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Vaccines question

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    #302
    Satori Rae
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Satori Rae


    mulbot wrote: »
    Satori Rae wrote: »

    Can you find that post where i said my belief is that autism could be triggered by a vaccination? Maybe you mean the post where i said the judge concluded that?

    As I said it came across when you included the case was based on scientific research.

    And when you kept asking me to prove other wise and to research into it myself about how it could be linked basically also without agreeing with my general thoughts that vaccinations do not cause autism.
    It is not my fault I perceived your comments as so.

    If you felt that's how you were being perceived by my comments at the beginning of this thread (which by reading my comments would clearly imply I found you to be linking the two together) then you could have cleared it up by saying oh I am not linking the two I am only asking a question in the first place :/

    So its not all my fault if "I presumed" different :/


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    #303
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Satori Rae wrote: »
    mulbot wrote: »

    As I said it came across when you included the case was based on scientific research.

    And when you kept asking me to prove other wise and to research into it myself about how it could be linked basically also without agreeing with my general thoughts that vaccinations do not cause autism.
    It is not my fault I perceived your comments as so.

    If you felt that's how you were being perceived by my comments at the beginning of this thread (which by reading my comments would clearly imply I found you to be linking the two together) then you could have cleared it up by saying oh I am not linking the two I am only asking a question.

    So its not all my fault if "I presumed" different :/

    This is now getting a bit of topic and a bit he said she said.

    I asked you to find the link to the case,i didn't ask you in any post to find out how vaccines were linked to autism-

    It is obvious if you read the posts that i was referring to the judges/courts decisions,not my opinions, so yes it is your fault if you presumed differently, and i will ask you again then not to just presume,because you have done alot of it-if you need to clarify something ask me,


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    #304
    Satori Rae
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Satori Rae


    mulbot wrote: »
    Satori Rae wrote: »

    I asked you to find the link to the case,i didn't ask you in any post to find out how vaccines were linked to autism-

    It is obvious if you read the posts that i was referring to the judges/courts decisions,not my opinions, so yes it is your fault if you presumed differently, and i will ask you again then not to just presume,because you have done alot of it-if you need to clarify something ask me,

    A quote from mulbot
    "I thought you had researched this? because all vaccines vaccines registered with the FDA have to carry a full script,do i need to put up more links- the Tripedia vaccine has a very clear warning about being aware of the patient's medical history before administering, and a genetic disorder is a very clear example of a situation where vaccination should be fully researched before being administered!!"

    This quote taken from you from earlier in the thread clearly states you meant differently to what your saying now.

    When I said about autism being genetic you tried to argue this back.......it was probably unknown there was a pre genetic condition before administration but if you believe vaccinations can't cause autism or trigger it in the first place disclosure would not have being a necessity in this case.


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    #305
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Coming in late on this thread and I'm sure this has been said a hundred times before. Anyhow...
    mulbot wrote: »
    I've said everyone is entitled to make a decision based on information available regarding the pros and cons of their use and I'm doing that in the best interests of my child
    People shouldn't make choices based upon "information available", but on what the relevant modern scientific consensus is - basically, what people who have been studying these things for their entire lives and who summarise their research in peer-reviewed articles published in high-impact factor journals.

    I've got a niece who can't receive some common vaccines because she has a genetic defect which renders them useless. Kids like her rely on "herd immunity" which comes about when basically everybody in a population who can protect themselves by vaccination, make the responsible decision to do so.

    Your choice not to vaccinate your children puts my niece directly at risk of contracting a dangerous or fatal disease.

    You might wish to spend a few minutes considering the effects of your "information" actually is, before you choose to act upon it and put other people's lives at risk.


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    #306
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭mulbot


    robindch wrote: »
    Coming in late on this thread and I'm sure this has been said a hundred times before. Anyhow...People shouldn't make choices based upon "information available", but on what the relevant modern scientific consensus is - basically, what people who have been studying these things for their entire lives and who summarise their research in peer-reviewed articles published in high-impact factor journals.

    I've got a niece who can't receive some common vaccines because she has a genetic defect which renders them useless. Kids like her rely on "herd immunity" which comes about when basically everybody in a population who can protect themselves by vaccination, make the responsible decision to do so.

    Your choice not to vaccinate your children puts my niece directly at risk of contracting a dangerous or fatal disease.

    You might wish to spend a few minutes considering the effects of your "information" actually is, before you choose to act upon it and put other people's lives at risk.

    What if the "information available" comes from scientific research? And from medical journals,that,as i've said before is where i look to,I've said i look at both "sides" and make my decisions based on that. However,like any parent,i make decisions in the best interests of my child!


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    #307
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    mulbot wrote: »
    What if the "information available" comes from scientific research? And from medical journals,that,as i've said before is where i look to,I've said i look at both "sides" and make my decisions based on that. However,like any parent,i make decisions in the best interests of my child!
    But when you chose not to vaccinate your child, you're not just affecting the interests of your child, you are also affecting those who can't be vaccinated, or those who aren't completely immune yet, or who are too young to vaccinate yet. Herd immunity is really important.


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    #308
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭mulbot


    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    But when you chose not to vaccinate your child, you're not just affecting the interests of your child, you are also affecting those who can't be vaccinated, or those who aren't completely immune yet, or who are too young to vaccinate yet. Herd immunity is really important.

    Yes and has herd immunity been achieved in say,Ireland,that has a high vaccination rate? I don't believe I'm affecting the interests of my child,what i have learned from both sides,allows me to make an informed decision and i'm entitled to do that.


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    #309
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    mulbot wrote: »
    Yes and has herd immunity been achieved in say,Ireland,that has a high vaccination rate? I don't believe I'm affecting the interests of my child,what i have learned from both sides,allows me to make an informed decision and i'm entitled to do that.

    But herd immunity wouldn't be achieved in Ireland if more people made the decisions such as you have. That would be catastrophic. The only reason you are able to make this apparent "informed" decision you say you have is because of your reliance on others that have been vacinated this providing Ireland with good herd immunity. I think it's safe to say you might rethink your decision not to vacinate if you weren't so reliant on others immunity.


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    #310
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    mulbot wrote: »
    What if the "information available" comes from scientific research? And from medical journals,that,as i've said before is where i look to,I've said i look at both "sides" and make my decisions based on that. However,like any parent,i make decisions in the best interests of my child!

    But in reality land, where we live, you're not acting in the best interests of your child at all. You're putting him/her at risk of death.


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    #311
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Nonoperational wrote: »
    But in reality land, where we live, you're not acting in the best interests of your child at all. You're putting him/her at risk of death.

    I do not believe so


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    #312
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    tricky to put your trust in drug companies etc with this sort of carry on :
    The suits, consolidated in U.S. District Court in Pennsylvania, allege that Grunenthal GMBH, the German drug company who invented thalidomide, in cooperation with American companies Smith, Kline and French, now GlaxoSmithKline (NYSE: GSK), and Merrell Richardson, now Sanofi-Aventis (NYSE: SNY), hid evidence of thalidomide distribution in the United States in the late 1950s, lying to Congress and ....

    and then .........
    Defendants argued that the statute of limitations prevented any claims,

    http://www.thalidomideireland.com/recentnews.htm

    and now ..............
    Her brain is so damaged she has the comprehension of a toddler and has never uttered a word.
    Her twisted legs are shrunken, her back is bent, and every day she gets weaker still. She sometimes stops breathing for a minute at a time.
    In fact, it is a miracle that 6st Bridget is still alive at all.
    For she was born with a catastrophic array of medical ailments, including brain damage and spina bifida — where part of the spinal cord is exposed

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2284425/Epilepsy-The-drug-thats-harmed-children-Thalidomide.html



    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0803531#t=articleBackground


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    #313
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    mulbot wrote: »
    I do not believe so

    That's fine, but you're incorrect.


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    #314
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Nonoperational wrote: »
    That's fine, but you're incorrect.

    Thanks for the heads up


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    #315
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    gctest50 wrote: »
    tricky to put your trust in drug companies etc with this sort of carry on :



    and then .........



    and now ..............




    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0803531#t=articleBackground

    What a stupid post.

    1) Give over with the thalidomide. It was a well publicised disaster that resulted in the drug being withdrawn. Nothing to do with vaccines at all.

    2) It's well known that anti-epileptic drugs increase the risk of birth defects. It's a risk benefit thing that the mother has to decide on. Again, nothing to do with vaccines.

    I always try to avoid these threads, the sheer persistence of making stupid arguments that have nothing to do with vaccines is amazing. You'd find more common sense in a shrimp.


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    #316
    Satori Rae
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Satori Rae


    A little something from the CDC about not vaccinating your children can put them at risk and others!!!
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/patient-ed/conversations/downloads/not-vacc-risks-color-office.pdf


    More positive information from the HSE as to how and why and how effective vaccines are
    http://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/infomaterials/pubs/engyourchildsimm.pdf


    And also for a shorter over all brief
    http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/infant-and-toddler-health/in-depth/vaccines/art-20048334?reDate=19042015&pg=2


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    #317
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mulbot wrote: »
    I have 4 siblings,none of us were ever vaccinated and are perfectly normal,healthy etc and I in turn didn't vaccinate my child, i don't believe they are as necessary as they are made out to be-


    You piggybacked on the fact that enough of the population was vaccinated so that your siblings and your child haven't come in contact with the pathogens yet. But it might happen someday. If so, the odds are they will recover uneventfully, but they might not. And who will you blame then? ... the media, I suppose.


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    #318
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You piggybacked on the fact that enough of the population was vaccinated so that your siblings and your child haven't come in contact with the pathogens yet. But it might happen someday. If so, the odds are they will recover uneventfully, but they might not. And who will you blame then? ... the media, I suppose.

    How do you know that i haven't been exposed to pathogens to any of these diseases? And why would i blame the media? what a stupid statement

    By the way,i think you should know that my two younger brothers both had measles as children,i was in primary school with schoolmates who also had measles


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    #319
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    It certainly hasn't come close enough to people if they don't see it as a scary disease. Here is what Roald Dahl wrote about his daughter, Olivia.


    "Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it," he wrote.

    "Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything. 'Are you feeling all right?' I asked her. 'I feel all sleepy,' she said. In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead."

    Dahl added: "Incidentally, I dedicated two of my books to Olivia, the first was James and the Giant Peach. That was when she was still alive. The second was The BFG, dedicated to her memory after she had died from measles. You will see her name at the beginning of each of these books. And I know how happy she would be if only she could know that her death had helped to save a good deal of illness and death among other children."

    His wife Patricia Neal, who was Olivia's mother, said that Dahl was so devastated by Olivia's death that he never spoke about it.

    In a recently discovered private notebook kept by Dahl, he wrote about the moment he was told Olivia had died.

    "Got to hospital. Walked in. Two doctors advanced on me from waiting room. How is she? I'm afraid it's too late. I went into her room. Sheet was over her. Doctor said to nurse go out. Leave him alone. I kissed her. She was warm. I went out. 'She is warm.' I said to doctors in hall, 'why is she so warm?' 'Of course,' he said. I left."

    The contents of the notebook are published in Dahl biography Storyteller.


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    #320
    RentDayBlues
    Registered Users Posts: 2,131 ✭✭✭RentDayBlues


    mulbot wrote: »
    By the way,i think you should know that my two younger brothers both had measles as children,i was in primary school with schoolmates who also had measles

    Congratulations! What a fantastic achievement to have known so many people who had measles. Clearly this backs up your argument: all these people had measles, I didn't contract it, no one died therefore I don't have to vaccinate my children against it.

    The only problem here is that this is in incorrect. Children die from measles and its complications and by choosing not to vaccinate you are not just risking your children's lives but all of those who come into contact with them, shame on you


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    #321
    Noo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    pwurple wrote:
    It certainly hasn't come close enough to people if they don't see it as a scary disease. Here is what Roald Dahl wrote about his daughter, Olivia.




    I've had older doctors tell me about working on polio wards....horrific stuff, people cant even imagine it these days and it wasnt so long ago.


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    #322
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    My mother's aunt had rubella as a toddler, she was subsequently deaf and mute, and mentally handicapped as a result.

    A neighbour of mine had polio as a child in the 50's, he is crippled.

    I had whooping cough as a small child because my mother refused to vaccinate us, I remember coughing so much I vomitted. It's one of my first memories.

    Those are just three stories I have of the results of not vaccinating.


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    #323
    Noo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    Rather than just researching vaccinations I think mothers should also research the actual diseases they are protecting against.


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    #324
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    Noo wrote: »
    Rather than just researching vaccinations I think mothers should also research the actual diseases they are protecting against.

    ...... And fathers :)


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    #325
    Noo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    Sligo1 wrote:
    ...... And fathers


    Of course :)

    Seriously though...these are horrific diseases that most people cannot fathom these days and the reason for this is vaccinations. Because of vaccinations the majority of us will have never come close to seeing the reality of these diseases. Please please please research the diseases the vaccines are protecting against, look at the pictures, read the stories of heartbroken families!


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    #326
    seventeen sheep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 776 ✭✭✭seventeen sheep


    Mulbot I've got a question I'd love you to answer.

    Say if you had another child, and this new baby was immuno-suppressed. She wouldn't be able to get vaccines even if you wanted them, and as a baby and a child and throughout her entire life, she'd be extremely susceptible to contagious diseases, which would be far more dangerous to her than to any other child.

    Would you then get your older child vaccinated, for her protection? Or would you take your chances and let him bring home whatever dangerous diseases were doing the rounds?


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    #327
    SF12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 87 ✭✭SF12


    mulbot wrote: »
    How do you know that i haven't been exposed to pathogens to any of these diseases? And why would i blame the media? what a stupid statement

    By the way,i think you should know that my two younger brothers both had measles as children,i was in primary school with schoolmates who also had measles

    Ironically, you may actually NOT have had the measles at that time because you were exposed to (ie living with) your siblings who had it. In other words, you effectively had a vaccination effect, without having the vaccine. I have heard of this happening with diseases like tuberculosis - through exposure to it, immunity is developed at that time, preventing the individual from catching the disease. It is unlikely that it had anything to do with the argument about vaccinating or not vaccinating, it was simply a lottery effect.

    People more expert on the topic may correct me if I am wrong about this effect for a disease like measles; it may not operate like that. Furthermore I don't know if it means that you would still be immune. I know I have definitely heard of it happening with tuberculosis - one member of the family has it, and other members then carry it but don't develop it, as their exposure gives them a form of immunity. I also have read that as far back as the ancient Egyptians, people used to do things like rubbing clothes worn by someone who died from such diseases on children, so they would supposedly develop an immunity to the diseases.

    We may not know if you've been exposed or not to diseases, but really, neither do you. You stated that your siblings have not been vaccinated, but also that they did catch measles. They'd probably rather you all had vaccinations to prevent it, rather than (potentially) giving you immunity through their catching the disease. You got lucky. Many people don't.


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    #328
    Noo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,986 ✭✭✭Noo


    ^^^^^^

    How the cure for smallpox was discovered and the disease wiped out. Basic junior cert history for those interested in the history of immunisation.


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    #329
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭mulbot


    SF12 wrote: »
    Ironically, you may actually NOT have had the measles at that time because you were exposed to (ie living with) your siblings who had it. In other words, you effectively had a vaccination effect, without having the vaccine. I have heard of this happening with diseases like tuberculosis - through exposure to it, immunity is developed at that time, preventing the individual from catching the disease. It is unlikely that it had anything to do with the argument about vaccinating or not vaccinating, it was simply a lottery effect.

    People more expert on the topic may correct me if I am wrong about this effect for a disease like measles; it may not operate like that. Furthermore I don't know if it means that you would still be immune. I know I have definitely heard of it happening with tuberculosis - one member of the family has it, and other members then carry it but don't develop it, as their exposure gives them a form of immunity. I also have read that as far back as the ancient Egyptians, people used to do things like rubbing clothes worn by someone who died from such diseases on children, so they would supposedly develop an immunity to the diseases.

    We may not know if you've been exposed or not to diseases, but really, neither do you. You stated that your siblings have not been vaccinated, but also that they did catch measles. They'd probably rather you all had vaccinations to prevent it, rather than (potentially) giving you immunity through their catching the disease. You got lucky. Many people don't.

    My reply was about being exposed to pathogens,perhaps i did develop natural immunity,,


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    #330
    mulbot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭mulbot


    seventeen sheep wrote: »
    Mulbot I've got a question I'd love you to answer.

    Say if you had another child, and this new baby was immuno-suppressed. She wouldn't be able to get vaccines even if you wanted them, and as a baby and a child and throughout her entire life, she'd be extremely susceptible to contagious diseases, which would be far more dangerous to her than to any other child.

    Would you then get your older child vaccinated, for her protection? Or would you take your chances and let him bring home whatever dangerous diseases were doing the rounds?

    Well as ive said i'm not anti vacc,i would obviously have to consider that circumstance at the time and make a decision based on the best interests of my children,


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    #331
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    mulbot wrote: »
    Well as ive said i'm not anti vacc,i would obviously have to consider that circumstance at the time and make a decision based on the best interests of my children,

    I actually thought from the majority of your posts you were antivac. seems like I was completely wrong.

    <deleted by mod> But I honestly don't know how you can live with yourself. "My children" My my my.. God you are a selfish human being.


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