1000 year old cure for MRSA

Just think a possible solution for one of the biggest killers in hospitals these days and big pharma won't make a penny out of it!

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-32117815
A 1,000-year-old treatment for eye infections could hold the key to killing antibiotic-resistant superbugs, experts have said.
Scientists recreated a 9th Century Anglo-Saxon remedy using onion, garlic and part of a cow's stomach.
They were "astonished" to find it almost completely wiped out staphylococcus aureus, otherwise known as MRSA.
Their findings will be presented at a national microbiology conference.
The remedy was found in Bald's Leechbook - an old English manuscript containing instructions on various treatments held in the British Library.
Anglo-Saxon expert Dr Christina Lee, from the University of Nottingham, translated the recipe for an "eye salve", which includes garlic, onion or leeks, wine and cow bile.
Experts from the university's microbiology team recreated the remedy and then tested it on large cultures of MRSA.

The Moldy Gowl

...well until that gowl mrsa adapts to it?

Gowlasauras Rex

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

...well until that gowl mrsa adapts to it?

then we'll just find a 2000 year old cure. :pac:

Kovu

That would stink to the high heavens. Cattle bile smells like a fermented egg that's been left to ripen for a week in a greenhouse.

I wonder if the "cure" actually worked on eyes, onions normally make your eyes water!

Bald's eye salve

Equal amounts of garlic and another allium (onion or leek), finely chopped and crushed in a mortar for two minutes.

Add 25ml (0.87 fl oz) of English wine - taken from a historic vineyard near Glastonbury.

Dissolve bovine salts in distilled water, add and then keep chilled for nine days at 4C.

123balltv

Nothing new have always used Garlic and onions when ill
cant afford 60 euro for hello, here's antibiotics bye

Rothko

"big pharma"

Ugh

Turtwig

The remedy is made from ingredients i.e. chemicals. To gather the resources to assemble and mass produce the product would take a quite large scale operation. Big Pharma will make money out of it. (If it actually works - or if they market it successfully.) Unless there's no money to be made from it, then nobody is going to bother producing it because it's not a cost effect solution, never mind the most cost effective solution.

Kevin McCloud

We will be shitting gold next.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Concentrated acid will kill mrsa too. Doesn't mean I'd be giving it to people. Cures in lab cultures are a million miles away from viable, clinically relevant treatments.

Kevin McCloud

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

We will be shitting gold next.

We do just need to do a lot of panning to find it.

donegaLroad

We are catching up with ancient knowledge. The spider's web for example, was commonly used to dress wounds in ancient times, as there was a percentage of penicillin contained in the silk which would protect the wound from fungal and bacterial attack.

diddley

Sounds very interesting but as you said, if big pharma won't make a penny from it, won't they find some way to hush it up/rubbish it/make cows stomach linings sacred??? Why is St. Johns Wort banned in Ireland??

steddyeddy

Garlic is a member of the onion genus and the onion genus often produces antibiotic compounds. This might work but I think we need more ingenuity when it comes to antibacterial compounds. Over prescribing is the real cause of antibiotic resistance and clinicians need to tackle that to prevent more strains like MRSA developing.

househero

diddley wrote: »

Sounds very interesting but as you said, if big pharma won't make a penny from it, won't they find some way to hush it up/rubbish it/make cows stomach linings sacred??? Why is St. Johns Wort banned in Ireland??

St Js causes anxiety and has been linked to suicide. Although if Irish authorities were really concerned about suicide, alcahol would be banned.

Pharma drugs are compounds of beneficial ingredients isolated to increase effectiveness and reduce unwanted side effects... for example tree bark and aspirin (look it up)

Your not going to eat an onion garlic and cow guts to get better, unless you are a retarded hippy.

househero

househero wrote: »

Your not going to eat an onion garlic and cow guts to get better, unless you are a retarded hippy.

I think that it is intended for external use, as in on the infected area.

MRSA is reasonably easily treated these days to be honest.

hardCopy

I can't imagine the hospital kitchen boiling barrels of cow bile.

Some pharma company will identify and isolate the active ingredients, make a sterile ointment from it and package it in convenient tubes.

The point that I was making about "big pharma" is the fact that they will not be able to patent the end product and charge the health services millions for it!

zl1whqvjs75cdy

diddley wrote: »

Sounds very interesting but as you said, if big pharma won't make a penny from it, won't they find some way to hush it up/rubbish it/make cows stomach linings sacred??? Why is St. Johns Wort banned in Ireland??

Because it has several adverse side effects when taken in conjunction with many commonly prescribed drugs. Joe soap can't be trusted to listen to this advice though so its banned for his own protection.

Lots of old cures have some sort of scientific basis behind them.

I have heard of wild garlic having been used on castrated animals, tied around the wound. My Granny's generation used to put honey on wounds ... turns out it has anti-biotic properties.

There's a certain egotism in our commonly-held belief that this stuff has never occurred to the billions of humans who were here before us.

anncoates

Suas11 wrote: »

"big pharma"

Ugh

It's the internet age version of those newspaper cartoons of WC Fields-lookalike fat cats lighting cigars with 100 dollar bills over silver dinner plate covers.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

The point that I was making about "big pharma" is the fact that they will not be able to patent the end product and charge the health services millions for it!

well if they cant make money from it they wont produce it.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Half the problem (or maybe more than half) is the strict regulation of the FDA and other regulatory bodies. Whether they are too strict or not is a matter for another thread, but the level of data and detail a pharma company has to provide to these bodies is astronomical and costs an awful lot of money to generate. Take the example from the OP. This slave kills MRSA in a lab setting, great. The FDA now want to know, among many, many other things;

1. The exact active ingredient,
2. The exact mode of action of that ingredient,
3. How that ingredient travels through the body
4. Metabolites of that ingredient and their potential effects
5. How the active ingredient and all its metabolites are excreted
6. Side effects of the active ingredient
7. What happens if the ingredient is taken with other drugs

etc, etc

All of this needs to happen before it goes near any people. The pharma companies then have to pay for clinical trials and hope to god nobody has any adverse reaction to their new drug or else it all goes down the drain. So its all well and good saying honey is an antibiotic or this old slave will kill MRSA, but its all pretty much useless in modern drug development.

pablohoney87

Deleted User wrote: »

The point that I was making about "big pharma" is the fact that they will not be able to patent the end product and charge the health services millions for it!

The can however patent a process for mass production if it is seen as a unique and new method.

ohnonotgmail

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Half the problem (or maybe more than half) is the strict regulation of the FDA and other regulatory bodies. Whether they are too strict or not is a matter for another thread, but the level of data and detail a pharma company has to provide to these bodies is astronomical and costs an awful lot of money to generate. Take the example from the OP. This slave kills MRSA in a lab setting, great. The FDA now want to know, among many, many other things;

1. The exact active ingredient,
2. The exact mode of action of that ingredient,
3. How that ingredient travels through the body
4. Metabolites of that ingredient and their potential effects
5. How the active ingredient and all its metabolites are excreted
6. Side effects of the active ingredient
7. What happens if the ingredient is taken with other drugs

etc, etc

All of this needs to happen before it goes near any people. The pharma companies then have to pay for clinical trials and hope to god nobody has any adverse reaction to their new drug or else it all goes down the drain. So its all well and good saying honey is an antibiotic or this old slave will kill MRSA, but its all pretty much useless in modern drug development.

you're trying to let facts and reality get in the way of a "big pharma" rant. for shame.

seamus

Deleted User wrote: »

The point that I was making about "big pharma" is the fact that they will not be able to patent the end product and charge the health services millions for it!

Sure they will. They'll just change the ingredients a little. Doesn't have to be wine from a specific vineyard. Doesn't have to be bovine salts.

Bingo, same cure, different compounds == patent.

Akrasia

Deleted User wrote: »

The point that I was making about "big pharma" is the fact that they will not be able to patent the end product and charge the health services millions for it!

I dunno about that. The first pharmaceutical company (or university) to isolate the active ingredients and conduct successfull clinical trials will still be able to patent their product and process for producing it.

evolving_doors

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Lots of old cures have some sort of scientific basis behind them.

I have heard of wild garlic having been used on castrated animals, tied around the wound. My Granny's generation used to put honey on wounds ... turns out it has anti-biotic properties.

There's a certain egotism in our commonly-held belief that this stuff has never occurred to the billions of humans who were here before us.

Hmm yes your granny putting honey around a castrated bullock's wound... thanks for the image.

sbsquarepants

Kovu wrote: »

That would stink to the high heavens. Cattle bile smells like a fermented egg that's been left to ripen for a week in a greenhouse.

I don't imagine MRSA smells too great either. Bile me up - fúck the stink:)

Adamcp898

Akrasia wrote: »

I dunno about that. The first pharmaceutical company (or university) to isolate the active ingredients and conduct successfull clinical trials will still be able to patent their product and process for producing it.

But the problem lies in that they won't be able to stop others from doing the same, which they will, and long before the patent runs out meaning they're risking not making the money back which they spent creating their own method going after it in the first place.

Plus its much harder to prove and then more importantly protect the "novelty" and "unexpectedness" of a production method as opposed to a product.

Whereas if the product itself was patentable then they'd be able to block other processes developed by others for its production.

renegademaster

househero wrote: »

St Js causes anxiety and has been linked to suicide. Although if Irish authorities were really concerned about suicide, alcahol would be banned.

Your not going to eat an onion garlic and cow guts to get better, unless you are a retarded hippy.

The Irish "authorities" need to read up on the possible side effects of taking prescribed anti-depressants

Retarded hippy wtf?

ohnonotgmail

renegademaster wrote: »

The Irish "authorities" need to read up on the possible side effects of taking prescribed anti-depressants

Retarded hippy wtf?

but at least these anti-depressants would be taken under the supervision of a doctor. Not sold over the counter of a "health" shop or bough online.

dr.fuzzenstein

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well if they cant make money from it they wont produce it.

Which is exactly the point.
My wife worked for 10 years in a pharmaceutical. There where meetings upon meetings on production, output, streamlining, increasing productivity, profitability and everything else you can think of.
What was the one thing no pharmaceutical has ever had a single meeting about?
The end user.
If something does something and can be sold for a profit and enough of the pill-dumpsters (sorry, patients) survive, it's go. If that something is medicine number 56462782734564 for staying slim, it doesn't matter.
If there was a €5 cure for AIDS, it would either be ignored or bought up and buried in the deepest vault on Earth.
That's fine if you're an investment banker, we're used to them being vermin, but when you're producing life saving medicine for people, a little bit of altruism should intrude into your value system.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but at least these anti-depressants would be taken under the supervision of a doctor. Not sold over the counter of a "health" shop or bough online.

Point in case is the outlawing of herbal remedies that have worked for thousands of years and are harmless over pharmaceutical, chemical remedies that we KNOW kill thousands of people with side effects and I include anti-depressants that will drive you to suicide. Oh yes, that is MUCH better than St John's Wort. And of course now the doctor gets his €60 and pharma get their cut on the pills.
We in ireland have fallon over ourselves to just use patients as pill-dumpsters over natural remedies and counseling. it's a case of "I don't wanna hear it, here's some pills" We're supposed to worship the men in white coats as Gods and never question what they give us.

ohnonotgmail

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Which is exactly the point.
My wife worked for 10 years in a pharmaceutical. There where meetings upon meetings on production, output, streamlining, increasing productivity, profitability and everything else you can think of.
What was the one thing no pharmaceutical has ever had a single meeting about?
The end user.
If something does something and can be sold for a profit and enough of the pill-dumpsters (sorry, patients) survive, it's go. If that something is medicine number 56462782734564 for staying slim, it doesn't matter.
If there was a €5 cure for AIDS, it would either be ignored or bought up and buried in the deepest vault on Earth.
That's fine if you're an investment banker, we're used to them being vermin, but when you're producing life saving medicine for people, a little bit of altruism should intrude into your value system.



Point in case is the outlawing of herbal remedies that have worked for thousands of years and are harmless over pharmaceutical, chemical remedies that we KNOW kill thousands of people with side effects and I include anti-depressants that will drive you to suicide. Oh yes, that is MUCH better than St John's Wort. And of course now the doctor gets his €60 and pharma get their cut on the pills.
We in ireland have fallon over ourselves to just use patients as pill-dumpsters over natural remedies and counseling. it's a case of "I don't wanna hear it, here's some pills" We're supposed to worship the men in white coats as Gods and never question what they give us.

If that is how your doctor treats you then find another doctor.

Herbal, natural <> safe. What about the side-affects of St Johns Wort? Who decides what dose to take or for how long? Who monitors the side-affects? who makes the diagnosis that St Johns Wort would be effective? Who determines that there are no interactions that with other drugs you may be taking?

Taking St. John’s wort extracts improves mood, and decreases anxiety and insomnia related to depression. It seems to be about as effective in treating depression as many prescription drugs. In fact, clinical guidelines from the American College of Physicians-American Society of Internal Medicine suggest that St. John’s wort can be considered an option along with antidepressant medications for short-term treatment of mild depression. However, since St. John’s wort does not appear to be more effective or significantly better tolerated than antidepressant medications, and since St. John’s wort causes many drug interactions, the guidelines suggest it might not be an appropriate choice for many people, particularly those who take other medications. St. John’s wort might not be as effective for more severe cases of depression.

So no better than any other medication for mild depression.

Big list of side-effects, contra-indications and interactions. http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-329-st%20john%27s%20wort.aspx?activeingredientid=329&activeingredientname=st%20john%27s%20wort

dr.fuzzenstein

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If that is how your doctor treats you then find another doctor.

Herbal, natural <> safe. What about the side-affects of St Johns Wort? Who decides what dose to take or for how long? Who monitors the side-affects? who makes the diagnosis that St Johns Wort would be effective? Who determines that there are no interactions that with other drugs you may be taking?

So no better than any other medication for mild depression.

Big list of side-effects, contra-indications and interactions. http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-329-st%20john%27s%20wort.aspx?activeingredientid=329&activeingredientname=st%20john%27s%20wort

Haven't taken it, was just listing it as an example. Most of what I take, I can't pronounce, my Chinese is lousy. I leave that up to my herbalist.
As for changing my doctor, I haven't been one in over 10 or even 15 years. never had the need.

As for all those wonderful and safe prescription drugs:
http://www.alternet.org/story/147318/100,000_americans_die_each_year_from_prescription_drugs,_while_pharma_companies_get_rich
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/05/07/death-by-prescription-drugs-is-a-growing-problem/
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/11/20/how-pharmaceuticals-came-to-be-the-4th-leading-cause-of-death-in-america/

No thanks, I can die without the help of prescription medicine.

ohnonotgmail

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Haven't taken it, was just listing it as an example. Most of what I take, I can't pronounce, my Chinese is lousy. I leave that up to my herbalist.
As for changing my doctor, I haven't been one in over 10 or even 15 years. never had the need.

As for all those wonderful and safe prescription drugs:
http://www.alternet.org/story/147318/100,000_americans_die_each_year_from_prescription_drugs,_while_pharma_companies_get_rich
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/05/07/death-by-prescription-drugs-is-a-growing-problem/
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/11/20/how-pharmaceuticals-came-to-be-the-4th-leading-cause-of-death-in-america/

No thanks, I can die without the help of prescription medicine.

so you havent been to a doctor in 10-15 years but seem to be an expert on how they work. brilliant.

So you take drugs ( and they are drugs, forget the herbal bit ) but you dont know what they are? You dont even know what they are called. based on recommendations from a herbalist. What qualifications does this herbalist have? I bet you dont know. What blind studies have been done to confirm the efficacy of what you are taking? have there been any at all. Again, i bet you dont know. Your post reeks of ignorance.

and your links are irrelevant. There are risks with taking any medication. The benefits of prescription medication far outweigh the risks.

jimgoose

It seems to me the sooner all these blasted Chemicals are outlawed the better. We'll have to evolve into ethereal pan-galactic beings consisting of pure intellect first, what with there being no longer any such thing as Matter, but at least that means there'll be no more politicians.

More seriously, a hell of a lot of modern pharmaceuticals have their origin in naturally-occurring, often plant-derived, substances. The Big Pharma trick is usually mainly to do with pure synthesis of the active substances and packaging.

ohnonotgmail

jimgoose wrote: »

It seems to me the sooner all these blasted Chemicals are outlawed the better. We'll have to evolve into ethereal pan-galactic beings consisting of pure intellect first, what with there being no longer any such thing as Matter, but at least that means there'll be no more politicians.

More seriously, a hell of a lot of modern pharmaceuticals have their origin in naturally-occurring, often plant-derived, substances. The Big Pharma trick is usually mainly to do with pure synthesis of the active substances and packaging.

Its not a trick. It is hard, expensive work.well first of all you have find the active substance. The you isolate it. Then you figure out how to synthetise it. then you have to perform double-blind trials that conform to regulations. All of which is very expensive.

jimgoose

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Its not a trick. It is hard, expensive work.well first of all you have find the active substance. The you isolate it. Then you figure out how to synthetise it. then you have to perform double-blind trials that conform to regulations. All of which is very expensive.

Yes, I know that. Most tricks worth doing are hard and expensive.

ohnonotgmail

jimgoose wrote: »

Yes, I know that. Most tricks worth doing are hard and expensive.

Indeed. Just clarifying for the sake of others.

dr.fuzzenstein

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so you havent been to a doctor in 10-15 years but seem to be an expert on how they work. brilliant.

So you take drugs ( and they are drugs, forget the herbal bit ) but you dont know what they are? You dont even know what they are called. based on recommendations from a herbalist. What qualifications does this herbalist have? I bet you dont know. What blind studies have been done to confirm the efficacy of what you are taking? have there been any at all. Again, i bet you dont know. Your post reeks of ignorance.

and your links are irrelevant. There are risks with taking any medication. The benefits of prescription medication far outweigh the risks.

I have seen how they work. They are brilliant when you need patching up. Bypass, broken bones, in fact any major surgery, absolutely brilliant.
Pain medication, antibiotics, sure thing, I've had both. Brilliant when needed.
But the problem is, going to the doctor for every ache and pain, sneeze, feeling under the weather, things you don't really need to see the doc for, or even if do you err on the side of caution, you would rather leave with a prescription. Doc and pharma industry happy to oblige.
A lot of chronic conditions that western medicine only has steroids, cortisone and pain medication for to, at best, manage symptoms whilst ignoring the underlying condition and of course the classic anti-depressent. We Irish gobble those things down like gummi bears.
It should be councelling (IMO exercise, eat well and maybe do something for others before thinking of yourself) first, before "yeah, yeah, here's a pill" and that has been well documented.
As for qualifications, acupuncture foundation of Ireland, TCM with a special course in herbalism, in conjunction with the university of Nanjing including working in a hospital over there.
It's funny how in that hemisphere both disciplines can work side by side, but in the West, which is in pharma's pocket, the mere mention of complimentary medicine causes flecks of foam to appear on most of the proponents of "Western and nothing else!".
Note, I said complimentary, not alternative. There are some good and well-qualified practitioners out there.
As for tests? They have been ongoing for 3000 years. It is by now known what will treat and and what will kill you.

The_Captain

it almost completely wiped out staphylococcus aureus, otherwise known as MRSA.

Oh dear.


Staphlococcus Aureus is easily treatable and simple to kill. We used to grow cultures of it in college all the time. You can literally kill off an entire infection with any antibiotic

Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus is a different story, and is extremely difficult to treat. It usually requires a combination of surgery and a range of antibiotics taken together

ohnonotgmail

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I have seen how they work. They are brilliant when you need patching up. Bypass, broken bones, in fact any major surgery, absolutely brilliant.
Pain medication, antibiotics, sure thing, I've had both. Brilliant when needed.
But the problem is, going to the doctor for every ache and pain, sneeze, feeling under the weather, things you don't really need to see the doc for, or even if do you err on the side of caution, you would rather leave with a prescription. Doc and pharma industry happy to oblige.

Again, you are going to the wrong doctor. Or you have traveled back in time 20 years. That attitude is changing.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

A lot of chronic conditions that western medicine only has steroids, cortisone and pain medication for to, at best, manage symptoms whilst ignoring the underlying condition and of course the classic anti-depressent. We Irish gobble those things down like gummi bears.

You mean anti-depressants like St Johns Wort? that is what the thread is about.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It should be councelling (IMO exercise, eat well and maybe do something for others before thinking of yourself) first, before "yeah, yeah, here's a pill" and that has been well documented.

Agreed. But not everything can be solved with a diet change and exercise.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

As for qualifications, acupuncture foundation of Ireland, TCM with a special course in herbalism, in conjunction with the university of Nanjing including working in a hospital over there.
It's funny how in that hemisphere both disciplines can work side by side, but in the West, which is in pharma's pocket, the mere mention of complimentary medicine causes flecks of foam to appear on most of the proponents of "Western and nothing else!".
Note, I said complimentary, not alternative. There are some good and well-qualified practitioners out there.
As for tests? They have been ongoing for 3000 years. It is by now known what will treat and and what will kill you.

Flecks of foam? I think you've just described yourself. and you didnt say if you knew what you are actually taking. i presume you dont.

dr.fuzzenstein

I could get you a list, but whatever I take is none of yours.
What I do know is that what I take is natural, tested for thousands of years and prescribed by someone whom I trust and is qualified.
You're willing to discount and entire medical system, but I'm not. Either one.

ohnonotgmail

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I could get you a list, but whatever I take is none of yours.
What I do know is that what I take is natural, tested for thousands of years and prescribed by someone whom I trust and is qualified.
You're willing to discount and entire medical system, but I'm not. Either one.

I never asked what you take. Nor do i care. i asked if you knew. which you evidently dont.

dr.fuzzenstein

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I never asked what you take. Nor do i care. i asked if you knew. which you evidently dont.

So, you're willing to reject an entire medical system out of hand. I don't, neither one.
I can find out exactly what I'm taking, every single ingredient. I would recognise every one of them. Would a western doctor do that? Do you have an exact list of what goes into what you're taking? Would you even know what half of it is?

Tordelback

I sincerely wish those who believe 'traditional remedies are best' could be given a chance to live even 100 years ago, never mind 1,000. See how that goes for them. I'd give good money that they'd be pleading for 'big pharma' to come save them within the year, regardless of how much garlic and honey they smeared themselves with.

ohnonotgmail

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So, you're willing to reject an entire medical system out of hand. I don't, neither one.

If what they are giving you works so well then put it through a proper double-blind trial. preferably multiple trials.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I can find out exactly what I'm taking, every single ingredient. I would recognise every one of them. Would a western doctor do that? Do you have an exact list of what goes into what you're taking? Would you even know what half of it is?

i do have an exact list of everything i am taking. there is a leaflet in every packet specifying what is included which also lists side-effects. So i do know what i'm taking. which is more than you can say. how do you know they are not giving you placebos?

dr.fuzzenstein

Tordelback wrote: »

I sincerely wish those who believe 'traditional remedies are best' could be given a chance to live even 100 years ago, never mind 1,000. See how that goes for them. I'd give good money that they'd be pleading for 'big pharma' to come save them within the year, regardless of how much garlic and honey they smeared themselves with.

It should be complimentary (as well as) and not alternative (instead of).
You've got something seriously wrong with you, get yourself to a doctor and a hospital. Western medicine is brilliant for the right things and i wouldn't want to do without it.
But there are a lot of people who will trudge to the doctor for every tiny sniffle they have, because to them western is god and nothing else counts.
Where do you think they got their ideas and ingredients from?
Especially the Irish worship at the altar of western medicine, you guys dump pills down your throat like it's going out of fashion. There is no need for at least half of it.
We scare people into thinking that all natural remedies are hokum (why are they used as the basis for medicine then?) and only a pharmaceutical remedy, prescribed by your doctor will cure you from the dreaded sniffles.
That's all I am going to say on the subject. I know what Ireland is like when it comes to authority figures (church, state, gardai, etc...) you blindly believe everything they tell you and that all they do is only with your best interest at heart. Nothing to do with exploiting people and taking them for everything they have.
You do whatever you think is right and I do likewise.
Have you ever considered that it doesn't HAVE to be one or the other?

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If what they are giving you works so well then put it through a proper double-blind trial. preferably multiple trials.

i do have an exact list of everything i am taking. there is a leaflet in every packet specifying what is included which also lists side-effects. So i do know what i'm taking. which is more than you can say. how do you know they are not giving you placebos?

Sorry, I don't have the time for those trials right now. :P
If you know exactly what you're taking, maybe you should look it up more closely.

ohnonotgmail

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

We scare people into thinking that all natural remedies are hokum (why are they used as the basis for medicine then?) .

If they are used as the basis of a medicine then they have been put through proper regulated trials. You use this word natural like it has some magical meaning. People have been taking willow bark for headaches for hundreds if not more years. Do they still use it now? No, they take an aspirin which is the same thing. As aspirin is as natural as willow bark. On a chemical level they are pretty much the same. But with aspirin you know exactly what is in and what dose to take. that is the difference between your "natural" remedies and medicine.
Nobody here has said that all natural remedies are hokum. But the ones that arent are now incorporated in regular medicine.