Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

It was in the same interview. There were 2 distinct points. One of which the journo used direct quotes, i.e. the younger players not knowing the hard work required for the success, and the other that was summarised by the journo without direct quotes, i.e. that some internationals weren't putting as much in as they were for Ireland. There was some comment about how he wanted to see what he saw at Leicester where players fought just as hard for their club jersey as their national one.

Just on this, here's the article where Jenno actually (apparently) said that he wants to see the internationals work as hard as, if not harder, than the rookies. Which suggests he didn't think that was happening. So on the one hand he seems to suggest the internationals weren't working as hard as the young lads, but then on the other says the young lads need to work harder to put pressure on the internationals. It's hard to know what to make of it really, especially with the lack of quotes on the point regarding the internationals.

CatFromHue wrote: »

kingofthekong

Having a bit of a day dream about a future leinster back line of 9.Mcgrath 10.sexton 11.Adam Byrne 12.Farrell/Daly 13.Ringrose 14.Luke Fitz 15.kelleher , the talent coming through at Leinster is pretty decent.

Buer

kingofthekong wrote: »

Having a bit of a day dream about a future leinster back line of 9.Mcgrath 10.sexton 11.Adam Byrne 12.Farrell/Daly 13.Ringrose 14.Luke Fitz 15.kelleher , the talent coming through at Leinster is pretty decent.

To be honest, Ringrose and possibly Kelleher are the only two young players there I'd be confident of having a future with Leinster's first team at this point.

RichieRich89

.ak wrote: »

I don't know, one has over 15 years coaching experience with the following teams; Kubota, Brumbies, Australia A, Leicester and Leinster and the follow accolades; 3 Premiership titles and 1 Pro12.


The other has spent 1 year coaching at senior level as a forwards coach and did a pretty poor job at it.

On paper it seems like no contest, but MOC's experience of man-management wasn't doing much for him at Leinster. Apart from switching Bent back to his better position of loosehead the only things MOC brought to Leinster's forward play was holding jumpers up in the air to try to milk penalties and trying to push over the ball instead of hook in the scrum. What do we lose by not having MOC? Defence should be fine with McQuilkin there, and the back-play was rubbish under MOC, so it's good to have someone else take over that aspect of things.

Obviously we'll have to wait and see what happens but I'd be very hopeful that young backs will be trusted more under this regime, and this experience should stand to Leo - he'll be a better coach when our next head coach comes in. I can't understand how anyone could still want MOC in charge

kingofthekong

And thats a huge shame , wouldnt rule Adam Byrne out , playing very well in the recent sevens tournaments

The Lost Sheep

Buer wrote: »

To be honest, Ringrose and possibly Kelleher are the only two young players there I'd be confident of having a future with Leinster's first team at this point.

Would disagree with that. McGrath/Daly/Farrell/Byrne all very talented guys. Why would you not think any of those 4 wont make it as first team regulars?

Tox56

stephen_n wrote: »

How is there even a debate over it, MOC did not fit with Leinster but to even try compare Leo to him is a fools errand. 1 very poor season as a forwards coach but Just because he's a Leinster playing legend, he gets a free pass. My biggest worry is that interim will turn out to be a season long trial.

In fairness his first season has been almost universally panned, hes not really getting a free pass

.ak

RichieRich89 wrote: »

On paper it seems like no contest, but MOC's experience of man-management wasn't doing much for him at Leinster. Apart from switching Bent back to his better position of loosehead the only things MOC brought to Leinster's forward play was holding jumpers up in the air to try to milk penalties and trying to push over the ball instead of hook in the scrum. What do we lose by not having MOC? Defence should be fine with McQuilkin there, and the back-play was rubbish under MOC, so it's good to have someone else take over that aspect of things.

Obviously we'll have to wait and see what happens but I'd be very hopeful that young backs will be trusted more under this regime, and this experience should stand to Leo - he'll be a better coach when our next head coach comes in. I can't understand how anyone could still want MOC in charge

You're missing the point completely. You're trying to turn this into a 'what MOC did or didn't do' debate. That's not the point. The point is he's a better coach with a better track record than Leo.. If we're replacing MOC with Leo we're in trouble.

RichieRich89

.ak wrote: »

You're missing the point completely. You're trying to turn this into a 'what MOC did or didn't do' debate. That's not the point. The point is he's a better coach with a better track record than Leo.. If we're replacing MOC with Leo we're in trouble.

But we're not replacing MOC with Leo. MOC was the backs coach and the defence coach. We're replacing MOC with Dempsey and McQuilkin

.ak

RichieRich89 wrote: »

But we're not replacing MOC with Leo. MOC was the backs coach and the defence coach. We're replacing MOC with Dempsey and McQuilkin

MOC was the head coach. Leo is now the head coach. Their duties have no real bearing on the conversation. I'm interested to see how Dempsey and Kurt get on but that's not what's at hand here.

We're also replacing Caputo with Fogarty...

blackdog1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We're also replacing Caputo with Fogarty...

Caputo is no loss scrum wasn't great till Feek got a hold of the boys for the 6 nations. He was definitely a big step down from Feek and I'm praying fogs is a step up.

.ak

blackdog1 wrote: »

Caputo is no loss scrum wasn't great till Feek got a hold of the boys for the 6 nations. He was definitely a big step down from Feek and I'm praying fogs is a step up.

What? Caputo was probably the best coach in the current setup. Yes we had a creaky start but our scrum was a real weapon towards the end....

If Feek had such an impact then why couldn't Schmidt have an impact on our handling/skills/backplay etc?

total former

I thought Caputo did a great job.

Ah, f**k it, what's the point?

RichieRich89

.ak wrote: »

MOC was the head coach. Leo is now the head coach. Their duties have no real bearing on the conversation. I'm interested to see how Dempsey and Kurt get on but that's not what's at hand here.

We're gaining technically in my opinion, but as you say there's less experience of steering the ship from the head man. This doesn't bother me hugely. Like Kidney after the 60-0 loss to NZ, MOC's time had run out. It was time for change. It's not ideal but the situation is what it is

People busy rewriting history as usual!

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

You're missing the point completely. You're trying to turn this into a 'what MOC did or didn't do' debate. That's not the point. The point is he's a better coach with a better track record than Leo.. If we're replacing MOC with Leo we're in trouble.

MOC in April 2015 had a better track record than Joe Schmidt did in April 2011. It doesn't mean he was a better coach at those respective times.

Also we are not replacing MOC with Leo Cullen. Leo is filling in temporarily until a replacement is hired. So this whole conversation is pointless.

I agree re Caputo though. He was the best of the coaching set up and was doing a fine job with our scrum.

OldRio

To some MOC was like their first love. They just can't get over it. All their friends knew it would end in tears but they blinded themselves to the problems. They Hoped and prayed that things would get better alas it didn't.

Dust yourselves off. Move on. MOC has gone. True love could be around the corner.

Tox56

.ak wrote: »

What? Caputo was probably the best coach in the current setup. Yes we had a creaky start but our scrum was a real weapon towards the end....

If Feek had such an impact then why couldn't Schmidt have an impact on our handling/skills/backplay etc?

In defence of blackdog he does seem to know what he's talking about when it comes to the scrum (unless I'm confusing him with someone else). All 4 of our first choice props were with Ireland, while our representation in the backs was a lot lower. Not that I know how much difference a scrum coach actually makes in reality

thomond2006

Jobs for the boys?

total former

thomond2006 wrote: »

Jobs for the goys?

FYP

thomond2006

total former wrote: »

FYP

That's a pashunate FYP.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

MOC in April 2015 had a better track record than Joe Schmidt did in April 2011. It doesn't mean he was a better coach at those respective times.

Also we are not replacing MOC with Leo Cullen. Leo is filling in temporarily until a replacement is hired. So this whole conversation is pointless.

I agree re Caputo though. He was the best of the coaching set up and was doing a fine job with our scrum.

Sorry molloyjh I'm not comparing MOC to Schmidt. I'm not saying his accolades make him a fantastic coach. I'm saying it makes him a better coach than Leo Cullen is.

The topic of conversation isn't pointless as the conversation started with the speculation that Leo Cullen might take over for the entire year, it's unfortunately a possibility.

Not sure why you keep trying to kill the conversation? It's a valid point. As with most conversations here it's just speculation but IF Leo is the coach for the next season then it's step down IMO.

.ak

OldRio wrote: »

To some MOC was like their first love. They just can't get over it. All their friends knew it would end in tears but they blinded themselves to the problems. They Hoped and prayed that things would get better alas it didn't.

Dust yourselves off. Move on. MOC has gone. True love could be around the corner.

What are you actually talking about?

Interested Observer

.ak wrote: »

MOC>Cullen.

That's not opinion, that's just fact, until Cullen proves otherwise.

Cullen was in charge of our forwards last year...

For the record, I don't want to go down the route of a MOC debate, it's clear to everyone he didn't work out, and I'm not disagreeing with that, but he's a better coach than Leo Cullen is anyway, that's a fact, so I'm not sure how anyone can say Leo Cullen is the lesser of two evils.

Ak, please.

My post did not refer to Leo Cullen in any way shape or form. I didn't know we were having the discussion based on the premise the Cullen was going to be head coach for the season, something that would worry me deeply.

I'd much happier with the branch have just a summer to look for a new coach, as opposed to a full year with MOC in place again next season. That's what I was saying.

RichieRich89

.ak wrote: »

Sorry molloyjh I'm not comparing MOC to Schmidt. I'm not saying his accolades make him a fantastic coach. I'm saying it makes him a better coach than Leo Cullen is.

The topic of conversation isn't pointless as the conversation started with the speculation that Leo Cullen might take over for the entire year, it's unfortunately a possibility.

Not sure why you keep trying to kill the conversation? It's a valid point. As with most conversations here it's just speculation but IF Leo is the coach for the next season then it's step down IMO.

It makes him a more experienced coach, not necessarily a better one

.ak

Interested Observer wrote: »

Ak, please.

My post did not refer to Leo Cullen in any way shape or form. I didn't know we were having the discussion based on the premise the Cullen was going to be head coach for the season, something that would worry me deeply.

I'd much happier with the branch have just a summer to look for a new coach, as opposed to a full year with MOC in place again next season. That's what I was saying.

Then what two evils did you refer to? Because the conversation has always been the subject for the past few pages is whether or not letting MOC go without Leinster having a new coach lined up (ie they knew they'd have to use Leo if they couldn't find anyone) was a good idea or not.

RichieRich89 wrote: »

It makes him a more experienced coach, not necessarily a better one

So, Leo Cullen is a better coach than Matt o'connor?

Interested Observer

.ak wrote: »

Then what two evils did you refer to? Because the conversation has always been the subject for the past few pages is whether or not letting MOC go without Leinster having a new coach lined up (ie they knew they'd have to use Leo if they couldn't find anyone) was a good idea or not.

Well it's the last line in the post you quoted, and you've actually said it again in your own post.

1) Keeping MOC
2) Getting rid of him with out another coach immediately lined up.

And number 2 is the better option. Cullen taking the team for pre-season is fine, as far as I know they spend most of it doing physical/fitness training, I'm sure it's difficult enough to go wrong there.

I'm stating for the third time now: I don't want Cullen as Leinster head coach.

.ak

Interested Observer wrote: »

Well it's the last line in the post you quoted, and you've actually said it again in your own post.

1) Keeping MOC
2) Getting rid of him with out another coach immediately lined up.

And number 2 is the better option. Cullen taking the team for pre-season is fine, as far as I know they spend most of it doing physical/fitness training, I'm sure it's difficult enough to go wrong there.

I'm stating for the third time now: I don't want Cullen as Leinster head coach.

Obviously number 2 is the better option. But that's not what this discussion is about, if you go back a few pages the discussion started with this post:

.ak wrote: »

I think it would've mattered, yes. There's a massive difference between a head coach of MOC's calibre and Leo Cullen.

Now, I'm not saying it would've worked out, but we would've been in a better predicament if Leo stays on as HC for the year.

Listen, people seem to be getting their wires crossed so I'll just repeat my original point to clarify:

IF Leinster let MOC go without someone being lined up and we end up with Leo Cullen as hc for a year then I would say letting him go was a mistake. Because this coaching ticket currently is a step down.

Hopefully that's not the case, hopefully LR have someone lined up, and hopefully they're not just hoping too.

molloyjh

I'm very confused. Why exactly are we talking about a potential situation that isn't the plan? I mean if we're concerned that we won't find a replacement why not just give MOC a contract for life? Surely the risk re finding a coach will always exist when the position becomes vacant?

The discussion about Leo becoming a longer term head coach is pointless. Leinster set out to remove and replace MOC without having an alternative in place. At the time their options were simply:

1. Retain MOC in a role where he had the team playing like drains and where the "environment" was (seemingly) becoming a toxic one.

2. Remove him and look at options that were available at the time and ones that would become available post RWC and post SH season.

It was always a risk but then at this stage so was retaining MOC. As I said earlier if we were going to write off a season it may as well be this one. Plus there may be a greater chance of getting a SH coach around October time given the end of their season and the immediate availability of the post.

Leo has never been a part of Leinsters plan. Sure he might end up having to take the job but surely had MOC seen out his contract that was still a risk. Just one that was 9-10 months further down the line. Leinster chose to bite the bullet now. Possibly with the input of MOC himself. For me it was the right decision. And while it makes sense to argue the merits or demerits of the decision I'm not sure it makes much sense to argue the decision against a hypothetical that was never part of the plan. It might happen but so might a lot of things. Hell it may even happen that Leo turns out to be an excellent head coach.