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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

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    #362
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,754 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I'm not sure that it's be a terrible idea to try Mads at 10 this weekend. Jimmy has been in really, really poor form lately and persisting with a poor form option while giving nobody else a shot just seems a bit daft to me. I don't think Mads is a particularly good 10 but I would like to see what he can do at 10 compared to Gopperth at the moment, if for no other reason than to at least consider another option.


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    #363
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Madigan can't kick and is a scrum half.


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    #364
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I'm not sure that it's be a terrible idea to try Mads at 10 this weekend. Jimmy has been in really, really poor form lately and persisting with a poor form option while giving nobody else a shot just seems a bit daft to me. I don't think Mads is a particularly good 10 but I would like to see what he can do at 10 compared to Gopperth at the moment, if for no other reason than to at least consider another option.

    Yeah. I think O'Connor has been correct in going with Gopperth as his first-choice 10 but he has been woeful in recent weeks. Madigan is no silver bullet but it's worth a shot, and I think Madigan-D'Arcy-Te'o is a much better and more balanced midfield than Gopperth-Madigan-Te'o.


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    #365
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Te'o vs Bastareaud = Some mighty hits!


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    #366
    Sangre
    Registered Users Posts: 12,154 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    I would also like to see Madigan given a shot at 10 for next match if for no other reason than to give Gopps a bit of a kick up the arse.


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    #367
    blackdog1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,140 ✭✭✭blackdog1


    Sangre wrote: »
    I would also like to see Madigan given a shot at 10 for next match if for no other reason than to give Gopps a bit of a kick up the arse.

    When I see all the comments about Madigan ad into where he should play now and in the future, it reminds me of Thomas o'leary. ..was he a scrum half, a winger or a centre.....We all know what happened there and I'm sure if Madigan couldn't goal kick he might have gone the same way..


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    #368
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I just don't think Madigan is up to it at all as a 10, I'm not happy with Gopperth either but I'm more interested in Madigan converting to a 12 and fitting in there beside Sexton, so I'd keep him there for now. He's not going to do much better than Gopperth anyway.


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    #369
    Sangre
    Registered Users Posts: 12,154 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I just don't think Madigan is up to it at all as a 10, I'm not happy with Gopperth either but I'm more interested in Madigan converting to a 12 and fitting in there beside Sexton, so I'd keep him there for now. He's not going to do much better than Gopperth anyway.
    I agree in a general sense but at the moment he can't do that much worse and it would allow us to get a better 12 on the pitch while keeping Madigan's boot.


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    #370
    leakyboots
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    blackdog1 wrote: »
    When I see all the comments about Madigan ad into where he should play now and in the future, it reminds me of Thomas o'leary. ..was he a scrum half, a winger or a centre.....We all know what happened there and I'm sure if Madigan couldn't goal kick he might have gone the same way..

    I think some people underestimate the number and the extent of injuries that TOL has suffered


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    #371
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Sangre wrote: »
    I agree in a general sense but at the moment he can't do that much worse and it would allow us to get a better 12 on the pitch while keeping Madigan's boot.

    Except Madigan's decision making is all over the place, he can't bring the rest of the back line into play, he can't organise a back line during open play and his kicking from hand is even worse than Gopperth's. I don't think a better 12 is even remotely worth that, especially when we want Madigan to become that better 12 in future.


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    #372
    TommyOM
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    Can someone tell me just one thing MOC has improved in Leinster since coming in or even one thing that he hasn't made worse? Our defence has been terrible all season and yesterday was the icing on the cake. Our attack is completely blunt against any sort of decent opponent and our structure and general play is all over the shop.

    Matt O'Connor is a shambolic coach. He needs to go as soon as.


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    #373
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    Matt O'Connor coached Madigan into missing tackles.


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    #374
    TommyOM
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Matt O'Connor coached Madigan into missing tackles.

    The team have been missing tackles all season. Yesterday was shambolic.


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    #375
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    In fairness, yesterday was shambolic, you're dead right. I didn't see anything yesterday that makes me think this Leinster team is going anywhere. Nothing at all. It's like everyone just took the day off or something.


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    #376
    yosser hughes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭yosser hughes


    .ak wrote: »
    C'mon it's the Leinster thread, good (read: pretentious) coffee is an important topic.

    ... But anyway, we've established that now. What sort of team do people think we'll see take on the Dragons next week?

    Don't think it'll be as easy as people think, Dragons have been building up a bit of form at home but I think we'll send a strong squad as a demo run for Toulon.

    I used to remember having a good proper test (usually against Ulster) before the knock outs. Suppose we got that with Glasgow but I'd have preferred Glasgow this weekend and Dragons before the Q4....

    I think he should play his full strength team. i.e the team he plans to line up against Toulon. Whether he will or not I don't know.
    It's a risk, of course


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    #377
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    TommyOM wrote: »
    The team have been missing tackles all season. Yesterday was shambolic.

    Yes, it's clearly a MOC tactic to miss tackles.


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    #378
    Eponymous
    Registered Users Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭Eponymous


    .ak wrote: »
    Because I've watched him play 10 since his days as a FB for BR. More importantly, I've seen what he can do at 10 for Leinster over the past few seasons. There's a reason why MOC won't play him there - because he gave him all the opportunity to show what he could do last season.

    I really like Ian as a player and he's a top bloke, but until he learns how to read a game and how to chose his plays better and more in advance then he'll always be a poor 10. He relies far too much on his own off the cuff skillset and refuses to calm down and think about where the ball needs to go. He weighs up his options very poorly.
    The opportunity he had last season was 13 starts and of those Leinster won 11 - including the win away to Saints. You can hardly say he didn't do what he had to. In most of those matches, where Jimmy did come on to replace him, the result was already secured or Jimmy didn't make a difference.

    Of the two losses, I seem to recall that it wasn't just Madigan having a bad day at the office - the loss at home to Saints was a pretty shocking performance from all concerned. The other loss was away to Munster, but I have no recollection of that whatsoever!


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    #379
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Matt O'Connor: Hired by the IRFU to destroy Leinster Rugby.


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    #380
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,754 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Except Madigan's decision making is all over the place, he can't bring the rest of the back line into play, he can't organise a back line during open play and his kicking from hand is even worse than Gopperth's. I don't think a better 12 is even remotely worth that, especially when we want Madigan to become that better 12 in future.

    I'm on record more than once in saying that I don't like Mads as a 10. I'd agree with the points you make generally, but I do think that Gopperths form has to be considered here too. I don't think Mads would be much worse, and there is a potential for him to be better. That alone for me is worth 40 minutes against Dragons.

    I actually don't think Mads will be a long term answer at 12 either. In all reality I'm not sure where I see him fit into Leinster longer term. I want to see Mads at 10 this week because I want to see whether we actually do have an alternative option to an out of form Gopperth. What you're talking about is not replacing a guy who isn't playing great at 10 because the alternative option isn't great. Having a look at Mads only makes sense when, as it stands, there's very little between the two options. And when was the last time Mads played 10 for Leinster? January for 15 minutes against Castres? Even from a cover point of view it would make sense to give him some more time there now.


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    #381
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I'm on record more than once in saying that I don't like Mads as a 10. I'd agree with the points you make generally, but I do think that Gopperths form has to be considered here too. I don't think Mads would be much worse, and there is a potential for him to be better. That alone for me is worth 40 minutes against Dragons.

    I actually don't think Mads will be a long term answer at 12 either. In all reality I'm not sure where I see him fit into Leinster longer term. I want to see Mads at 10 this week because I want to see whether we actually do have an alternative option to an out of form Gopperth. What you're talking about is not replacing a guy who isn't playing great at 10 because the alternative option isn't great. Having a look at Mads only makes sense when, as it stands, there's very little between the two options. And when was the last time Mads played 10 for Leinster? January for 15 minutes against Castres? Even from a cover point of view it would make sense to give him some more time there now.
    It wouldn't surprise me if next year he is to Leinster what Johan Goosen will be to Racing: A bencher primarily covering 10 and 15.


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    #382
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Except Madigan's decision making is all over the place, he can't bring the rest of the back line into play, he can't organise a back line during open play and his kicking from hand is even worse than Gopperth's.

    Madigan's decision making ? Or MOC's ?

    I wouldnt criticise the way any of our squad are playing until we see them under a new coach. You cant blame the OH if the people out side him dont know what they are trying to do.
    Gopperth is also fundamentally a fine player I believe. I will be sorry to see him go. I think we might have seen him go very well under Michael or Joe, but he just drew a bum card here, and also got overly harsh criticism from the fans.


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    #383
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    TommyOM wrote: »
    Can someone tell me just one thing MOC has improved in Leinster since coming in or even one thing that he hasn't made worse? Our defence has been terrible all season and yesterday was the icing on the cake. Our attack is completely blunt against any sort of decent opponent and our structure and general play is all over the shop.

    Matt O'Connor is a shambolic coach. He needs to go as soon as.

    Good question. Has anyone an answer to an aspect of play that has even remained static in the last 2 years ? Or even as suggestion that something is on the road to improvement and might, at some reasonable time in the future be improved ?

    For me there is nothing. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Everything has gone backwards.


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    #384
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    You know that episode of Friends where Joey meets the encyclopaedia salesman and only buys the volume for "V", so all he wants to talk about is vivisection, vulcanised rubber and Vietnam? And then when the conversation moves away from that, he's utterly clueless and can't contribute anything?

    That's what this thread reminds me of.


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    #385
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    total former wrote: »
    You know that episode of Friends where Joey meets the encyclopaedia salesman and only buys the volume for "V", so all he wants to talk about is vivisection, vulcanised rubber and Vietnam? And then when the conversation moves away from that, he's utterly clueless and can't contribute anything?

    That's what this thread reminds me of.

    I suppose it shows the belief that it doesnt really matter how you shuffle around the players or who is available/injured. Its all the same. Deckchairs on the Titanic stuff. Mads or JGop, Fitz at 11 or 13, internationals available or away on Ireland duty, etc. It just doesnt make any difference.

    The core problem just has to be sorted.


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    #386
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,485 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »

    The core problem just has to be sorted.

    that our backs arent to the same standard that we had 3-4 years ago, yet we expect the same results?


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    #387
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    Madigan's decision making ? Or MOC's ?.

    Madigan's


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    #388
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    total former wrote: »
    You know that episode of Friends where Joey meets the encyclopaedia salesman and only buys the volume for "V", so all he wants to talk about is vivisection, vulcanised rubber and Vietnam? And then when the conversation moves away from that, he's utterly clueless and can't contribute anything?

    That's what this thread reminds me of.

    The vitriolic and venomous attacks on our very best must stop. I vehemently venerate our valiant and recently victorious coach.

    I venture that the verbiage visible in this very forum is vexatious, voluminous, violent and vivacious beyond compare.

    We, the victims of these vigorous and vulgar attacks from vultures seeking to constantly vilify our coach must vote with our voices, and speak up of his virtues!


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    #389
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,730 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    that our backs arent to the same standard that we had 3-4 years ago, yet we expect the same results?

    Of the current Leinster backs (half backs included), Fitzgerald and Kearney would be the only two who'd have realistic expectations of making it into a first choice Ulster back line.

    I know it's a bit of a random comparison, but I think it shows that the Leinster back line isn't necessarily that strong and there are quite a few average to good players and not that many great ones.


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    #390
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,152 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Just to put things in perspective

    There are only 5 starters (RK, Fitzgerald, Reddan, Toner, and Heaslip) from the 12/13 season last pool game who played in the last pool game this season


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    #391
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Just to put things in perspective

    There are only 5 starters (RK, Fitzgerald, Reddan, Toner, and Heaslip) from the 12/13 season last pool game who played in the last pool game this season

    Yeah, the levels of disruption have been massive and some posters here don't (IMO) take enough cognisance of that.

    The next few weeks offer a good opportunity for O'Connor, for the first time in ages, to keep the squad together and with only two first-choice players injured, I hope we'll see some improvements in continuity and cohesion as a result. A good win against the Dragons this weekend and a decent showing in Marseilles will build some confidence for the trip to Ravenhill.


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