be funded , how long will both institutions have to merge as a Frankenstein IT of the southeast till they can get TU status ( a fact that seems to overlooked by our politicians and vested interests).How much will the uncertainty of this whole process damage student number in both institutes
The Kelly report suggests three years which again is a sop to local politics and vested interests as the TU for Dublin has already took longer that that and is still a longway away from TU status and that is involving 3 institutes who are enthusiastic and trusting of each other.Lets be realistic about and talk about the real facts of this process rather than a misty eye academic idea of a university.0 -
Why are fuzzy_dunlop and imacman so consumed with the political aspect at present yet have ignored the past political influence exerted by Martin Cullen when he was a sitting TD. There is one huge political factor that neither one of you have mentioned which is probably a non-runner now seeing as its proponent is now based in Brussels.
The whole debate should be about education and the fact that people like yourselves are demeaning it to a parochial agenda illustrates the problems with both politics and education in Ireland. The argument here should be based around education only and nothing else should be clouding it.
I stated my position as an ASSOCIATE lecturer so that my cards were on the table and whether or not university status is granted is irrelevant to my position. But being that I lecture part-time and also run a business I do think it gives me a much more rounded appraisal of what is required to align business with the academic world.
In relation to who will pay for level 10 status to be achieved by lecturers, it is the lecturer who pays as they do today and in fact it should probably be written into any formal agreement that lecturers who haven't achieved level 10 within say six years will have their contracts terminated. The process at present is having no effect on students but going forward it will as more and more countries adopt a consolidated education sector that will raise their standards whilst we are left in limbo because people can't get over their small-mindedness.
The alignment of MIT to WIT is a paraphrase of one of yours posts in the Waterford forum fuzzy_dunlop so maybe you should take a closer look at what you write.0 -
oscillating wildely wrote: »Why are fuzzy_dunlop and imacman so consumed with the political aspect at present yet have ignored the past political influence exerted by Martin Cullen when he was a sitting TD. There is one huge political factor that neither one of you have mentioned which is probably a non-runner now seeing as its proponent is now based in Brussels.
The whole debate should be about education and the fact that people like yourselves are demeaning it to a parochial agenda illustrates the problems with both politics and education in Ireland. The argument here should be based around education only and nothing else should be clouding it.
Absolutely Martin Cullen did his best to bring a university and came very close to it in the early 2000 but ill health and his mid ranking cabinet position meant he couldn't close the deal.
So while your argument about education the key factor here is noble the reality here is its about politics. The thing is if Mr hogan who was in an immense position of power after supporting Enda in the last heave against him had being representing Waterford rather than Carlow/Kilkenny have no doubt WIT would be moving down the road to a university on its own.oscillating wildely wrote: »In relation to who will pay for level 10 status to be achieved by lecturers, it is the lecturer who pays as they do today and in fact it should probably be written into any formal agreement that lecturers who haven't achieved level 10 within say six years will have their contracts terminated.
You really think something like that would fly with the unions, lectures contracts terminated because that don't reach performance targets now that is naive0 -
oscillating wildely wrote: »Why are fuzzy_dunlop and imacman so consumed with the political aspect at present yet have ignored the past political influence exerted by Martin Cullen when he was a sitting TD. There is one huge political factor that neither one of you have mentioned which is probably a non-runner now seeing as its proponent is now based in Brussels.
Martin Cullen has nothing to do with the issue. Even if it did why do you think this vindicates anybody or anything? Do you think this somehow supports the idea of a merger? No it merely qualifies what we are saying that it is driven by parochialism and not by delivery of education. You will find very few in Waterford that would mourn the passing of a political system that meant we did not have to rely on people like Martin Cullen. Can Kilkenny, Carlow and Wexford say the same? Can anywhere else in the region make the case for investment in a transparent system without the need for gombeen politicians.Perhaps but definitely not to the same level.oscillating wildely wrote: »The whole debate should be about education and the fact that people like yourselves are demeaning it to a parochial agenda illustrates the problems with both politics and education in Ireland. The argument here should be based around education only and nothing else should be clouding it.
It was demeaned to a parochial agenda when politicians like John Paul Phelan and others in Carlow specifically insisted that any upgrade of WIT should also have Carlow included in an upgrade. There was no such caveat coming from Wexford and Kilkenny. This was previously reported by John Cleere in his newspaper op piece. So any parochialism within the SE regarding the Uni issue is 100% coming from Carlow. Waterford have been doing the heavy lifting on the issue for years and when it finally gets on the agenda Carlow comes along with their "me too " attitude. Even to the point of cynically exploiting the fears expressed in the Port report when WIT applied under existing legislation.oscillating wildely wrote: »I stated my position as an ASSOCIATE lecturer so that my cards were on the table and whether or not university status is granted is irrelevant to my position. But being that I lecture part-time and also run a business I do think it gives me a much more rounded appraisal of what is required to align business with the academic world.
If you say so but I have my own qualifications and business experience and seeing as what you are saying does not resonate with anyone despite those who have a vested interest in the merger. The number of leading academics that have poured scorn on the idea that have no axe to grind suggests you are driven by tribal loyalties.oscillating wildely wrote: »In relation to who will pay for level 10 status to be achieved by lecturers, it is the lecturer who pays as they do today and in fact it should probably be written into any formal agreement that lecturers who haven't achieved level 10 within say six years will have their contracts terminated. The process at present is having no effect on students but going forward it will as more and more countries adopt a consolidated education sector that will raise their standards whilst we are left in limbo because people can't get over their small-mindedness.
And how is this going to be retroactively applied to existing contracts?It can't And it doesn't change the fact that the percentage of staff in a merged institute will have less of this qualifications that if WIT went alone. You are out of your mind if you think lecturers are going to sign up to that without provoking industrial action. You are so desperate for inclusion that you are making fantastic claims that existing lecturers will sign up to something that could potentially cause them to lose their jobs. But what I find interesting is that no-one from Carlow has yet explained why they have made no overtures to AIT or anyone else for merger proposal?oscillating wildely wrote: »The alignment of MIT to WIT is a paraphrase of one of yours posts in the Waterford forum fuzzy_dunlop so maybe you should take a closer look at what you write.
It is not a paraphrase. You attributed something to me that I didn't say. My response was to Ja Crispy's assertion that the WIT will be at an advantage because it will not have the TU title. It was in the context of nomenclature not in comparisons to MIT. In any case well done you further reinforced my point and undermined Ja Crispy's initial assertion.0 -
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Can our learned friends give their views on this excerpt from the National Strategy for Higher Education to 2030 - Report of the Strategy Group (Hunt Report) 2011.
"There is no case for the establishment of any new universities in Ireland on the basis
set out in Section 9 of the Universities Act,1997; and in the interest of retaining a broad
diversity of activity within the system and the efficient use of resources, no application
to convert any institute of technology into a university should be considered.
Similarly, the proposal recently put forward by a number of institutes of technology
for the creation of a single federal national technological university runs counter to the
regional cluster approach outlined above.
However, there may be a case for facilitating the evolution of some existing institutes
following a process of consolidation, into a form of university that is different in mission from the existing Irish universities." ( pgs. 101,102 )
I don't see any politicians in the group.
Chairman: Dr Colin Hunt, Macquarie Capital Advisers
Dr Mary Canning, Former World Bank Lead Education Specialist and authority member,HEA
Peter Cassells, Chair, National Centre for Partnership and Performance
John Casteen*, President, University of Virginia, USA
Marion Coy, President, Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology
Mary Doyle, Assistant Secretary, Department of the Taoiseach
Dr John Hegarty, Provost, Trinity College Dublin
Michael Kelly, Chairman of Higher Education Authority
Shane Kelly, President, Union of Students in Ireland
Dick Lehane, former Senior Vice-President of Worldwide Manufacturing, EMC Corporation
Brigid McManus, Secretary General, Department of Education & Skills
Paul Rellis, Managing Director, Microsoft Ireland
Martin Shanagher, Assistant Secretary, Department of Enterprise Trade & Innovation
Professor Jussi Välimaa Professor, Finnish Institute for Educational Research, University of
Jyväskylä, Finland
Robert Watt, Assistant Secretary, Department of Finance
* Due to unforeseen commitments, President Casteen was unable to attend the majority of the meetings of the Group.
The Strategy Group were assisted in their work by an international panel of higher education experts, who are listed in full in Appendix D.
International Panel of Experts
Prof Peter Coaldrake, Vice Chancellor Queensland University of Technology, Australia
Professor Sir Graeme Davis, Chair of Northern Ireland HE Strategy Group
Prof Malcolm Grant, Provost, University College London
Dr. Simon Marginson, Centre for the Study of Higher Education, University of Melbourne, Australia
Aims McGuinness, Snr Associate National Centre for Higher Education Management Systems
(NCHEMS) USA
Paul Ramsden, Former Chief Executive of Higher Education Academy, UK
Jamil Salmi, Tertiary Education Co-ordinator, World Bank
Dirk Van Damme, Head of Centre for Educational Research and Innovation, OECD
Prof. Frans van Vught, President of the European Centre for Strategic Management of
Universities and Member of the EC Group of Societal Policy Advisors0 -
nifeidirliom wrote: »Can our learned friends give their views on this excerpt from the National Strategy for Higher Education to 2030 - Report of the Strategy Group (Hunt Report) 2011.
"There is no case for the establishment of any new universities in Ireland on the basis
set out in Section 9 of the Universities Act,1997; and in the interest of retaining a broad
diversity of activity within the system and the efficient use of resources, no application
to convert any institute of technology into a university should be considered.
Similarly, the proposal recently put forward by a number of institutes of technology
for the creation of a single federal national technological university runs counter to the
regional cluster approach outlined above.
However, there may be a case for facilitating the evolution of some existing institutes
following a process of consolidation, into a form of university that is different in mission from the existing Irish universities." ( pgs. 101,102 )
I don't see any politicians in the group.
Chairman: Dr Colin Hunt, Macquarie Capital Advisers
Dr Mary Canning, Former World Bank Lead Education Specialist and authority member,HEA
Peter Cassells, Chair, National Centre for Partnership and Performance
John Casteen*, President, University of Virginia, USA
Marion Coy, President, Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology
Mary Doyle, Assistant Secretary, Department of the Taoiseach
Dr John Hegarty, Provost, Trinity College Dublin
Michael Kelly, Chairman of Higher Education Authority
Shane Kelly, President, Union of Students in Ireland
Dick Lehane, former Senior Vice-President of Worldwide Manufacturing, EMC Corporation
Brigid McManus, Secretary General, Department of Education & Skills
Paul Rellis, Managing Director, Microsoft Ireland
Martin Shanagher, Assistant Secretary, Department of Enterprise Trade & Innovation
Professor Jussi Välimaa Professor, Finnish Institute for Educational Research, University of
Jyväskylä, Finland
Robert Watt, Assistant Secretary, Department of Finance
* Due to unforeseen commitments, President Casteen was unable to attend the majority of the meetings of the Group.
The Strategy Group were assisted in their work by an international panel of higher education experts, who are listed in full in Appendix D.
International Panel of Experts
Prof Peter Coaldrake, Vice Chancellor Queensland University of Technology, Australia
Professor Sir Graeme Davis, Chair of Northern Ireland HE Strategy Group
Prof Malcolm Grant, Provost, University College London
Dr. Simon Marginson, Centre for the Study of Higher Education, University of Melbourne, Australia
Aims McGuinness, Snr Associate National Centre for Higher Education Management Systems
(NCHEMS) USA
Paul Ramsden, Former Chief Executive of Higher Education Academy, UK
Jamil Salmi, Tertiary Education Co-ordinator, World Bank
Dirk Van Damme, Head of Centre for Educational Research and Innovation, OECD
Prof. Frans van Vught, President of the European Centre for Strategic Management of
Universities and Member of the EC Group of Societal Policy Advisors
Maybe you should give your own views first.....Common courtesy and all that! because if you think this gives credence to any reason WIT and IT Carlow should be merged then you are sadly mistaken. It says the complete opposite.....
Hunt, Kelly, Port none of which say WIT and Carlow should be merged. None of which say how to effectively address the deficit in education levels in the SE. All reports commissioned by the government to address the University issue in Waterford and the South East. I will believe a government report when it does not use terms of references so narrow that they are designed to inhibit instead of answering the question of how to deliver the quality of employment and education enjoyed in most other parts of the country. It is telling that the advocates for Carlow IT take comfort in this......0 -
I have no problem giving my views ( not sure what common curtesy has to do with it ) but I notice you haven't actually given any opinion about what should be done. I am aware that you have a poor opinion of Carlow IT and of political favouritism, that you think the merger is a bad idea and that provision of employment and education are linked. I won't labour this point ( unlike your good self ) but I will give a quote from the Kelly report ( I know you don't like reports that don't agree with your point of view ).
"Equality of esteem has proved difficult to establish, reflecting a widely-held view in WIT that they are already ‘at university level’. Many instances of negative commentary, formal and informal, have been unhelpful and hurtful to staff and students and corrosive to the process of collaboration".
This appears to sum up the Waterford position.
My view on the merger is that with the above stance it is doomed to failure. Unfortunately for Carlow, they are geographically located nearest to Waterford. As these mergers are based around a critical mass of students the only other possibility of a merger for Carlow is a Dublin IT. Logically maybe Waterford should have gone in with Cork but that who would be the junior partner then? It is a shame that Waterford need to belittle Carlow in their futile attempt at acquiring university status. Technical Universities are the only option on the table if University status is required and the other IT's are abiding by the requirements ( I know, everyone else is out of step). Waterford don't do co-operation so the " Strategic Alliance" approach is out.
BTW I think it is quite funny that you haven't mentioned the Taylor report which was commissioned by WIT and would support your point of view. Maybe its because the draft report could not be agreed upon and it vanished into the ether!0 -
nifeidirliom wrote: »I have no problem giving my views ( not sure what common curtesy has to do with it ) but I notice you haven't actually given any opinion about what should be done. I am aware that you have a poor opinion of Carlow IT and of political favouritism, that you think the merger is a bad idea and that provision of employment and education are linked. I won't labour this point ( unlike your good self ) but I will give a quote from the Kelly report ( I know you don't like reports that don't agree with your point of view ).
Don't expect others to make your points for you which is what you essentially did by posting excerpts from the hunt report without any substantive comment. If you have no problem giving your views then give them. My opinion about what should be done is to leave the IT's as they are and create a standalone university. Or else just upgrade WIT which was what was supposed to be done way back in 1994 instead of simply renaming all the RTC''S which I have already stated. But as a Carlow advocate you're obviously 30 odd years late to the debate so you're ignorance is excused.nifeidirliom wrote: »"Equality of esteem has proved difficult to establish, reflecting a widely-held view in WIT that they are already ‘at university level’. Many instances of negative commentary, formal and informal, have been unhelpful and hurtful to staff and students and corrosive to the process of collaboration".
This appears to sum up the Waterford position.
It also sums up Carlow's who are well capable of their snide remarks . So the innocent "babe in the woods" routine from Carlow is a bit rich. You seem to forget they have also been mentioned in this regard.nifeidirliom wrote: »My view on the merger is that with the above stance it is doomed to failure. Unfortunately for Carlow, they are geographically located nearest to Waterford.
Their is no requirement for the merger to be with the nearest IT. Which begs the question why Carlow doesn't have the balls to look for another suitor. Have they done so? No they haven't! Why? Because the whole insistence on a merger between WIT and IT Carlow is about delivering pork barrell goodies back to the constituencies of Carlow/Kilkenny and Wexford.nifeidirliom wrote: »As these mergers are based around a critical mass of students the only other possibility of a merger for Carlow is a Dublin IT. Logically maybe Waterford should have gone in with Cork but that who would be the junior partner then? It is a shame that Waterford need to belittle Carlow in their futile attempt at acquiring university status. Technical Universities are the only option on the table if University status is required and the other IT's are abiding by the requirements ( I know, everyone else is out of step). Waterford don't do co-operation so the " Strategic Alliance" approach is out.
If our attempt is futile people like you have nothing to worry about as WIT is on a fools errand. However the fact that you and other have to reaffirm this and other assertions like the the merger being the only game in town indicates otherwise. The Hunt report makes no logical sense. The fear for people like you is not that WIT doesn't get an upgrade it is if it does. Because the "shotgun marriage" is the only game in town for Carlow. And as for your spurious claims about Waterford and co-operation it wasn't WIT who stopped the merger with CIT. It was Brendan Howlin and Phil Hogan which further makes a mockery of the whole thing as the benefits of critical mass and PHD among staff would have been even more developed.nifeidirliom wrote: »BTW I think it is quite funny that you haven't mentioned the Taylor report which was commissioned by WIT and would support your point of view. Maybe its because the draft report could not be agreed upon and it vanished into the ether!
Could not be agreed upon by who? The government? Carlow IT? The Taylor report was damning for Carlow. Therefore if it was quashed it wasn't by WIT. But the thing is the Taylor report tallies with most of the truly independent commentators in academia. These are the ones I have mentioned because like Hunt and Kelly, the Taylor report was commissioned by an interested party which dilutes its objectivity.
Nobody from Carlow has yet given a rational explanation as to why they haven't approached another IT. Why oh Why are they so desperate to be part of a merger with such mutual animosity? Fear of rejection perhaps?0 -
An interesting insight on the merger process from outgoing WIT governing body member councillor Mary Roche.
http://cllrmaryroche.blogspot.ie/2015/08/the-kelly-report-reviewed-technological.html?spref=tw0 -
IT Carlow announces new campus in Wexford. This will likely push the WIT cribbers over the edge now 😀.....0
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Great news for the South-East and great news for I.T. Carlow.“I am pleased to announce that the HEA has approved Institute of Technology Carlow’s proposal to acquire a suitable 35 acre site in a prime location in Wexford and I look forward to the development of the new campus which will support the economic, social and cultural development of the South East region. This announcement puts higher education on a firm footing in Wexford and this is the first step in the delivery of the Technological University for the region. This is a project that I have personally supported and I would like to thank my colleague Jan O’Sullivan, Minister for Education and Skills for allocating the funding to commence this project.”0
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A come on , can you not see this is pure stunt politics coming up to an election for Brendan Howlin . No where is there any of the press releases mention of any costing or time frame for this. If anything it seems like a loose commitment to develop this site which also hasn't been fully identified.Great news for the South-East and great news for I.T. Carlow.
Can anyone show me where this site is on google maps , they say its "located on a 35-acre site in a prime location in Wexford Town" , 35 acres is the size of a small farm.So where is it , who owned it , what was it in the past and how much did it cost.0 -
Could be this one.
http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/negotiations-underway-for-35acre-site-27693663.html
Much better off in Wexford IMO.0 -
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A come on , can you not see this is pure stunt politics coming up to an election for Brendan Howlin . No where is there any of the press releases mention of any costing or time frame for this. If anything it seems like a loose commitment to develop this site which also hasn't been fully identified.
Can anyone show me where this site is on google maps , they say its "located on a 35-acre site in a prime location in Wexford Town" , 35 acres is the size of a small farm.So where is it , who owned it , what was it in the past and how much did it cost.
Oh the details are there Wexford Campus are planning a launch I heard the site is next to Wexford County Council and Wexford Hospital and building plans have been drawn and Brendan Howlin has been working on this for awhile.0
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