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Proposed IT Carlow/WIT Merger

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    #122
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    road_high wrote: »
    IT Carlow announces new campus in Wexford. This will likely push the WIT cribbers over the edge now 😀.....

    http://9thlevel.ie/university-rankings/sunday-times-league-table/

    Some interesting reading in the Sunday Times university ranking league table
    ITcarlow drops from number 11 to number 19.
    If this was football carlow would now be in the relegation zone. And before anyone says these tables mean nothing ITCarlow is still trumpeting that they were Sunday Times institute of technology the Year 2 years ago

    351j1xl.jpg


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    #123
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    McLoughlin wrote: »
    Oh the details are there Wexford Campus are planning a launch I heard the site is next to Wexford County Council and Wexford Hospital and building plans have been drawn and Brendan Howlin has been working on this for awhile.
    A more classic Parish pump politics , if Howlin doesn't get back in after the election ( which is very possible as labour look like they are going to be decimated) dont bet on this project getting funding, it would never be a runner in the first place if Wexford didn't have a minister representing them.


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    #124
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,405 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    imacman wrote: »
    A more classic Parish pump politics , if Howlin doesn't get back in after the election ( which is very possible as labour look like they are going to be decimated) dont bet on this project getting funding, it would never be a runner in the first place if Wexford didn't have a minister representing them.

    Of course if this were new buildings in WIT it would not be a "parish pump" at all would it?
    But once you cross that Rice Bridge anything new is.
    See this is the problem with the Waterford city mindset/siege mentality, deeply hostile to any developments outside of their own city, particularly anywhere else in the SE that god forbid may benefit.

    Labour may not get in (have a feeling they will as there is ZERO alternative government vs a bunch of tax/oppose everything far lefties), but Wexford will elect two FG TD's as always, one of which is very influential at cabinet level so expect this to push on regardless, it's a key 5 seater with a population of 145k (last census).


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    #125
    McLoughlin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,907 ✭✭✭McLoughlin


    road_high wrote: »
    Of course if this were new buildings in WIT it would not be a "parish pump" at all would it?
    But once you cross that Rice Bridge anything new is.
    See this is the problem with the Waterford city mindset/siege mentality, deeply hostile to any developments outside of their own city, particularly anywhere else in the SE that god forbid may benefit.

    Labour may not get in (have a feeling they will as there is ZERO alternative government vs a bunch of tax/oppose everything far lefties), but Wexford will elect two FG TD's as always, one of which is very influential at cabinet level so expect this to push on regardless, it's a key 5 seater with a population of 145k (last census).

    With Brendan's record over the past few years Wexford would be foolish not to vote for him again


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    #126
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    road_high wrote: »
    Of course if this were new buildings in WIT it would not be a "parish pump" at all would it?
    But once you cross that Rice Bridge anything new is.
    See this is the problem with the Waterford city mindset/siege mentality, deeply hostile to any developments outside of their own city, particularly anywhere else in the SE that god forbid may benefit.

    Labour may not get in (have a feeling they will as there is ZERO alternative government vs a bunch of tax/oppose everything far lefties), but Wexford will elect two FG TD's as always, one of which is very influential at cabinet level so expect this to push on regardless, it's a key 5 seater with a population of 145k (last census).

    Well Phil Hogan or Howlin had been a Waterford TD WIT would be well on the way to University status on its own.The whole SETU disaster is all about politics not education.


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    #127
    oscillating wildely
    Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭oscillating wildely


    For some reason imacman keeps aligning the recent announcement regarding Wexford campus to the proposed WIT/ITC merger; they are two separate projects.

    The courses that are to be run on the new campus have already been passed by the academic council and recruitment is under way to progress the courses so there are no "maybe" or election dependent variables to be considered, it is a done deal.


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    #128
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    road_high wrote: »
    Of course if this were new buildings in WIT it would not be a "parish pump" at all would it?
    But once you cross that Rice Bridge anything new is.
    See this is the problem with the Waterford city mindset/siege mentality, deeply hostile to any developments outside of their own city, particularly anywhere else in the SE that god forbid may benefit.

    No this is the Phil Hogan/Brendan Howlin and your mindset! It's a peasant mentality that seems to think everything has to be spread out equally instead of a cost effective and efficient way. This is the historical trend and you stating the opposite on boards.ie won't change that fact anytime soon. Hence the foaming at the mouth by these two gombeens anytime anything is proposed for Waterford. Hence the need to break up a hospital network to divert services to Kilkenny. I wonder who be the contender for the most hated politician in Ireland be at the moment? An interesting survey that would make....


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    #129
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    Some more good commentary from Ferdinand von Prondzynski, ex president of DCU and now Principal and Vice-Chancellor of Robert Gordon University, Aberdeen . A real educator talking sense rather than local parish pump politicians or vested interests talking about the "region"
    https://universitydiary.wordpress.co...al-university/

    To Quote

    Secondly, and crucially, it is completely baffling why anyone would think that a merger should make two institutions more suited to be universities. The Waterford example is an instructive one. As I have suggested (and as many others have also concluded), very good arguments can be made for university status for WIT. However, the institute has been told that it can only be considered for such a status if it first merges with Carlow Institute of Technology. Carlow is a perfectly good institute, but has nowhere near the same claim for university status as Waterford. It has a much more modest research profile, and generally has a profile that is extremely valuable but not typical of a university. So how are we to make sense of the proposition that WIT is not good enough to be a university, but that if it merges with a weaker institute (and one with which it has no record of strategic collaboration) it will be more eligible? Frankly, this is totally crazy.


    Finally, there is no evidence that mergers between institutions based in different locations are a good idea. Those that have been tried have more often than not failed. There is, simply, a need for Irish policy makers more generally to stop thinking of mergers as a good solution to anything. The fixation on this objective has the potential to do damage to the system


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    #130
    JaCrispy
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JaCrispy


    Its blatantly obvious Mr Ferdinand von DontGiveAFcukWhatHisNameIs has a agenda. His commentary is based solely upon the WIT/ITC merger and the reasoning behind his conclusion could be applied to most of the mergers.

    Considering he chooses to ignore other mergers and focus his vitriol on ITC then you have got to ask.....what is his agenda?

    Has he ever even been in WIT or ITC?


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    #131
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    JaCrispy wrote: »
    Its blatantly obvious Mr Ferdinand von DontGiveAFcukWhatHisNameIs has a agenda. His commentary is based solely upon the WIT/ITC merger and the reasoning behind his conclusion could be applied to most of the mergers.

    Considering he chooses to ignore other mergers and focus his vitriol on ITC then you have got to ask.....what is his agenda?

    Has he ever even been in WIT or ITC?
    Fact is he doesn't have a dog in this race , i think he is bemused from an educator point of view with the whole merger or else mentality of the politicians. he has commented before in the same way about the Cork /Tralee merger.


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    #132
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    road_high wrote: »
    IT Carlow announces new campus in Wexford. This will likely push the WIT cribbers over the edge now 😀.....


    Nothing to worry about there. There is an election in a few months that will see the death of the labour party thanfully along with the SE University debacle. So if Carlow want to Break up there IT to support this which is the only way it will happen then more fool them!


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    #133
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    JaCrispy wrote: »
    Its blatantly obvious Mr Ferdinand von DontGiveAFcukWhatHisNameIs has a agenda. His commentary is based solely upon the WIT/ITC merger and the reasoning behind his conclusion could be applied to most of the mergers.

    Considering he chooses to ignore other mergers and focus his vitriol on ITC then you have got to ask.....what is his agenda?

    Has he ever even been in WIT or ITC?

    Why is it obvious he has an agenda other than he doesn't say what you want him to say? You have no reason or evidence to support any such thing. All the independent commentary supports his stance. As you know... Also how could it apply to most mergers when no other proposed merger has had such animosity between the institutions? Again denial of reality on your part is not evidence to support what you say.


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    #134
    JaCrispy
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JaCrispy


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    Why is it obvious he has an agenda other than he doesn't say what you want him to say? You have no reason or evidence to support any such thing. All the independent commentary supports his stance. As you know... Also how could it apply to most mergers when no other proposed merger has had such animosity between the institutions? Again denial of reality on your part is not evidence to support what you say.

    You are not reading my posts properly fuzzy. I said that the reasoning behind his stance can be applied to almost all TU merger. He is saying that Waterford is closer to a University than Carlow. He could say the same for the CIT/Tralee merger or the GMIT/Sligo/LKIT merger but yet puts his focus solely on the WIT/ITC merger.

    It's obvious he has some link to WIT and/or some sort of agenda.


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    #135
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,787 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    imacman wrote: »
    https://universitydiary.wordpress.co...al-university/
    Fixed link
    https://universitydiary.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/waterford-and-carlow-and-the-strange-tale-of-a-proposed-technical-university/


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    #136
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    JaCrispy wrote: »
    You are not reading my posts properly fuzzy. I said that the reasoning behind his stance can be applied to almost all TU merger. He is saying that Waterford is closer to a University than Carlow. He could say the same for the CIT/Tralee merger or the GMIT/Sligo/LKIT merger but yet puts his focus solely on the WIT/ITC merger.

    It's obvious he has some link to WIT and/or some sort of agenda.

    The only obvious thing here is that someone who actually is independent and has credentials is saying something you can't handle listening to, ergo your attempts to paint him as some sort of biased party. You have no evidence to support your claim. Perhaps the disparity between the other groups is not as wide as those between WIT and Carlow IT? That is one possibility. Or could it be that the WIT and Carlow merger is the only one that is a shotgun wedding? Which incidentally Carlow is desperate to proceed with! Why? Because Carlow has no other options! Waterford had but it was blocked by local politicians in Carlow/KK and Wexford. The elephant in the room for Carlow is that there is nothing to stop them looking for another suitor such as Athlone IT! The reason they don't is that if they are rejected by another IT the poor hand they are playing with will be exposed.


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    #137
    Nokia6230i
    Registered Users Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Nokia6230i


    The Sports Campus Plan submitted by the IT (Carlow) for Mortarstown is surely a nod towards another heave, push for TU Status?


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    #138
    JaCrispy
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JaCrispy


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    The only obvious thing here is that someone who actually is independent and has credentials is saying something you can't handle listening to, ergo your attempts to paint him as some sort of biased party. You have no evidence to support your claim. Perhaps the disparity between the other groups is not as wide as those between WIT and Carlow IT? That is one possibility. Or could it be that the WIT and Carlow merger is the only one that is a shotgun wedding? Which incidentally Carlow is desperate to proceed with! Why? Because Carlow has no other options! Waterford had but it was blocked by local politicians in Carlow/KK and Wexford. The elephant in the room for Carlow is that there is nothing to stop them looking for another suitor such as Athlone IT! The reason they don't is that if they are rejected by another IT the poor hand they are playing with will be exposed.

    So the disparity between Tralee and CIT isn't as wide as ITC and WIT....please.

    Where do you see that Carlow is so "desperate to proceed" with the merger. The merger is being forced by their employers, who at the end of the day rightly have the final say on what happens.

    Athlone is too far away geographically. But again if you provide support to back up your claim that Carlow don't proposition Athlone for fear of rejection.....then please do so. I won't be holding my breath though. You've talked some load of rubbish here and on the WIT thread.


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    #139
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    JaCrispy wrote: »
    So the disparity between Tralee and CIT isn't as wide as ITC and WIT....please.

    You made the initial claim. Back it up or do you just expect others to do that?
    JaCrispy wrote: »
    Where do you see that Carlow is so "desperate to proceed" with the merger. The merger is being forced by their employers, who at the end of the day rightly have the final say on what happens.

    It's obvious and I did post an article from the Kilkenny advertiser on the other thread. Carlow could make other arrangements if they had options. Its obviousl they don't. And its why you have to make up stuff!
    JaCrispy wrote: »
    Athlone is too far away geographically. But again if you provide support to back up your claim that Carlow don't proposition Athlone for fear of rejection.....then please do so. I won't be holding my breath though. You've talked some load of rubbish here and on the WIT thread.

    As I told you before when you were exposed as lying on the other thread I have backed up my arguement with sources with evidence from Forbes, Prime time and various other publications. And why is Carlow too far geographically? Its an exta 16 miles according to Google! And in Carlow's hinterland according to some of the spoofers out there. It is also almost the same distance that Cork and Tralee are from each other:D

    You have been shown on the other thread why this nonsense about the merger being at the behest of their employers i.e. the HEA is just that, nonsense and you are still regurgitatig it.Prime time dedicated a program segment to it which was posted on the other thread when you were posting as Peter Falk. The initial merger was supposed to be with Cork which was blocked by Phil Hogan and Brendan Howlin. If I am talking rubbish so is prime time and the independent commentators which you so often claim to be biased despite having no evidence.

    Here is an inconvenient truth for you. WIT wants nothing to do with Carlow and had another option. If Carlow is as confident as they are pretending to be then it would be able to find a more harmonious suitor but it can't. Only an idiot would chose to work with someone who hates them in preference to someone who they have a good working relationship with. Why does this logic fail you just because it is an institution?


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    #140
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,405 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Nokia6230i wrote: »
    The Sports Campus Plan submitted by the IT (Carlow) for Mortarstown is surely a nod towards another heave, push for TU Status?

    What's this? Seems to be a big push on the Sports Science area now on the IT.


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    #141
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    road_high wrote: »
    What's this? Seems to be a big push on the Sports Science area now on the IT.

    Carlow seems to have money to burn for facilities at the moment.If they merge with Waterford that cash will be a big help to pay off the massive deficit WIT has. Be careful what you wish for Carlowit


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    #142
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,405 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    imacman wrote: »
    Carlow seems to have money to burn for facilities at the moment.If they merge with Waterford that cash will be a big help to pay off the massive deficit WIT has. Be careful what you wish for Carlowit

    Merely playing catch up with other facilities i'd reckon and given the population explosion in its hinterland, no doubt warranted.


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    #143
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    road_high wrote: »
    Merely playing catch up with other facilities i'd reckon and given the population explosion in its hinterland, no doubt warranted.

    Absolutely and fair play to Carlow , What I'm saying is if the merger goes ahead all of that money that Carlow has built up will go into the pot with the Waterford and WIT has massive debts so some of that cash will have to go into playing that off.Seeing that the government has said there will be no extra funding for the technological university sector why would Carlow risk its good financial position for this very risky merger.


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    #144
    screamer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,140 ✭✭✭screamer


    They've been talking about this for 20 years..... it'll NEVER happen. Wit thinks it's amazing ( I went there it isnt ) and I think would rather wait it out another 20 years and go it alone for university status. Meanwhile what a pity that there is no university in this part of the country all bickering and bravado aside it does the region no favours.


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    #145
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    Some really common sense commentary from the TUI on the technological university debate
    http://www.tui.ie/news-events/technological-universities-bill-must-be-amended-to-protect-sector-.7924.html


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    #146
    RYGCat
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭RYGCat


    imacman wrote: »
    Some really common sense commentary from the TUI on the technological university debate
    http://www.tui.ie/news-events/technological-universities-bill-must-be-amended-to-protect-sector-.7924.html

    Why have you opined on two threads with the same post? Not better off sticking to the other?


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    #147
    oscillating wildely
    Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭oscillating wildely


    The Governing Body of WIT met this morning and have decided to re-engage the process so Stage 2 will now commence.


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    #148
    Morf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭Morf


    oscillating wildely wrote: »
    The Governing Body of WIT met this morning and have decided to re-engage the process so Stage 2 will now commence.

    Decided?

    Did they have any persuasive arguments from money men perchance?


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    #149
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    oscillating wildely wrote: »
    The Governing Body of WIT met this morning and have decided to re-engage the process so Stage 2 will now commence.
    As I have stated this on another thread, the statement release by WIT governing body has a very important line


    The WIT Governing Body believes that future engagement between both institutes must be in the context of the delivery of a university. It will commit to a merger application only if it is confident that delivery of an appropriately resourced Technological University for the South East would be the outcome    .

    In the light of the revelations in the media from the TUI like in the Times Today

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/creating-technological-universities-to-cost-students-says-union-1.2511551

    Official in the Teachers’ Union of Ireland (TUI) have claimed that these additional costs will fall mainly on students, who will face higher fees and charges for “many years into their working lives”.
    Susan Flannery, a TUI representative, said Minister for Education Jan O’Sullivan had been advised by her own experts that mergers were a costly process and that institutes of technology would have to bear the bulk of the fees.
    She noted comments made by chief executive of the Higher Education Authority (HEA) at a recent Dáil committee, in which he said he expected institutions would raise funds through revenue-generating measures or other costs.

    The TU Emperor has no clothes , WIT is in massive financial difficulties and on the one hand has been told by the HEA that they need sort this out in the next 3 years and on the other is being asked to pour money into this forced merger at the cost of the students and the day to day operations of the institute. And nobody in ITCarlow should be happy about this , Im sure the HEA has an eye on the nice surplus Carlow has which it could see as an easy way to pay of WITs debts at no cost to the HEA. Wake up people the TU is a smokescreen for rationalization and cost saving in the IOT sector


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    #150
    Agent Coulson
    Registered Users Posts: 60,546 ✭✭✭✭Agent Coulson


    I see on KCLR that Carlow and Waterford have resolved their issues and a Technological University could be signed in legislation by the end of the year.


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    #151
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    If resolved means no interaction between the staff of the institutes outside the presidents and no actual evidence on the ground of any merger activity and no updates for staff on the situation then it will definitely go ahead.


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