Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

Triumvirate

Interested Observer wrote: »

So what was the story with Luke McGrath not getting of the bench tonight? Very disappointing really, MOC-esque.

He's not trusted, clearly.

It might be just that he's not as good as people hoped he would become. We can continue to say "He's young, he has so much potential, he needs to be given game time" for only so long. He turns 23 this winter. If he hasn't stepped into a more consistently quality role by the end of the 6N, I'd wonder if he ever will.

Tox56

Triumvirate wrote: »

He's not trusted, clearly.

It might be just that he's not as good as people hoped he would become. We can continue to say "He's young, he has so much potential, he needs to be given game time" for only so long. He turns 23 this winter. If he hasn't stepped into a more consistently quality role by the end of the 6N, I'd wonder if he ever will.

Well I mean this season so far he's played well in the gametime he's had, it's not like a Brendan Macken situation where he's getting opportunities and not taking them

Triumvirate

I can only assume that Dominic Ryan is looking sensational in training as his showings on the pitch are dreadful. The pop to the Scarlets player from the ruck when we were looking like we'd a good shot at a try was particularly bad. Flankers are supposed to all round players, aware of what's happening around them; it was brutal.

He has no business being close to a Leinster 23 with people now back and available.

irishbucsfan

McGrath has had some excellent games this season. He was great against Cardiff for example. I just can't believe that Boss is genuinely ahead of him. I expect to see him on the bench next weekend.

Triumvirate

irishbucsfan wrote: »

McGrath has had some excellent games this season. He was great against Cardiff for example. I just can't believe that Boss is genuinely ahead of him. I expect to see him on the bench next weekend.

He was but it's worth noting that we had our noses in front but as soon as Cardiff came back at us, we whipped McGrath off the field.

Interested Observer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

McGrath has had some excellent games this season. He was great against Cardiff for example. I just can't believe that Boss is genuinely ahead of him. I expect to see him on the bench next weekend.

I couldn't watch the match last night so I'm talking blind here but I just can't fathom why he'd be left sitting on the bench if he's being considered for next week. He didn't start last week either so it's not as if he's some huge work load and needs a rest. I assume Sexton went to 10 at some point, if anything that suggests to me that Cullen wanted Boss and Sexton to play a bit together because they're going to end up playing together next week.

Very disappointing if this is the case. Cullen has done a lot of good so far but this would be so regressive.

former total

At some point, people are going to have to accept that either Boss is not as bad as they think, or that the alternative is even worse.

former total

former total wrote: »

At some point, people are going to have to accept that either Boss is not as bad as they think, or that the alternative is even worse.

That kind of sense has no place around here.

Triumvirate

former total wrote: »

At some point, people are going to have to accept that either Boss is not as bad as they think, or that the alternative is even worse.

A little from column A, a little from column B.

When Reddan and Boss finish up, we're signing a scrum half because the other options are not up to top end club rugby.

blackcard

Triumvirate wrote: »

He's not trusted, clearly.

It might be just that he's not as good as people hoped he would become. We can continue to say "He's young, he has so much potential, he needs to be given game time" for only so long. He turns 23 this winter. If he hasn't stepped into a more consistently quality role by the end of the 6N, I'd wonder if he ever will.

So he is 22. What age was Sexton before he stepped up?

Triumvirate

blackcard wrote: »

So he is 22. What age was Sexton before he stepped up?

Sexton won the HEC at 23. He was starting outhalf in a Magners League winning campaign at 22. He had shown infinitely more at this point. Not even comparable.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Maybe the fact that the game was very tight right up to the end and there were other changes forced in the backs, as well as people being moved around, is why McGrath didn't get on.

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Maybe the fact that the game was very tight right up to the end and there were other changes forced in the backs, as well as people being moved around, is why McGrath didn't get on.

That and having cover for another potential injury would explain it to me tbh. Not sure we can read any more into it.

irishbucsfan

Triumvirate wrote: »

Sexton won the HEC at 23. He was starting outhalf in a Magners League winning campaign at 22. He had shown infinitely more at this point. Not even comparable.

I would say it's pretty comparable. Sexton wasn't a starting outhalf when he wont the HEC until injury forced it upon him.

Instead he spent the majority of the year on the becnh (when not playing for Mary's) and came on in leaps and bounds in that role deputising for Contepomi. That's the position I'd expect to see McGrath in this year.

Triumvirate

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would say it's pretty comparable. Sexton wasn't a starting outhalf when he wont the HEC until injury forced it upon him.

Instead he spent the majority of the year on the becnh (when not playing for Mary's) and came on in leaps and bounds in that role deputising for Contepomi. That's the position I'd expect to see McGrath in this year.

That's the position we'd ideally like to see McGrath in and deliver in.

But I don't think I'm wrong when I say that if Reddan broke his leg tomorrow, Boss would start the big games.

Sexton wasn't the first choice outhalf but he was seen as a viable option to move into the role. When he started the 2008 league winning campaign, it wasn't Contepomi that was out injured but D'Arcy. They rejigged the back line to bring Sexton in despite having options like moving Horgan or Fitzgerald to 12 (both started games for Ireland at 12 that year) or bringing Warner or Berne into the side in a straight swap.

In 2008/09, he obviously lost form for a few months but he was certainly trusted within the set up and was back into the HEC set up once he regained that form.

I don't think Luke McGrath's position and role in the squad is currently anywhere near the one that Sexton had at the end of the 2007/08 season (the exact age McGrath is at now).

Gearzbox123

After the opening Pro 12 games on current form and players showing up with massive couple of games coming up id be going for
1McGrath 2 Cronin 3 Moore 4 McCarthy 5 Toner 6 Ruddock 7O'Brien 8 Heaslip
9 Reddan 10 Sexton 11 D Kearney 12 Fitz (if fit) 13 Teo (again if fit) 14 McFadden 15 Isa
Bench
16 Strauss 17 Healy 18 Furlong 19 Conan 20 murphy 21 McGrath 22 Reid 23 Madigan

I'd go 2 back rowers, seemed to work pretty well for NZ at the World Cup!!!!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Gearzbox123 wrote: »

After the opening Pro 12 games on current form and players showing up with massive couple of games coming up id be going for
1McGrath 2 Cronin 3 Moore 4 McCarthy 5 Toner 6 Ruddock 7O'Brien 8 Heaslip
9 Reddan 10 Sexton 11 D Kearney 12 Fitz (if fit) 13 Teo (again if fit) 14 McFadden 15 Isa
Bench
16 Strauss 17 Healy 18 Furlong 19 Conan 20 murphy 21 McGrath 22 Reid 23 Madigan

I'd go 2 back rowers, seemed to work pretty well for NZ at the World Cup!!!!

Based on current form you go with Fitzgerald at 12? You'll need to explain that logic to me.

Gearzbox123

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Based on current form you go with Fitzgerald at 12? You'll need to explain that logic to me.

He showed up pretty well at 12 during the World Cup both against Canada and played pretty well against Argentina, maybe not in the centre but created try for Jordi Murphy thru a midfield burst and offload
Currently miles ahead defensively of other options in the squad

irishbucsfan

Triumvirate wrote: »

I don't think Luke McGrath's position and role in the squad is currently anywhere near the one that Sexton had at the end of the 2007/08 season (the exact age McGrath is at now).

When Reddan was gone McGrath was starting games for us ahead of Boss. When Reddan came back we saw McGrath on the bench. If Reddan's season ended tomorrow I think we'd see them work hard to integrate McGrath into a partnership with Sexton and have him become 1st choice. Maybe not right away because I'd imagine Sexton/McGrath have had limited time together.

Sexton was 2nd choice at 10 back then. The comparison doesn't quite work because Contepomi was ann international 12 so it made sense to move him to 12 instead of Fitzgerald/Horgan, we had a massive lack of depth back then, who was next in line on the wing, Gary Brown or Simon Keogh?.

Regardless of that I think McGrath has played well enough to be 2nd choice at 9. He should absolutely be 2nd choice at 9 for two important reasons, the first that he's playing better than Boss and the second being that it's likely one or both of our other scrum halves may retire at the end of the season anyway.

Tox56

former total wrote: »

At some point, people are going to have to accept that either Boss is not as bad as they think, or that the alternative is even worse.

But its not like this is all pure speculation on our part, both have played a decent amount this season and there is plenty of evidence for us to form our own opinions on their form/ability. Boss isnt that bad, but hes 35 years old, and McGrath has looked comfortable in the games he has played.

The treatment of him has always baffled me, we have two 35 year old scrumhalves and literally 0 other options coming through in that position outside McGrath, you would think even if he wasnt setting the place alight we'd be desperate to give him a run in the team to see if he can hack it before we run out of time with the other two. As it has happened hes played pretty well this season when he does get the chance but his gametime is still inconsistent and there does seem to be a lack of faith that I just cant understand. Everyone falls back on "he musnt be impressing in training" to justify the apparent lack of faith, but if he manages to be terrible in training and then deliver the performances in matches that he has this season then he must have an incredible mindset of delivering when it matters. Even if you think theres nothing between the quality of performances McGrath and Boss have shown this season, surely McGrath is the one who should be getting gametime whenever possible. In fairness we don't know what Cullen's intentions are with McGrath yet, but based on what has happened so far I'm worried that it wont be much different than last season

Triumvirate

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sexton was 2nd choice at 10 back then. The comparison doesn't quite work because Contepomi was ann international 12 so it made sense to move him to 12 instead of Fitzgerald/Horgan, we had a massive lack of depth back then, who was next in line on the wing, Gary Brown or Simon Keogh?.

We had very solid depth in the back division back then. Dempsey, Rob Kearney, Fitzgerald and Horgan were fighting it out for the back 3 spots. After that we go into the Gary Brown, Fionn Carr, McFadden etc.

irishbucsfan

Triumvirate wrote: »

We had very solid depth in the back division back then. Dempsey, Rob Kearney, Fitzgerald and Horgan were fighting it out for the back 3 spots. After that we go into the Gary Brown, Fionn Carr, McFadden etc.

Not really though. Brown was battling injury. McFadden was barely involved with the senior squad. Fionn Carr only played once, in the traditional annual Cheika throwaway game, he played for Blackrock all year. Our options in midfield in the absence of D'Arcy were particularly bare, hence us bringing in Mick Berne who was the deputy there (i think that was 07/08). It still doesn't quite map onto the current situation at scrum half either way.

Triumvirate

The wider group are all beside the point. If you moved Horgan or Fitz, Rob Kearney would be on the wing with Dempsey at 15.

Sexton, Fitz, Contepomi, BOD, Horgan, Kearney
or
Contepomi, Fitz, Horgan, BOD, Kearney, Dempsey

Sexton got his game rather than Cheika going with the second option which was a very strong one. For him to be held in that esteem within the squad puts him on a totally different level to where McGrath is viewed now. I don't see how it's even close.

irishbucsfan

Triumvirate wrote: »

The wider group are all beside the point. If you moved Horgan or Fitz, Rob Kearney would be on the wing with Dempsey at 15.

Sexton, Fitz, Contepomi, BOD, Horgan, Kearney
or
Contepomi, Fitz, Horgan, BOD, Kearney, Dempsey

Sexton got his game rather than Cheika going with the second option which was a very strong one. For him to be held in that esteem within the squad puts him on a totally different level to where McGrath is viewed now. I don't see how it's even close.

Actually that's not the team we went with. Fitzgerald was on the bench and Kearney was on the left wing. Kearney wasn't really playing full back until after Bradley's summer tour. Fitzgerald was a teenager at the time and spent most of his time on the bench. Horgan wasn't playing at 12 whatsoever then, that experiment was over by that season. Our 12s were D'Arcy/Contepomi/Berne/Warner.

I think McGrath is actually around the same level Sexton was then. Sexton didn't play in the H Cup that year for example and was sharing time with Warner at 10 in the early stages of the season until he established himself. If Boss is Warner in this example then I think it's pretty close.

Tox56

Triumvirate wrote: »

The wider group are all beside the point. If you moved Horgan or Fitz, Rob Kearney would be on the wing with Dempsey at 15.

Sexton, Fitz, Contepomi, BOD, Horgan, Kearney
or
Contepomi, Fitz, Horgan, BOD, Kearney, Dempsey

Sexton got his game rather than Cheika going with the second option which was a very strong one. For him to be held in that esteem within the squad puts him on a totally different level to where McGrath is viewed now. I don't see how it's even close.

In Sexton's season as a 22 year old he made his first couple of H Cup appearances off the bench and started a good number of league games, and really, thats what McGrath should be getting this season as a 22 year old, it would be his next logical progression and I'd be extremely frustrated if that doesnt happen. I dont think theres a massive gulf in where they were at comparable stages of their development

shuffol

Seem to remember Simon Keogh featuring a fair bit on the wing that season, hardly comparable to our depth now where we've a multi capped Springbok that will be lucky to make the bench.

It's a bit of a strange argument anyway, even if McGrath was slightly behind where Sexton was at his age, does it actually mean anything?

molloyjh

Tox56 wrote: »

But its not like this is all pure speculation on our part, both have played a decent amount this season and there is plenty of evidence for us to form our own opinions on their form/ability. Boss isnt that bad, but hes 35 years old, and McGrath has looked comfortable in the games he has played.

The treatment of him has always baffled me, we have two 35 year old scrumhalves and literally 0 other options coming through in that position outside McGrath, you would think even if he wasnt setting the place alight we'd be desperate to give him a run in the team to see if he can hack it before we run out of time with the other two. As it has happened hes played pretty well this season when he does get the chance but his gametime is still inconsistent and there does seem to be a lack of faith that I just cant understand. Everyone falls back on "he musnt be impressing in training" to justify the apparent lack of faith, but if he manages to be terrible in training and then deliver the performances in matches that he has this season then he must have an incredible mindset of delivering when it matters. Even if you think theres nothing between the quality of performances McGrath and Boss have shown this season, surely McGrath is the one who should be getting gametime whenever possible. In fairness we don't know what Cullen's intentions are with McGrath yet, but based on what has happened so far I'm worried that it wont be much different than last season

In fairness he's started more games and played more minutes than Boss this season as it is and is fast catching up on last season (3 starts, 222 minutes compared to last seasons 4 starts, 374 minutes). Yesterday was the only game he didn't play in so far this season and he was in the 23. I don't think we need to worry about anything there tbh.

Tox56

molloyjh wrote: »

In fairness he's started more games and played more minutes than Boss this season as it is and is fast catching up on last season (3 starts, 222 minutes compared to last seasons 4 starts, 374 minutes). Yesterday was the only game he didn't play in so far this season and he was in the 23. I don't think we need to worry about anything there tbh.

This is true and as I say I dont know exactly what Cullen has planned, but it seems ominous to me that Boss started yesterday in the first place, the last game before Europe, and then the fact McGrath didnt come off the bench at all, although maybe can be attributed to other factors, still doesnt seem like a great sign either.

The Parish King

How did Ringrose get on yesterday? I only saw bits of the game, but from what I did see he wasn't great for their try and relatively quiet otherwise although it was a shame he was shifted from 13.

flouncer

molloyjh wrote: »

Sorry what was that!? A reactionary nonsense post delivered prematurely?

Leinster got away with it. It was touch and go. No Te'o, no reid no sexton starting against the pro12 leaders. I just was suggesting that you were playing with fire on your home ground. I like being premature. No point in expressing same opinion after the horse has bolted.Thats just bitter waffle.