Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

Tim Robbins

tbm wrote: »

I dunno, I'd say he'll be going. Why would he stay? I believe he's an ECC and international standard 10, he just needs to be trusted and given time there. Sexton is back, Marsh is going well. I'd be looking at the T14 or the Premiership if I was him. I don't want him to go, but I really want him to succeed. He deserves it.

#feckinmattofeckinconnor

Scrum half?

rrpc

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Scrum half?

That would qualify him for Top 14 rugby anyway.

Teferi

tbm wrote: »

#feckinmattofeckinconnor

Mads couldn't beat Gopperth for the job. That is nothing to do with O'Connor.

.ak

Teferi wrote: »

Mads couldn't beat Gopperth for the job. That is nothing to do with O'Connor.

This.

To be honest, if we're waiting for time when Madigan develops into an international standard OH we'll all be old and grey.

The guy has had so much opportunity and it's always someone else's fault than his when he doesn't take that step up.

The guy is an absolute talent. In terms of raw skills he's probably the most talented and skilled player in natural terms since BOD but the guy just doesn't have that vision all top outhalves have.

Personally I think he's the best player in the country to have in the 22 jersey. He can still do that by staying with Leinster. I reckon he'll be in and out at 12 or 22 for the big games.

Stheno

Lads who was the ref for the Treviso match last weekend?

.ak

.ak wrote: »

This.

To be honest, if we're waiting for time when Madigan develops into an international standard OH we'll all be old and grey.

Yeah I think that is fair. If Madigan got a full season at 10 he would be a better 10. He has terrific ability with ball in hand, but what he doesn't have and what Irish teams thrive on is game direction.

If both Sexton and Madigan found themselves both in identical circumstances about to take the ball on from 9, the decisions they make in that split instance, with all the information in front of them is what dictates the next couple of phases and what separates them as players.

Sexton will make an 80% + call, even if he doesn't get it right, he will make a smart play and advance the teams station.

Madigan makes 60 - 80% calls. Sometimes he floats the ball into Luke Fitzgeralds hands near touch for him to run in a try. Sometimes he kicks the ball backwards across the gain line while everyone watching the game pulls their hair out, or gifts an intercept with a skip pass.

Madigan can improve his decision making, but he isn't naturally as gifted with this part of his game. I don't think Jackson has the skill set that Madigan has, but he has a better reading of the game and absorbs the information he sees in front of him and makes better decisions based on that information. Sexton is one of the best at this.

Madigan is in an unusual situation. I don't think he would have gotten nearly as much game time as he did last season had MOC been more confident in Gopperth's kicking. Reid and Darcy both had their seasons trashed last seasons by the need to have a reliable kicker on the field as our finishing was so poor otherwise and our backs looked clueless.

The nail in the coffin for me, is that Gopperth probably isn't the best decision maker in the world either, but he is still better than Madigan. Had Sexton been available last season I think MOC would still be Leinster coach.

phog

Stheno wrote: »

Lads who was the ref for the Treviso match last weekend?

At Stadio Monigo, 4pm local time (3pm Ireland & UK) Live on RAI Sport/Sky Sports
Referee: Andrew Brace (IRFU, 5th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Giuseppe Vivarini, Gregorio Piran (both FIR)
Citing Commissioner: Francesco Grillo (FIR)
TMO: Stefano Roscini (FIR)

LorMal

.ak wrote: »

This.

To be honest, if we're waiting for time when Madigan develops into an international standard OH we'll all be old and grey.

The guy has had so much opportunity and it's always someone else's fault than his when he doesn't take that step up.

The guy is an absolute talent. In terms of raw skills he's probably the most talented and skilled player in natural terms since BOD but the guy just doesn't have that vision all top outhalves have.

Personally I think he's the best player in the country to have in the 22 jersey. He can still do that by staying with Leinster. I reckon he'll be in and out at 12 or 22 for the big games.

I have never heard him blame anyone else - in fact, if anything, he is too self critical. I think he needs to leave Leinster and join a club where he will get consistant game time at 10.
Leinster are in thrall to Sexton, he can do no wrong. (Even when he is flaky.)
I think the Premiership might suit Madigan. Geordan Murphy never looked back.

clsmooth

LorMal wrote: »

I have never heard him blame anyone else - in fact, if anything, he is too self critical. I think he needs to leave Leinster and join a club where he will get consistant game time at 10.
Leinster are in thrall to Sexton, he can do no wrong. (Even when he is flaky.)
I think the Premiership might suit Madigan. Geordan Murphy never looked back.

I think he's referring to the fans blaming MOC or playing outside Boss for his poor performances at 10

rrpc

clsmooth wrote: »

I think he's referring to the fans blaming MOC or playing outside Boss for his poor performances at 10

To be fair to the MOC knockers, Madigan had a far better season when Sexton was still there and I think he even started more games.

molloyjh

LorMal wrote: »

I have never heard him blame anyone else - in fact, if anything, he is too self critical. I think he needs to leave Leinster and join a club where he will get consistant game time at 10.
Leinster are in thrall to Sexton, he can do no wrong. (Even when he is flaky.)
I think the Premiership might suit Madigan. Geordan Murphy never looked back.

ak is talking about how others blame anyone but Mads, he wasn't talking about Mads himself. I think he's potentially being a bit harsh in some of what he says but the jist of it is true. Madigan simply isn't a particularly good 10, despite the fantastic skill set he has. On the back foot he is incapable of managing a game. His kicking from hand is hit and miss and he takes far, far too much ball on himself. He may not have had as many opportunities as people would have liked but we've seen little improvement in those areas he's weak in the chances he's had. He can still come good, but time is very much against him at this stage.

AbusesToilets

In a parallel universe, Madigan grew up in france and became a world class scrumhalf, taking Parra's spot and condemning Ireland to a decade's worth of heartbreak.

.ak

LorMal wrote: »

I have never heard him blame anyone else - in fact, if anything, he is too self critical. I think he needs to leave Leinster and join a club where he will get consistant game time at 10.
Leinster are in thrall to Sexton, he can do no wrong. (Even when he is flaky.)
I think the Premiership might suit Madigan. Geordan Murphy never looked back.

I'm not saying he blames other people. I'm talking about the fans.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I think in Madigan's case if he wanted to be a 10 and just a 10 the time to move was a few seasons ago. At this point he's almost always guaranteed the 22 shirt for Leinster and Ireland and he seems to be perfectly happy with that.

As far as Ireland is concerned I'd still rather Jackson was 10 in the absence of Sexton. I'm not sure what other options Leinster have? He's probably guaranteed to start if Sexton isn't playing.

Zzippy

hogandrew wrote: »

So far this year in the 2 games I've seen Scarlets play they've been blatantly having a player cut across in front of the opposition just after or during the tackle, slowing players getting to the breakdown and turning over ball or slowing it considerably.

Both Leinster and Munster seemed to struggle with it and I don't remember seeing them pulled up on it. Is it fair game to hit a player who is a yard offside at your side of the ruck as if he were part of the ruck?

I know all teams try this but Scarlets appear to target it big time.

I noticed this at the weekend, or maybe it was last week. For one of Scarlets tries a defender arriving at the ruck to do pillar defence was totally taken out by a Scarlets player going past the ruck, and this opened a gap for an attacker to pick and go over the line. You could see the defender appealing to the ref, but he was having none of it. He hadn't even joined the ruck when he was taken out.

.ak

Zzippy wrote: »

I noticed this at the weekend, or maybe it was last week. For one of Scarlets tries a defender arriving at the ruck to do pillar defence was totally taken out by a Scarlets player going past the ruck, and this opened a gap for an attacker to pick and go over the line. You could see the defender appealing to the ref, but he was having none of it. He hadn't even joined the ruck when he was taken out.

Basically sounds like a mirror image of POC's try against England where Best cleared the defender completely past the ruck.

The thing is it's very hard to ref. you're allowed clear opposing ruckers past the ruck. But where do you define an opposing player as part of the ruck. The laws say it's when both players bind onto each other, but that's just not realistic, you've got to give the team with the ball a chance to secure it by engaging the player coming in early.

Also some pillar defenders make themselves part of the ruck if they bind onto a rucking player.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Basically sounds like a mirror image of POC's try against England where Best cleared the defender completely past the ruck.

The thing is it's very hard to ref. you're allowed clear opposing ruckers past the ruck. But where do you define an opposing player as part of the ruck. The laws say it's when both players bind onto each other, but that's just not realistic, you've got to give the team with the ball a chance to secure it by engaging the player coming in early.

Also some pillar defenders make themselves part of the ruck if they bind onto a rucking player.

Yeah but the issue here is players not even within reach of the ruck getting taken out by guys not part of a ruck. Either they go beyond the ruck to get the man before he gets there (illegal as you can't obstruct someone from joining a ruck like that) or coming around the ruck altogether and just getting in the way (also illegal for the same reason). It's one thing to clear a guy out as he is trying to join and then taking him beyond the ruck. It's another to target a man before he gets there to ensure he can't get involved at all. A lot of them are pretty damn obvious as well. As someone who enjoys watching a good breakdown contest it's really annoying.

jacothelad

Zzippy wrote: »

I noticed this at the weekend, or maybe it was last week. For one of Scarlets tries a defender arriving at the ruck to do pillar defence was totally taken out by a Scarlets player going past the ruck, and this opened a gap for an attacker to pick and go over the line. You could see the defender appealing to the ref, but he was having none of it. He hadn't even joined the ruck when he was taken out.

The same thing happened repeatedly when they played Ulster. It was infuriating but the Ospreys have been doing it for years.

irishbucsfan

I dunno, I've never minded it when playing and it's much more common at my level. If you're intelligent about the way you approach the breakdown and have decent awareness of where the opposition is you can avoid it.

scott1974

Jimmy Gopperth got a three week ban for the challenge on Matthew Tait, we won't be seeing him in the RDS....well not playing anyway.

tbm

Teferi wrote: »

Mads couldn't beat Gopperth for the job. That is nothing to do with O'Connor.

I don't buy that. I'm not saying he should have been given an armchair ride, but he was immediately on the back foot with the new management. MOC came in and it was almost like he was trying to draw a line under the previous coaching ticket by straight out the gate making Gopps the starting 10. I don't think Mads was given a fair crack at it. He'd done his time being the Pro12 guy. I don't see what he did to lose the 10 jersey when MOC arrived. He was never really given it to lose.

Anyway, I think he'd thrive with a sustained period at 10 somewhere else.

sydthebeat

scott1974 wrote: »

Jimmy Gopperth got a three week ban for the challenge on Matthew Tait, we won't be seeing him in the RDS....well not playing anyway.

so for those watching Premiership rugby, are we more likely to see Jackson or Lozowski at 10 against us?

tbm

tbm wrote: »

I don't buy that. I'm not saying he should have been given an armchair ride, but he was immediately on the back foot with the new management. MOC came in and it was almost like he was trying to draw a line under the previous coaching ticket by straight out the gate making Gopps the starting 10. I don't think Mads was given a fair crack at it. He'd done his time being the Pro12 guy. I don't see what he did to lose the 10 jersey when MOC arrived. He was never really given it to lose.

Anyway, I think he'd thrive with a sustained period at 10 somewhere else.

Eh. So what you are saying is that MOC hamstrung himself by playing a worse 10 just to prove a point?

I guarantee you this did not happen.

former total

scott1974 wrote: »

Jimmy Gopperth got a three week ban for the challenge on Matthew Tait, we won't be seeing him in the RDS....well not playing anyway.

I think 3 weeks is about right really. That was a bizarre incident.

Interested Observer

Who do Wasps have as back up?

sydthebeat

tbm wrote: »

I don't buy that. I'm not saying he should have been given an armchair ride, but he was immediately on the back foot with the new management. MOC came in and it was almost like he was trying to draw a line under the previous coaching ticket by straight out the gate making Gopps the starting 10. I don't think Mads was given a fair crack at it. He'd done his time being the Pro12 guy. I don't see what he did to lose the 10 jersey when MOC arrived. He was never really given it to lose.

Anyway, I think he'd thrive with a sustained period at 10 somewhere else.

he was given a 'fair crack', he didnt have the 10 jersey when MOC came, so he didnt loose it.

gopperth was simply a more consistent 10, and madigan suffered for being a "versatile" player off the bench

former total

Interested Observer wrote: »

Who do Wasps have as back up?

Ruaidhri Jackson, he's OK but not great, and Alex Lozowski who is very young.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I see Isa is over at The Stoop doing the launch for the ECC while Heaslip is poncing around the Web Summit giving talks. Maybe that's why Isa is captain, Heaslip too distracted by coffee and Internet to do the job properly

Just looking at the run of fixtures. A good test this Friday and then a decent break until the following Sunday and a must win home game against Wasps who've only won 1 from 3 in the prem.

Then Bath away which I think is going to be a bit of a pivot for our season. I think Bath will finish ahead of Wasps, and if Leinster beat Bath away I think it sets us up nicely going into the double header against Toulon who have only won 3 of their last 7 games.

By the time we play Bath again they will have played their double header against Wasps and if we've won one against Toulon and beaten Bath away it's all going to be on them to beat us at home which will be a tough ask.

Bath and Wasps currently bottom half of the prem but only 3 games in.

It's a tough group but on current form and considering we have most of the current starting Ireland team I think we should be good to at least qualify.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I see Isa is over at The Stoop doing the launch for the ECC while Heaslip is poncing around the Web Summit giving talks. Maybe that's why Isa is captain, Heaslip too distracted by coffee and Internet to do the job properly

I heard that the prep talk before the Argentina game by Heaslip was entirely about Madigan's new hair cut.

He is just far too soft as a captain and even though I don't know him and have only met him a handful of times and have no experience of him as a captain, I'm certain he is terrible at it.