Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

rrpc

The thing people seem to forget about with Madigan is that he started a hell of a lot of games in Sexton's last year before going to Racing and did very well. So well in fact that there were a lot of people saying it wouldn't be a problem with Sexton gone.

In that season he started 25 games for Leinster plus 7 sub appearances, scored 9 tries and 188 points from the tee.

The following year: 14 + 12
Last year: 19 + 3

LorMal

former total wrote: »

No, but they are all dual contracted to their province and IRFU. Joe and IRFU aren't going to be too pleased if their second-choice outhalf is dumped by his province.

But again, Leinster would be mad to try to offload him, so it's not really an issue.

Thanks. Does that mean he cannot just choose to go elsewhere if he chooses to? I thought the IRFU only have a say on the centrally contracted guys (and hence the central contracts).
Sorry, I dont fully understand how these contracts work. I assume the Bosman ruling applies equally to Rugby as it does to soccer.

LorMal

rrpc wrote: »

The thing people seem to forget about with Madigan is that he started a hell of a lot of games in Sexton's last year before going to Racing and did very well. So well in fact that there were a lot of people saying it wouldn't be a problem with Sexton gone.

In that season he started 25 games for Leinster plus 7 sub appearances, scored 9 tries and 188 points from the tee.

The following year: 14 + 12
Last year: 19 + 3

Thanks for that - I clearly remembering thinking that Madigan would do great post Sexton and there was nothing to worry about. Then we got MOC'ed.

.ak

tbm wrote: »

I don't buy that. I'm not saying he should have been given an armchair ride, but he was immediately on the back foot with the new management. MOC came in and it was almost like he was trying to draw a line under the previous coaching ticket by straight out the gate making Gopps the starting 10. I don't think Mads was given a fair crack at it. He'd done his time being the Pro12 guy. I don't see what he did to lose the 10 jersey when MOC arrived. He was never really given it to lose.

Anyway, I think he'd thrive with a sustained period at 10 somewhere else.

So you think moc picked a 10 just to make a point, rather than picking one he thought was better?

Don't forget that gopperth was the better 10 in the warm ups. The papers were raving about him. Then he had a fantastic ge against the Scarlett's and Ospreys.

This is just nonsense IMO. Gopperth was first choice because he was the best choice. People need to stop blaming moc for madigans issues.

CatFromHue

There were also alot of people who were worried how we'd get on with him too post Sexton.

LorMal

.ak wrote: »

So you think moc picked a 10 just to make a point, rather than picking one he thought was better?

Don't forget that gopperth was the better 10 in the warm ups. The papers were raving about him. Then he had a fantastic ge against the Scarlett's and Ospreys.

This is just nonsense IMO. Gopperth was first choice because he was the best choice. People need to stop blaming moc for madigans issues.

I think MOC preferred Gopperth because he fitted with his gameplan and overall approach. Madigan was more imbued with the JS approach.

rrpc

CatFromHue wrote: »

There were also alot of people who were worried how we'd get on with him too post Sexton.

That's true, but I think worry is a strong word. Given that in the two seasons BM (Before MOC ) he'd scored 17 tries and started 8 European games (plus 6 subs)

former total

LorMal wrote: »

Thanks. [B[Does that mean he cannot just choose to go elsewhere if he chooses to?[/B] I thought the IRFU only have a say on the centrally contracted guys (and hence the central contracts).
Sorry, I dont fully understand how these contracts work. I assume the Bosman ruling applies equally to Rugby as it does to soccer.

Oh yeah, of course he can leave if he wants but it would be a serious blow to his international career.

Like, Madigan isn't perfect and I'm sure he would love to be first choice at his club but he has a serious stack of medals and his last game was starting for his country in a World Cup quarter final. He's doing OK for himself.

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

That's true, but I think worry is a strong word. Given that in the two seasons BM (Before MOC ) he'd scored 17 tries and started 8 European games (plus 6 subs)

Yeah but to be fair in Schmidt's last season he was starting at 15 and 12 so the relevance of those games is very easy to overstate.

At the end of the day he was just as shakey playing for Schmidt at 10 as he was the past two seasons. People like to blame MOC as they do for everything else but that Ospreys game when we got very badly beaten with Madigan at 10 and he played very poorly was just as bad as his shocking first half against Ulster last season. This isn't a new phenomenon.

LorMal

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah but to be fair in Schmidt's last season he was starting at 15 and 12 so the relevance of those games is very easy to overstate.

At the end of the day he was just as shakey playing for Schmidt at 10 as he was the past two seasons. People like to blame MOC as they do for everything else but that Ospreys game when we got very badly beaten with Madigan at 10 and he played very poorly was just as bad as his shocking first half against Ulster last season. This isn't a new phenomenon.

Look, MOC was a ****e coach for Leinster - full stop.
I accept Madigan was and is not reliable at 10. The question is, should he go elsewhere to improve? If he can, he should.

CatFromHue

rrpc wrote: »

That's true, but I think worry is a strong word. Given that in the two seasons BM (Before MOC ) he'd scored 17 tries and started 8 European games (plus 6 subs)

No I think worry is the correct word.

He gets a lot of good press as he scores tries but an outhalves job is to put people into space, have a good field kicking game, and create for others. He doesn't do that so much.

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

No I think worry is the correct word.

He gets a lot of good press as he scores tries but an outhalves job is to put people into space, have a good field kicking game, and create for others. He doesn't do that so much.

I remember ahead of the Gloucester game in Tallaght 3 years ago a few of us were talking about Mads and how he can flatter to deceive a bit. We spoke a good bit about his kicking game in particular. He then went out and proved us completely right that day. His kicking from hand was so hit and miss. Since then he's had a hell of a lot of game time at 10 under Joe (Leinster and Ireland) and MOC. A big complaint about MOC was to do with the fact that we kicked a lot. Has Madigans kicking from hand improved noticeably in the last 3 years? I don't think it has.

I was initially really impressed with his passing ability, but lately I've found it a huge frustration. He fires passes at people and when you compare that aspect of his game to someone like Jackson I think it's pretty obvious who has the edge there. Plus how often has he actually put someone through a gap? And how often has he taken it on himself? Didn't Drico say he was quite frustrating to play with because of how often he went himself?

On the front foot he can look really good. When he has time to make decisions and the team is going forward he is excellent. See Northampton 2 years ago. But then when he's on the back foot he's all at sea. A good 10 can manage a game in that scenario. I can't think of a single time, under Schmidt or MOC, where Mads has done that.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

molloyjh wrote: »

On the front foot he can look really good. When he has time to make decisions and the team is going forward he is excellent. See Northampton 2 years ago. But then when he's on the back foot he's all at sea. A good 10 can manage a game in that scenario. I can't think of a single time, under Schmidt or MOC, where Mads has done that.

If you look at he France match and then the Argentina match I think they back up what you're saying. He looked superb against France but even after 20 minutes, when he came on, the pace had already been established and although we weren't winning by a huge margin we were very much on the front foot. After 20 minutes in the Argentina game we were already losing by a big score and although we did well for a bit to get back to within touching distance we were constantly on the back foot and Madigan was never able to make any mark on the game. (to be fair to him everyone had a bad day against Argentina but it still illustrates your point)

rrpc

CatFromHue wrote: »

No I think worry is the correct word.

He gets a lot of good press as he scores tries but an outhalves job is to put people into space, have a good field kicking game, and create for others. He doesn't do that so much.

To be fair to Madigan, he is very good (as molloy says) on the front foot and does create space for others in those situations where he's running up to the line and delivering his trademark flat passes.

Under pressure he does struggle and tries to take too much on himself. Given a season working with Sexton again, he may be able to learn something and move up the curve. The same can be said for Marsh and Byrne, so it's something we may have to wait and see as the season develops.

I don't think it would be in his interest to leave now. He's had quite a long stint with Ireland as well and he may jeopardise that with a move that could leave him with less time for Ireland camps.

ssaye2

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/14207.php#.Vjo8qbfhDct


Leinster 'A' team v Connacht Eagles, Thursday, 5th November, Donnybrook, Interprovincial friendly (KO 5pm)

15. Adam Byrne
14. Rory O'Loughlin
13. Tom Farrell
12. Tom Daly
11. Darragh Fanning
10. Ross Byrne
9. Charlie Rock
1. Peter Dooley
2. Sean McNulty
3. Michael Bent
4. Tadhg Beirne
5. David O'Connor
6. Josh Murphy
7. Peadar Timmins CAPTAIN
8. Tony Ryan

Replacements

16. Oisin Heffernan
17. Jeremy Loughman
18. Royce Burke-Flynn
19. Max Deegan
20. Will Connors
21. Joey Carbery
22. Harrison Brewer
23. Ian Fitzpatrick

CatFromHue

rrpc wrote: »

To be fair to Madigan, he is very good (as molloy says) on the front foot and does create space for others in those situations where he's running up to the line and delivering his trademark flat passes.

Under pressure he does struggle and tries to take too much on himself. Given a season working with Sexton again, he may be able to learn something and move up the curve. The same can be said for Marsh and Byrne, so it's something we may have to wait and see as the season develops.

I don't think it would be in his interest to leave now. He's had quite a long stint with Ireland as well and he may jeopardise that with a move that could leave him with less time for Ireland camps.

At the end of the season Sexton will have just gone 31 and Madigan will be 27. I can see Sexton having a few more seasons in him so I think at the end of the season it would be a good time for Madigan to move if he wants to be first choice.

wp_rathead

ssaye2 wrote: »

16. Oisin Heffernan

Is Oisin being converted to a Hooker

errlloyd

I keep forgetting about lads like Carberry and Crosbie knocking around. The absolute number 10 traffic jam.

connachta

errlloyd wrote: »

I keep forgetting about lads like Carberry and Crosbie knocking around. The absolute number 10 traffic jam.

That's great, Connacht needs one for next year:P

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

You don't need high level games to develop. Marsh is 3 years younger than Mads and nowhere near as experienced. I wouldn't be giving up hope on him learning his trade at Pro12 level just yet. After all it's his first season at senior level. You don't start your career as the finished article.

Mads on the other hand has had 4-5 seasons to develop his game and we've seen relatively little development in that time. I wouldn't give up on him just yet, but while Marsh had time on his side Mads very much doesn't.

I'm not saying he should be at a higher level than Madigan, just that I see a lot of the same weakness's in his game. Though to be fair Madigan 3 years ago looked like a far better prospect than Marsh does now. I think the level of analysis that goes into games and decision making at senior level, is massively different to what Marsh would be getting playing for the A's or in AIL and that would make a difference. Though of course that's just an opinion from the outside, as I don't really know the levels of analysis players would get at AIL/A's level.

aimee1

gopperth got 3 week ban

CatFromHue

so that's him out of the HEC game then

molloyjh

Some contradictory stuff in the media about Lukey. Some saying he should be back for Wasps, others saying he's a serious doubt. Based on the quotes I've seen from Leo though it seems to all be speculation. There isn't any structural damage apparently so at least that's good news.

http://www.98fm.com/Luke-Fitzgerald-Injury-Worries-Ease

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/leo-cullen-not-taking-any-risks-with-luke-fitzgerald-1.2417437

It's Luke.

He'll be out.

rrpc

molloyjh wrote: »

Some contradictory stuff in the media about Lukey. Some saying he should be back for Wasps, others saying he's a serious doubt. Based on the quotes I've seen from Leo though it seems to all be speculation. There isn't any structural damage apparently so at least that's good news.

http://www.98fm.com/Luke-Fitzgerald-Injury-Worries-Ease

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/leo-cullen-not-taking-any-risks-with-luke-fitzgerald-1.2417437

Great to see Leo talking up the young players. You can see how enthusiastic he is about them and what they represent for the future.

errlloyd

Isa seems pretty happy with his choice.

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

Some contradictory stuff in the media about Lukey. Some saying he should be back for Wasps, others saying he's a serious doubt. Based on the quotes I've seen from Leo though it seems to all be speculation. There isn't any structural damage apparently so at least that's good news.

http://www.98fm.com/Luke-Fitzgerald-Injury-Worries-Ease

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/leo-cullen-not-taking-any-risks-with-luke-fitzgerald-1.2417437

Uh oh, we've been down this road before with Luke. A something too soon...

The Pheasant2

Hearing whispers of Ringrose starting 13

I'd be delighted to see it!

molloyjh

rrpc wrote: »

Great to see Leo talking up the young players. You can see how enthusiastic he is about them and what they represent for the future.

Yeah what he says about Ringrose is impressive.

"Garry was man of the match in his last outing at the RDS and he has taken every opportunity he can to perform.

Everything he has done off the field has been spot on as well. He’s just excited to be around all the internationals and to play alongside them.

He took me completely by surprise when I got here in the amount of work he does off the field for a young guy. He has never been fazed between swapping between 12, 13 and the wing.

Even in training he just happily puts his head down and goes and reviews training and gets on with the job the next day. He’s going to be a world-class player but he’s taking it a week at a time because he knows that’s as far as he wants to look ahead.”

rrpc

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah what he says about Ringrose is impressive.

Devin Toner talking about training in The 42.

“From what I’ve seen. training is really organised. We’re told exactly how long we’re going to be on the pitch for and that’s followed to a tee.

“Sessions are really short and sharp and we’re getting through a lot of work.”

That can sound like an unimportant factor in the grand scheme of things, but anyone who could be found hanging around Leinster post-training midweek press conferences over the last two seasons would anecdotally tell you that start times were movable feasts. 15 minutes one day, 25 another… never anything worth complaining about, but from a players’ point of view, the sense that a session is dragging on a bit can’t help confidence.