The 12th

William F

I know this may seem like a silly question but do Protestant Irish Republicans celebrate the 12th?

Peregrinus

No. Why would they? As Republicans, they would reject the sectarianism implicit in the celebration.

William F

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. Why would they? As Republicans, they would reject the sectarianism implicit in the celebration.

I thought the 12th was about religious liberty

Peregrinus

Mmm, if we're honest it's more about invoking the rhetoric of religious liberty in the cause of intercommunal conflict. The upshot of that particular conflict was a distinct reduction in religious toleration in Ireland.

Your mileage may vary, of course. But Republicans, at any rate, would tend to see it that way, and hence wouldn't participate in celebrations of the 12th.

Del.Monte

William F wrote: »

I know this may seem like a silly question but do Protestant Irish Republicans celebrate the 12th?

What's a 'Protestant Irish Republican' - current examples - apart from Martin Mansergh?

Jellybaby1

Someone like me. And......no, we don't 'celebrate' the twawlfth!

Del.Monte

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Someone like me. And......no, we don't 'celebrate' the twawlfth!

It seems like a daft question anyway as the 12th is a celebration of Loyalism over Nationalism more than anything.

On a slightly related topic, how is a Southern Unionist to 'celebrate' the 1916 centenary or is it just the usual - keep the head down.

Jellybaby1

I am not and nor do I know anyone who would call themselves a 'Southern Unionist', but they probably do exist. A republic is preferable to a monarchy but only if a majority votes. Someone told me once that the US President is normally voted in by a minority as a lot of people just do not bother voting. Anyway that's OT. I will be taking an interest in the commemorations of 1916 but not celebrating it as after all the Rising itself was a failure, it was the swift executions of the leaders that added fuel to the fire of rebellion and ultimately independence. Myself, I would love to know what Ireland could have been like if the executed leaders had been allowed to live and see Ireland free. How does President Connolly or President Collins sound? And don't forget there were many innocent civilians killed as well, needlessly.

Del.Monte

You've just met one on Boards - and a monarchist too! I won't be celebrating 1916 but I do have a project underway to mark the event.

Intifada

Del.Monte wrote: »

What's a 'Protestant Irish Republican' - current examples - apart from Martin Mansergh?

I would imagine an example would be a supporter of Irish Republicanism who is of the Protestant faith.

William F

David Norris once declared himself a Unionist in the senate. It was the same day I stopped listening to him.

Protestant Irish Republican's exist just like white ANC members do.

I'm sure there are many in the north.

mariaalice

William F wrote: »

David Norris once declared himself a Unionist in the senate. It was the same day I stopped listening to him.

Protestant Irish Republican's exist just like white ANC members do.

I'm sure there are many in the north.

Why do you associate all protestant with unionism that's bizarre and insulting as well.

Intifada

mariaalice wrote: »

Why do you associate all protestant with unionism that's bizarre and insulting as well.

Whether it's insulting is up to you, but it isn't even remotely "bizarre" considering how steeped in religion the Unionist/Loyalist side is. Republicanism has aligned itself with Catholicism to some extent, but nowhere near as much as Loyalism/Protestants. To say otherwise is extreme naivety.

mariaalice

Intifada wrote: »

Whether it's insulting is up to you, but it isn't even remotely "bizarre" considering how steeped in religion the Unionist/Loyalist side is. Republicanism has aligned itself with Catholicism to some extent, but nowhere near as much as Loyalism/Protestants. To say otherwise is extreme naivety.

Yes in NI but the discussion is about the Republic of Ireland

Intifada

mariaalice wrote: »

Yes in NI but the discussion is about the Republic of Ireland

Do you think the same does not apply?

mariaalice

Not at all, first off being Protestantism in the republic is more religious/cultural and is not political there is no equivalent to the DUP here for example. Try asking Bono or Ivan Yeats would they feel any affinity with the Orange order just because of their religious or cultural background.

Intifada

mariaalice wrote: »

Not at all, first off being Protestantism in the republic is more religious/cultural and is not political there is no equivalent to the DUP here for example. Try asking Bono or Ivan Yeats would they feel any affinity with the Orange order just because of their religious or cultural background.

Yeah nobody has said all Prods are Loyalists, they just associated Protestanism with Unionism which is, as I've explained, entirely reasonable.

Not all Unionists are in the Order either btw

mariaalice

Intifada wrote: »

Yeah nobody has said all Prods are Loyalists, they just associated Protestanism with Unionism which is, as I've explained, entirely reasonable.

Not all Unionists are in the Order either btw

Would that be all Protestantism every where in the world? the assumption is lazy and stereotyping.

I have never heard of southern unionism in modern times, that doesn't mean they don't exist I understand that.

Intifada

mariaalice wrote: »

Would that be all Protestantism every where in the world? the assumption is lazy and stereotyping.

No dear, in Ireland.

Del.Monte

mariaalice wrote: »

Would that be all Protestantism every where in the world? the assumption is lazy and stereotyping.

I have never heard of southern unionism in modern times, that doesn't mean they don't exist I understand that.

We haven't all gone away you know.

https://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/patrick-melly-conservative-and-unionist-sligo-leitrim-1992-general-election/

mariaalice

Del.Monte wrote: »

We haven't all gone away you know.

https://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/patrick-melly-conservative-and-unionist-sligo-leitrim-1992-general-election/

That acutely proves my point more that anything else, eccentric candidates getting a few votes in local elections, also as someone else pointed our unionism does not always equate to Orangism.

Jellybaby1

Well, lookee here, I found one for ya:

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/heather-humphreys-1916-commemorations-belong-to-all-1.2159082

Jesus.

William F wrote: »

I thought the 12th was about religious liberty

Ever heard of the Penal Laws?

Del.Monte

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Well, lookee here, I found one for ya:

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/heather-humphreys-1916-commemorations-belong-to-all-1.2159082

In fairness, she comes from Presbyterian stock and we all know what a disloyal bunch they were - 1798 and all that.

Jellybaby1

Del.Monte wrote: »

In fairness, she comes from Presbyterian stock and we all know what a disloyal bunch they were - 1798 and all that.

A bit before my time!

Tordelback

I hail from a background which includes a large proportion of Church of Ireland relatives, and despite there being residual affection for the Royal Family, BHS and Marks & Spencer's* in the over-70s cohort I've never yet met a single southern CoI who would describe themselves as a unionist. I've heard stories of one guy alright, but he moved to London 20 years ago.

The idea of there being any kind of significant association between southern protestants and unionism in the current generations is just nonsense. The 12th means absolutely nothing here, despite the glib abandon with which the oh-so-hilarious slurs 'orangeman' and 'dry prod' drop from people's lips.

At the same time I doubt the SF vote is huge in the protestant community.



*All too common in Dubs of all faiths and none, in my experience.

I swindled the NSA

William F wrote: »

do Protestant Irish Republicans celebrate the 12th?

Given the choice of colour of the outer third of the Irish tricolour flag it is theoretically possible.

Given that some Catholics fought on the Williamite side (by some accounts with the blessing of no less than the Pope) in the Battle of the Boyne its even theoretically possible that such celebration would not necessairly be limited to Protestants.

However being neither a Protestant or a Republican it is not really for me to say.