Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VI: End of the MOC [Revenge of the STH]

irishbucsfan

McFadden hasn't played the position for over 4 years I believe (according to WoC on Twitter). The last time he played there was for Ireland actually (and we all know what happened that day)

He's a big weakness in the team if he plays anything like he did at center previously. Even if he plays like he did at 12 where he was still a weakness defensively. Whatever about him starting life in the position, there's a reason he hasn't been looked at there again (whether by Schmidt or MOC) despite us having barely any options there over recent years. Not even during that period when Te'o arrived and was injured immediately, we brought in Tuqiri rather than use him there.

The only option that makes sense to me would have been Ringrose. He's more likely to succeed there as far as I'm concerned and even if he doesn't at least we can turn a negative into a positive by getting more experience for a guy who is likely going to be able to put it to use in the future rather than a guy who is in all likelihood never going to play there for us again. If Fergus struggles we get absolutely nothing out of it in the long term.

LostArt

irishbucsfan wrote: »

McFadden hasn't played the position for over 4 years I believe (according to WoC on Twitter). The last time he played there was for Ireland actually (and we all know what happened that day)
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He played there last season v Ospreys. Won 18-12.

former total

McFadden played 13 against Argentina last summer.

Ringrose will get his chance, this was not the game to throw him in.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

McFadden hasn't played the position for over 4 years I believe (according to WoC on Twitter). The last time he played there was for Ireland actually (and we all know what happened that day)

He's a big weakness in the team if he plays anything like he did at center previously. Even if he plays like he did at 12 where he was still a weakness defensively. Whatever about him starting life in the position, there's a reason he hasn't been looked at there again (whether by Schmidt or MOC) despite us having barely any options there over recent years. Not even during that period when Te'o arrived and was injured immediately, we brought in Tuqiri rather than use him there.

The only option that makes sense to me would have been Ringrose. He's more likely to succeed there as far as I'm concerned and even if he doesn't at least we can turn a negative into a positive by getting more experience for a guy who is likely going to be able to put it to use in the future rather than a guy who is in all likelihood never going to play there for us again. If Fergus struggles we get absolutely nothing out of it in the long term.

Tuqiri wasn't here when Te'o was. Last season was Te'os first season for Leinster, Tuqiri was at Leinster the previous season for the first few months. And did Tuqiri play at 13 outside that game against Munster? I don't remember him doing so. And I think him playing there was more MOCs (misguided) belief in Lote than a lack of faith in Ferg. Other than that when did we have a situation when Drico, Darce, Te'o and Fitz were all missing and Ferg was available?

Fergs selection obviously isn't a long term decision. It's a short term one given the situation we find ourselves in. Ferg has time at 13 at this level and above it, Ringrose doesn't have time in any position at this level.

molloyjh

LostArt wrote: »

He played there last season v Ospreys. Won 18-12.

Played the full 80 too even though Darce was available (and came on at halftime at 12).

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Tuqiri wasn't here when Te'o was. Last season was Te'os first season for Leinster, Tuqiri was at Leinster the previous season for the first few months. And did Tuqiri play at 13 outside that game against Munster? I don't remember him doing so. And I think him playing there was more MOCs (misguided) belief in Lote than a lack of faith in Ferg. Other than that when did we have a situation when Drico, Darce, Te'o and Fitz were all missing and Ferg was available?

Fergs selection obviously isn't a long term decision. It's a short term one given the situation we find ourselves in. Ferg has time at 13 at this level and above it, Ringrose doesn't have time in any position at this level.

Yeah you're right my memory failed me. Thought Tuqiri was last season.

There's an inherent conservatism that grips some people at times and it's hard to understand. When Jan Serfontein was in the same position after his great JWC campaign the Bulls had no problem trusting him in Super Rugby. If McFadden was better I could understand it. Or if McFadden wasn't a considerably better option than the guy we're starting on the right wing, his best position, I could understand. Instead we're playing McFadden in his weakest position, losing him from the wing to replace him with Kirchner and missing an opportunity to give great experience to a really special young talent. Its a huge missed opportunity for very little reward.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah you're right my memory failed me. Thought Tuqiri was last season.

There's an inherent conservatism that grips some people at times and it's hard to understand. When Jan Serfontein was in the same position after his great JWC campaign the Bulls had no problem trusting him in Super Rugby. If McFadden was better I could understand it. Or if McFadden wasn't a considerably better option than the guy we're starting on the right wing, his best position, I could understand. Instead we're playing McFadden in his weakest position, losing him from the wing to replace him with Kirchner and missing an opportunity to give great experience to a really special young talent. Its a huge missed opportunity for very little reward.

As I said before if the circumstances were different I'd agree. But given this 16 game run our home games are just so important I think the conservative option is the best one, especially when we have Reid at 12. If we had a stronger, more experienced 12 then maybe I'd back Ringrose. But the way the chips have fallen for this the conservatism is warranted I feel.

molloyjh

I see the Saints fans are going to try and get La Marseilles sung at the game tonight. Don't see something like that working in the RDS with so few people actually knowing the words. Would a rendition of Allez les Bleus after the minutes silence be worth a shot do people think?

Felexicon

irishbucsfan wrote:

The only option that makes sense to me would have been Ringrose. He's more likely to succeed there as far as I'm concerned and even if he doesn't at least we can turn a negative into a positive by getting more experience for a guy who is likely going to be able to put it to use in the future rather than a guy who is in all likelihood never going to play there for us again. If Fergus struggles we get absolutely nothing out of it in the long term.

But you have to look at the flip side when taking the future in to account too. What if Ringrose starts tomorrow and has a nightmare. There's no telling what affect that can have on a young player mentally. You could set him back massively in his progression.
There will come a time when he will have to sink or swim but tomorrow is not that time

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

As I said before if the circumstances were different I'd agree. But given this 16 game run our home games are just so important I think the conservative option is the best one, especially when we have Reid at 12. If we had a stronger, more experienced 12 then maybe I'd back Ringrose. But the way the chips have fallen for this the conservatism is warranted I feel.

A tough run of games surely would be helped by us producing more options not being overly reliant on fewer.

Regardless if you're hoping this will help us defensively then I don't understand that either. McFadden's defense was his biggest issue when he was at 13 and then 12 (he even improved his distribution which was an issue). Kirchner was found out of position a few times last weekend as well.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A tough run of games surely would be helped by us producing more options not being overly reliant on fewer.

Regardless if you're hoping this will help us defensively then I don't understand that either. McFadden's defense was his biggest issue when he was at 13 and then 12 (he even improved his distribution which was an issue). Kirchner was found out of position a few times last weekend as well.

I'm well aware of the risks, although I do feel you're overstating Fergs defensive issues a bit. His main issues in midfield is that he simply isn't creative, either in his own play or for others. It's his attacking game that would worry me not his defensive game. I have massive concerns over Kirchner though. I hope he's showing up well in training this week and that last week was just rustiness.

Maybe a middle ground might have worked? Start Ringrose on the wing and bring him in at 13 going forward but move Ferg in there defensively? But that would just be messy I suppose.

Peregrine

As mentioned above, McFadden started at 13 against Ospreys last year.

He also played 20mins at 13 for Leinster against Cardiff in January with Noel Reid at 12.

vienne86

Peregrine wrote: »

As mentioned above, McFadden started at 13 against Ospreys last year.

He also played 20mins at 13 for Leinster against Cardiff in January with Noel Reid at 12.

My reading of Leo's comments are that he wanted Ferg in midfield for this match because of his experience. He should be solid enough in defence, and I think that's what is needed. I hope Ringrose gets a decent run tomorrow too.

RichieRich89

Reid's a poor tackler, and McFadden has defended poorly when playing outside centre in the past. McFadden also doesn't really have the skill and vision to be effective in attack at 13. I think I'd have gone for 12 McFadden, 13 Ringrose

hogandrew

RichieRich89 wrote: »

Reid's a poor tackler, and McFadden has defended poorly when playing outside centre in the past. McFadden also doesn't really have the skill and vision to be effective in attack at 13. I think I'd have gone for 12 McFadden, 13 Ringrose

I'd prefer that too but then an injury on say the wing could cause a lot of disruption. You would have to move ringrose to wing, McFadden to second centre and put in Reid.

Ringrose and madigan can cover all positions between them and ringrose would be more suited to making an impact and better option off the bench if Leinster end up having to chase the game.

former total

I'm baffled as to where this notion has come from, that McFadden will be weak in defence.

I really hope it's not the Wales game from 2012.

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

I'm baffled as to where this notion has come from, that McFadden will be weak in defence.

I really hope it's not the Wales game from 2012.

Me too. He hasn't been in the past. Was there a tackle he missed when he had to come in on Darcys man a while back that people are basing this on? I've a vague recollection of something like that happening. But that one was Darce getting caught out and Ferg being in a no-win position. He's not at Dricos level there obviously but who is? He makes his tackles and is generally in the right place. With Reid at 12 we need to be sure we can rely on that at 13. We can hope for it from Ringrose but we've far more certainty of it from Ferg.

EDIT: did you add that line about the Wales game after posting or did I not read the post in full. Either way I think that's the game I was thinking of.

RichieRich89

former total wrote: »

I'm baffled as to where this notion has come from, that McFadden will be weak in defence.

I really hope it's not the Wales game from 2012.

He's a strong tackler but I wouldn't have too much confidence in his ability to read a situation and position himself optimally

former total

molloyjh wrote: »

Me too. He hasn't been in the past. Was there a tackle he missed when he had to come in on Darcys man a while back that people are basing this on? I've a vague recollection of something like that happening. But that one was Darce getting caught out and Ferg being in a no-win position. He's not at Dricos level there obviously but who is? He makes his tackles and is generally in the right place. With Reid at 12 we need to be sure we can rely on that at 13. We can hope for it from Ringrose but we've far more certainty of it from Ferg.

EDIT: did you add that line about the Wales game after posting or did I not read the post in full. Either way I think that's the game I was thinking of.

Ninja edit, sorry

Like, if we playing some PRO12 level plodder ahead of Ringrose I'd understand the frustration, but McFadden is anything but.

Flipper22

molloyjh wrote: »

Me too. He hasn't been in the past. Was there a tackle he missed when he had to come in on Darcys man a while back that people are basing this on? I've a vague recollection of something like that happening. But that one was Darce getting caught out and Ferg being in a no-win position. He's not at Dricos level there obviously but who is? He makes his tackles and is generally in the right place. With Reid at 12 we need to be sure we can rely on that at 13. We can hope for it from Ringrose but we've far more certainty of it from Ferg.

EDIT: did you add that line about the Wales game after posting or did I not read the post in full. Either way I think that's the game I was thinking of.

It wasn't his man ( though North moved laterally across iirc) but he still missed the tackle badly and it led to a try.

But yeah, obviously one incident doesn't make him a bad defender.

irishbucsfan

It's obviously not based on one missed tackle. It's based on us consistently losing ground in midfield when he was playing center for us because the line shape was all over the place.

Hagz

The 'A' team won anyway. 12-9. No tries.

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

Ninja edit, sorry

Like, if we playing some PRO12 level plodder ahead of Ringrose I'd understand the frustration, but McFadden is anything but.

On the right wing he's anything but. On the right wing I'm not sure Kirchner is, same with midfield for Ferg.

awec

If I wake up tomorrow and the weather is as crap as it is now I probably won't even bother going to this match. There'll be no rugby on show anyway.

Redgirl82

awec wrote: »

If I wake up tomorrow and the weather is as crap as it is now I probably won't even bother going to this match. There'll be no rugby on show anyway.

The weather is worse.....

scarfs, hats, full ski gear is been taken out at the moment

vienne86

Redgirl82 wrote: »

The weather is worse.....

scarfs, hats, full ski gear is been taken out at the moment

Nah - rain is stopping. It'l be grand by lunchtime. It's not cold either, but it's blowing a gale.

Dravokivich

Redgirl82 wrote: »

The weather is worse.....

scarfs, hats, full ski gear is been taken out at the moment

Odd. In d22,right now its typical D4 weather...

errlloyd

****,

Nacewa is out, Madigan is starting 15.

Dont understand why it's not Zane with RR in. Losing confidence fast.

sydthebeat

Balls....

Ten man boring game please

Can I just say that before the Triviso match, someone commented how we'd come through the world cup with no injuries and had a fit squad moving towards our first euro game.

Since this post Isa, Fitz, T'eo, Kearney have all been ruled out. Can we find this poster and sacrifice him / her to the one true mocker god.