Vaccines question

mulbot

Satori Rae wrote: »

I'm not sure why you would want to believe a doctor who steals the blood of children and may I add got fired, or trust people with no knowledge of medical knowledge or made up sites people put up online saying it's things are true with no facts at all......

I don't understand any of you. You claim its for the interest of your children I worked a year as part of my training on a children's wards......heart breaking is seeing a child in a coma from brain swelling from a accident ......do you know how some children can die from meseals? ??

One of the symptoms is brain swelling something that you can help prevent via vaccination ......I just don't know how you can risk your lives.....your kids and others. ...you also put old people,babies and pregnant mothers at risk.

Also if people did research about vaccines they would know how they work.......they don't stop you from getting something 100% but if you do get it....it will be easier to fight it off.

Brain swelling can also occur from administering vaccines-i'm sure as a nurse you know what encephalitis is-i'll provide links now to keep you happy,you will need to look them up(M Blennow,Pediatrics 1989;84, p 62-67)

Satori Rae

mulbot wrote: »

Brain swelling can also occur from administering vaccines-i'm sure as a nurse you know what encephalitis is-i'll provide links now to keep you happy,you will need to look them up(M Blennow,Pediatrics 1989;84, p 62-67)

I do know what that is,any bad side effects are extremely extremely rare also vaccinations don't cause brain swelling, children might get a severe reaction (anaphylaxis) no reaction is autism related.

Also it can be a symptom of measles (as I just stated in my previous post) I just used a layman's term is all to make my point.

mulbot

Satori Rae wrote: »

I think from what I gleamed its being appealed also I read a few articles and that never came up in it.

Also the evidence they relied on Wakefields scribblings was tossed out. Again a genetic disorder has nothing to do with vaccinations

I thought you had researched this? because all vaccines vaccines registered with the FDA have to carry a full script,do i need to put up more links- the Tripedia vaccine has a very clear warning about being aware of the patient's medical history before administering, and a genetic disorder is a very clear example of a situation where vaccination should be fully researched before being administered!!

mulbot

Satori Rae wrote: »

I do know what that is, side effects like that are extremely extremely rare if it happens 1 out of every 1 hundred thousand children might get a severe reaction none of them autism related.

Also it can be a symptom of measles I just used a layman's term is all to make my point.

I don't have time to keep adding links,however that number is not right as another study i have links to showed most parents don't report the affects after the child has been giving vaccines,instead accepting that the unusually high temperature, fussiness, lethargic reaction,tiredness etc are all normal reactions.

Satori Rae

mulbot wrote: »

I thought you had researched this? because all vaccines vaccines registered with the FDA have to carry a full script,do i need to put up more links- the Tripedia vaccine has a very clear warning about being aware of the patient's medical history before administering, and a genetic disorder is a very clear example of a situation where vaccination should be fully researched before being administered!!

I'm not sure why you are being or seemingly behaving aggressively with your comments towards me

Firstly the only reasons not to vaccinate is.......severe allergic reaction although this does not rule out future vaccinations.

Being immune compromised such as under going treatment for cancer etc

With any medicine or vaccine there is always possible sanerios or risks even when taking a paracetamol. ....

Now it would be foolish that if it was known if you had a pre existing allergy or disorders that was not the cause of a difference of chromosomes and it was not disclosed or informed to the right people at the time or over looked and something went wrong then fair enough sue away or admit you forgot to tell someone an important piece of your history.

However Autism can sometimes take time to become apparent its not always noted the first day a child is born. So really in this case if they had not gotten the vaccine it would have been the same circumstance. Due to the fact this genetic condition is mainly down to chromosomes and even environmental factors.

Satori Rae

Also yes you're kind of right the number is a little off its actually less then one child in 1 hundred thousand.

I would rather my child have a raised temp then a full blown virus that could kill them.

SF12

gar32 wrote: »

I would not go with Babies as I have now but when they are older off course. I think most of the vaccines are great but just not for a baby that is just getting the systems up to speed with all the usual bacteria around.

Interesting. But then you have the choice not to go to these places...other people may not. As a matter of (equal) interest - what are the ages for vaccines in Germany? Are they the same as in Ireland? I don't think you've said this anywhere, but I'm getting lost in a myriad of random posts full of Googled medical advice.....

The one thing I will say about all these studies and numbers is that people need to know how to read and interpret them. Reading something that says "1 in 1000" or "aluminium levels are higher than..." needs to be very carefully interpreted. To really educate yourself, you would need to look at a huge volume of literature and research from across the world, spanning a large period of time because "safe" levels change with time and experience.Statistics for both sides also need to be taken in the context of a much wider picture, and interpreted carefully. It also needs to be born in mind that absolutely nothing is 100% perfect or 100% guaranteed, no matter how many studies have been done on it; a degree of extrapolation generally occurs in almost all research.

Furthermore, for all the people who tell you that the government and pharma companies are out to get us all, you should remember that the concept of vaccines has been around for millennia - long before government or pharma companies ever existed. Every single drug out there has side effects, that stretch from the 1 in 10 reaction, to the 1 in 10,000 reaction. Vaccines are no different. But you would probably think nothing of giving your child an antibiotic when they are sick, regardless.

Personally, my child has been and will be vaccinated because the risks of not doing it are far, far greater than the risks of doing it.

Jerrica

mulbot wrote: »

Maybe you can explain the recent case in Italy where a court deemed that a vaccine made by GSK,was linked to autism.

mulbot wrote: »

Actually Judge Nicola Di Leo determined that yes, the child had a genetic predisposition which made him more susceptible to the condition post-vaccination-

The judge, someone with scant scientific experience, over-ruled the Italian Ministry of Health in this case. So if you're prepared to believe the opinion of a judge (who, if you look at this case critically willingly ignored the medical testimonies of experts) over scientists then there's really going to be quite an impasse in this discussion.

The judge has no proof of a causal relationship, they weighed up the evidence and made a(n alarmingly incorrect) judgement.

Again, there is no proof of a vaccine causing autism in this case.

bp

I have a medical condition which mean certain illnesses would be life threatening to me - e.g. chicken pox. I never had it as a child and therefore have to get my child immunized for it. If they caught it I would have to stay with my parents in case I catch it to - I cannot get the vaccine.

Personally I am for immunisation but understand peoples fears. A lot of these fears may not be as relevant as they once were as vaccines are improved.

skallywag

gar32 wrote: »

This is a quote from the HTaP Vaccine hand out which is received when its given.



In the Swedish efficacy trial where 1,419 recipients received the pertussis components in Tripedia vaccine, three deaths due to
invasive bacterial infections occurred. Further investigation revealed no evidence for a causal relation between vaccination and
altered resistance to invasive disease caused by encapsulated bacteria.33 While the hypothesis that the two variables are related
cannot be ruled out in the Swedish trial, deaths due to invasive bacterial infections have been monitored in other trials. In
contrast to the Swedish trial, in the German case-control study and US open-label safety study, 14,971 infants received Tripedia
vaccine and no deaths due to invasive bacterial infections were reported.

This is a perfect example of how misinterpreting scientific data leads to mass hysteria which in turn leads to children not being vaccinated.

First, please carefully re-read the sentence starting 'Further investigation revealed ...'

Secondly, re-read the final sentence. It outlines a trial with 10 times the sample size (i.e. number of children given the vaccine) in which no deaths whatsoever occurred.

Thirdly, there will always be a finite number of deaths related to vaccination. But the frequency at which his occurs needs to be properly understood in order to put into perspective the risk versus benefit.

An example: A poster pointed towards a link with the headline 'Adverse events caused by vaccine result in 69 deaths'. This, taken on it's own, would appear shocking. But, read on a bit and it turns out that this data relates to India. There are more than 15 million babies born in India every year!

I firmly believe that children are not being vaccinated because their parents are misinterpreting the scientific data.

Das Kitty

It really shows the strength of confirmation bias when someone doesn't read the very next sentence after their bias is confirmed.

It's a human thing to look for things that confirm our innate beliefs, but it's also a human thing to question our own beliefs. It takes more effort, but it's always worthwhile.

ThisRegard

It may be a bit personal, but I'm sure those who don't vaccinate their children also don't use tampons as there's been definitive confirmation that they have lead to the death of people ?

Neyite

mulbot wrote: »

I'm sure you can find that yourself

Mod:
Generally if you make a statement on this site referring to a publication or statistics, you take the time to post the link to where you found it. Its not only site etiquette, but will also support the claim you make in your post.

So where you asked snidely if you need to keep posting links, I'll tell you, yes. Yes you do.

And as a reminder to my earlier mod post, I want this thread kept to a reasonable, civil discussion, and any snide asides to posters or personal digs will result in mod action.

pwurple

ThisRegard wrote: »

It may be a bit personal, but I'm sure those who don't vaccinate their children also don't use tampons as there's been definitive confirmation that they have lead to the death of people ?

Driving a car also leads to the death of people.... walking along a footpath can lead to the death of people. People are terrified of swimming, going in airplanes, all sorts of stuff. None of those things can SAVE lives though, tampons certainly don't. Vaccines do save lives.

We all perceive risk differently.... but this is putting children at risk, while perversely thinking you are being safer.

ThisRegard

It's sorta my point. There's a focus on avoiding vaccines because of perceived dangers when in fact the very parents who do so partake in risks, some obvious, some less so, on a daily basis, that could result in the deaths of themselves or family.

Das Kitty

ThisRegard wrote: »

It's sorta my point. There's a focus on avoiding vaccines because of perceived dangers when in fact the very parents who do so partake in risks, some obvious, some less so, on a daily basis, that could result in the deaths of themselves or family.

I think there's a lot about distrust of authority figures at the moment. Doctors and scientists and faceless pharmaceutical companies.

Added to that that inoculations require needles to be passed through small babies' skin, causing them pain and discomfort. Even as someone who is staunchly pro-vaccine, it felt very very wrong to hold my baby down while someone pierced his legs with needles. My logical and emotional sides were in conflict. I cried.

But it was over in a jiff and they were fine.

On the other hand, both of my kids had chicken pox last year. The baby was only a few months old. The pain he was in was horrific. The temperature, the itching, the pock mark on his eardrum that perforated it, causing some hearing loss. That still hurts. I still feel wretched about it. Not least because I didn't know that the vaccine could be got in Ireland when they contracted the disease, and only found out after.

I could have saved my children that ordeal they suffered. That still feels very very wrong.

pwurple

Das Kitty wrote: »

I could have saved my children that ordeal they suffered. That still feels very very wrong.

Oh no, I hate seeing this.

I've written numerous letters to various authorities asking for that damned chicken pox vaccine to be added to the schedule.

I vaccinated my eldest privately, and she's come through 6 outbreaks in the preschool/creche unscathed so far thank goodness. (the vaccine claims to be 70% effective I think?)

The youngest though is still not vaccinated, and won't be for another few months until the current schedule is over. She could have easily gotten it though, as your little one did. We just got lucky so far.

mulbot

Jerrica wrote: »

The judge, someone with scant scientific experience, over-ruled the Italian Ministry of Health in this case. So if you're prepared to believe the opinion of a judge (who, if you look at this case critically willingly ignored the medical testimonies of experts) over scientists then there's really going to be quite an impasse in this discussion.

The judge has no proof of a causal relationship, they weighed up the evidence and made a(n alarmingly incorrect) judgement.

Again, there is no proof of a vaccine causing autism in this case.

One of the major reasons he came to that decision was because of the script provided for the vaccine which had noted the very word "autism" in it's list of adverse affects during clinical testing!

Satori Rae

I am just going to leave this link here that debunks the lack of science behind the Italy case

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/incompetent-italian-courts-science/

oh and http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/italian-court-awards-compensation-autism-problem-unreliable-expert/

lazygal

I think GPs should recommend the chicken pox vaccine. I got it for mine because there are immune system issues in my family and when I was a child someone ended up in ICU because of it. Plus, why would you want a child to get a horrible illness that causes them so much difficulty and can scar them for life? For the price we paid it was worth it many times over, on the fact that we've not had to take leave or miss out on a pre-booked holiday which happened to someone I know. Then more importantly, they are safe.

I would also recommend looking into the MenB vaccine. It is quite expensive but for peace of mind it is worth it.

Satori Rae

lazygal wrote: »

I think GPs should recommend the chicken pox vaccine. I got it for mine because there are immune system issues in my family and when I was a child someone ended up in ICU because of it. Plus, why would you want a child to get a horrible illness that causes them so much difficulty and can scar them for life? For the price we paid it was worth it many times over, on the fact that we've not had to take leave or miss out on a pre-booked holiday which happened to someone I know. Then more importantly, they are safe.

I would also recommend looking into the MenB vaccine. It is quite expensive but for peace of mind it is worth it.

I did care work for for a lady whose daughter caught Men B when she was under 18 months, unfortunately she now is in a wheelchair, blind, deaf and cant talk along with basically no movement from the head down. (no vaccine for this existed at the time it happened).

Its a very cruel thing to happen to any one and the daughter of course has all the love and care in the world and best the equipment.

My point is putting false and fake fear and spreading misinformation about vaccines will lead to children being in the same situation.

If this vaccine was available years upon years ago you can rest assured the lady this happened to and every other mother would be queuing up getting it.

Neyite

About 10% of children vaccinated for Chicken Pox still get a dose of it doing the rounds. I know someone who's child got it.

Now, it seems that it was a dose that was slightly milder than other kids by the sounds of it which might be down to the vaccine, but then, CP can vary in severity depending on the child.

That 10% was what my friend stated, so don't know where she got that figure from.

pwurple

Satori Rae wrote: »

If this vaccine was available years upon years ago you can rest assured the lady this happened to and every other mother would be queuing up getting it.

Unless they read somewhere that aluminium levels which are lower than what is in ordinary breastmilk... were somehow toxic in vaccines.

tinkerbell

DasKitty - hearing loss?!!! OMG How is his hearing now?

I'm terrified of my baby catching the chicken pox. I'll be getting the vaccine as soon as I can - paediatrician said 14 months is preferable to do it because of the other vaccines at 12 and 13 months. It bugs the crap out of me when people say tis a right of passage or whatever - no, it can also be awful and can have severe complications.

We've also gotten the MenB vax and bloody heck it is crazy expensive and 3 jabs are needed. But I'd rather pay it than not get the vax at all. MenB is horrific. They really need to add it to the schedule. We're lucky in that we can afford it but there are many many families who couldn't pay that because the price is astronomical.

lazygal

Mine needed two jabs for Men B and another friend was the same, different area and GP. Is there a different version with three jabs?

My GP did say there is a chance of chicken pox even with the vaccine, but for the increased chance of them not getting it we decided to go ahead.

ETA: http://www.meningitis.org/menb-vaccine

kandr10

just to put a question out there to the anti vax people - what do you see as a reasonable alternative to vaccinations?

clearly no parent would want their kids to suffer so given that not vaccinating (is that even a word?!) would result in massive increases in diseases that have been almost eradicated, what's the alternative?

If someone could answer this honestly and reasonably is be grateful.

sleepyheadh

Das Kitty wrote: »

I think there's a lot about distrust of authority figures at the moment. Doctors and scientists and faceless pharmaceutical companies.

Added to that that inoculations require needles to be passed through small babies' skin, causing them pain and discomfort. Even as someone who is staunchly pro-vaccine, it felt very very wrong to hold my baby down while someone pierced his legs with needles. My logical and emotional sides were in conflict. I cried.

But it was over in a jiff and they were fine.

On the other hand, both of my kids had chicken pox last year. The baby was only a few months old. The pain he was in was horrific. The temperature, the itching, the pock mark on his eardrum that perforated it, causing some hearing loss. That still hurts. I still feel wretched about it. Not least because I didn't know that the vaccine could be got in Ireland when they contracted the disease, and only found out after.

I could have saved my children that ordeal they suffered. That still feels very very wrong.

Calm down, its an injection, your child wasn't stabbed in the leg..They literally were oblivious to the whole thing 5 minutes later.

Im pretty sure, 90% of the population contract chicken pox before adolescence, I have never heard of a child cursing their mother because of it yet.

Satori Rae

Neyite wrote: »

About 10% of children vaccinated for Chicken Pox still get a dose of it doing the rounds. I know someone who's child got it.

Now, it seems that it was a dose that was slightly milder than other kids by the sounds of it which might be down to the vaccine, but then, CP can vary in severity depending on the child.

That 10% was what my friend stated, so don't know where she got that figure from.

You can find stats of vaccines success rates on government sites .

The rate for the chicken pox is that 9 out of 10 develop immunity. Cant find stats to see how large the test group was in this one though.

sleepyheadh

I wonder how many people who are staunch anti-vaxxers, had an epidural, whilst delivering their precious bundles of joy?

lazygal

sleepyheadh wrote: »

I wonder how many people who are staunch anti-vaxxers, had an epidural, whilst delivering their precious bundles of joy?

Or ever use an antibiotic? Me, I try to be green and earth mothery where possible. I'm still breastfeeding my second child who's 19 months of age and I use cloth nappies and wipes. I still vaccinate though. Some people seem to think it's a badge of honour that they've seen through whatever big pharma conspiracy is doing the rounds.