Vaccines question

gar32

So after reading all the very long Trend. Which has been close.

Here we go again.

I have a 2 year old & a 8 month old.

They are not vaccinated at all. I don't read anti vaccine website. Watch youtube videos.

I stick to governmental, WHO and vaccine manufacturing web sites.

I want to but I am looking a risks of both sides..

1st of all vaccines have a time limit on most of them 5 to 10 years.
Boosters ? Did you have them?
My children came in to the world without sicknesses.
A large percentage of people going around without booster protection.


2nd Autism may not be proven that there is a link but its happens at the same time as MMR.
New research points to problems in the Gut. Diet changes have help children with Autism.
I will get my children single Measles vaccine when I can.


3rd ​Aluminium poisoning.
The levels in vaccines are much higher then is considered safe in say hospital drips.
Research is great if its looking at the right things.

4th Side effects V risks. I know vaccines have gotten us to a much safer world but Polio. Does my child need it now?
Chances of it get out of the countries its trapped in? Fingers crossed its gone forever.


5th Lots of people say listen too a doctor. They know best.
I have asked my children doctors and he did not know about vaccines as much as I would like.

I want the best for my children but also the best for all children.
Vaccines are great but there is always room for improvement.

I will start a late vaccine plan for my kids when I feel they are old enough to have even less risk from vaccines.

Does anyone know where I would find info for late starting of vaccines ?

Thanks in advance.

Roesy

Thankfully most children are born without sickness. Vaccines help them stay that way. Surely, when they are younger they are more at risk of serious side effects from these preventable illnesses vaccines protect from!!

With regards autism, it's been around for a very, very long time. It just hasn't always had a name so I don't think it's fair to say it's around since MMR. I will say that there does seem to be more people being diagnosed with it though but from the reading I have done, I really don't think it's vaccine related!!

My children will be getting their boosters.

I don't know anyone who has delayed their vaccines intentionally for such a long length of time. I do know some who have had some of them administered individually though. I'd say the best advice for you is to try and find a gp or practice nurse who does know what you consider enough about vaccines as I definitely wouldn't be comfortable taking medical advice from someone with a non medical background on the Internet!

gar32

Thanks Roesy

I am not taking advice from the internet I am looking for the best option for my kids. All info gratefully received and education on this subject comes from many places. The internet being just one of them.

mulbot

Probably gonna be a thread where each side(pro,anti) will each want to be right- I'm not for vaccines at all,i do believe that the theory is good,but they cannot be 100% without side effects,because nobody can say how a body will react to multiple foreign viruses being (unnaturally) administered. I have 4 siblings,none of us were ever vaccinated and are perfectly normal,healthy etc and I in turn didn't vaccinate my child, i don't believe they are as necessary as they are made out to be-

mulbot

Roesy wrote: »

Thankfully most children are born without sickness. Vaccines help them stay that way. Surely, when they are younger they are more at risk of serious side effects from these preventable illnesses vaccines protect from!!

With regards autism, it's been around for a very, very long time. It just hasn't always had a name so I don't think it's fair to say it's around since MMR. I will say that there does seem to be more people being diagnosed with it though but from the reading I have done, I really don't think it's vaccine related!!

My children will be getting their boosters.

I don't know anyone who has delayed their vaccines intentionally for such a long length of time. I do know some who have had some of them administered individually though. I'd say the best advice for you is to try and find a gp or practice nurse who does know what you consider enough about vaccines as I definitely wouldn't be comfortable taking medical advice from someone with a non medical background on the Internet!

Could be open to correction by the OP but i don't think they meant that it's been around since the MMR,i think they meant that autism develops around the same time as MMR is administered

DM addict

I'm going to try and address your points directly.

gar32 wrote: »

1st of all vaccines have a time limit on most of them 5 to 10 years.
Boosters ? Did you have them?
My children came in to the world without sicknesses.
A large percentage of people going around without booster protection.

Some vaccines require re-exposure to the antigen in order to maintain immunity through adulthood. I am not an immunologist, or a doctor, so can't give you precise information as to the whys and wherefores. I can tell you that organisations like WHO and CDC are researching these topics, and update schedules accordingly.

Your children did come into the world without sickness, but they were protected while in your womb, but sadly there are diseases in the world. That's what vaccines are for.

Adults are recommended to get tetanus and diptheria boosters, although you're possibly right that people are walking around not properly immunized.

gar32 wrote: »

2nd Autism may not be proven that there is a link but its happens at the same time as MMR.
New research points to problems in the Gut. Diet changes have help children with Autism.
I will get my children single Measles vaccine when I can.

You're right that autism often starts to manifest around 18-24 months. However, there is evidence from Japan. They had to withdraw the MMR vaccine due to problems in production. They now use single vaccines. This has not affected the rate of autism. http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/vaccines/nommr.html

There is potentially a link between gut problems and autism (although the evidence is still tentative), but this does not in any way link back to the MMR or vaccines in general.

gar32 wrote: »

3rd ​Aluminium poisoning.
The levels in vaccines are much higher then is considered safe in say hospital drips.
Research is great if its looking at the right things.

Yes, aluminium can be poisonous. BUT so can many things that are in our body - even water. Again, I'm not an immunologist or a doctor - but IV drips and vaccines are different things, so will have different safety levels for different substances. Same way there will be a different level permitted in food to in medicines.

gar32 wrote: »

4th Side effects V risks. I know vaccines have gotten us to a much safer world but Polio. Does my child need it now?
Chances of it get out of the countries its trapped in? Fingers crossed its gone forever.

You're right, we've done a great job reducing polio in developed countries. BUT we're not there yet. Diseases do not respect borders and boundaries - we've seen this with Ebola recently. When polio is gone, we'll stop vaccinating - just like we have with smallpox.

gar32 wrote: »

5th Lots of people say listen too a doctor. They know best.
I have asked my children doctors and he did not know about vaccines as much as I would like.

I'm sorry your doctor wasn't as informed as you'd want - it's frustrating when you feel as though you know more than a doctor does. What I would recommend is asking your doctor to research it - tell them your concerns, tell them you want to do the best thing for your children but that you're not convinced. Ask them to do some research and get back to you.

If you're not satisfied, then you can try another doctor - but depending on what exactly you want to know, you could be going around the houses for a while looking for someone. What is it that you want to know that they didn't?

Hope that helps a little.

Roesy

mulbot wrote: »

Could be open to correction by the OP but i don't think they meant that it's been around since the MMR,i think they meant that autism develops around the same time as MMR is administered

True, and that's what it reads like to me this morning. Thanks. Sorry OP! That's what I get for replying at silly o'clock.

Rosy Posy

We choose not to vaccinate our children, which tbh is something that I tend to keep to myself online at least as there is a lot of vitriol out there. Our kids go to Waldorf school and I would say that more kids are not immunised than are. A good resource is A Guide to Child Health by Michaela Glockler. My oh is a GP and one of the reasons that we've declined immunisations is the apparently arbitrary way that the mandatory vaccination schedule is decided. It seems to us like a large consideration is the lucrative agreements between governments and pharmaceutical companies. When it comes down to it I just don't trust the powers that be to make the choice that's in the best interests of my family over their own pockets.

I do get that people get worked up because my choice to decline immunisation supposedly lets down the herd immunity, but if you have faith in the vaccines then it shouldn't matter and if you don't then why are you getting them?

Also if my kids are sick I take the responsibility of keeping them at home away from the very young, old or pregnant.

Ocean Blue

Rosy Posy wrote: »

I do get that people get worked up because my choice to decline immunisation supposedly lets down the herd immunity, but if you have faith in the vaccines then it shouldn't matter and if you don't then why are you getting them?

Even if a person believes in vaccines, I don't think anyone who has ever done any research believes they are 100% effective. No drug company have ever claimed that. It's a belief that the vaccine in combination with herd immunity gives sufficient cover in the community to minimise the chance of the disease spreading. So your argument above is poorly thought out IMO.

Sligo1

Ocean Blue wrote: »

Even if a person believes in vaccines, I don't think anyone who has ever done any research believes they are 100% effective. No drug company have ever claimed that. It's a belief that the vaccine in combination with herd immunity gives sufficient cover in the community to minimise the chance of the disease spreading. So your argument above is poorly thought out IMO.

+1. Also rosy posy, I appreciate the fact you say you keep your kids inside when sick and all. But you can't really predict this all the time. For example... With measles the rash only shows perhaps 3 days after some symptoms arise. You may have had your child out in the community before you actually realise they are sick with a Contagious illness. Chick pox is not vaccinated for as standard but I could use this as another example. It is contagious long before the spots come out. So again you might not realise and may have infected numerous little babies or vulnerable people during that time.

Rosy Posy

Rosy Posy wrote: »

We choose not to vaccinate our children, which tbh is something that I tend to keep to myself online at least as there is a lot of vitriol out there. Our kids go to Waldorf school and I would say that more kids are not immunised than are. A good resource is A Guide to Child Health by Michaela Glockler. My oh is a GP and one of the reasons that we've declined immunisations is the apparently arbitrary way that the mandatory vaccination schedule is decided. It seems to us like a large consideration is the lucrative agreements between governments and pharmaceutical companies. When it comes down to it I just don't trust the powers that be to make the choice that's in the best interests of my family over their own pockets.

I do get that people get worked up because my choice to decline immunisation supposedly lets down the herd immunity, but if you have faith in the vaccines then it shouldn't matter and if you don't then why are you getting them?

Also if my kids are sick I take the responsibility of keeping them at home away from the very young, old or pregnant.

Not vaccinating and depending on herd immunity is one thing, not vaccinating and sending your children to a place where most of the others aren't vaccinated is just dangerous.

If your kids are sick do you also take responsibility if they spread the virus to others before symptoms present themselves?
http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/transmission.html

I didn't know anything about Steiner schools but that is enough to put me off them.
http://m.jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/204/suppl_1/S353.long#T2
Edited to include a couple of random articles after a quick bit of googling.

kandr10

I'm not going to weigh in on the pro or anti vax side. Just for the op, perhaps in terms of finding the right gp for your family you could compile a list of questions asking about your concerns. Take time to phrase the questions well. For example if you say to a doc, 'what about the aluminium levels ' you won't get such a detailed response as when you ask 'I'm concerned about aluminium levels in vaccines. Can you explain why they need to be this high as compared to hospital drips for example'.
It's important to know the differences and why the elements that cause concern have to be there and why it has to be administered in a particular way.

Sligo1

Or OP, could you perhaps find an immunologist that would be available to answer any questions or concerns you may have? A GP is a very generalised area of practice and the questions you have are very specific. If you can't make an appointment with an immunologist... Perhaps even find a good one you could possibly email your questions to?

Jerrica

Here is an excellent rebuttal of 20 of the most common objections to Vaccination, produced by the the Robert Koch-Institute and the Paul-Ehrlich-Institut, Germany

To address the concerns specifically outlined in the OP:

gar32 wrote:

1st of all vaccines have a time limit on most of them 5 to 10 years.
Boosters ? Did you have them?
My children came in to the world without sicknesses.
A large percentage of people going around without booster protection.

Not all vaccines require boosters, the MMR for example - once both doses have been administered at ~ 12mo and ~24 mo - confers life long immunity. Others, like diphtheria, tetanus, whooping cough do indeed need boosters. OP you said you read government websites so this is a very informative graphic of the recommended timelines for administration of vaccines for children of 0 - 18 years in the US as produced by the CDC:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/downloads/child/0-18yrs-schedule.pdf

gar32 wrote:

2nd Autism may not be proven that there is a link but its happens at the same time as MMR.
New research points to problems in the Gut. Diet changes have help children with Autism.
I will get my children single Measles vaccine when I can.

A study in Japan has shown that a move away from combined MMR vaccinations to single vaccinations has had no effect on the rates of autism.

gar32 wrote:

3rd ​Aluminium poisoning.
The levels in vaccines are much higher then is considered safe in say hospital drips.
Research is great if its looking at the right things.

Exposure to aluminium through vaccine administration is well below normal biological threshold and it does not therefore pose any harm to infants.

gar32 wrote:

4th Side effects V risks. I know vaccines have gotten us to a much safer world but Polio. Does my child need it now?
Chances of it get out of the countries its trapped in? Fingers crossed its gone forever.

The side effects of the polio vaccine specifically are almost unheard of. As with any vaccination there is an extremely small risk of severe allergy, but this is the same risk that we encounter when exposing our children to any well known allergen like eggs, shellfish or nuts. The benefit of polio vaccination (and other vaccinations) greatly outweighs the risk from exposure to disease through non-vaccination.

gar32 wrote:

5th Lots of people say listen too a doctor. They know best.
I have asked my children doctors and he did not know about vaccines as much as I would like.

Unfortunately doctors are fallible, they are people too, and it is true that some GPs are worryingly uninformed about vaccines. Doctors are educated through knowledge gained from research, so go to the knowledge source, the research, and find it for yourself. This piece from the American Academy of Paediatrics includes a Systematic Review of over forty studies which discuss the safety of vaccines.

gar32 wrote:

I will start a late vaccine plan for my kids when I feel they are old enough to have even less risk from vaccines.

Does anyone know where I would find info for late starting of vaccines ?

Delaying Vaccines Increases Risks—with No Added Benefits - this is an article from Scientific American which discusses delaying vaccination schedules and why it's not recommended, and a number of the study in the Review of studies on the safety of vaccinations that I linked to above also refer to this point.

Rosy Posy wrote:

I do get that people get worked up because my choice to decline immunisation supposedly lets down the herd immunity, but if you have faith in the vaccines then it shouldn't matter and if you don't then why are you getting them?

I understand that it's not pleasant to be at the receiving end of "vitriol" towards people who choose not to vaccinate, but as a mother I will fight tooth and nail for the safety of my child, as I'm sure you would too. By not vaccinating your child you are putting mine at risk, whereas I am protecting yours by vaccinating. Can you see the unfairness in that?

pwurple

Gar32, if you have access to the free online course website Coursera, most of your questions are addressed by the Vaccines course run by Dr Paul Offit.

It's an online course, and explains in detail how vaccines work.


I also recommend a visit to temple street hospital, to see some immuno-compromised children who cannot be vaccinated, who rely on the rest of us for their lives. Look into their eyes, and then think carefully about what you are doing to them.


Life expectancy in this modern world has jumped dramatically since the introduction of vaccines. Such a simple measure, it has saved millions of lives.


I am the complete opposite mindset to you. I've worked with vaccine programs in poorer countries, and I've seen how in a few years how villages where children and babies who were previously dying of entirely preventable diseases were now making it through their childhoods. The suffering vaccines have eliminated is just amazing. I never EVER want us to end up back in the time when preventable disease kills children. It's horrendous to see. Vaccines are one of the wonders of modern medicine, and we are so lucky to live in a time and place where they are available.

lazygal

Rosy Posy wrote: »

We choose not to vaccinate our children, which tbh is something that I tend to keep to myself online at least as there is a lot of vitriol out there. Our kids go to Waldorf school and I would say that more kids are not immunised than are. A good resource is A Guide to Child Health by Michaela Glockler. My oh is a GP and one of the reasons that we've declined immunisations is the apparently arbitrary way that the mandatory vaccination schedule is decided. It seems to us like a large consideration is the lucrative agreements between governments and pharmaceutical companies. When it comes down to it I just don't trust the powers that be to make the choice that's in the best interests of my family over their own pockets.

I do get that people get worked up because my choice to decline immunisation supposedly lets down the herd immunity, but if you have faith in the vaccines then it shouldn't matter and if you don't then why are you getting them?

Also if my kids are sick I take the responsibility of keeping them at home away from the very young, old or pregnant.

Please keep your children away from mine and my immuno compromised relatives. I don't trust parents like you to be in any way responsible for the health of others.


I firmly believe school enrollment and eligibility for ECCE should require a full confirmation that the child is up to date on all State recommended vaccines.

Rosy Posy

lazygal wrote: »

Please keep your children away from mine and my immuno compromised relatives. I don't trust parents like you to be in any way responsible for the health of others.


I firmly believe school enrollment and eligibility for ECCE should require a full confirmation that the child is up to date on all State recommended vaccines.

We live in rural New Zealand so I think you and yours are safe. If you choose to go to a school and ECCE that abides by those standards then you should be fine.

tinkerbell

Rosy Posy wrote: »

We choose not to vaccinate our children, which tbh is something that I tend to keep to myself online at least as there is a lot of vitriol out there. Our kids go to Waldorf school and I would say that more kids are not immunised than are. A good resource is A Guide to Child Health by Michaela Glockler. My oh is a GP and one of the reasons that we've declined immunisations is the apparently arbitrary way that the mandatory vaccination schedule is decided. It seems to us like a large consideration is the lucrative agreements between governments and pharmaceutical companies. When it comes down to it I just don't trust the powers that be to make the choice that's in the best interests of my family over their own pockets.

I do get that people get worked up because my choice to decline immunisation supposedly lets down the herd immunity, but if you have faith in the vaccines then it shouldn't matter and if you don't then why are you getting them?

Also if my kids are sick I take the responsibility of keeping them at home away from the very young, old or pregnant.

This sort of completely irresponsible selfish attitude really pisses me off. Unless you keep your kids indoors / away from the general population then you are putting tons of vulnerable people at risk.

Your kids could be sick without symptoms for days before you realise. In that time, they could come in contact with a newborn / young baby (who will not have been able to have had ANY vaccines yet), a pregnant woman, a vulnerable elderly person or any immuno-compromised person. And immuno-compromised does not just mean cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy. There are a huge number of autoimmune illnesses treated with immuno-suppressant drugs which means their immune system is pretty much switched off and even the likes of a common cold could make them seriously ill, nevermind come in contact with the likes of a disease which is preventable by vaccination. Why do you get to decide that their lives are put at deadly risk? You don't even mention the immuno-suppressed in your post which speaks volumes. Your decision not to vaccinate and then if your kid was carrying a disease like meningitis etc and to come into contact with an immuno-suppressed person could be a death sentence for that poor person.

By not vaccinating your children you are giving that vulnerable portion of society the middle finger. I suggest you educate yourself on herd immunity - it only works when people who can get them, get them. The herd is supposed to protect those who medically cannot get vaccines, not additionally people like you who couldn't be bothered. Measels was nearly eliminated - it's only on the rise now again because of people deciding to stop vaccinating.

So, by all means, don't vaccinate your kids. But if you choose not to vaccinate, then keep them the hell away from general society ALL THE TIME. And I'm horrified that a GP would be so careless.

pwurple

tinkerbell wrote: »

. And I'm horrified that a GP would be so careless.

You get crappy GP's everywhere. I know one who does aromatherapy in a back room, to earn extra cash.

Rosy Posy

pwurple wrote: »

You get crappy GP's everywhere. I know one who does aromatherapy in a back room, to earn extra cash.

He is a good GP. He offers vaccines to families that want them and accepts the decisions of those who decline them.

We have done our due diligence and decided as to what we think is best as is our right. The OP asked for resources which I provided in my first post. I'll leave you to your echo chamber.

Jerrica

Rosy Posy wrote: »

We have done our due diligence and decided as to what we think is best as is our right. The OP asked for resources which I provided in my first post. I'll leave you to your echo chamber.

It's your right, but it doesn't make you right. This is one of those parenting choices that does not just affect you, it affects the people around you too and it's why your decision will cause the people around you to get angry.

As with any time this argument raises its head, I wearily wonder how it is that people who are so privileged to have received an education and live such benefit-laden first world lives can be so ignorant about the prevention of potentially life threatening diseases - as pwurple pointed out, it really is a privilege to be vaccinated, you only need to visit a country where families can't afford the $1 life saving jabs that are so pettily dismissed by the anti vaxx movement to see how lucky we are to have vaccines readily available AND paid for by our national healthcarers. Peer reviewed science - factual science - tells us that vaccines are safe and necessary, and yet parents claim that "due diligence" has told them otherwise. Was this diligence read on the back of a corn flakes box?

An article in The New England Journal of Medicine from 2011 entitled The Age-Old Struggle against the Antivaccinationists notes “… the spectrum of anti-vaccinationists ranges from people who are simply ignorant about science … to a radical fringe element who use deliberate mistruths, intimidation, falsified data, and threats of violence in efforts to prevent the use of vaccines and to silence critics.” I think that puts it significantly more politely than I ever could.

pwurple

Rosy Posy wrote: »

He is a good GP.

In any profession, someone who doesn't believe in what they are doing/recommending is not right.

Neyite

Mod:
This is a really interesting discussion, and one I'd like to see continue so can we please keep it civil and have less of the sniping and personal remarks, please. Otherwise we will have to close it down, and I really don't want that to happen.

I realise its an emotive subject, but I think that if we can discuss it rationally and civilly and have a proper debate about it, it would be far more useful and informative to everyone, no matter what side you are on.

lazygal

There are good and bad doctors everywhere. Mine told me he left one practice after a week because the main GP was doing a nice line in scaring parents into paying for individual vaccines rather than the groups of shots, of course never mentioning that the efficacy of this method is questionable. He said couldn't in good conscience be part of a practice with such a shady policy. He, along with the other GP, have vaccinated all of their children and advised us to get other vaccines such as chicken pox and MenB.

LegacyUser

I have to laugh at the poster who said to do a course by Paul offit. I don't think you could get more biased if you tried. Dr Offit whose income comes from vaccines, who has his own vaccine, one which has been shown to increase the risk of serious gastro problems, twisting of the gut.
I agree with the mod who said to discuss things factually rather than emotionally. It's also very important that info come from unbiased, independent sources and Offit is certainly not independent or unbiased

skallywag

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Also if my kids are sick I take the responsibility of keeping them at home away from the very young, old or pregnant.

While your intentions here are good I am afraid that your logic is flawed. There are many diseases which are contagious long before the first symptoms are showing.

DublinWriter

As a father of a young child with autism, if I had the chance again I'd try and have three separate vaccinations spaced over 6-8 rather than the three in one.

In my ignorance, I always thought that vaccinations were basically dead, or nearly-dead bacteria that when introduced would allow the antibody system to build up a resistance.

Turns out the pharma companies can put a lot more stuff in there, too.

Vaccination is critical, but do your homework.

Jerrica

Unbiased?? wrote: »

I have to laugh at the poster who said to do a course by Paul offit. I don't think you could get more biased if you tried. Dr Offit whose income comes from vaccines, who has his own vaccine, one which has been shown to increase the risk of serious gastro problems, twisting of the gut.
I agree with the mod who said to discuss things factually rather than emotionally. It's also very important that info come from unbiased, independent sources and Offit is certainly not independent or unbiased

Why not back up your Big Lie claims with factual sources so. You're speaking about Dr. Paul Offit who has published over 100 peer reviewed articles, spearheaded the rotavirus vaccine which saves billions in economic loss through parental sick days and is one of the world's most consulted experts on vaccines right?

skallywag

DublinWriter wrote: »

As a father of a young child with autism, if I had the chance again I'd try and have three separate vaccinations spaced over 6-8 rather than the three in one

Has separating the vaccines been shown to lower the frequency of autism?

LegacyUser

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1303164

Dr Offit is the maker of this vaccine, he profits from it in the same way people said that Wakefield would profit from single measles vaccine. So it seems contradictory to me to label Wakefield as a fraud, biased etc because he was going to profit but then not apply the same standards to Offit?? I don't undestand that mentailty. And then to say that Offit has 1000s of papers on vaccines, well so does Wakefield, published in peer reviewed journals.
Both of these people have major vested interests and neither can be seen as unbiased or independent. The difference is some ignore this part of Offit because he is saying what you want to hear and he says it in a very strong way

ForestFire

I found these interesting and worth a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

http://themetapicture.com/angry-scientist-finds-uneducated-internet-comment-and-delivers-badass-response/

Also Op to say you do not look at the anti sites. Did you get this information from governmental, WHO and vaccine manufacturing web sites.


1st of all vaccines have a time limit on most of them 5 to 10 years.

2nd Autism may not be proven that there is a link but its happens at the same time as MMR.

3rd ​Aluminium poisoning.
The levels in vaccines are much higher then is considered safe in say hospital drips.
Research is great if its looking at the right things.

4th Side effects V risks. I know vaccines have gotten us to a much safer world but Polio. Does my child need it now?

Polio is very rare/gone due to vaccines, if everone decided not to vacinate for it I guess we would need it??