Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

.ak · 07-04-2015 3:23pm

total former wrote: »

He kicked very well on Saturday, but overall in this European campaign he's been hit and miss (literally). Was it 4 from 8 against Wasps or something like that? Missed a couple away to Castres IIRC. So no, I don't think we've been any more or less reliant on accurate goal-kicking than other teams.

Ah in fairness he's been almost impeccable bar the Wasps game. He was at +90% before that in all comps. That's very, very high.

EDIT: I don't agree with the idea that his boot has got us to where we are though, more like we got him into the positions to make those kicks and take those penalties.

total former · 07-04-2015 3:26pm

.ak wrote: »

Ah in fairness he's been almost impeccable bar the Wasps game. He was at +90% before that in all comps. That's very, very high.

EDIT: I don't agree with the idea that his boot has got us to where we are though, more like we got him into the positions to make those kicks and take those penalties.

Yeah, exactly. It's not like he's Ruan Pienaar banging them over from his own half.

He's been about average in Europe I'd say, he didn't carry us through the pool with a flawless kicking record.

EDIT: He was 74% in the pool stages - that's about average, I'd say.

.ak · 07-04-2015 3:39pm

total former wrote: »

Yeah, exactly. It's not like he's Ruan Pienaar banging them over from his own half.

He's been about average in Europe I'd say, he didn't carry us through the pool with a flawless kicking record.

EDIT: He was 74% in the pool stages - that's about average, I'd say.

Yeah but it's 74% because of the Wasps game, where he had a shocker. If you take the Wasps game he'd be above average.

Also interesting point is he's currently on 98 points for the competition, closest behind him is Ford on 89. Very impressive.

TommyOM · 07-04-2015 3:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Has it?

http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/237361.html
http://en.espn.co.uk/other/rugby/match/237139.html
http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/237185.html
http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/237167.html
http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233327.html
http://en.espn.co.uk/rabodirect-pro12-2013-14/rugby/match/191521.html
http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233409.html
http://en.espn.co.uk/guinness-pro12-2014-15/rugby/match/233205.html

Seems to be pretty decent across all those games.

Perhaps some confirmation bias?

I randomly clicked on one of those links and there were 16 tackles missed by Leinster players (against Munster)

07-04-2015 3:45pm

TommyOM wrote: »

I randomly clicked on one of those links and there were 16 tackles missed by Leinster players (against Munster)

Ireland missed 24 v France

Joe Schmidt out? If 16 is abysmal, what does that make 24? What's 150% abysmal?

TommyOM · 07-04-2015 3:48pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If given a choice of sharing an opinion with professional rugby players who are directly in contact with the environment, including the likes of Brian O'Driscoll, or you, I'm perfectly happy with which side of the table I've ended up on, cheers :pac:

I'm sure your Leinster playing mates are telling you all the inside scoop :rolleyes: Not that it matters but I'm very good friends with a starting player and he wont talk about anything inside the camp and none of the players do either.

TommyOM · 07-04-2015 3:50pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland missed 24 v France

Joe Schmidt out? If 16 is abysmal, what does that make 24? What's 150% abysmal?

Once off, as other posters have mentioned theres terrible stats in there.

molloyjh · 07-04-2015 3:52pm

Is there anything to be said for another "The truth is somewhere in between"? :pac:

In terms of our defence it has been pretty decent up until recently. Quite why it's dipped I'm not sure. Could confidence be an issue there? One thing that has stood out a lot for me this season has been our willingness to allow opposition back three players to run the ball back at us while our defensive line remains reasonably static. We don't seem to put pressure on counter attackers into making decisions. Instead we set ourselves and give them plenty of time to assess their options. It's another one of these "take pressure off the opposition and put it on ourselves" type scenarios, similar to the way we ship the ball wide when we attack. That is surely a systematic issue? But does that excuse every missed tackle? Most certainly not.

With regard a reliance on Madigans boot, he scored all of our points away to Castres, away to Quins, was ultimately the difference at home to Quins and was the source of all of our points against Bath. I think there is a lot of truth regarding our reliance on Mads ability from the tee, certainly in Europe. It was what got us through 4 of our 7 games and with the two Wasps games being so close was a factor in those as well.

.ak · 07-04-2015 3:52pm

TommyOM wrote: »

Some posters are now ignoring every single poor Leinster performance.

Who?

07-04-2015 3:55pm

TommyOM wrote: »

Once off, as other posters have mentioned theres terrible stats in there.

v Italy - 12 missed
v England - 27 missed
v France - 24 missed
v Wales - 17 missed
v Scotland - 25 missed

in 4/5 games played in the 6N, Ireland missed more tackles than Leinster did in the game you referenced.

Again, let me refer you to your original point, which is that our tackling has been abysmal all season. Is this still a contention? Is it borne out of the statistics available?

sydthebeat · 07-04-2015 3:58pm

any chance Sexton would bring Maxime Machenaud back with him to leinster?

.ak · 07-04-2015 4:05pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

any chance Sexton would bring Maxime Machenaud back with him to leinster?

I'd say he's telling him all the great places to eat and how good the weather is here ...

total former · 07-04-2015 4:07pm

molloyjh wrote: »

With regard a reliance on Madigans boot, he scored all of our points away to Castres, away to Quins, was ultimately the difference at home to Quins and was the source of all of our points against Bath. I think there is a lot of truth regarding our reliance on Mads ability from the tee, certainly in Europe. It was what got us through 4 of our 7 games and with the two Wasps games being so close was a factor in those as well.

See, there are two arguments here. Did we need goal kicks to win certain matches? Yes, but doesn't every team?

Now, did Madigan bring a better-than-average kicking ratio to the team in the pools? He did not, that was my point.

irishbucsfan · 07-04-2015 4:20pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland missed 24 v France

Joe Schmidt out? If 16 is abysmal, what does that make 24? What's 150% abysmal?

I believe it's abysisimal

Dravokivich · 07-04-2015 4:27pm

TommyOM wrote: »

I'm sure your Leinster playing mates are telling you all the inside scoop :rolleyes: Not that it matters but I'm very good friends with a starting player and he wont talk about anything inside the camp and none of the players do either.

You're the one making mention of being the know with an insider. He's clearly going by comments in the media with the reference to BO'D.

Riskymove · 07-04-2015 4:38pm

.ak wrote: »

Yeah but it's 74% because of the Wasps game, where he had a shocker. If you take the Wasps game he'd be above average.

If you ignore 99.9% of my performances I am the best rugby player who ever played

.ak · 07-04-2015 4:44pm

Riskymove wrote: »

If you ignore 99.9% of my performances I am the best rugby player who ever played

Will you sign my program? Should get 100% profit!

TommyOM · 07-04-2015 4:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

v Italy - 12 missed
v England - 27 missed
v France - 24 missed
v Wales - 17 missed
v Scotland - 25 missed

in 4/5 games played in the 6N, Ireland missed more tackles than Leinster did in the game you referenced.

Again, let me refer you to your original point, which is that our tackling has been abysmal all season. Is this still a contention? Is it borne out of the statistics available?

The Welsh game we lost and pretty much everyone agrees we were poor. Ditto for Italy where people complained about the performance. The Scotland game was a run away game and as a result there was always going to be defensive lapses. Most of the missed tackles in the England game were the result of the high amount of up and unders where the first up tackler would usually miss the receiver. As I said, France was a once off.

07-04-2015 4:57pm

TommyOM wrote: »

The Welsh game we lost and pretty much everyone agrees we were poor. Ditto for Italy where people complained about the performance. The Scotland game was a run away game and as a result there was always going to be defensive lapses. Most of the missed tackles in the England game were the result of the high amount of up and unders where the first up tackler would usually miss the receiver. As I said, France was a once off.

Again, let me refer you to your original point, which is that our tackling has been abysmal all season. Is this still a contention? Is it borne out of the statistics available?

.

TommyOM · 07-04-2015 4:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

.

yes it is.

07-04-2015 5:03pm

Right, can you explain which statistics support your contention then?

Because it's not the missed tackles one.

molloyjh · 07-04-2015 5:03pm

total former wrote: »

See, there are two arguments here. Did we need goal kicks to win certain matches? Yes, but doesn't every team?

Now, did Madigan bring a better-than-average kicking ratio to the team in the pools? He did not, that was my point.

That may be but Greyians point was that we relied on his boot, not on his accuracy. Given that his was the original post on the matter I thought it best to keep it on point. That point was not that Madigan was a better than average kicker, but that Leinster have been relying primarily on penalties to win games rather than other scoring opportunities. And he'd be right, certainly with regard to our European campaign.

irishbucsfan · 07-04-2015 5:06pm

A lot of great teams rely on the boot of their kicker, it's not a negative trait at all.

Not that I think Leinster are a great team relative to their opposition at the moment, in case it sounds like I do.

TommyOM · 07-04-2015 5:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Right, can you explain which statistics support your contention then?

Because it's not the missed tackles one.

Look at the rate of missed tackles in the very links you provided.

molloyjh · 07-04-2015 5:16pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A lot of great teams rely on the boot of their kicker, it's not a negative trait at all.

Not that I think Leinster are a great team relative to their opposition at the moment, in case it sounds like I do.

True, but there comes a point where that reliance becomes over-reliance. If I'm not mistaken that was the original point. I'd say we're at least verging on that at the moment.

07-04-2015 5:17pm

TommyOM wrote: »

Look at the rate of missed tackles in the very links you provided.

They're absolutely not out of line with any of the other teams we played against missed tackle counts.

Unless every team in all competitions has had abysmal tackling all season?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 07-04-2015 5:19pm

molloyjh wrote: »

True, but there comes a point where that reliance becomes over-reliance. If I'm not mistaken that was the original point. I'd say we're at least verging on that at the moment.

True but we stand to correct that for next season as we have another kicker coming who is superior to our current kicker

irishbucsfan · 07-04-2015 5:20pm

molloyjh wrote: »

True, but there comes a point where that reliance becomes over-reliance. If I'm not mistaken that was the original point. I'd say we're at least verging on that at the moment.

I think when you talk about a reliance on a particular factor there has to be an assumption that the decision to use that factor is, at least originally, a willing choice. I don't think that is the case for Leinster.

I think we do depend on kicking to make up for points we're unable to secure through scoring tries, however I don't think there's a conscious choice behind it. I think we're just incapable of scoring by any other means reliably. Thankfully the team have been good at creating those opportunities to score with the boot often enough to get us this far.

07-04-2015 5:21pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

True but we stand to correct that for next season as we have another kicker coming who is superior to our current kicker

The difference in kicking ability is pretty marginal compared to the rest of what Sexton's return will bring.

Stability, accuracy, creativity and control at 10 in spades compared to what we've been served this season.

irishbucsfan · 07-04-2015 5:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The difference in kicking ability is pretty marginal compared to the rest of what Sexton's return will bring.

Stability, accuracy, creativity and control at 10 in spades compared to what we've been served this season.

Just even general leadership and communication out the line.. Everything.

I swear if he gets injured before or during the world cup I'm going to cry.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

Comments