Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

Buer

FrannoFan wrote: »

How are people still saying Leinster got rid of MOC at the wrong time?when is the right time?waited till end of season and announced it.We still had a semi final and an (outside) chance of Rabo.Should they have announced it earlier with those to play? The right decision to remove him was taken-the timing was the best they had.

When's the right time? Earlier than late May when most decent coaches have their next season sorted. They should have had the feelers out from early 2015 and pulled the trigger after the Toulon game if they were going to do it.

The way it has been handled so far makes me pretty convinced it wasn't all one way traffic especially since Leinster are now bringing back guys like McQuilkin on a short term basis to give them a dig out.

If it was a decision entirely by Leinster and MOC wanted to stay, they've handled it poorly.

.ak

FrannoFan wrote: »

How are people still saying Leinster got rid of MOC at the wrong time?when is the right time?waited till end of season and announced it.We still had a semi final and an (outside) chance of Rabo.Should they have announced it earlier with those to play? The right decision to remove him was taken-the timing was the best they had.

Fogarty seems an odd choice as scrum coach. It is all starting to look a little "jobs for the boys" Leo, Fogarty, Girve going to give a hand?

The right time would be to do the final year that way we'd have an entire season to track down a coach.

Interested Observer

.ak wrote: »

The right time would be to do the final year that way we'd have an entire season to track down a coach.

But we'd have another season of MOC in charge. I know which I think is the lesser of two evils anyway.

.ak

Interested Observer wrote: »

But we'd have another season of MOC in charge. I know which I think is the lesser of two evils anyway.

MOC>Cullen.

That's not opinion, that's just fact, until Cullen proves otherwise.

Cullen was in charge of our forwards last year...

For the record, I don't want to go down the route of a MOC debate, it's clear to everyone he didn't work out, and I'm not disagreeing with that, but he's a better coach than Leo Cullen is anyway, that's a fact, so I'm not sure how anyone can say Leo Cullen is the lesser of two evils.

Tox56

.ak wrote: »

The right time would be to do the final year that way we'd have an entire season to track down a coach.

IF Leinster wanted MOC gone I don't think reluctantly keeping him on another year as a dead man walking just to wait for another coach to become available would have been a good idea, and I doubt MOC himself would have wanted it either. In fact Leinster proposing something like that could have caused him to walk away for all we know

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

MOC>Cullen.

That's not opinion, that's just fact, until Cullen proves otherwise.

Cullen was in charge of our forwards last year...

For the record, I don't want to go down the route of a MOC debate, it's clear to everyone he didn't work out, and I'm not disagreeing with that, but he's a better coach than Leo Cullen is anyway, that's a fact, so I'm not sure how anyone can say Leo Cullen is the lesser of two evils.

You're assuming Leo will be HC for the season though. It looks like that isn't the case. Or at least it isn't the plan. If it was it would be officially announced. So the basis for your argument is a flawed one. I'd agree with you if that was Leinster were looking to do. They aren't.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

You're assuming Leo will be HC for the season though. It looks like that isn't the case. Or at least it isn't the plan. If it was it would be officially announced. So the basis for your argument is a flawed one. I'd agree with you if that was Leinster were looking to do. They aren't.

That's what the whole debate is centered around. My point is IF Leo ends up being hc for the entire season. This is all speculation.

.ak

Tox56 wrote: »

IF Leinster wanted MOC gone I don't think reluctantly keeping him on another year as a dead man walking just to wait for another coach to become available would have been a good idea, and I doubt MOC himself would have wanted it either. In fact Leinster proposing something like that could have caused him to walk away for all we know

I understand that, but if they didn't have anyone lined up and if they did ask hi to leave that's just stupid. You can keep him on without saying anything, or they could've just said "look Matt, things aren't good, but we'll give you a final season to change things around".

Anyway, time will tell... But if Leo ends up being the hc for the season then only two things could've happened; Leinster were extremely stupid and short sighted or MOC walked.

RichieRich89

.ak wrote: »

MOC>Cullen.

That's not opinion, that's just fact, until Cullen proves otherwise.

Cullen was in charge of our forwards last year...

For the record, I don't want to go down the route of a MOC debate, it's clear to everyone he didn't work out, and I'm not disagreeing with that, but he's a better coach than Leo Cullen is anyway, that's a fact, so I'm not sure how anyone can say Leo Cullen is the lesser of two evils.

Is he? Leinster will have the same forwards coach for next season as they had for last season, except with more experience. Defence shouldn't be a problem with McQuilkin returning. I'd prefer Dempsey's coaching of the backs to MOC's coaching of the backs. I'll hold off on making comparison's between Caputo and Fogarty until I see how the scrum goes next season but I hope there won't be a major drop off there. What exactly was MOC bringing to the table that this interim ticket isn't?

I'd still be fairly hopeful that Leinster are in the process of working something out with Deans. It looks as if they're trying to get in a backs-orientated head coach anyway. I think it's a positive that Leinster are prepared to play the long game and ensure they get the right man this time. Look on the bright side - more young players will get chances than if MOC had stayed and Leo will gain experience, which will be good if he stays on as forwards coach under whoever is our next head coach

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

I understand that, but if they didn't have anyone lined up and if they did ask hi to leave that's just stupid. You can keep him on without saying anything, or they could've just said "look Matt, things aren't good, but we'll give you a final season to change things around".

Anyway, time will tell... But if Leo ends up being the hc for the season then only two things could've happened; Leinster were extremely stupid and short sighted or MOC walked.

I'm still convinced it was a mutual decision. Leinster were in a serious rut. We were playing like drains and there was a definite rift forming in the camp. Jennos comments made that fairly clear. What Shaggy was predicting earlier in the season about a camp of first teamers and everyone else definitely seemed to be coming to pass I think. Another season of that, especially in light of the missing internationals, could have been very damaging to both Leinster and MOCs career. MOC was not the right man for the Leinster job and I think both he and the Leinster board accepted that.

From what I've heard Leinster were talking to other coaches earlier in the season, so it's not like they only just started the search the day after MOCs departure was announced. I'd say there was still an element of doubt though over whether they would be letting him go or not, especially with the way our Champions Cup campaign went. And the inability to provide assurances that a job would be available probably hampered the search. If I had to guess (and it's just a guess) I think it was the Treviso game that sealed it. The body language of a lot of the non-playing staff that day was very noticeable. It really did look like they knew the jig was up.

Teferi

What were Jennos comments again Molloy?

total former

Teferi wrote: »

What were Jennos comments again Molloy?

That some of the more recent additions to the squad expected to win trophies but didn't understand the hard work that was required to get there.

.ak

RichieRich89 wrote: »

Is he?

I don't know, one has over 15 years coaching experience with the following teams; Kubota, Brumbies, Australia A, Leicester and Leinster and the follow accolades; 3 Premiership titles and 1 Pro12.


The other has spent 1 year coaching at senior level as a forwards coach and did a pretty poor job at it.

iamjenko

total former wrote: »

That some of the more recent additions to the squad expected to win trophies but didn't understand the hard work that was required to get there.

And that some of the returning internationals were just phoning it in...

total former

iamjenko wrote: »

And that some of the returning internationals were just phoning it in...

When did he say that?

.ak

.ak wrote: »

I don't know, one has over 15 years coaching experience with the following teams; Kubota, Brumbies, Australia A, Leicester and Leinster and the follow accolades; 3 Premiership titles and 1 Pro12.


The other has spent 1 year coaching at senior level as a forwards coach and did a pretty poor job at it.

Get your fecking facts out of here.

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

When did he say that?

It was in the same interview. There were 2 distinct points. One of which the journo used direct quotes, i.e. the younger players not knowing the hard work required for the success, and the other that was summarised by the journo without direct quotes, i.e. that some internationals weren't putting as much in as they were for Ireland. There was some comment about how he wanted to see what he saw at Leicester where players fought just as hard for their club jersey as their national one.

Tox56

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm still convinced it was a mutual decision. Leinster were in a serious rut. We were playing like drains and there was a definite rift forming in the camp. Jennos comments made that fairly clear. What Shaggy was predicting earlier in the season about a camp of first teamers and everyone else definitely seemed to be coming to pass I think. Another season of that, especially in light of the missing internationals, could have been very damaging to both Leinster and MOCs career. MOC was not the right man for the Leinster job and I think both he and the Leinster board accepted that.

From what I've heard Leinster were talking to other coaches earlier in the season, so it's not like they only just started the search the day after MOCs departure was announced. I'd say there was still an element of doubt though over whether they would be letting him go or not, especially with the way our Champions Cup campaign went. And the inability to provide assurances that a job would be available probably hampered the search. If I had to guess (and it's just a guess) I think it was the Treviso game that sealed it. The body language of a lot of the non-playing staff that day was very noticeable. It really did look like they knew the jig was up.

I dont think his relationship with the IRFU was great either if that interview with Schmidt and Nucifora was anything to go by, the whole thing seemed pretty poisonous by that stage

ssaye2

From LF

Owen Finnegan just announced as Interim Strength and Conditioning Coach

Another poster said Leinster possibly looking at Luke Morahan post WC.

Heroditas

ssaye2 wrote: »

From LF

Owen Finnegan just announced as Interim Strength and Conditioning Coach

Another poster said Leinster possibly looking at Luke Morahan post WC.

I assume a different Finnegan to the player Owen Finegan.

Buer

ssaye2 wrote: »

From LF

Owen Finnegan just announced as Interim Strength and Conditioning Coach

Jayzus, ssaye, you swallowed that one without even chewing!

ssaye2

Buer wrote: »

Jayzus, ssaye, you swallowed that one without even chewing!

I did haha - I need a holiday

Heroditas

Buer wrote: »

Jayzus, ssaye, you swallowed that one without even chewing!

Hekenui will be the kicking coach.

total former

ssaye2 wrote: »

Owen Finnegan just announced as Interim Strength and Conditioning Coach

Exactly the sort of guy we need to show the youngsters the value of putting your shoulder to the wheel, doing the hard work and reaping the rewards.

padser

.ak wrote: »

MOC>Cullen.

That's not opinion, that's just fact, until Cullen proves otherwise.
:

Hhhhmmm, stating an opinion and then saying "that's just fact" doesn't actually make it any more factual. It's still an opinion.

For what it's worth, I agree with the opinion. But it's virtually impossible to prove factually who is a better coach....

For example, it's a fact that BOD is the highest scoring player in Irish Rugby history, it's a (widely held and rarely disputed) opinion that he is our greatest ever player.

.ak

padser wrote: »

Hhhhmmm, stating an opinion and then saying "that's just fact" doesn't actually make it any more factual. It's still an opinion.

For what it's worth, I agree with the opinion. But it's virtually impossible to prove factually who is a better coach....

For example, it's a fact that BOD is the highest scoring player in Irish Rugby history, it's a (widely held and rarely disputed) opinion that he is our greatest ever player.

It's a fact until Leo Cullen proves otherwise.

That's like saying, in my opinion, I'm a better Irish international than BOD.

Because my limited test experience doesn't allow you to form an opinion.

dub_skav

padser wrote: »

Hhhhmmm, stating an opinion and then saying "that's just fact" doesn't actually make it any more factual. It's still an opinion.

For what it's worth, I agree with the opinion. But it's virtually impossible to prove factually who is a better coach....

For example, it's a fact that BOD is the highest scoring player in Irish Rugby history, it's a (widely held and rarely disputed) opinion that he is our greatest ever player.

Bod is not the highest scoring player in Irish history.
It's a fact a pedant will always be along soon

mogwai81

I didn't take much notice at the time that neither Tadhg Beirne or Gavin Thornbury had there contracts renewed, probably due to the fact that D'arcy grabbed the headlines. I was always hopefull that one or both of these locks might kick on, Thornbury was probably the most likely due to his size.
Was it injuries ( i know both had there injury problems ) or a lack of ability that caused there release from the province?

irishbucsfan

This reminds me of that Brasseye quote. "Paedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with you and me. Now that's a scientific fact: there's no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact."

stephen_n

How is there even a debate over it, MOC did not fit with Leinster but to even try compare Leo to him is a fools errand. 1 very poor season as a forwards coach but Just because he's a Leinster playing legend, he gets a free pass. My biggest worry is that interim will turn out to be a season long trial.