Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

CIARAN_BOYLE

Deleted User wrote: »

The difference in kicking ability is pretty marginal compared to the rest of what Sexton's return will bring.

Stability, accuracy, creativity and control at 10 in spades compared to what we've been served this season.

I know that but what I mean is that no one will be able to accuse us of being reliant on Madigan's boot next season because he won't be taking place kicks.

So we are taking a weakness over reliance on Madigan (what if he gets injured etc) and add depth as well as actual ability at 10.

Buer

With Sexton on kicking duty, Madigan might not even be in the team at all. If Reid gets a run of fitness he provides a real option there and MOC has shown in the past he's a fan of his. With someone like Sexton beside him, he could have a real shot at developing into a very good 12.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think when you talk about a reliance on a particular factor there has to be an assumption that the decision to use that factor is, at least originally, a willing choice. I don't think that is the case for Leinster.

I think we do depend on kicking to make up for points we're unable to secure through scoring tries, however I don't think there's a conscious choice behind it. I think we're just incapable of scoring by any other means reliably. Thankfully the team have been good at creating those opportunities to score with the boot often enough to get us this far.

Quite the opposite, I don't think it's a conscious choice at all. That's exactly why it would be seen as an issue. We'd rather be scoring tries but we've struggled to against good opposition. At least if we were consciously relying on penalties we could say we were following a script successfully.

And while we've been good enough to get into kickable positions and force the penalties thus far we must remember we were in the easiest of the pools and had the easiest QF draw with the exception of Toulon. And we just about managed to get through. This won't be good enough against the likes of a Northampton or Saracens or Munster, let alone a Toulon or Clermont.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Quite the opposite, I don't think it's a conscious choice at all. That's exactly why it would be seen as an issue. We'd rather be scoring tries but we've struggled to against good opposition. At least if we were consciously relying on penalties we could say we were following a script successfully.

And while we've been good enough to get into kickable positions and force the penalties thus far we must remember we were in the easiest of the pools and had the easiest QF draw with the exception of Toulon. And we just about managed to get through. This won't be good enough against the likes of a Northampton or Saracens or Munster, let alone a Toulon or Clermont.

Yeah I agree with that.

But really that means we're not relying on our kicking game at all, it just means we're being forced to fall back on it consistently. That's what we need to change, but that's an important difference to me personally (it means it's the execution that needs to be addressed rather than the philosophy).

TommyOM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah I agree with that.

But really that means we're not relying on our kicking game at all, it just means we're being forced to fall back on it consistently. That's what we need to change, but that's an important difference to me personally (it means it's the execution that needs to be addressed rather than the philosophy).

What is the philosophy under MOC?

SaveOurLyric

TommyOM wrote: »

What is the philosophy under MOC?

There's a philosophy ?

TommyOM

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

There's a philosophy ?

I think we both know the answer to that. However I am open to some of our more learned posters telling me what is this philosophy that MOC has been trying to impose?

DelMcG

Ok, so this might be something of a grenade to be throwing in at this point (and don't mistake me for a MOC apologist, far from it) but given the well highlighted issues regarding our defence, both here and in the wider media in recent days, why is no one pointing any fingers at Leo Cullen? He IS the defence coach after all.

Last year, with Jonno Gibbes in situ, even playing stultifying MOC-ball, the defence was rock solid. How many times did we see successful "goal line" stands against strong opposition? Look at the Ulster SF in the league last year for a prime example. This year, players don't tackle. They wave at the opposition. As someone remarked on Saturday "They appear to be looking for the tags hanging off the Bath players' shorts!"

Is Leo such a sacred cow that no one is taking him to task here?

CatFromHue

Leo is the forwards coach though, I don't think he looks after defence.

It also has to be said that the actual act of making a tackle is what's letting some guys down, not any system.

DelMcG

Isn't forwards and defence a single "portfolio" at Leinster though?

It certainly was under Jonno Gibbes

sydthebeat

I wonder do some people read threads at all.

Leo has been questioned continuously here

sydthebeat

I wonder do some people read threads at all.

Leo has been questioned continuously here

Neil3030

Anyone think the midfield might be distracted by Te'o playing? Before we had a centre who did the work of 2 players in defence, now we have a centre still learning the trade and possibly distracting other players from focusing on their duties. Potentially a pretty big swing in mindset and organisation.

CatFromHue

Neil3030 wrote: »

Anyone think the midfield might be distracted by Te'o playing? Before we had a centre who did the work of 2 players in defence, now we have a centre still learning the trade and possibly distracting other players from focusing on their duties. Potentially a pretty big swing in mindset and organisation.

Don't think it matters as very few of the other backs would have had much game time with Bod and Darce

Neil3030

CatFromHue wrote: »

Don't think it matters as very few of the other backs would have had much game time with Bod and Darce

True, but he could still be a distraction over an accomplished 13.

LorMal

Neil3030 wrote: »

Anyone think the midfield might be distracted by Te'o playing? Before we had a centre who did the work of 2 players in defence, now we have a centre still learning the trade and possibly distracting other players from focusing on their duties. Potentially a pretty big swing in mindset and organisation.

Great point. What in the name of all that is holy are Leinster doing at 13? We are supposed to be in the European elite..3 times champions...a fantastic group of International players...and we put a Learner into 13? To replace Brian O Driscoll?? I really do not understand.
I hope against hope that MOC throws caution to the wind and picks Luke at 13, Madigan at 10 and Darcy at 12 - let's give it a go and play with some pride, passion and flair.
To Dublin Airport with Kirshner, Teo and Gopperth..and don't spare the horses James.

Bridge93

Yes to Dublin Airport with Teo, a man who has exceeded expectations of him at this point and is still learning. Laughable.

Whether he should be in the team is debatable but to get rid of him? Nonsense.
I forgot only Darcy and Fitz play with 'pride' and 'passion'

LorMal

Bridge93 wrote: »

Yes to Dublin Airport with Teo, a man who has exceeded expectations of him at this point and is still learning. Laughable.

Whether he should be in the team is debatable but to get rid of him? Nonsense.
I forgot only Darcy and Fitz play with 'pride' and 'passion'

Think this is the laughable bit.

Bridge93

LorMal wrote: »

Think this is the laughable bit.

Yes after 8 games of Union the guy should be a master.

dregin

CatFromHue wrote: »

Leo is the forwards coach though, I don't think he looks after defence.

It also has to be said that the actual act of making a tackle is what's letting some guys down, not any system.

This annoys me a lot about McFadden. People lauding that hit at the weekend when he probably concussed himself by tackling with his head instead of his shoulder. Something he's ALWAYS doing.

LorMal

Bridge93 wrote: »

Yes after 8 games of Union the guy should be a master.

No he shouldn't be. Therefore
1. He should not be playing in the Quarter Final of the European Championship in Rugby Union for Leinster
2. He should not be taking the place of a rugby union player in the team
3. We should not be paying him to learn play Rugby Union
4. And if we don't pick him for the team (as you suggest), why the feck are we paying him???

LorMal

And I forgot to mention MOC and Douglas for the Aircoach too

So.....

Darcy's form is clearly tied directly to the length of his beard.

/discuss

Pudsy33

Giving Teo stick is bizarre. He had exceeded expectations and has all the physical attributes to be a good player. Looks like you're blaming all the foreigners.

Bridge93

LorMal wrote: »

No he shouldn't be. Therefore
1. He should not be playing in the Quarter Final of the European Championship in Rugby Union for Leinster
2. He should not be taking the place of a rugby union player in the team
3. We should not be paying him to learn play Rugby Union
4. And if we don't pick him for the team (as you suggest), why the feck are we paying him???

1. Your opinion, the same as some and different to others including the coaches.
2. He is a rugby union player
3. We're not paying him to learn, they're paying him to play. The more he plays the better he will get.
4. Why do we pay anyone outside the 23 then? Why pay the academy lads, they don't play?

I also never said he shouldn't play so don't put words in my mouth, I said its debatable whether he should be starting. I never stated my side of the argument, which for your information was that I was happy to see him play at the weekend.

LorMal

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Giving Teo stick is bizarre. He had exceeded expectations and has all the physical attributes to be a good player. Looks like you're blaming all the foreigners.

I had expectations that we would replace Brian o Driscoll with a rugby player. silly me.

Pudsy33

LorMal wrote: »

I had expectations that we would replace Brian o Driscoll with a rugby player. silly me.

Who exactly? If you're aware of some out of contract world class 13 please email Mick Dawson immediately.

CatFromHue

I'm happy to say that I think Te'o is going to turn out deadly.

sydthebeat

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Giving Teo stick is bizarre. He had exceeded expectations and has all the physical attributes to be a good player. Looks like you're blaming all the foreigners.

total former

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'm happy to say that I think Te'o is going to turn out deadly.

I've said it from the first time I saw I him in league.

Tbh some people have set themselves against him because he was signed by MOC. Whether they've actually seen him play is questionable.