Vaccines question

Sligo1

mulbot wrote: »

have thought the same,me and my 4 siblings were never vaccinated,none of us ever are sick,i see too that when my child, and my brothers kids have the sniffles etc,they seem to clear up alot quicker than their cousins(who are vaccinated),

If my kids ever get TB or are subjected to anyither other illnesses that may result in death or permanent debilitating conditions... I'm pretty sure the symptoms will clear up a lot quicker than they would in your kids tho...

Give me a few sniffles anyday over measles, TB or Meningitis....

mulbot

Sligo1 wrote: »

If my kids ever get TB or are subjected to anyither other illnesses that may result in death or permanent debilitating conditions... I'm pretty sure the symptoms will clear up a lot quicker than they would in your kids tho...

Give me a few sniffles anyday over measles, TB or Meningitis....

who knows for sure?

Sligo1

mulbot wrote: »

who knows for sure?

Everyone who's ever done research on the subject. It's been scientifically proven. Otherwise vaccinations would not be recommended by the World Health Organisation .

mulbot

Sligo1 wrote: »

Everyone who's ever done research on the subject. It's been scientifically proven. Otherwise vaccinations would not be recommended by the World Health Organisation .

show me some link where it says for SURE that vaccinated children always will recover from symptoms quicker than those who haven't been,please

mulbot

Sligo1 wrote: »

Everyone who's ever done research on the subject. It's been scientifically proven. Otherwise vaccinations would not be recommended by the World Health Organisation .

show me some link where it says for SURE that vaccinated children always will recover from symptoms quicker than those who haven't been,please

Oh and what about scientifically proven side effects of vaccines? Do you dismiss those?

Sligo1

mulbot wrote: »

show me some link where it says for SURE that vaccinated children always will recover from symptoms quicker than those who haven't been,please

You said always... Not me. I'm talking statistics. It's more likely that they would recover quicker or more significantly than those children who have not been immunised against these diseases. Perhaps not always tho. But I for one wouldn't want to take that risk knowing the statistics that are available. I dont think I need to post a link? If you just read the thread, the last few pages have provided more than ample links stating these scientifically proven facts . Just take a read of the last few pages. It's all there For you if you want to read it?

Sligo1

mulbot wrote: »

show me some link where it says for SURE that vaccinated children always will recover from symptoms quicker than those who haven't been,please

Oh and what about scientifically proven side effects of vaccines? Do you dismiss those?

I don't dismiss them. I read about them and make an informed decision based on the safety of my children. What about the scientifically proven side effects of antibiotics? Have you or your kids ever taken an antibiotic?.... Or do you just let them suffer and hope they will get over the infection in time?

mulbot

Sligo1 wrote: »

You said always... Not me. I'm talking statistics. It's more likely that they would recover quicker or more significantly than those children who have not been immunised against these diseases. Perhaps not always tho. But I for one wouldn't want to take that risk knowing the statistics that are available. I dont think I need to post a link? If you just read the thread, the last few pages have provided more than ample links stating these scientifically proven facts . Just take a read of the last few pages. It's all there For you if you want to read it?

Mod:
"Generally if you make a statement on this site referring to a publication or statistics, you take the time to post the link to where you found it. Its not only site etiquette, but will also support the claim you make in your post.

So where you asked snidely if you need to keep posting links, I'll tell you, yes. Yes you do."

According to the mod on this thread a few pages back,yes you do need to provide a link!!( this was posted to me)

Akrasia

mulbot wrote: »

show me some link where it says for SURE that vaccinated children always will recover from symptoms quicker than those who haven't been,please

Vaccinations are only effective against the specific diseases they are intended for. They have absolutely no impact on your general constitution.

Whatever about your general good health, do you really want your kids to take risks with diseases like polio, meningitis, TB?

It's a bit like someone refusing to wear a seatbelt because they've never broken a bone before...

mulbot

Akrasia wrote: »

Vaccinations are only effective against the specific diseases they are intended for. They have absolutely no impact on your general constitution.

Whatever about your general good health, do you really want your kids to take risks with diseases like polio, meningitis, TB?

It's a bit like someone refusing to wear a seatbelt because they've never broken a bone before...

We are referring to these diseases

Sligo1

Going to bed now but will be happy to research an appropriate link an provide it for you tomorrow . In the meantime if you are in a hurry to know the stats just read the last few pages. It all there for you .

By the way, I don't think I came across snide at all. Apologies if I came across that way. But on the other hand... Your posts seem to becoming increasingly aggressive. I always find When people realise they in the wrong and don't want to admit it they usually take that stance. Have a lovely night .

mulbot

Sligo1 wrote: »

I don't dismiss them. I read about them and make an informed decision based on the safety of my children. What about the scientifically proven side effects of antibiotics? Have you or your kids ever taken an antibiotic?.... Or do you just let them suffer and hope they will get over the infection in time?

Likewise! No my child has never had an antibiotic,never needed any(hope it stays that way), i have yes,i don't see antibiotics as having as many or as serious side effects,usually it's really overuse of those where problems arise

mulbot

Sligo1 wrote: »

Going to bed now but will be happy to research an appropriate link an provide it for you tomorrow . In the meantime if you are in a hurry to know the stats just read the last few pages. It all there for you .

By the way, I don't think I came across snide at all. Apologies if I came across that way. But on the other hand... Your posts seem to becoming increasingly aggressive. I always find When people realise they in the wrong and don't want to admit it they usually take that stance. Have a lovely night .

sleep tight-sorry,it doesn't mean you were snide,that was just copied from what was posted to me earlier in the thread,you should have seen the quote marks

ShaShaBear

I've vaccinated my child from the beginning and will continue to do so with her and the new child I am pregnant with. To think that, while spending three days in hospital with a newborn, anyone could have walked in carrying a deadly disease that could have meant I would have left the hospital with a dead daughter!
The potential side effects of any vaccine is very forgiving compared to the symptoms of the diseases they help prevent. Having studied immunology, viruses and vaccinations, I felt I was making a conscious decision to protect my child's life and the life of any children she would come into contact with.

I spoke to my nurse at length before all of her jabs. She was very concise with her information on the administration, injection sites, reactions both immediate and gradual, options of pain relief, ingredients both deactivated and live and we discussed her ability to form immunity. I felt utterly at ease that I was making the right decision, and I do feel that a lot of people on the fence are not getting the assurance they need that preventing fatal illnesses is the way to go.

Not everyone who smokes gets cancer.
Not everyone who drinks gets sclerosis.
Not everyone who drives dies in a car accident.
Not everyone who is spoonfed before 6 months develops IBS.

Saying that you didn't get sick from a deadly disease when you were not vaccinated is just silly. Russian roulette has winners, but someone's going to die eventually.

Not G.R

Health, vaccinations and junk science: https://youtu.be/P0ZZTjChW4o

Here's a video by Science journalist Peter Hadfield going through various scientific papers and the data contained in them.

Didn't realise. My bad.
Potholer54 is the YT handle is anyone's interested.
Mod:
No you-tube links permitted as per charter.
Can the mod who edited out the YT link PM me please? I'm on the touch site and can't see who's edited! Cheer

Mod:
Sorry Not G.R, I've made a mistake in editing out your you tube link, I've reinstated it as it's not against the charter of this forum. Apologies.

mulbot

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I've vaccinated my child from the beginning and will continue to do so with her and the new child I am pregnant with. To think that, while spending three days in hospital with a newborn, anyone could have walked in carrying a deadly disease that could have meant I would have left the hospital with a dead daughter!
The potential side effects of any vaccine is very forgiving compared to the symptoms of the diseases they help prevent. Having studied immunology, viruses and vaccinations, I felt I was making a conscious decision to protect my child's life and the life of any children she would come into contact with.

I spoke to my nurse at length before all of her jabs. She was very concise with her information on the administration, injection sites, reactions both immediate and gradual, options of pain relief, ingredients both deactivated and live and we discussed her ability to form immunity. I felt utterly at ease that I was making the right decision, and I do feel that a lot of people on the fence are not getting the assurance they need that preventing fatal illnesses is the way to go.

Not everyone who smokes gets cancer.
Not everyone who drinks gets sclerosis.
Not everyone who drives dies in a car accident.
Not everyone who is spoonfed before 6 months develops IBS.

Saying that you didn't get sick from a deadly disease when you were not vaccinated is just silly. Russian roulette has winners, but someone's going to die eventually.

Do you mean" saying that you didn't get sick from a deadly disease BECAUSE you were not vaccinated is just silly"?,Because as it's written it would be stating a fact,couldn't really say that's silly.. I also don't think everyone who does get a vaccine is going to develop some side effect,illness etc.

ShaShaBear

mulbot wrote: »

Do you mean" saying that you didn't get sick from a deadly disease BECAUSE you were not vaccinated is just silly"?, I also don't think everyone who does get a vaccine is going to develop some side effect,illness etc.

No, I meant exactly what I said. I am referring to the numerous posters who said that they were not vaccinated and never got sick. They are trying to suggest that their "dodging" of serious, preventable illnesses was more than just sheer luck. They didn't say that their health was because they never got vaccinated. No-one's that stupid!

zl1whqvjs75cdy

gar32 wrote: »

So after a long chat with an expert. I am not a 100% convinced vaccination doesn't harm a child's ability to fight other sicknesses. between the two of my kids the oldest was only sick once. I myself have had no boosters and have never had a sickness other than a cold. My friends children seem to be sick often. What do people think of that?

That anecdotes don't best statistics. Even on a Friday night.

ShaShaBear

I have had all my boosters and my child is vaccinated. I am rarely ever sick and my child has only been sick once. My friend's children, none of which are vaccinated, are always ill.

What do you think of that?

Lingua Franca

gar32 wrote: »

4th Side effects V risks. I know vaccines have gotten us to a much safer world but Polio. Does my child need it now?
Chances of it get out of the countries its trapped in? Fingers crossed its gone forever.

I'm not sure if this has been fully addressed but that someone would think like this is terrifying. It was eradicated everywhere except Afghanistan and Pakistan, then Nigeria stopped the vaccinations and it came back there. It's now spreading all over African and the Middle East again. It's back in Syria because the war there is preventing aid workers from administering it. No vaccines and the disease comes back. It's highly contagious and it doesn't require a visa to travel.

"Trapped" in a country? There's no such thing.

mulbot

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I have had all my boosters and my child is vaccinated. I am rarely ever sick and my child has only been sick once. My friend's children, none of which are vaccinated, are always ill.

What do you think of that?

i think it's great for you and your child, it would be silly to say people who are vaccinated will all get sick,and it would be silly to say anyone who has never been vaccinated will stay healthy-what illness do your friend's children suffer?

Satori Rae

Polio exists still it is high risk in certain counties still as Lingua says. Also vaccinated or not you can get sick from anything but being vaccinated means what you are vaccinated against wont have the possibility to kill you or cause serious harm. And also the amount of people vaccinated and time since vaccines have widely come about it would have been well noted by now if there were in fact sudden long term side effects .

pwurple

Mulbot, i think your quetion is whether being vaccinated for polio will make it more likely you get a cough, or cold? Is that right?


From my understanding, cold and coughs are an immune response. It's how our bodies kill viruses and bacteria. Our sinuses and lungs produce gunk to trap the virus and boot it out. There are millions of viruses which produce the same response, which us why the "common" cold is virtually impossible to cure.. It's not a disease, it's our own defense system. And everybody is different.

Just like we all have slightly different skeletons, different teeth, different fingerprints... We also have slightly different immune responses. Somechildren get massive colds and coughs, some get tiny tickles. I see it with own children. The eldest will be thrown down with a cold, the youngest doesn't even notice, barely gets a sniffle. They've the same parents, live in the same house, eat the same food, vaccinated on the same schedule.

seventeen sheep

Just to use chicken pox as an example ...

I had planned all along on getting the vaccination as soon as possible for my son. It seems the only reason it's excluded from the current vaccination schedule is because of the cost. It can't be done until all other vaccinations are finished.

Anyways we didn't get that far. He caught it at around eight months, and it was fine. The spots barely bothered him, we slathered on a bit of cream the odd time, didn't need to bother with oatmeal baths or any of that. No scars, and he was in good form generally throughout. The worst thing about it really was having to arrange time off work for the duration.

So, does this mean I'll change my thoughts on getting the vaccine for any future babies? Not in the slightest. Two reasons:

1) We got off lucky. I'm thankful for that, but that's all it was - pure luck. Two thirds of his class were off creche at the same time with it - I'm sure it wasn't so easy for all of them. You read stories like what Das Kitty's little boy went through with it, it sounds horrible, and unfortunately bad cases like that are not uncommon. My own sister caught it when she was around ten (over a decade ago now) - in hindsight she should probably have been hospitalised because it seemed to last a very long time, and she went from being a healthy weight to being absolutely skeletal, I remember my mum bathing her and she was literally skin and bone, too weak to support herself in the bath, too weak to even cry any more. She recovered but was left with many scars (including some on her face) and was never able to get back to a healthy weight. Why put a child through that when it can be prevented?

2) I dread to think how many children and adults were infected (or could have been infected) by my son. He was contagious without symptoms for I think two weeks before the spots appeared. He attends creche daily, also we frequently bring him on public transport. I think he attended a doctor's appointment with me, where he would have spent quite a while in a small room with possibly vulnerable patients. My own father has terminal cancer and his immune system is compromised - he would have been closely exposed to him. The reason I'm using chicken pox as an example here is because it's very contagious but only a minority receive the vaccination. Imagine if that was measles, mumps, meningitis etc I was talking about? Children can also catch these illnesses and only suffer mild effects, but chances are if they pass it on to a vulnerable person who dies as a result, you'll probably never know of it. That's why I find it so irresponsible that parents knowingly choose not to vaccinate - it's all well and good to say you'd keep your kids home while sick, what about the contagious period before symptoms appear? I have no intention of keeping my son wrapped up in cotton wool at home - therefore I do what I can to protect him and others he encounters by getting him vaccinated.

Finally I do think it's important when making the decision to think of the worst case scenarios.

OK, say if my son were to be diagnosed with autism in the future. From all my research, any link to vaccines is tenuous (complete fabrication, really) BUT, just for the sake of argument, let's say some new research in the future definitively proves a link between vaccines and autism. Could I live with my decision? Yes. I was doing the right thing according to the best medical advice available at the time. More importantly, in that case, would I vaccinate my next child? Absolutely. The benefits outweigh any potential risk. And if the next child turned out to be autistic too, I'd still stand by my decision.

On the other hand, the worst case scenario if I chose not to vaccinate is the thought of standing over a hospital bed watching my child suffering/dying because of a preventable illness, which I knew was dangerous and contagious and potentially fatal, but which I chose (against medical advice) not to protect him from. Could I stand by that decision? I'm not sure many parents could.

By the way, same goes for those who purposely delay vaccines - in a way I can see the thinking behind it, it does seem somehow kinder to the child - not so much so if it's within that delayed period that they happen to be exposed to a fatal illness. We ended up a few weeks behind schedule with vaccinations for various reasons (he couldn't get them when he had conjunctivitis, ear infection, etc) - I was quite uncomfortable with this, as you just don't know when they might be exposed to someone carrying a disease.

Most parenting decisions, I might not agree with, but I respect the parent's choice in the matter. I can't say I respect the choice of those who don't vaccinate, because it doesn't just affect their family - it affects everyone. If you choose not to vaccinate your child, your child ends up with a mild form of an illness, recovers quickly, you might think you've won, you've beaten the system, you've made the right choice. You'll probably remain blissfully unaware of those left seriously ill or dead after your child directly or indirectly passed the disease to them.

Akrasia

Excellent post.

throughout human civilisation how many countless mothers watched in anguish as their children were killed and maimed by the diseases covered by the vaccination programme?. They would have given anything to protect their children, and now that we have safe effective vaccines against them, some parents are too scared to use them, and this causes outbreaks.

Someone mentioned that their kids attend a Waldorf school where most of the kids are unvaccinated. All it takes is for one child to get measles and you're almost guaranteed an outbreak and what are the chances of even one of those kids being in contact with a pregnant woman or someone with compromised immunity?

Antibiotic resistant TB is spreading alarmingly fast.It's a life threatening illness. Ask your grandmother about the many people she knew whose lives were destroyed by Consumption....

Roesy

I did a bit of volunteering on a big wheelchair sports event in the States a few years back. One of the athletes, a guy only a couple of years older than me, was wheelchair bound because of Polio. The vaccine was not commonly available in the country he was born in and he contracted it as a young child. This guy was married, had a family, a career and was a paraolympian. Did he wish he hadn't contracted what is a mostly preventable disease. Of course he did!

Akrasia

mulbot wrote: »

Likewise! No my child has never had an antibiotic,never needed any(hope it stays that way), i have yes,i don't see antibiotics as having as many or as serious side effects,usually it's really overuse of those where problems arise

Antibiotics are definitely overused. They are a blunt instrument that alters the balance of bacterial flora in your body and a course of antibiotics can increase the risk of secondary infections as your body is recolonised.

My kids have never had them either because they've never needed them, but if they had a serious infection that they can cure then I will use them in a heartbeat.

My kids have all had all their vaccines because it's the responsible thing to do, not just for the benefit of my kids, but for public health reasons.

Digs

seventeen sheep wrote: »

Just to use chicken pox as an example ...

I had planned all along on getting the vaccination as soon as possible for my son. It seems the only reason it's excluded from the current vaccination schedule is because of the cost. It can't be done until all other vaccinations are finished.

Anyways we didn't get that far. He caught it at around eight months, and it was fine. The spots barely bothered him, we slathered on a bit of cream the odd time, didn't need to bother with oatmeal baths or any of that. No scars, and he was in good form generally throughout. The worst thing about it really was having to arrange time off work for the duration.

So, does this mean I'll change my thoughts on getting the vaccine for any future babies? Not in the slightest. Two reasons:

1) We got off lucky. I'm thankful for that, but that's all it was - pure luck. Two thirds of his class were off creche at the same time with it - I'm sure it wasn't so easy for all of them. You read stories like what Das Kitty's little boy went through with it, it sounds horrible, and unfortunately bad cases like that are not uncommon. My own sister caught it when she was around ten (over a decade ago now) - in hindsight she should probably have been hospitalised because it seemed to last a very long time, and she went from being a healthy weight to being absolutely skeletal, I remember my mum bathing her and she was literally skin and bone, too weak to support herself in the bath, too weak to even cry any more. She recovered but was left with many scars (including some on her face) and was never able to get back to a healthy weight. Why put a child through that when it can be prevented?

2) I dread to think how many children and adults were infected (or could have been infected) by my son. He was contagious without symptoms for I think two weeks before the spots appeared. He attends creche daily, also we frequently bring him on public transport. I think he attended a doctor's appointment with me, where he would have spent quite a while in a small room with possibly vulnerable patients. My own father has terminal cancer and his immune system is compromised - he would have been closely exposed to him. The reason I'm using chicken pox as an example here is because it's very contagious but only a minority receive the vaccination. Imagine if that was measles, mumps, meningitis etc I was talking about? Children can also catch these illnesses and only suffer mild effects, but chances are if they pass it on to a vulnerable person who dies as a result, you'll probably never know of it. That's why I find it so irresponsible that parents knowingly choose not to vaccinate - it's all well and good to say you'd keep your kids home while sick, what about the contagious period before symptoms appear? I have no intention of keeping my son wrapped up in cotton wool at home - therefore I do what I can to protect him and others he encounters by getting him vaccinated.

Finally I do think it's important when making the decision to think of the worst case scenarios.

OK, say if my son were to be diagnosed with autism in the future. From all my research, any link to vaccines is tenuous (complete fabrication, really) BUT, just for the sake of argument, let's say some new research in the future definitively proves a link between vaccines and autism. Could I live with my decision? Yes. I was doing the right thing according to the best medical advice available at the time. More importantly, in that case, would I vaccinate my next child? Absolutely. The benefits outweigh any potential risk. And if the next child turned out to be autistic too, I'd still stand by my decision.

On the other hand, the worst case scenario if I chose not to vaccinate is the thought of standing over a hospital bed watching my child suffering/dying because of a preventable illness, which I knew was dangerous and contagious and potentially fatal, but which I chose (against medical advice) not to protect him from. Could I stand by that decision? I'm not sure many parents could.

By the way, same goes for those who purposely delay vaccines - in a way I can see the thinking behind it, it does seem somehow kinder to the child - not so much so if it's within that delayed period that they happen to be exposed to a fatal illness. We ended up a few weeks behind schedule with vaccinations for various reasons (he couldn't get them when he had conjunctivitis, ear infection, etc) - I was quite uncomfortable with this, as you just don't know when they might be exposed to someone carrying a disease.

Most parenting decisions, I might not agree with, but I respect the parent's choice in the matter. I can't say I respect the choice of those who don't vaccinate, because it doesn't just affect their family - it affects everyone. If you choose not to vaccinate your child, your child ends up with a mild form of an illness, recovers quickly, you might think you've won, you've beaten the system, you've made the right choice. You'll probably remain blissfully unaware of those left seriously ill or dead after your child directly or indirectly passed the disease to them.

This plus a million. I've been following this thread but haven't contributed. I couldn't have put it better, especially the last paragraph.

Sligo1

mulbot wrote: »

Mod:
"Generally if you make a statement on this site referring to a publication or statistics, you take the time to post the link to where you found it. Its not only site etiquette, but will also support the claim you make in your post.

So where you asked snidely if you need to keep posting links, I'll tell you, yes. Yes you do."

According to the mod on this thread a few pages back,yes you do need to provide a link!!( this was posted to me)

Here you go. http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/2/07-040089/en/

Please see mitigation of disease severity .

Would be great if you could provide links for your assertions .

Sligo1

To conclude... Vaccinated people may demonstrate decreased severity of illness symptoms Compared to unvaccinated people. Exactly what I said in my previous post.