Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

dub_skav

total former wrote: »

What we know:
Leo has been given the job


What we don't know:
Who else applied
How Leo performed in the selection process
Whether Leinster really want Leo or just had no-one else
What Nucifora/Schmidt make of the appointment
Why it took so long to confirm

Just think it might be worthwhile to keep the above in mind

What's important to remember:
Leo has been given the job

Nothing else really matters at this stage, I hope he brings a committed, professional attitude to the whole setup and gets the guys to perform to the best of their abilities during the World Cup so that there is genuine competition for places when the internationals return.

We don't know how he'll get on, but he's ours now so let the unleashed optimism begin.

The Rape of Lucretia

total former wrote: »

That doesn't tell us if he performed well or not.

Doesnt even tell us if anyone else was interviewed at all. Its easy to be the best of one.

total former

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Doesnt even tell us if anyone else was interviewed at all. Its easy to be the best of one.

Well that's my point, we don't know if he was the only one interviewed or if he was the best of a dozen applicants. We don't know if Nucifora was wary of this appointment or if he was insisting on it over the objections of the Leinster board. We don't know if Leinster were so keen to get Leo that they didn't bother looking for anyone else or if they spent the summer desperately trawling NZ and SA looking for someone, anyone else.

We just don't know, but people already seem to be assuming a lot.

padser

I wish Leo the best of luck in his new role. Hopefully it goes smashingly well and he gets to showcase the coaching talent that we all hope he possesses.

The performance of Leinster management over the last 18 months has been awful and if Leo doesn't succeed the blame lies squarely with them. He is ill equipped in terms of experience to deal with this and completely unproven at this level. It's a huge gamble by LR and one we shouldn't be taking, or being forced into taking due to bad prep.

The silver lining is that it's difficult to see him turning out worse than the last guy they hired.....

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

We just don't know, but people already seem to be assuming a lot.

What exactly are people assuming?

Interested Observer

Definitely not what I was hoping for in the post MOC world but it is what it is now and he'll be judged on results, performances and development I guess.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

It's absolutely disgraceful that Kidney was not approached for this job. Leinster have let their supporters down big time.

Sure the commute was too long. We all know that commuting time/distance is the absolute most important criteria in head coach selection.

total former

molloyjh wrote: »

What exactly are people assuming?

That they know the intimate details of the selection process.

Zzippy

Feel sorry for Cullen actually (not like me, I usually can't stand the guy). I'm sure he would have wanted to ease into a coaching career, do the assistant coach gig for a few years to get experience before trying a head coach role. MOC's departure left him in an awkward position, and now he's forced into taking a huge gamble very early in his career. Has a lot to lose if it doesn't work out, and he's got a few problems - Leinster just aren't that great anymore, he won't have access to the internationals for a good half of the first season, no backs coach, uncertain backing from the branch/IRFU. Tough gig for him. The redeeming factor is Sexton - if he can singlehandedly drag Leinster back to where they should be Leo will get a lot of the credit.

Noopti

Zzippy wrote: »

Feel sorry for Cullen actually (not like me, I usually can't stand the guy). I'm sure he would have wanted to ease into a coaching career, do the assistant coach gig for a few years to get experience before trying a head coach role. MOC's departure left him in an awkward position, and now he's forced into taking a huge gamble very early in his career. Has a lot to lose if it doesn't work out, and he's got a few problems - Leinster just aren't that great anymore, he won't have access to the internationals for a good half of the first season, no backs coach, uncertain backing from the branch/IRFU. Tough gig for him. The redeeming factor is Sexton - if he can singlehandedly drag Leinster back to where they should be Leo will get a lot of the credit.

He hasn't been forced into anything. He could easily have said "no thanks, I want to stay as forwards/assistant coach for a few years", and if they said he had to take the head coach role or nothing then he could have moved on and found a role he wanted in England or France.

Maybe he felt pressure to take it, due to lack of other viable or interested contenders, but I would expect him to have the personality to make the decision on its merits and not be bullied into something.

Buer

I wouldn't feel sorry at all for Cullen. He's in a win/win situation. If the team doesn't do too hot, he's a young coach who has been appointed ahead of time and taken over a squad missing a glut of players after an unsuccessful season. All done while picking up a nice pay packet.

If the team succeeds, he's a young coach who has punched above expectation and done a great job, turning around his team despite missing a glut of players. All done while picking up a nice pay packet.

It's a no brainer for him.

CatFromHue

As well as confirming Leo Cullen as Head Coach, Leinster also confirmed the makeup of Cullen's coaching team.

Kurt McQuilkin's short term arrangement has been extended to a two year contract as defence coach. As had previously been announced John Fogarty is in place as provincial scrum coach and Girvan Dempsey is in on a short term contract as backs coach until after the Rugby World Cup. Richie Murphy who is currently with the national team as they continue their RWC preparations will rejoin the Leinster Rugby set-up as skills and kicking coach post Ireland's involvement in the tournament.

So they're still looking for a backs coach.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

I wouldn't feel sorry at all for Cullen. He's in a win/win situation. If the team doesn't do too hot, he's a young coach who has been appointed ahead of time and taken over a squad missing a glut of players after an unsuccessful season. All done while picking up a nice pay packet.

If the team succeeds, he's a young coach who has punched above expectation and done a great job, turning around his team despite missing a glut of players. All done while picking up a nice pay packet.

It's a no brainer for him.

What if he gets the sack tho, will his career not be off to a bad start, will he not have trouble sourcing another job?

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

That they know the intimate details of the selection process.

Not sure anyone has assumed a huge amount about that. There has been some discussion over a lack of candidates, but that was something that was suggested in the media and as a result has been discussed as a plausible scenario, not a definitive one. In the main at least.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

What if he gets the sack tho, will his career not be off to a bad start, will he not have trouble sourcing another job?

Unless it's a complete, unmitigated disaster, he'll not be getting the sack any time soon.

Even if he does, I wouldn't be surprised for it to be in the shape of a reshuffle where he remains within Leinster Rugby in some role.

awec

It'll be a silent reshuffle.

"Thanks Leo, but Declan recently declared interest and we are unable to pass up a coach of his pedigree."

Noopti

Buer wrote: »

I wouldn't feel sorry at all for Cullen. He's in a win/win situation. If the team doesn't do too hot, he's a young coach who has been appointed ahead of time and taken over a squad missing a glut of players after an unsuccessful season. All done while picking up a nice pay packet.

If the team succeeds, he's a young coach who has punched above expectation and done a great job, turning around his team despite missing a glut of players. All done while picking up a nice pay packet.

It's a no brainer for him.

Was Martin Johnson coaching England a win/win?

sydthebeat

Noopti wrote: »

Was Martin Johnson coaching England a win/win?

a very very different sceanrio

Noopti

sydthebeat wrote: »

a very very different sceanrio

How?

CatFromHue

I think Johnson was more of a director of rugby or manager than actual coach.

Also I think there's a bit of **** tinted glasses when people look back at his reign, it wasn't that bad and only fell apart because of the RWC when the report was leaked.

Clearlier

sydthebeat wrote: »

a very very different sceanrio

The main difference is the level of scrutiny which is higher at international level than it is at club level. AFAIK Leo has no head coaching experience - it's inevitable that he's going to make mistakes - how forgiving supporters will be of them is a big question for me.

P.S. FWIW Martin Johnson did far better than I ever thought he would while inevitably coming a cropper in the end.

Buer

Noopti wrote: »

Was Martin Johnson coaching England a win/win?

No, it ended as the unmitigated disaster that will be the sort of thing that would get Cullen fired as I mention above due to the RWC showing and off field antics. Remember, he was one game away from a Grand Slam in 2011 when we beat them on the final day. Up to the RWC, there was a pretty magnanimous view of his tenure.

The weight of scrutiny and pressure on being head coach of England and head coach of Leinster is very different, though. If Johnson had been involved with the Tigers briefly and then appointed their head coach, it would be a similar scenario.

Actually, the Richard Cockerill appointment at Leicester is probably a decent comparison although he had an extra year or two as forwards coach before becoming acting head coach at the club where he spent all but a couple of seasons of his professional career. Similar weight of expectation and pedigree there too as there is at Leinster.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

Actually, the Richard Cockerill appointment at Leicester is probably a decent comparison although he had an extra year or two as forwards coach before becoming acting head coach at the club where he spent all but a couple of seasons of his professional career. Similar weight of expectation and pedigree there too as there is at Leinster.

Actually just to be pedantic... Cockers was appointed DoR and he had at his disposal an extremely talented and well regarded head coach, whose name I can't remember.

Noopti

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think Johnson was more of a director of rugby or manager than actual coach.

Also I think there's a bit of **** tinted glasses when people look back at his reign, it wasn't that bad and only fell apart because of the RWC when the report was leaked.

Johnson wasn't too bad, but he was director of rugby/manager of a top international team.....and he hasn't managed to get another job.

My point is that if someone with little experience taking a major position like that it isn't win/win. If they do terribly then go looking for another job they will be pretty lucky if a prospective club thinks "oh, it wasn't fair due to XYZ and we think you can do a job". They literally have nothing to go on with Leo. He can't really even fall back on previous jobs he had, as his only previous experience is 1 year as forwards coach.

So they can only base a hire on him failing in his previous job. That is not good, no matter how you swing it.

Also he is working for his own club, with his clubmates. That can and will be perceived as him getting an easier ride, rather than coming in externally and impressing in an interview process.

If he manages to have a good first season, for example if he manages to get out, or almost get out of the EC pool and make the league play-offs, with the team showing improvement then I think he could be ok. It is good experience for his coaching CV. But if it is a bad season, which with the various other circumstances could easily happen....then his future career will be damaged.

I know it is hard to draw conclusions without all the facts, but look how hard it has been for EOS to get a head coach role with a top club, or Kidney for that matter (if he is looking). I could be wrong of course, but I really think Leo has made a bad decision. The potential reward if he succeeds is great, but there is a high risk of it all falling apart.

Hagz

Did the senior team ever wear this jersey? Is nice.

sydthebeat

Noopti wrote: »

How?

club versus international and all the differences that entails.... especially time with players, access to academies etc

also, leo has had a year as forwards coach whereas Johnson had the grant total of no years coaching.

.ak

Hagz wrote: »

Did the senior team ever wear this jersey? Is nice.

No. That's lovely. Very un-Hagz like!

Gotta get me one of those...

Noopti

sydthebeat wrote: »

club versus international and all the differences that entails.... especially time with players, access to academies etc

also, leo has had a year as forwards coach whereas Johnson had the grant total of no years coaching.

It is all relative really. Their are of course differences between the actual jobs, but if an inexperienced coach/manager taking a job which is way above their experience level is a win/win then it should have been the case for Johnson also. The "sure, what has he got to lose" argument isn't the reality. If I was looking to hire a general manager, and a person applied who basically went straight from college to being a general manager of a large organisation, and that didn't prove successful - I wouldn't hire them as my general manager! Simple as. I wouldn't be thinking "ah sure you were young and thrown in the deep end, I'll give you another chance".

Maybe there are clubs out there who would think like that - the way rugby is a business nowadays I sincerely doubt it. I wish Leo all the best, but I think the rumblings that Nucifora isn't keen on the appointment speaks volumes. It smacks of a situation where LR hadn't many options and now they are making the best of a poorly handled and managed situation

Zzippy

Hagz wrote: »

Did the senior team ever wear this jersey? Is nice.

It's not shiny!

jm08

Buer wrote: »

No, it ended as the unmitigated disaster that will be the sort of thing that would get Cullen fired as I mention above due to the RWC showing and off field antics. Remember, he was one game away from a Grand Slam in 2011 when we beat them on the final day. Up to the RWC, there was a pretty magnanimous view of his tenure.

The weight of scrutiny and pressure on being head coach of England and head coach of Leinster is very different, though. If Johnson had been involved with the Tigers briefly and then appointed their head coach, it would be a similar scenario.

Actually, the Richard Cockerill appointment at Leicester is probably a decent comparison although he had an extra year or two as forwards coach before becoming acting head coach at the club where he spent all but a couple of seasons of his professional career. Similar weight of expectation and pedigree there too as there is at Leinster.

A more relevant example would have been Pat Howard with Leicester. He was player coach (backs) for their Heineken Cup wins. He went back to Australia for World Cup and retired in 2004 and was appointed Leicester Head coach in 2005 - around the time that Leo and shane Jennings were recruited!

He was touted for the Ireland job after Eddie (but he has left rugby coaching now).