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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

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    #3902
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    awec wrote: »
    Dawson's comments indicate Leinster expect him back.

    Ah yeah, I'm just talking shyte, but it's odd that Cheika has thrown the rule book out the window for a non-core player.


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    #3903
    LostArt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭LostArt


    total former wrote: »
    Ah yeah, I'm just talking shyte, but it's odd that Cheika has thrown the rule book out the window for a non-core player.
    Cheika rated him really highly at the Waratahs though


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    #3904
    Kiwi_knock
    Registered Users Posts: 7,462 ✭✭✭Kiwi_knock


    total former wrote: »
    Ah yeah, I'm just talking shyte, but it's odd that Cheika has thrown the rule book out the window for a non-core player.

    I don't think he is non-core for Cheika though, he is one of his favourite players. When Douglas was continually being linked with a return to Australia a few months ago, Cheika did say that Douglas was the best Australian second row. Cheika isn't bringing him back as a squad player, I say he is looking to partner him with Skelton.


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    #3905
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    LostArt wrote: »
    Cheika rated him really highly at the Waratahs though
    Kiwi_knock wrote: »
    I don't think he is non-core for Cheika though, he is one of his favourite players. When Douglas was continually being linked with a return to Australia a few months ago, Cheika did say that Douglas was the best Australian second row. Cheika isn't bringing him back as a squad player, I say he is looking to partner him with Skelton.

    It's more that Cheika was allowed to pick him that I find interesting.

    The ARU have been fighting for years to keep their guys at home, now they've just given up on it? It's an odd one.


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    #3906
    Kiwi_knock
    Registered Users Posts: 7,462 ✭✭✭Kiwi_knock


    total former wrote: »
    It's more that Cheika was allowed to pick him that I find interesting.

    The ARU have been fighting for years to keep their guys at home, now they've just given up on it? It's an odd one.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Cheika was issuing ultimatums to the ARU. The ARU were criticised for not backing McKenzie over the texting episode so are probably doing their most to go along with Cheika's wishes.


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    #3907
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    Kiwi_knock wrote: »
    I wouldn't be surprised if Cheika was issuing ultimatums to the ARU. The ARU were criticised for not backing McKenzie over the texting episode so are probably doing their most to go along with Cheika's wishes.

    Hopefully.

    From a Leinster perspective, if he makes the squad for the 4N and the World Cup, he'll be wrecked again next season. Not ideal.

    If he comes back...


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    #3908
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    While clubs cannot block players under World Rugby regulations*, I'm sure players like Douglas are signed on the "understanding" that they are done with international rugby while there. The only benefit to Leinster here is if Douglas is the star of the tournament and therefore helps Leinster's profile.

    *Although I read on PR that Andries Bekker's Japanese club stopped him from joining the SA squad...


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    #3909
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    While clubs cannot block players under World Rugby regulations*, I'm sure players like Douglas are signed on the "understanding" that they are done with international rugby while there. The only benefit to Leinster here is if Douglas is the star of the tournament and therefore helps Leinster's profile.

    *Although I read on PR that Andries Bekker's Japanese club stopped him from joining the SA squad...


    We should send Cheika a few videos of his performances for Leinster...

    While I wouldn't want Leinster to stop someone playing in the RWCI'll still be very disappointed if he does go. I thought that with a proper pre-season this year that he would go really well for Leinster and be a cornerstone of the team during the world cup.


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    #3910
    Zuffer
    Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭Zuffer


    The calling up of Douglas to the training sqaud is mainly bad for Leinster.

    I would not like Leinster to interfere in any way with an international's prospects, so Leinster's statement hits all the right notes for me.

    I don't see Australia modifying their call up criteria again before the world cup. However, I'd guess that Douglas could become eligible to be picked for the final squad by breaking his Leinster contract and stating his intent to return to the southern hemisphere after the world cup. Hence Easterby's comments about expecting Douglas back to Leinster.

    I don't think Douglas is going to make the final squad, so all this will achieve is to take him out of the Leinster pre-season environment, and disrupt his preparation for next season.


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    #3911
    smiley_face
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭smiley_face


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Time is running out for Madigan at Leinster, with players coming through who can potentially play better at 10 and 12, if he doesn't cement his place somewhere in the team this season, he'll be bench warming a lot and that won't do anything for his international hopes.

    I'm inclined to agree with this point.
    Does anyone think it's possible that Madigan will not make the 31 for the RWC and be available for Leinster?
    He'd have a chance to impress if he had a few months as Leinster's 1st choice 10 during the RWC.
    If for the RWC one of D'Arcy/Reid/Cave/Fitzgerald is selected as Inside centre cover and Jackson is selected as 10 cover, then there'd be no need for a 3rd choice replacement for 10 and 12 in the final squad of 31 I would think.
    I'd be interested to see him play 10 for Leinster for a few months to see if he could impress with his kicking from hand and game management.
    If he performed well you never know what could happen; Sexton could pick up an injury in the RWC allowing Madigan to continue as 1st choice 10 for Leinster, and he could possibly get ahead of Jackson for Irish team selection for the 6 Nations.
    (Keatley would need to play out of his skin to get back into the Irish setup, and in my opinion Tyler Bleyendaal is looking likely to become Munster's 1st choice 10 for the season anyway.)


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    #3912
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    No, I'd be very surprised to see Madigan miss out on the RWC.


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    #3913
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I could very easily see the reasoning for neither Madigan going or Jones going for example, I'm not sure I'd bring either myself, but it would completely fly in the face of all evidence of selection we have thus far. Madigan is going.


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    #3914
    smiley_face
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭smiley_face


    total former wrote: »
    No, I'd be very surprised to see Madigan miss out on the RWC.
    Then not select either of Reid or D'Arcy?
    Cave and Fitzgerald would still have a chance though covering other positions.
    Strikes me as odd bringing Reid and D'Arcy into the training camp at all then.
    Would have thought it would be Jackson or Madigan, and Reid/D'arcy or Cave.
    Leaves Reid free for Leinster though.


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    #3915
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    total former wrote: »
    No, I'd be very surprised to see Madigan miss out on the RWC.

    There is no way he'd miss out. You need 3 flyhalves. If Madigan doesn't go as the 3rd flyhalf, please name me an alternative in the squad selected by Schmidt? He's turned out overall to be fairly underwhelming, but his goalkicking is class, he covers a few positions off the bench, and he seems to play better in green than blue.

    I'd bet my house on his name being in the 31 barring injury or a complete meltdown in the warmup matches. 10 is one of least interesting spots to debate for ireland i would have thought.


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    #3916
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,802 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Question that may have been discussed here already, I don't know, but assuming Sexton and Madigan both travel and given Gopperth is away to Wasps, who starts at 10 for you during the WC? I'm hoping it's Byrne as I think that kid just looks to the manor born (albeit at a significantly lower level than Pro 12). Is there anyone else? Is Reid exclusively a 12 these days or can he play 10 as well?

    Also is Ringrose likely to feature during the WC? I suppose Te'o will be there and if he isn't starting at 10 then Reid will presumably be at 12 (not sure what the craic is with D'Arcy if he doesn't make the WC squad, will he still be available for Leinster or will he just retire?).

    Edit - a quick scan of the last 4 or 5 pages suggests the out half question may have been answered somewhere already!!!


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    #3917
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Reid is most definitely just a 12 and fairly certain D'Arcy has played his last game for Leinster.


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    #3918
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,802 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Reid is most definitely just a 12 and fairly certain D'Arcy has played his last game for Leinster.

    Ah, I thought he could play 10 as well.

    So who starts at 10 then? Byrne? Someone else that I've completely forgotten about?


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    #3919
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    bilston wrote: »
    Ah, I thought he could play 10 as well.

    So who starts at 10 then? Byrne? Someone else that I've completely forgotten about?

    Cathal Marsh is next in line, then Byrne. Reid has a fair amount of experience at 10 from his youth but none at senior level, Crosbie likewise.

    Then there's Nacewa...


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    #3920
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    total former wrote: »
    Cathal Marsh is next in line, then Byrne. Reid has a fair amount of experience at 10 from his youth but none at senior level, Crosbie likewise.

    Then there's Nacewa...

    Last time Reid played 10 (AFAIK) was that B&I Cup semi-final a few years back against Munster and he was very poor. Definitely just a 12 and hopefully he gets a good run at it this season.


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    #3921
    Zynks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    Zuffer wrote: »
    ...
    I don't see Australia modifying their call up criteria again before the world cup. However, I'd guess that Douglas could become eligible to be picked for the final squad by breaking his Leinster contract and stating his intent to return to the southern hemisphere after the world cup. Hence Easterby's comments about expecting Douglas back to Leinster.....

    What could be the consequences for breaking his contract? It can't be as easy as walking out the door.


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    #3922
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,157 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I think Sonny Bill might have done something like that but he moved from League to Union.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/nrl/dogs-still-bitter-at-sonny-bill-williams-walkout/story-fnca0von-1226613606947

    I'm not sure if you'd be able to do that in Union to Union though.


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    #3923
    Sangre
    Registered Users Posts: 12,169 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    Zynks wrote: »
    What could be the consequences for breaking his contract? It can't be as easy as walking out the door.
    Depends on the terms of the contact but in reality not much, particulary if KD has relocated to Oz. Obviously there would be reputational consequences to KD for walking away mid-contract. (I am assuming World Rugby doesn't ban players who breach contract (or some simliar restriction).)


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    #3924
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    Sangre wrote: »
    Depends on the terms of the contact but in reality not much, particulary if KD has relocated to Oz. Obviously there would be reputational consequences to KD for walking away mid-contract. (I am assuming World Rugby doesn't ban players who breach contract (or some simliar restriction).)

    It would depend how hard Leinster want to push it. I'd imagine they could stop him playing in all IRB-sanctioned competitions very easily, i.e. no World Cup for Kane and no Super Rugby either.

    He can't just walk off into the sunset.


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    #3925
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    My suspicion on the KD thing is he wants to leave. It's very hard to keep a guy on the books if he's not happy. However, I think LR and AU came to an agreement to let him play for the Wallabies to keep him sweet and keep him in LR. Maybe a case of 'Go and try your hand at test footy again, if you're still not happy with that then we'll talk again'.


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    #3926
    LostArt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭LostArt


    If it's true that his missus is pregnant then yeah he probably does want to go home and will force it through eventually.


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    #3927
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm operating on the basis that Douglas is gone from Leinster. Leinster won't release him out of the goodness of their hearts but the media is saying the reds next season are looking for him to replace Horwell and I heard during the year that he wasn't settling in great.

    Leinster will want some form of compensation to release him from his contract but I'd be confident that we won't see him in blue again. Easterby isn't going to say anything other than we expect him back until whatever deal may be achievable is done.

    I think the fact that we possibly look overstocked with locks with the arrival of Kearney is an indicator that Leinster saw this coming but are letting it play out naturally.

    Douglas could end up teaming up with MOC with the reds next season!


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    #3928
    Sangre
    Registered Users Posts: 12,169 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    total former wrote: »
    It would depend how hard Leinster want to push it. I'd imagine they could stop him playing in all IRB-sanctioned competitions very easily, i.e. no World Cup for Kane and no Super Rugby either.

    He can't just walk off into the sunset.
    What allows them to do this? Genuine question. My post ignored this possibility and just tried to talk about the terms of contract.

    In an employee context, what an emlpoyer can legally do, and what it will actually do, are two very different things.


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    #3929
    colster
    Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭colster


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'm operating on the basis that Douglas is gone from Leinster. Leinster won't release him out of the goodness of their hearts but the media is saying the reds next season are looking for him to replace Horwell and I heard during the year that he wasn't settling in great.

    Leinster will want some form of compensation to release him from his contract but I'd be confident that we won't see him in blue again. Easterby isn't going to say anything other than we expect him back until whatever deal may be achievable is done.

    I think the fact that we possibly look overstocked with locks with the arrival of Kearney is an indicator that Leinster saw this coming but are letting it play out naturally.

    Douglas could end up teaming up with MOC with the reds next season!

    How are Leinster over-stocked with locks? If Douglas goes they only have 3 senior locks?

    Correction: Actually would leave 4 senior locks in Toner, McCarthy, Denton and Kearney


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    #3930
    Sangre
    Registered Users Posts: 12,169 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    colster wrote: »
    How are Leinster over-stocked with locks? If Douglas goes they only have 3 senior locks?
    Yes, with one a constant fixture on the Irish team and the other (McCarthy) slightly injury prone at the moment.


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    #3931
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    Sangre wrote: »
    What allows them to do this? Genuine question. My post ignored this possibility and just tried to talk about the terms of contract.

    In an employee context, what an emlpoyer can legally do, and what it will actually do, are two very different things.

    Yeah, from that perspective he can sign an employment contract with the ARU and Leinster are never going to pursue him through the courts, but World Rugby regulations would prevent him from actually playing. He'll need Leinster's agreement to any move.

    Edit: World Rugby Regulation 4.6.4
    A Player’s Current Union shall be entitled to refuse to give its consent to the issue of a Clearance if the Player concerned has not fulfilled any of his obligations under the terms of his contract with his Current Union, Rugby Body or Club.


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