Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

CIARAN_BOYLE

Sangre wrote: »

Jobs for the boys.

So not only does not the new coach not get to choose his coaching ticket, the ticket he gets is made up exclusively of local boys and/or ex-players. Hardly an ideal scenario if you want to come in and shake things up with your own coaching flavour on the team.

They are all short term appointments/promotions.

Sangre

Fogarty and Cullen aren't going anywhere. Girve will probably stay on as well depending on whether head coach is a forward's coach or not.

Heroditas

Sangre wrote: »

Fogarty and Cullen aren't going anywhere. Girve will probably stay on as well depending on whether head coach is a forward's coach or not.

And you are substantiating this how exactly?

the baby bull elephant

.ak wrote: »

I didn't even know he was still about.

He was over in Italy but he's been in Dublin the last two years coaching Mary's SCT.

Teferi

total former wrote: »

I dunno lads. Cullen, Fogarty, McQuilkin, Girve, Berne. All ex-players with no real coaching experience anywhere else.

Girve is a clear exception here. He's a very good, very consistent coach from what we have seen so far who I think is going to go far. I don't think it matters that he doesn't have experience elsewhere because he at least started learning the craft correctly, from the bottom up.

awec

It must surely be a point of frustration for Dempsey that while he has spent a few years learning his trade Leo Cullen appears to have retired and immediately missed out a few important steps in his coaching career and somehow has landed this presumably-temporary "head coach" title.

At least Dempsey has experience of being in charge of a team. Cullen doesn't.

Buer

awec wrote: »

It must surely be a point of frustration for Dempsey that while he has spent a few years learning his trade Leo Cullen appears to have retired and immediately missed out a few important steps in his coaching career and somehow has landed this presumably-temporary "head coach" title.

At least Dempsey has experience of being in charge of a team. Cullen doesn't.

I would readily believe that Dempsey isn't too hot on being a head coach. The same was rumoured of Jono Gibbes. With great power etc.

A lot of people, understandably, are much happier with a smaller remit and less pressure. Dempsey was never someone who courted publicity nor was particularly extroverted in his playing days. Considering he's Ireland's most capped full back and scored some of the most famous tries in our history, he kept a very low profile.

.ak

I think Dempsey probably is the most likely to make a good senior level coach out of all of them, but he's very pragmatic in his approach, he won't take on a job if he think it's too early for him. Careers die quickly when you do that.

awec

Yea that's fair enough, but how has Leo Cullen managed to leapfrog his way to being a first team coach immediately upon retirement?

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Yea that's fair enough, but how has Leo Cullen managed to leapfrog his way to being a first team coach immediately upon retirement?

Cullen was supposedly a quasi-coach for a while towards the end of his playing days in the same way Muller was with Munster, supposedly Ulster were interested in him making a similar move when he decided to call it a day as well.

EDIT: I mean Ulster above of course, I'll leave that in as a testament to my idiocy.

sydthebeat

Buer wrote: »

Why wouldn't Brown be able to arrive until after the RWC?

hes no longer contracted to Otago, but he may want to stay around for the ITM cup, seeing as its his brother Cory who was his replacement there... and for whom its his first head coach role.

interestingly cory was connachts elite PDO until december last

stephen_n

I wonder how long the interim period is going to last, if it's till after the RWC we can pretty much write this season off, as the new coach will have had no pre-season and no run into the season to implement his gameplan.

.ak

stephen_n wrote: »

I wonder how long the interim period is going to last, if it's till after the RWC we can pretty much write this season off, as the new coach will have had no pre-season and no run into the season to implement his gameplan.

TBH, as unpopular as this may sound, as soon as MOC left in/got fired in the manner he did this season was always going to be a write off. People don't seem to understand how hard it is to get the right coach in that short space of time, during a RWC no less!

vienne86

awec wrote: »

Yea that's fair enough, but how has Leo Cullen managed to leapfrog his way to being a first team coach immediately upon retirement?

I find that odd as well, and I am not sure I like this, no matter what role he had before he retired. Wouldn't mind seeing him head off somewhere for a while, but that doesn't look like happening anytime soon.

.ak

Yeah we're stuck with Leo be default and it's far from ideal, he should never have been given the forwards job so soon anyway. But sure listen, who knows, it could actually work out!

stephen_n

.ak wrote: »

TBH, as unpopular as this may sound, as soon as MOC left in/got fired in the manner he did this season was always going to be a write off. People don't seem to understand how hard it is to get the right coach in that short space of time, during a RWC no less!

Well there's a write off as in silverware and then something worse, as in qualification from ERC group and league position.

.ak

stephen_n wrote: »

Well there's a write off as in silverware and then something worse, as in qualification from ERC group and league position.

Yeah, it really depends on if we'll get a bit lucky in terms of other teams suffering from the rwc or not.

Tox56

.ak wrote: »

TBH, as unpopular as this may sound, as soon as MOC left in/got fired in the manner he did this season was always going to be a write off. People don't seem to understand how hard it is to get the right coach in that short space of time, during a RWC no less!

In fairness I think that was the consensus at the time it was announced unless they had someone lined up to replace him immediately, which clearly isnt the case. The fact this is a World Cup year is the only thing I could see keeping MOC there, because those periods are hard enough even with a coach who has been there a while. We will still field a decent team though so we might get away with it.

Buer

Tox56 wrote: »

In fairness I think that was the consensus at the time it was announced unless they had someone lined up to replace him immediately, which clearly isnt the case. The fact this is a World Cup year is the only thing I could see keeping MOC there, because those periods are hard enough even with a coach who has been there a while. We will still field a decent team though so we might get away with it.

It seems to me more and more likely that Murray Kinsella might have been somewhat correct when he said he understands that it was MOC who brought the idea of him leaving to the committee initially.

Leinster seem to have been caught cold going on the recruitment process to date.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

TBH, as unpopular as this may sound, as soon as MOC left in/got fired in the manner he did this season was always going to be a write off. People don't seem to understand how hard it is to get the right coach in that short space of time, during a RWC no less!

I don't think it mattered one way or another whether MOC stayed or not. This season was never going to be a successful one. We're missing too many players to international duty to make a serious go of the league and the Champions Cup pool is going to be a real doozie.

The only thing that makes sense is getting in Fogs and Girv for the interim period because these guys know the younger players well and there's a very good relationship there. Couple that with Leos knowledge of some of the senior guys who will be about during the RWC and it's probably as familiar a set-up as we could possibly get. What happens post RWC is up in the air, but if we can get our hands on a good coach in the first half of the season we could be looking at a positive second half of the season with a very positive 2016-17 after it.

If we're going to write off any season this is the one. And we may have a better pool of coaches to pick from post RWC (and post the SH season) than if MOC saw out his contract and we were on the look out 6 months later.

Buer

The thing is, if we're looking to hold off until after the RWC, what coaches are becoming available that:

a) We would be interested in and
b) Would be interested in us?

The only ones who might potentially tick those boxes are PSA, Eddie Jones and Lynn Howells (I really hope we're not interested in Howells). Jones is the only one I'd really be interested in given the variety of his coaching history and success he has enjoyed.

PSA is a curious one but comes with a lot of baggage from the last few years in terms of how he is perceived and overall hasn't been particularly successful since his early Sale days.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

I don't think it mattered one way or another whether MOC stayed or not. This season was never going to be a successful one. We're missing too many players to international duty to make a serious go of the league and the Champions Cup pool is going to be a real doozie.

The only thing that makes sense is getting in Fogs and Girv for the interim period because these guys know the younger players well and there's a very good relationship there. Couple that with Leos knowledge of some of the senior guys who will be about during the RWC and it's probably as familiar a set-up as we could possibly get. What happens post RWC is up in the air, but if we can get our hands on a good coach in the first half of the season we could be looking at a positive second half of the season with a very positive 2016-17 after it.

If we're going to write off any season this is the one. And we may have a better pool of coaches to pick from post RWC (and post the SH season) than if MOC saw out his contract and we were on the look out 6 months later.

I think it would've mattered, yes. There's a massive difference between a head coach of MOC's calibre and Leo Cullen.

Now, I'm not saying it would've worked out, but we would've been in a better predicament if Leo stays on as HC for the year.

Clearlier

Buer wrote: »

The thing is, if we're looking to hold off until after the RWC, what coaches are becoming available that:

a) We would be interested in and
b) Would be interested in us?

The only ones who might potentially tick those boxes are PSA, Eddie Jones and Lynn Howells (I really hope we're not interested in Howells). Jones is the only one I'd really be interested in given the variety of his coaching history and success he has enjoyed.

PSA is a curious one but comes with a lot of baggage from the last few years in terms of how he is perceived and overall hasn't been particularly successful since his early Sale days.

If we're waiting until after the RWC I would hope that it's because we're waiting to see which coaches are picked up by national teams after discarding their current managers. I'd hate for us to pick up a national manager who has just experienced failure. We need to be picking a relatively inexperienced innovative coach looking to make a name for themselves.

CatFromHue

I dunno if we're waiting but the players will be back after their holidays in 2 or 3 weeks so the coaches for them then need to be arranged.

Hagz

Surely they'll just be doing strength and conditioning though.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

The thing is, if we're looking to hold off until after the RWC, what coaches are becoming available that:

a) We would be interested in and
b) Would be interested in us?

The only ones who might potentially tick those boxes are PSA, Eddie Jones and Lynn Howells (I really hope we're not interested in Howells). Jones is the only one I'd really be interested in given the variety of his coaching history and success he has enjoyed.

PSA is a curious one but comes with a lot of baggage from the last few years in terms of how he is perceived and overall hasn't been particularly successful since his early Sale days.

What I mean is that we'd be looking at a SH coach who is finishing up around the same time as the RWC rather than a national coach.

.ak wrote: »

I think it would've mattered, yes. There's a massive difference between a head coach of MOC's calibre and Leo Cullen.

Now, I'm not saying it would've worked out, but we would've been in a better predicament if Leo stays on as HC for the year.

It's a bit of a gamble, but then it's always a gamble when you are looking for a new coach regardless of the circumstances. There may be a better list of candidates available from September-October time than there would be come January-February when we'd be looking to replace MOC. Not just because of their availability but also because of the availability of the post. They can start immediately. And despite what some will say the Leinster job is still a desirable one. MOC aside our previous 2 coaches have gone on to HC of a top 5 international side.

CatFromHue wrote: »

I dunno if we're waiting but the players will be back after their holidays in 2 or 3 weeks so the coaches for them then need to be arranged.

Depending on who we are looking at as well they may not be in a position to travel over at the moment. Brown for example wasn't going to be available to visit Dublin in the last few weeks. It's an awkward time to be looking really.

salmocab

when does the NPC finish in NZ and same for Currie cup

CatFromHue

Usually the end of October for the ITM I think

FrannoFan

How are people still saying Leinster got rid of MOC at the wrong time?when is the right time?waited till end of season and announced it.We still had a semi final and an (outside) chance of Rabo.Should they have announced it earlier with those to play? The right decision to remove him was taken-the timing was the best they had.

Fogarty seems an odd choice as scrum coach. It is all starting to look a little "jobs for the boys" Leo, Fogarty, Girve going to give a hand?

Interested Observer

FrannoFan wrote: »

How are people still saying Leinster got rid of MOC at the wrong time?when is the right time?waited till end of season and announced it.We still had a semi final and an (outside) chance of Rabo.Should they have announced it earlier with those to play? The right decision to remove him was taken-the timing was the best they had.

Fogarty seems an odd choice as scrum coach. It is all starting to look a little "jobs for the boys" Leo, Fogarty, Girve going to give a hand?

I've heard people talk quite highly of Fogarty, that he's a student if the game and makes a good coach. All anecdotal though.

My biggest concern is Cullen tbh. He can't possibly be ready for a top job like Leinster yet imo. I'm not sure we're going to get a new head coach this coming season.