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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

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    #392
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    Madigan's decision making ? Or MOC's ?

    I wouldnt criticise the way any of our squad are playing until we see them under a new coach.

    I've seen him play under several coaches. It's Madigan's decision making.


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    #393
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Eponymous wrote: »
    The opportunity he had last season was 13 starts and of those Leinster won 11 - including the win away to Saints. You can hardly say he didn't do what he had to. In most of those matches, where Jimmy did come on to replace him, the result was already secured or Jimmy didn't make a difference.

    Of the two losses, I seem to recall that it wasn't just Madigan having a bad day at the office - the loss at home to Saints was a pretty shocking performance from all concerned. The other loss was away to Munster, but I have no recollection of that whatsoever!

    I think that's petty poor use of stats. We all know last season Gopperth was the better 10, even if it was marginal. Madigan really struggled. Just because the team won doesn't mean the 10 played well.


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    #394
    Eponymous
    Registered Users Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭Eponymous


    .ak wrote: »
    I think that's petty poor use of stats. We all know last season Gopperth was the better 10, even if it was marginal. Madigan really struggled. Just because the team won doesn't mean the 10 played well.
    I'm fully aware that it's not great use of stats however the other point I made in that paragraph is where JG replaced him it was generally late in the game. When Madigan came off the bench, it was usually to replace a back. IF IM wasn't playing according to the gameplan, surely he'd be called ashore sooner?


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    #395
    TommyOM
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    total former wrote: »
    You know that episode of Friends where Joey meets the encyclopaedia salesman and only buys the volume for "V", so all he wants to talk about is vivisection, vulcanised rubber and Vietnam? And then when the conversation moves away from that, he's utterly clueless and can't contribute anything?

    That's what this thread reminds me of.

    What a sneery condescending post.


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    #396
    TommyOM
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes, it's clearly a MOC tactic to miss tackles.

    From the looks of things you believe that the head coach has absolutely no impact on the way the team plays.


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    #397
    TommyOM
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    total former wrote: »
    Yeah, the levels of disruption have been massive and some posters here don't (IMO) take enough cognisance of that.

    The next few weeks offer a good opportunity for O'Connor, for the first time in ages, to keep the squad together and with only two first-choice players injured, I hope we'll see some improvements in continuity and cohesion as a result. A good win against the Dragons this weekend and a decent showing in Marseilles will build some confidence for the trip to Ravenhill.

    Heard it all before. Hes coming to the end of two seasons now and Leinster have gone backwards in every single department.

    Posters like IBF have done a good job in creating a narrative which implies that only the less knowledgable rugby fans criticize MOC and that he has all the inside scoop. Some posters are now ignoring every single poor Leinster performance. Give me one excellent Leinster performance since Northampton.


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    #398
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    TommyOM wrote: »
    From the looks of things you believe that the head coach has absolutely no impact on the way the team plays.

    He certainly doesn't miss tackles. From the looks of things, you think that he was directly responsible for porous defence on the weekend. He could only be directly responsible if he'd walked onto the pitch, moved Madigan out of position, and then told him not to make the tackles.


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    #399
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,592 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    to be fair a coach can be somewhat accused of 'missing tackles' if he sets his team out to tackle in a certain manner which would increase the number of slipped tackles ie high rugby league style, which we have been doing more under MOC.


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    #400
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    It's the coach and the player. When a player just misses a tackle it's absolutely his fault, that's a basic thing you would imagine and I can't imagine too much time is spent on the training pitch teaching players how to tackle someone who runs down their channel. Bringing a player to ground is something you'd imagine any professional player is more than adequate at.

    If a player is caught out of position because he doesn't know where to stand then that's on the player and the coach. I think the defensive problems at Leinster recently have been a combination of both, but there were certainly plenty of instances of players just missing tackles that they absolutely should be making.


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    #401
    TommyOM
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    Deleted User wrote: »
    He certainly doesn't miss tackles. From the looks of things, you think that he was directly responsible for porous defence on the weekend. He could only be directly responsible if he'd walked onto the pitch, moved Madigan out of position, and then told him not to make the tackles.

    Come on emmet, this wasn't a once off. The team's tackling has been abysmal all season.

    If MOC isn't responsible for the teams performances can you tell me who is? The players are to take all the blame are they?


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    #402
    TommyOM
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    awec wrote: »
    If a player is caught out of position because he doesn't know where to stand then that's on the player and the coach. I think the defensive problems at Leinster recently have been a combination of both, but there were certainly plenty of instances of players just missing tackles that they absolutely should be making.

    And from what I've seen its quite clear that the players are unsure of what they are supposed to be doing at any given time.


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    #403
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,157 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    TommyOM wrote: »
    Heard it all before. Hes coming to the end of two seasons now and Leinster have gone backwards in every single department.

    Posters like IBF have done a good job in creating a narrative which implies that only the less knowledgable rugby fans criticize MOC and that he has all the inside scoop. Some posters are now ignoring every single poor Leinster performance. Give me one excellent Leinster performance since Northampton.

    The team may have gone backwards but it's not just to do with the coach though. We just don't have the players we used to have so the problems with the team can't be put squarely on the coaching ticket's shoulders.


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    #404
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    There are systematic errors which are a result of poor preparation, instruction and communication. These can be attributed more to a coach than a player.

    Then there are individual errors where a player physically fails to engage the carrier correctly to bring him to the ground. These can be attributed more to a player than a coach.

    We had both on Saturday. Ian Madigan's two missed tackles in the build up to George Ford's try were individual errors, for example. 21 minutes onwards in the below.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoMV6V9D6jw

    No rational argument can be made to hang MOC on those. There are plenty of other incidents in the game where people can do that, however.


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    #405
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    TommyOM wrote: »
    Come on emmet, this wasn't a once off. The team's tackling has been abysmal all season.

    If MOC isn't responsible for the teams performances can you tell me who is? The players are to take all the blame are they?

    Has it?

    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/237361.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/other/rugby/match/237139.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/237185.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/237167.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233327.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/rabodirect-pro12-2013-14/rugby/match/191521.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233409.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233205.html

    Seems to be pretty decent across all those games.

    Perhaps some confirmation bias?


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    #406
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    Buer wrote: »
    There are systematic errors which are a result of poor preparation, instruction and communication. These can be attributed more to a coach than a player.

    Then there are individual errors where a player physically fails to engage the carrier correctly to bring him to the ground. These can be attributed more to a player than a coach.

    We had both on Saturday. Ian Madigan's two missed tackles in the build up to George Ford's try were individual errors, for example. 21 minutes onwards in the below.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoMV6V9D6jw

    No rational argument can be made to hang MOC on those. There are plenty of other incidents in the game where people can do that, however.

    Agreed. 100%. Who wants to talk about them?


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    #407
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,157 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Buer wrote: »
    There are systematic errors which are a result of poor preparation, instruction and communication. These can be attributed more to a coach than a player.

    Then there are individual errors where a player physically fails to engage the carrier correctly to bring him to the ground. These can be attributed more to a player than a coach.

    We had both on Saturday. Ian Madigan's two missed tackles in the build up to George Ford's try were individual errors, for example. 21 minutes onwards in the below.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoMV6V9D6jw

    No rational argument can be made to hang MOC on those. There are plenty of other incidents in the game where people can do that, however.

    Jeez that's a right horror show there.

    Even RK was got by far too easily


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    #408
    padser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭padser


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    He certainly doesn't miss tackles. From the looks of things, you think that he was directly responsible for porous defence on the weekend. He could only be directly responsible if he'd walked onto the pitch, moved Madigan out of position, and then told him not to make the tackles.

    Ah, here. That's a bit disingenuous.

    In the medium and long term a coach can absolutely be directly responsible for tackles being missed. I can think of three ways that would be the case

    1) setting up systems that have the wrong people in the wrong place
    2) mandating a team consistently attempts to tackle high on players who have huge strength or savage hand offs
    3) not coaching players in tackling by neglecting tackling drills for months or years on end

    If you have a group of players who used to have a very low ratio of missed tackles and that ratio suddenly and consistently becomes statistically significantly higher (I don't know this is the case, I didn't do the maths) then you need to ask the question, what changed???

    Maybe it's stuff outside MoCs control (eg maybe BOD / Darcy had such an effect on everyone else's positioning that just losing them is causing this. Maybe it isn't stuff outside his control.

    Suggesting that he couldn't possibly be responsible for repeated tackling failures feels like an unreasonable position though


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    #409
    matthew8
    Registered Users Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Has it?

    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/237361.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/other/rugby/match/237139.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/237185.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/237167.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233327.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/rabodirect-pro12-2013-14/rugby/match/191521.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233409.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233205.html

    Seems to be pretty decent across all those games.

    Perhaps some confirmation bias?

    How is that pretty decent? One of those games is from last season, the team missed 27 tackles in the Wasps home game, 28 tackles in Munster away and 30 tackles home to Glasgow. Tackling was brutal in those games and it's a bit rich to accuse someone else of confirmation bias if you're going to throw up those games as an example of good tackling.


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    #410
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    matthew8 wrote: »
    How is that pretty decent? One of those games is from last season, the team missed 27 tackles in the Wasps home game, 28 tackles in Munster away and 30 tackles home to Glasgow. Tackling was brutal in those games and it's a bit rich to accuse someone else of confirmation bias if you're going to throw up those games as an example of good tackling.

    meh

    80%+ completion rate, similar to the opponents in all games.

    Perhaps my understanding of the term 'abysmal' is different from yours or the OPs? Because all I was pointing out was that it wasn't abysmal. Pretty decent by my estimation really.


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    #411
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    padser wrote: »
    1) setting up systems that have the wrong people in the wrong place
    2) mandating a team consistently attempts to tackle high on players who have huge strength or savage hand offs
    3) not coaching players in tackling by neglecting tackling drills for months or years on end

    Are any of these true? Is there any slight indication any of these points are remotely close to the truth?

    Because if there isn't (hint), discussing it is a waste of time.


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    #412
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    padser wrote: »
    Ah, here. That's a bit disingenuous.

    In the medium and long term a coach can absolutely be directly responsible for tackles being missed. I can think of three ways that would be the case

    1) setting up systems that have the wrong people in the wrong place
    2) mandating a team consistently attempts to tackle high on players who have huge strength or savage hand offs
    3) not coaching players in tackling by neglecting tackling drills for months or years on end

    If you have a group of players who used to have a very low ratio of missed tackles and that ratio suddenly and consistently becomes statistically significantly higher (I don't know this is the case, I didn't do the maths) then you need to ask the question, what changed???

    Maybe it's stuff outside MoCs control (eg maybe BOD / Darcy had such an effect on everyone else's positioning that just losing them is causing this. Maybe it isn't stuff outside his control.

    Suggesting that he couldn't possibly be responsible for repeated tackling failures feels like an unreasonable position though

    Okay, do you think any of 1/2 or 3 apply to the current situation? I know theoretically a team's tactics can lead to high missed tackle count (Henshaw in 6N), but are any of those applicable to Leinster this season?


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    #413
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    TommyOM wrote: »
    Posters like IBF have done a good job in creating a narrative which implies that only the less knowledgable rugby fans criticize MOC and that he has all the inside scoop. Some posters are now ignoring every single poor Leinster performance. Give me one excellent Leinster performance since Northampton.

    If given a choice of sharing an opinion with professional rugby players who are directly in contact with the environment, including the likes of Brian O'Driscoll, or you, I'm perfectly happy with which side of the table I've ended up on, cheers :pac:


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    #414
    matthew8
    Registered Users Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    Deleted User wrote: »
    meh

    80%+ completion rate, similar to the opponents in all games.

    Perhaps my understanding of the term 'abysmal' is different from yours or the OPs? Because all I was pointing out was that it wasn't abysmal. Pretty decent by my estimation really.

    Whatever about the Wasps game, where we struggled with Hughes and Johnson and Fanning let Wade get around him though we did front up when they got closer to our line, you can't have watched the Glasgow and Munster matches and thought the tackling was decent. Very poor tackling was directly responsible for Glasgow's and Munster's first 3 tries.


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    #415
    Josie Early Bin
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Early Bin


    matthew8 wrote: »
    Whatever about the Wasps game, where we struggled with Hughes and Johnson and Fanning let Wade get around him though we did front up when they got closer to our line, you can't have watched the Glasgow and Munster matches and thought the tackling was decent. Very poor tackling was directly responsible for Glasgow's and Munster's first 3 tries.

    I just pulled the 'big games' and plonked them on the thread. No cherry picking.
    Is there an over-riding trend of abysmal tackling? That was the point I was countering.

    I don't think there is.


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    #416
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    to be fair a coach can be somewhat accused of 'missing tackles' if he sets his team out to tackle in a certain manner which would increase the number of slipped tackles ie high rugby league style, which we have been doing more under MOC.

    Hrmm, not quite sure I follow what you mean?

    I could certainly agree that a coach who sets up a defensive pattern (i.e; line movement and recognising attackers and moving around to deal with that, i.e shifting a lock back into towards the ruck and a back out)... but I don't get what you mean by setting up to tackle in a manner that would mean we'd miss tackles... Do you mean he's asking them to tackle high?

    We certainly haven't been using a league style defence anyway...


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    #417
    Greyian
    Registered Users Posts: 983 ✭✭✭Greyian


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Has it?

    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/237361.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/other/rugby/match/237139.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/237185.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/237167.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233327.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/rabodirect-pro12-2013-14/rugby/match/191521.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233409.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233205.html

    Seems to be pretty decent across all those games.

    Perhaps some confirmation bias?

    Interestingly, Leinster's tackle success rate was lower than their opposition in every single one of those games.

    80% success rate in the home game against Wasps is not pretty decent.
    85% in the home game against Munster (which was actually last season, the week before the QF against Toulon) isn't great. 83% against Glasgow isn't great either.

    Our defence has been susceptible at times, and in a number of cases it has seemed to be as a result of the defensive system, as opposed to individual errors (the first 20-30 minutes of the away game in Castres last season when we were tackling high and our line was getting broken at ease being the most striking example).

    It's all well and good for people to say we don't have as good a backline as we did 3, 4, 5 years ago. That's true, we don't. Comparing a Madigan-T'eo centre partnership to an O'Driscoll-D'Arcy partnership is laughable, because that was a ludicrously talented pair of centres. But we still have a backline with multiple 6 Nations winners in it. While it's unreasonable to expect to see it hitting the heights of years gone-by, the problem is that we've been absolutely awful for large chunks of the season. In attack, our entire playbook seems to basically be throwing the ball to the wing as quickly as possible, without fixing a single defender along the way. Or, having the 12/13 bosh it up the middle (which is, if we're playing Madigan at 12, a terrible tactic, because he's not very big at all), with no attempts to target gaps in the defense, find an offload etc.

    If we didn't have Madigan's boot, we wouldn't be in the semi final. What's more, it's highly likely we wouldn't have made it out of the group whatsoever.


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    #418
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Has it?

    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/237361.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/other/rugby/match/237139.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/237185.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/237167.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233327.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/rabodirect-pro12-2013-14/rugby/match/191521.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233409.html
    http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233205.html

    Seems to be pretty decent across all those games.

    Perhaps some confirmation bias?

    Was just about to say - our defence hasn't been that bad, although obviously we're leaking tries, but in terms of missed tackles it isn't as high as people think. The Glasgow game is overshadowing a lot of opinions imo.


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    #419
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    Re: tackling/defence. Is it not the coach's job to organise his team so that they are in position to make the tackles? For both Bath tries, we did that. Actually making the tackle or missing it must surely come down to the player?


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    #420
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Yeah in regards to both of the tries the biggest issue wasn't getting back into the line to defend by rather identifying the mismatch and moving the big guys narrower.

    Having said that, a huge amount of kudos must go to Ford to who identified the mismatch AND ran at them BEFORE they could fix it, especially on the first one when they had advantage, he saw it and cut back to fish out Toner's slow turn.

    That was really nice, cool collective play from Ford. But, having said that, we don't usually defend like that, and that's why I said in the other thread there were a bit flukey in the sense we wouldn't let that happen. We also left the ruck defence (pillars/posts) unfilled at times.

    We just looked tired and the communication wasn't there. I can't see that happening again, to be honest. It was a different type of defensive lapse than the one in RDS a week before, where we simply fell off the tackles.

    There's defo an element of preparation issues there. But I'd be confidence we'll fix them - whether we'll fix other issues in time for Toulon I'm not sure...


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    #421
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    Greyian wrote: »

    If we didn't have Madigan's boot, we wouldn't be in the semi final. What's more, it's highly likely we wouldn't have made it out of the group whatsoever.

    He kicked very well on Saturday, but overall in this European campaign he's been hit and miss (literally). Was it 4 from 8 against Wasps or something like that? Missed a couple away to Castres IIRC. So no, I don't think we've been any more or less reliant on accurate goal-kicking than other teams.


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