Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

I heard that the prep talk before the Argentina game by Heaslip was entirely about Madigan's new hair cut.

"Winning a QF is a lot like brewing a good coffee..... and it's like I always tell the barrista at 3fe... draw a dog in the foam. Remember boys, INTERNET! START UPS! CAN'T LOSE! "

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

"Winning a QF is a lot like brewing a good coffee..... and it's like I always tell the barrista at 3fe... draw a dog in the foam. Remember boys, INTERNET! START UPS! CAN'T LOSE! "

The sad thing is, judging by the "next Ireland captain" thread there are a lot of people who seem to believe that the above is close to accurate.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

The sad thing is, judging by the "next Ireland captain" thread there are a lot of people who seem to believe that the above is close to accurate.

I ventured into that thread in its early stages and never went back.

tbm

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh. So what you are saying is that MOC hamstrung himself by playing a worse 10 just to prove a point?

I guarantee you this did not happen.

No, that would be daft. I'm saying the MOC game plan didn't give Madigan - a clearly more talented player - a chance.

Interested Observer

former total wrote: »

Ruaidhri Jackson, he's OK but not great, and Alex Lozowski who is very young.

Don't see Jackson as being any worse than Gopperth, I forgot he was at Wasps.

irishbucsfan

tbm wrote: »

No, that would be daft. I'm saying the MOC game plan didn't give Madigan - a clearly more talented player - a chance.

Except he's not a clearly more talented player. Look at the first half against Ulster last season where he was absolutely dire, he lost any chance he had of being our starting 10 that day. It was just bad execution and decision making over and over again.

EDIT: Also if MOC was going to draw a line under the previous coaching setup (despite his quotes not reflecting that at all) then selecting Gopperth, who was recruited by Schmidt, wouldn't really have been the best way to do that.

former total

Interested Observer wrote: »

Don't see Jackson as being any worse than Gopperth, I forgot he was at Wasps.

Ah, I know there is a lot of baggage attached to Gopperth on this forum but come on, he is much better than Jackson.

Interested Observer

Meh, not arsed. Gopperth is a poor out half. We'll see how it goes in the RDS for them.

scott1974

former total wrote: »

Ah, I know there is a lot of baggage attached to Gopperth on this forum but come on, he is much better than Jackson.

I don't think Jackson even made the Scottish RWC squad.
Dont know anything about Lozowski..

irishbucsfan

It's impossible to say with Jackson. He's been ruined by his injury history. Gopperth is certainly a flawed player as well though, it's an area of weakness for Wasps

former total

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's impossible to say with Jackson. He's been ruined by his injury history. Gopperth is certainly a flawed player as well though, it's an area of weakness for Wasps

What we do know is that Jackson is firmly behind Gopperth in the pecking order at Wasps. So if Gopperth is as sh*t as he's made out to be here (and he very much isn't), then Jackson must be absolutely appalling.

Either way, it's all good for us; Gopperth, Masi, Leiua and James Johnson all missing, Piutau not in the squad yet, could be a good time to play them and get the pool up and running.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Lozowski started a few matches for them last season, even a European one, so I'd assume they'll go with him. Gopperth's only played 2/3 matches for them so most of them are probably more used to playing with Lozowski.

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

What we do know is that Jackson is firmly behind Gopperth in the pecking order at Wasps. So if Gopperth is as sh*t as he's made out to be here (and he very much isn't), then Jackson must be absolutely appalling.

Either way, it's all good for us; Gopperth, Masi, Leiua and James Johnson all missing, Piutau not in the squad yet, could be a good time to play them and get the pool up and running.

Well I'd have Gopperth ahead of Jackson myself but I'd think Jackson has potential to be the best of the two. Gopperth was also the best 10 in our squad, but I think both Leinster and Wasps would look for a bit more quality in the position. I'd imagine Wasps will be out looking to spend some of their new money on a replacement as soon as one becomes available.

Redgirl82

Gopperth is very highly rated in the premiership. Just to get an idea why he is so highly rated read below from his time playing for Newcastle. Also note Newcastle where sh*t at the time but he still was top scorer in Premiership in both seasons.

Newcastle Falcons

In 2009, only a season after joining the Blues, Gopperth joined Newcastle Falcons on a three-year deal replacing World Cup winner Jonny Wilkinson. In his first season Gopperth made 22 appearances, scoring 2 tries and a massive haul of 219 points - making him the league's top scorer. Gopperth, made an appearance for Newcastle Falcons in the Anglo-Welsh Cup, not scoring any points. Gopperth also ended the season as the top points scorer in the Amlin Challenge Cup scoring an impressive 74 points in 7 appearances.

In the 2010/2011 season Gopperth again finished top scorer in the Premiership.

irishbucsfan

He's not really very highly rated in the Premiership, no. But he could be highly rated if he gets himself into some form when he gets back after this suspension.

vang

Gopperth just got a 3 week ban till 24th November for hitting Mathew Tait

Neil3030

Funny seeing Marsh coming on against Treviso last week and finding lots of space to make breaks. Like looking at 2010 or 2011 Madigan all over again. Johnny just leaves em puffin!

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

Funny seeing Marsh coming on against Treviso last week and finding lots of space to make breaks. Like looking at 2010 or 2011 Madigan all over again. Johnny just leaves em puffin!

Yeah it sounds like Cullen is happy with McGrath/Marsh thus far anyway:

"I wanted to see Cathal Marsh again, and Luke McGrath. It was good to change those half-backs, to get another look at them. I thought they looked really, really sharp when they came on as well. So, good to see those guys really pushing for their place in the team."

...

"There were a couple of times maybe we did overplay when we were exiting, but the players have licence to go and play what's there as well. It's trying to get a handle post-match; what's going through their heads, what are they actually seeing, and are they making the right choices based on what they're seeing? There was some space that we could've kick to on a few occasions, maybe played ourselves into a little bit of trouble a few times. But overall, for the first hit out, we knew it was going to be very tricky against Treviso as well. We've a pretty poor record over there over the years. A lot of teams do because Treviso are a good outfit, particularly when they play at home."

...

"I think it's just getting guys used to what we're trying to do," Cullen said when asked about the internationals returning.

"The terminology is like learning a new language - it's not quite second nature yet. We're getting guys up to speed and we'll have a few more bodies back into the mix probably this week (against Scarlets). We'll see how everyone is post-game, how everyone comes through and we'll make some assessments then."

Also good to hear they're looking at the same issues with ball control that we've been worried about.

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/14203.php

scott1974

Looks like Quade Cooper has finally signed for Toulon...

stephen_n

For me the comparison with Marsh & Madigan is quite appropriate, both have oodles if individual talent and are extremely dangerous with ball in hand. Marsh seems to also have Madigans issue with identifying space and game management, which I think Leo alludes too in that comment. I think Marsh could really benefit from a move away from Leinster, far more so than Madigan, he's never likely to get enough high level game time to really kick on and develop as a 10, especially with Byrne coming behind him.

RichieRich89

stephen_n wrote: »

For me the comparison with Marsh & Madigan is quite appropriate, both have oodles if individual talent and are extremely dangerous with ball in hand. Marsh seems to also have Madigans issue with identifying space and game management, which I think Leo alludes too in that comment. I think Marsh could really benefit from a move away from Leinster, far more so than Madigan, he's never likely to get enough high level game time to really kick on and develop as a 10, especially with Byrne coming behind him.

Marsh seems to be less selfish though, better at bringing those around him into the game. I've been impressed by his tackling too

molloyjh

stephen_n wrote: »

For me the comparison with Marsh & Madigan is quite appropriate, both have oodles if individual talent and are extremely dangerous with ball in hand. Marsh seems to also have Madigans issue with identifying space and game management, which I think Leo alludes too in that comment. I think Marsh could really benefit from a move away from Leinster, far more so than Madigan, he's never likely to get enough high level game time to really kick on and develop as a 10, especially with Byrne coming behind him.

You don't need high level games to develop. Marsh is 3 years younger than Mads and nowhere near as experienced. I wouldn't be giving up hope on him learning his trade at Pro12 level just yet. After all it's his first season at senior level. You don't start your career as the finished article.

Mads on the other hand has had 4-5 seasons to develop his game and we've seen relatively little development in that time. I wouldn't give up on him just yet, but while Marsh had time on his side Mads very much doesn't.

LorMal

molloyjh wrote: »

You don't need high level games to develop. Marsh is 3 years younger than Mads and nowhere near as experienced. I wouldn't be giving up hope on him learning his trade at Pro12 level just yet. After all it's his first season at senior level. You don't start your career as the finished article.

Mads on the other hand has had 4-5 seasons to develop his game and we've seen relatively little development in that time. I wouldn't give up on him just yet, but while Marsh had time on his side Mads very much doesn't.

In fairness to the chap, very very little of this '4-5 seasons' time he's been given has been starting at 10. How is he supposed to develop the leadership and game management skills required?
Seems to me that if a player comes off the bench a few times and plays well, he becomes an 'impact sub' - but will always remains behind the incumbent in the pecking order (partly because he wont get the sustained game time necessary). It could be argued that current examples might include Sean Cronin (?), Jack Mc Grath and Madigan.
If I was Madigan I'd go now or accept always being the bridesmaid and never the bride.

irishbucsfan

LorMal wrote: »

In fairness to the chap, very very little of this '4-5 seasons' time he's been given has been starting at 10. How is he supposed to develop the leadership and game management skills required?

How has any other out half developed? Sexton spent most of 08/09 on the bench and came on in leaps and bounds in those areas of the game by the time Felipe got injured in that semi final. In the weeks leading up to the semi final some of our best rugby was at the end of games when Sexton came on and injected some life into Gaffney's systems where Felipe couldn't.

Players don't absolutely require starting gametime to develop those skills and Madigan has had played 10 at all kinds of levels both as a starter and off the bench and has never really shown much development in those areas. If he doesn't show that this season it may be worthwhile for Leinster to look elsewhere.

hogandrew

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How has any other out half developed? Sexton spent most of 08/09 on the bench and came on in leaps and bounds in those areas of the game by the time Felipe got injured in that semi final. In the weeks leading up to the semi final some of our best rugby was at the end of games when Sexton came on and injected some life into Gaffney's systems where Felipe couldn't.

Players don't absolutely require starting gametime to develop those skills and Madigan has had played 10 at all kinds of levels both as a starter and off the bench and has never really shown much development in those areas. If he doesn't show that this season it may be worthwhile for Leinster to look elsewhere.

If he's prepared to cover positions and be on the bench indefinitely then he's really the perfect choice for Leinster. It's not like there's no other choice there.

I think it would be more Madigan looking elsewhere than Leinster looking to unload him.

LorMal

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How has any other out half developed? Sexton spent most of 08/09 on the bench and came on in leaps and bounds in those areas of the game by the time Felipe got injured in that semi final. In the weeks leading up to the semi final some of our best rugby was at the end of games when Sexton came on and injected some life into Gaffney's systems where Felipe couldn't.

Players don't absolutely require starting gametime to develop those skills and Madigan has had played 10 at all kinds of levels both as a starter and off the bench and has never really shown much development in those areas. If he doesn't show that this season it may be worthwhile for Leinster to look elsewhere.

Yep - very fair point. I suppose I think Madigan brings something different to the position which could be nurtured and developed - even at this stage in his career. He has a lot of flaws but he has a ton of talent. He needs a year playing as first choice 10 somewhere - a mid table Premiership team might be about right - to iron out the wrinkles in his game.
He will always been seen as a lesser option at Leinster - needs to move on.

former total

Leinster would never, in a million years, look to offload Madigan. The IRFU probably wouldn't let them anyway, unless it was to another province.

I dunno, with Sexton's national team responsibilities and his tendency to get injured fairly regularly, Madigan is going to get plenty of gametime. He might not be in any mad rush to leave.

LorMal

former total wrote: »

Leinster would never, in a million years, look to offload Madigan. The IRFU probably wouldn't let them anyway, unless it was to another province.

I dunno, with Sexton's national team responsibilities and his tendency to get injured fairly regularly, Madigan is going to get plenty of gametime. He might not be in any mad rush to leave.

Is he centrally contracted?

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

Leinster would never, in a million years, look to offload Madigan. The IRFU probably wouldn't let them anyway, unless it was to another province.

I dunno, with Sexton's national team responsibilities and his tendency to get injured fairly regularly, Madigan is going to get plenty of gametime. He might not be in any mad rush to leave.

The only situation where Leinster would look to offload Madigan might be if he was behind Marsh and Byrne at 10 and behind others in other positions. I agree apart from that it's very unlikely they'd look elsewhere.

former total

LorMal wrote: »

Is he centrally contracted?

No, but they are all dual contracted to their province and IRFU. Joe and IRFU aren't going to be too pleased if their second-choice outhalf is dumped by his province.

But again, Leinster would be mad to try to offload him, so it's not really an issue.