Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

molloyjh

DelMcG wrote: »

Ok, so this might be something of a grenade to be throwing in at this point (and don't mistake me for a MOC apologist, far from it) but given the well highlighted issues regarding our defence, both here and in the wider media in recent days, why is no one pointing any fingers at Leo Cullen? He IS the defence coach after all.

Last year, with Jonno Gibbes in situ, even playing stultifying MOC-ball, the defence was rock solid. How many times did we see successful "goal line" stands against strong opposition? Look at the Ulster SF in the league last year for a prime example. This year, players don't tackle. They wave at the opposition. As someone remarked on Saturday "They appear to be looking for the tags hanging off the Bath players' shorts!"

Is Leo such a sacred cow that no one is taking him to task here?

A lot of people have questioned Leo and have been for some time. Many of us were not in any way in favour of him jumping straight into the role he is in. That role is as forwards coach though and doesn't include defence. My understanding is that Matt, like Joe before him, is the backs, attack and defence coach.

LorMal

sydthebeat wrote: »

Insulting .That's me outta here

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah I agree with that.

But really that means we're not relying on our kicking game at all, it just means we're being forced to fall back on it consistently. That's what we need to change, but that's an important difference to me personally (it means it's the execution that needs to be addressed rather than the philosophy).

Are you sure about the last bit? How can we be sure about the philosophy if it's one we've yet to see successfully implemented? Or worse, how can we be sure that the philosophy is not actually the problem, e.g. that it isn't one that works with the current squad?

LorMal

LorMal wrote: »

Insulting .That's me outta here

Ah no, please stay. I wan't to hear more about this Teo fella that just showed up one day and was given a jersey and a big contract completely out of the blue.

Super serial

DelMcG

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'm happy to say that I think Te'o is going to turn out deadly.

I've been impressed by what I've seen of him so far, give it was 13 years between his last game of union & his next one. He has all the basic materials to be a good player and seems to be picking things up with each game. It takes time to get to grips with the intricacies of the game and he did miss two months through injury which would halt any player's development. A full season under his belt next year and we can say yay or nay on him, but I think there's considerable promise there. Since we've had a lengthy discussion on stats, particularly tackling, it's worth pointing out that Te'o is the only player in Saturday's starting XV who DIDN'T miss a tackle and was the second highest tackler amongst the backs, after Madigan

Compare him to Sam Burgess, a better league player and a far more heralded union crossover, and you'll see the complete gulf in class. Burgess was supposedly the saviour of English rugby but is so poor at even the most elementary aspects of the game that he's a benchwarmer for Bath and that's only because they want some return on the money they're paying him. It's no surprise that the RFU look to have shelved him as a prospect and are sniffing around Te'o instead, whose mother is English.

CatFromHue

Burgess is in a really difficult situation as he's had no time to adapt really, also Bath have some other very good options in the centre so he's being unfairly judged for not being first choice.

Te'o is pretty much just allowed to go out and give it a go whereas Burgess has all the press judging him the whole time. I know which situation I'd prefer to be in.

The Parish King

I can't post the link but the42 have an article with some comments by Richie Murphy regarding upcoming signings.

The way Murphy phrased his reply about the possibility of an NIQ signing 'coming back in' I guess that's Nacewa? Tbh I'll be a bit disappointed if he's coming back to play after a while out, although I'd love him as a coach. Also I assume the Irish qualified player is Kearney or has that already been announced?

irishbucsfan

Don't think Kearney has been announced yet. Would be a surprise to me if there was another to be announced.

Phil Mitchell

I think Teo's time off injured probably did him a bit of good. He was just coming off a full season and the time off probably gave him more time to study and learn about his new role. I like him so far.

molloyjh

The Parish King wrote: »

I can't post the link but the42 have an article with some comments by Richie Murphy regarding upcoming signings.

The way Murphy phrased his reply about the possibility of an NIQ signing 'coming back in' I guess that's Nacewa? Tbh I'll be a bit disappointed if he's coming back to play after a while out, although I'd love him as a coach. Also I assume the Irish qualified player is Kearney or has that already been announced?

It sounds to me like we've signed a new player who is IQ as well as Isa.

CIARAN_BOYLE

molloyjh wrote: »

It sounds to me like we've signed a new player who is IQ as well as Isa.

Mick Kearney has all but been announced

Sangre

What are the general views on Mick Kearney? Future star or solid prio player? I know he is a well rated player but not in Ireland these days so struggle to catch the Connacht games.

.ak

LorMal wrote: »

I had expectations that we would replace Brian o Driscoll with a rugby player. silly me.

Oddly enough, T'eo's been our best back outside of Fitz... Not bad for someone who doesn't play rugby.

total former

So looks like Douglas is out again this weekend, which makes it very unlikely he'll be available for Toulon. Balls anyway.

.ak

Bugger. Although if he's fit for Toulon there's a good chance he'll make the bench.

total former

.ak wrote: »

Bugger. Although if he's fit for Toulon there's a good chance he'll make the bench.

Yeah even if he can manage 15 minutes he's a better option than Denton, and in fairness McCarthy was good against Bath, but you just feel we'll need a lot of things to go our way if we are to have any chance.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Oddly enough, T'eo's been our best back outside of Fitz... Not bad for someone who doesn't play rugby.

Really? Are you sure? I know it hasn't been an area of strength for us and that Te'o has settled in pretty bloody well all things considered but given the issues he still has in his game (defence, breakdown work etc) can we really say he's been our best back outside of Fitzy? While writing this I'm extremely conscious that I can't identify another stand-out candidate, but that includes Te'o.

total former wrote: »

Yeah even if he can manage 15 minutes he's a better option than Denton, and in fairness McCarthy was good against Bath, but you just feel we'll need a lot of things to go our way if we are to have any chance.

Let's be honest about this. We need Toulon to have a bad day at the office, a little bit like their second half against Wasps. And even then we'd need to play far and above what we've played for most of the season. We'll go there as underdogs but people will talk up our pedigree, but I can't sake the feeling that we could be in for a bit of a hiding. We're easily the weakest of the remaining teams. Not only are we the only remaining team not in their respective play-off places domestically, we're the only ones not in the top 2 domestically. Toulon won't need to be at their best to beat us, but if they find form they could beat us well. Obviously there is a chance we could sneak it, but with our midfield issues and our current form it would be a pretty massive shock.

TommyOM

From what I have seen Teo is going to be a fantastic player for us. I can't wait to see how he goes next season.

sydthebeat

our best back outside of fitz has been R Kearney.

Consistent without being striking.

Teo has been decent in defense but has yet to show his best form in attack in my opinion, but that may be becuase he seems to be asked to bash ball

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Really? Are you sure? I know it hasn't been an area of strength for us and that Te'o has settled in pretty bloody well all things considered but given the issues he still has in his game (defence, breakdown work etc) can we really say he's been our best back outside of Fitzy? While writing this I'm extremely conscious that I can't identify another stand-out candidate, but that includes Te'o.

Well, he's certainly been our best back in terms of attack, that's for sure.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

Really? Are you sure? I know it hasn't been an area of strength for us and that Te'o has settled in pretty bloody well all things considered but given the issues he still has in his game (defence, breakdown work etc) can we really say he's been our best back outside of Fitzy? While writing this I'm extremely conscious that I can't identify another stand-out candidate, but that includes Te'o.

Well, in terms of attack, he has certainly been the best aside from Fitzgerald. In defence, I don't think he has been exposed the way most of us worried he would be or even some think he has been. I don't recall too many missed tackles and he certainly doesn't lack for willingness to smash someone.

At ruck time, he's a non-entity in defence. To be honest, it's probably better that he keeps out of the rucks as it's simply asking for the referee to penalise him. I don't know whether it's bizarre or impressive but in 557 minutes of rugby, the bloke is yet to give away a penalty for us. Whatever about him getting involved in rucks it does suggest he has been getting into good body positions as he goes into contact as well as getting over the gain line, making it easy on supporting players to clear out.

.ak

sydthebeat wrote: »

our best back outside of fitz has been R Kearney.

Consistent without being striking.

Teo has been decent in defense but has yet to show his best form in attack in my opinion, but that may be becuase he seems to be asked to bash ball

I've been a defender of Kearney but I don't think he's actually played enough for us lately to class him as that.

I think T'eo has shown a lot more than just bashing the ball up... The two switches with Luke Fitz in the recent months were sublime and showed great awareness and vision and something our other players just don't do.

sydthebeat

.ak wrote: »

I've been a defender of Kearney but I don't think he's actually played enough for us lately to class him as that.

I think T'eo has shown a lot more than just bashing the ball up... The two switches with Luke Fitz in the recent months were sublime and showed great awareness and vision and something our other players just don't do.

fair enough, though id put a switch between a 13 and winger as a fairly basic called move, ive yet to see him get hands free in a tackle to put someone through a gap. Something i think he is well capable of.

Everything being equal, id actually love to see a 10 - 13 of sexton, teo and fitz. But i dont think we will get to see that.

total former

molloyjh wrote: »

Let's be honest about this. We need Toulon to have a bad day at the office, a little bit like their second half against Wasps. And even then we'd need to play far and above what we've played for most of the season. We'll go there as underdogs but people will talk up our pedigree, but I can't sake the feeling that we could be in for a bit of a hiding. We're easily the weakest of the remaining teams. Not only are we the only remaining team not in their respective play-off places domestically, we're the only ones not in the top 2 domestically. Toulon won't need to be at their best to beat us, but if they find form they could beat us well. Obviously there is a chance we could sneak it, but with our midfield issues and our current form it would be a pretty massive shock.

Yeah, that's all fair enough, but it's not impossible that Toulon would have an off day. Their last two games they've struggled against Wasps and lost at home to Toulouse. We saw this time last year that Munster were able to put it up to them, even if Toulon always looked likely to close it out. If Giteau continues to struggle with fitness, that could be another massive boost for us. So that's Toulon.

Us? I dunno, I think we're going to be much improved over last weekend. We should be more cohesive given a few weeks together in camp. Toulon had issues in the scrum and I think we're better than Wasps in that regard so hopefully we'll have an edge. If everyone stays fit then we can match them up front. The 10-12-13 axis is our problem; if that can somehow click we're in with a great chance, but I don't see that happening in time.

So yeah, it would be a massive shock, but it would be a massive shock for any non-French team to go to France and beat Toulon, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

#believeinblue #bluemagic #etc

thomond2006

Your best back outside of Luke Fitz has been Sean Cronin tbh!

.ak

sydthebeat wrote: »

fair enough, though id put a switch between a 13 and winger as a fairly basic called move, ive yet to see him get hands free in a tackle to put someone through a gap. Something i think he is well capable of.

Everything being equal, id actually love to see a 10 - 13 of sexton, teo and fitz. But i dont think we will get to see that.

It's something he has done already though. He's very good at getting his hand free and he has gotten the ball away when we've had support runners. He's only going to get better at it. Remember, he's played a very limited amount for us since his arrival due to his injury. We're not going to see big offloads like that in every game.

Regarding the switch, it's actually not that easy to do, it requires the runner to drift at the right pace to keep the defender moving with him, and the outside player switching in to cut at the right time and not too early, it's a very hard thing to get right. In both instances T'eo almost put Luke over the line for a try, in the 2nd instance it did result in a try but Ryan got over the line.

But the biggest point of all is we've got players with years and year of test experience and they struggle to do the basics like that. This is a guy who's played feck all union and has the vision and skill and balls to try that. Most of us we just expecting him to truck a ball up from a standing start for about 6 months until he got confident.

LorMal

I think you are setting the bar too low if you're happy with Te'o as our 13. My opinion is that this is too important a position to be allocated to a player who is still in development in Rugby Union.
I have been accused of xenophobia here by some gob****e but the reality is that all of our imported recently players have failed to reach the highest standards. I would include Jimmy G, Kirshner, Douglas, Te'o.
They just don't compare to the likes of Rocky, Isa, Hines, Stan. (I do appreciate we also had a couple of duds over the years)
Surely a NIQ is only worth employing if he is very significantly better than the alternatives available in the club?

rrpc

I've been reading the last few pages and I don't think it's been said clearly enough that Leinster has and continues to suffer from the numbers swallowed up by the national squad.

When you consider that two entire front rows, a second row, a back row and most of the backs are away on international duty for months at a time and add in the injuries to starting players, it's almost a miracle that we are still in with a shout in both competitions.

Most of the issues alluded to in the last few pages can be ascribed to exactly this 'problem'. Communication problems are almost always at the heart of missed tackles and missed opportunities. It's no surprise surely that we tend to make a late burst after the six nations and the previous six months are a case of hanging in there and doing the least damage to our prospects.

When Joe was in charge, we didn't have as many starting players on international duty and we still used to suffer a bit of a slump in mid season.

Or maybe I'm just an apologist for MOC

Podge_irl

LorMal wrote: »

I think you are setting the bar too low if you're happy with Te'o as our 13. My opinion is that this is too important a position to be allocated to a player who is still in development in Rugby Union.

He certainly shouldn't be the current 13. Anyone other than Fitz there against Toulon is madness.

The point is that there is a reasonable chance that Teo could be a very good player for us going forward. He has already exceeded expectations and with some games behind him and a full off-season of work he could be a very useful asset.

molloyjh

rrpc wrote: »

I've been reading the last few pages and I don't think it's been said clearly enough that Leinster has and continues to suffer from the numbers swallowed up by the national squad.

When you consider that two entire front rows, a second row, a back row and most of the backs are away on international duty for months at a time and add in the injuries to starting players, it's almost a miracle that we are still in with a shout in both competitions.

Most of the issues alluded to in the last few pages can be ascribed to exactly this 'problem'. Communication problems are almost always at the heart of missed tackles and missed opportunities. It's no surprise surely that we tend to make a late burst after the six nations and the previous six months are a case of hanging in there and doing the least damage to our prospects.

When Joe was in charge, we didn't have as many starting players on international duty and we still used to suffer a bit of a slump in mid season.

Or maybe I'm just an apologist for MOC

Did we suffer mid-season slumps in previous years? I don't recall that at all. We started slowly but that's about it.

The disruption is a factor that we've spoken about quite a lot here tbh. Some refuse to acknowledge it sure, while others place more or less importance on it depending on their viewpoint.

It doesn't excuse that loss to Dragons though. Or even the loss to Scarlets if we're being honest. It has had a huge impact on our season, as have injuries, but there's more to our problems than just that. And while we're providing more players to the Ireland team we also arguably have better depth than ever before. Remember during the 6 Nations we were fielding the likes of:

Bent Strauss Furlong
McCarthy Douglas
Ryan Conan Jenno

Boss Gopperth
Reid Te'o
Fitzgerald Kirchner McFadden

Dundon, Dooley, Burke-Flynn, Denton, VDF, McGrath, Darce, D Kearney

That's still a pretty strong starting XV for the international window and even the bench has some strength to it outside the props. But we got a couple of internationals back for a couple of games too.